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Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while.
On January 31 2012 14:48 Azzur wrote:
This is just a very standard 1-rax FE into 3-rax into factory-starport. This is just the most standard TvP build and hardly deserves a "Grobyc" name on it.
Other variations of the 1-rax FE include:
1-rax FE into 3-rax ghost
1-rax FE into 3-rax ebay
1-rax FE into double refinery tech
etc.
So give me a link to a guide on this variation? I'd like to see it hit at the same timing with the same amount of units and same infrastructure (2 reactors, 1 tech lab, reactor medivacs, +1/+1 coming @ 10 minutes). Thanks for the not so constructive feedback.
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New build order demo replayed has been posted, along with a new intro video based off it (still processing on youtube, should take 5-15 minutes). I'm feeling much better about this updated version. You were right about the double Ebays, I had to delay them a decent amount, although +1/+1 still starts at just past the 10 minute mark with double medivac production, and stim + combat shields, which I consider moderately fast for TvP.
Now I mostly need to look at playing some good games with the refined version which I will post as they come, thanks for all the feedback.
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How do you support so fast medivacs + upgrades? I think that you either have to cut SCVs or army production to support that.
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The only problem I see with this build is if they get out collus you're going to be too marine heavy. Also the only deviation I see in this build from the standard 1rax FE is that instead of 2 tech lab/1 reactor you go for 1 tech lab/2 reactor. Am I wrong?
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A timing I find helpful is if the scv which makes the barracks, makes the 2nd supply depot immediately after, if you rally it to the expansion minerals (after the depot) when it finishes mining a stack of minerals it will have the 400 for the command centre. This saves scv travel time and helps optimise. You ought to mention you need a bunker either directly before or after the 2nd and 3rd rax otherwise stalker harass will do way too much damage.
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I am concerned that you will die to almost any 1base all-in because of the low number of rax and the amount of time the rax are tied up building so many add ons. That said I think it should set you up for a nice timing with the first 2 medivacs.
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On January 31 2012 21:00 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
How do you support so fast medivacs + upgrades? I think that you either have to cut SCVs or army production to support that.
It's possible, check the replay. I never cut SCVs the whole game and my Barrack were idle no more than 5% of the time.
On January 31 2012 22:28 BigJoe wrote:
The only problem I see with this build is if they get out collus you're going to be too marine heavy. Also the only deviation I see in this build from the standard 1rax FE is that instead of 2 tech lab/1 reactor you go for 1 tech lab/2 reactor. Am I wrong?
Yes, it is very marine heavy. It plays a very aggressive style meant to pick apart the Protoss and trade armies in small-medium engagements. It hits before Protoss will have any more than 1 Colossus and no thermal lance, so I think at that point you can drop a tech lab on your factory and swap it with one of the reactored Barracks to go more Marauder heavy. Looking at Liquipedia's 1 rax FE (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE), it doesn't even go in to detail past the 21 supply mark where you make 2 more Barracks, so unless I'm missing something, I don't have much to compare to. One of the main features of the build is the fast double reactors, combat shields timings, and upgrades to follow, but of course it is similar to other 1 Rax FEs other than that. More reactors means more Marines, and while they aren't amazing against Colossus, I think it works out just fine if you are very aggressive and do a half decent job microing. Considering he would potentially only have 1 Colossus without range, you have plenty of time to adapt and add tech labs.
On January 31 2012 23:50 statikg wrote:
I am concerned that you will die to almost any 1base all-in because of the low number of rax and the amount of time the rax are tied up building so many add ons. That said I think it should set you up for a nice timing with the first 2 medivacs.
Perhaps it's weak, but I think you should be able to determine if he is going 1 base allin in advance. The game plan changes completely if he hasn't expanded. At that point you would keep your second orbital in your main and make 2 bunkers, and cancel addons for more Marines early.
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On February 01 2012 00:31 Grobyc wrote:
Yes, it is very marine heavy. It plays a very aggressive style meant to pick apart the Protoss and trade armies in small-medium engagements. It hits before Protoss will have any more than 1 Colossus and no thermal lance, so I think at that point you can drop a tech lab on your factory and swap it with one of the reactored Barracks to go more Marauder heavy. Looking at Liquipedia's 1 rax FE (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE), it doesn't even go in to detail past the 21 supply mark where you make 2 more Barracks, so unless I'm missing something, I don't have much to compare to. One of the main features of the build is the fast double reactors, combat shields timings, and upgrades to follow, but of course it is similar to other 1 Rax FEs other than that. More reactors means more Marines, and while they aren't amazing against Colossus, I think it works out just fine if you are very aggressive and do a half decent job microing. Considering he would potentially only have 1 Colossus without range, you have plenty of time to adapt and add tech labs.
Perhaps it's weak, but I think you should be able to determine if he is going 1 base allin in advance. The game plan changes completely if he hasn't expanded. At that point you would keep your second orbital in your main and make 2 bunkers, and cancel addons for more Marines early.
Liquipedia links to Day9 Daily #321 with analysis from Dignitas.SeleCT, Startale.Bomber and Slayers.Ganzi doing 1Rax FE and they all go for 2 tech lab/1reactor. The daily also goes through a bunch of variations of it too which is really nice (fast medivac, fast upgrade etc..). I just assumed it was the standard.
I think the fastest double medivac timing shown in the daily was close to 9m which is when the threat for collus arises. Your build seems to wait for medivacs before pushing out which doesn't make use out of the early stim research. What situations do you think you could move out before medivacs? You also suggest that if combat shield isnt finished its a good idea to wait and move out with 4 medivacs which I personally feel is really dangerous if he is going collus (whether its fast collus or not). I guess if you keep him pinned in his base for a while with double drop harrass you can buy some time to make vikings though. With double tech lab you can also research two upgrades at a time which is nice. What do you think?
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I actually haven't seen that daily, I'll definitely take a look and compare though. I'll post my thoughts on the differences tonight after I take a look, thanks.
As for waiting for combat shields + another 2 medivacs, I should be more clear on that. Right now I just said "it can be a good idea", but I didn't really go in to detail. It would definitely be better to attack early on and use the 3rd and 4th medivacs for multipronged drops to reinforce your first pair. If he does get colossus that fast he really won't have many units to deal with all the drops.
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Kind of all in. If you don't do damage marine tech is bad later into the game.
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On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote:
Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while.
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Thorzain has a 1rax fe build that does the closest to what I describe. you can see the analysis here:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-394-p1-terran-week-thorzain-s-tvt-5862954
He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done.
Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following:
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more
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On February 01 2012 03:32 unix04 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote:
Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while.
. Thorzain has a 1rax fe build that does the closest to what I describe. you can see the analysis here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-394-p1-terran-week-thorzain-s-tvt-5862954He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done. Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following: Show nested quote +
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
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On February 01 2012 03:47 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:32 unix04 wrote:On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote:
Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while.
. Thorzain has a 1rax fe build that does the closest to what I describe. you can see the analysis here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-394-p1-terran-week-thorzain-s-tvt-5862954He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done. Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following:
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
i agree with you. the point was to let the OP know that pushing the engineering bay up earlier for a +1 timing attack doesn't cripple your production and force a weaker push at around the 11 minute mark (which is pretty late IMHO). if anything, against protoss, earlier upgrades can make a big difference as protoss can double upgrade very quickly.
by the way, Grobyc, earlier engineering bay isn't purely for the anti-cheese, but for also for upgrade advantages. also, in thorzain's build, he already starts his 3rd CC on his 10 minute push. it would be a good idea to include how you will transition if your 11minute push fails to win you the game.
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On February 01 2012 03:08 Moosy wrote:
Kind of all in. If you don't do damage marine tech is bad later into the game.
Wrong. Watch Puma for example, he builds a lot of marines throughout the whole game. 2 Marines actually do more damage to armored units than a marauder. The problem is to keep the marines alive, that needs good micro, especially ghost- and viking-control.
I tried this build in master league today against some decent protoss players and they didn't even survive the push at 11 minutes. Forcefields didn't help them because of simple medivac drop into main and then attack at the natural. I really like this opening with the 2 reactors, it gives a very huge army early in the game and with decent control an incredibly hard to hold push.
The only problem I see is if the push doesn't do enough damage and if the toss is ahead in upgrades. Since that didn't happen in my games i actually don't know if you're that far behind after the push.
Overall I really like the build, it gave me 4 easy wins out of 4 games against Protoss today 
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Factory after tl +stim, then other tl and reactor imo. You do it for the fast medivacs so better make them real fast ^^ Don't really agree with the double reactor on the raxes, you'll end up to marine heavy in most cases.
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Anyone else have a problem with him putting his name on what appears to be a standard TvP? Its nice of you to post, but trying to name it after yourself is a bit unfair.
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Anyone else have a problem with him putting his name on what appears to be a standard TvP? Its nice of you to post, but trying to name it after yourself is a bit unfair.
I actually don't understand what everyone has got against putting the name to some build order. It isn't revolutionary but it is something new and personally I don't mind calling the build order Grobyc's.
Factory after tl +stim, then other tl and reactor imo. You do it for the fast medivacs so better make them real fast ^^ Don't really agree with the double reactor on the raxes, you'll end up to marine heavy in most cases.
It's exactly the marine-heavy part of this build that makes it a really good timing push. Just try it against a protoss on your level and if you execute it the right way you'll probably be really successful with it.
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Another problem for me is you have so many marines but you can't get CS and stim in time for a early push and you also have to make a decision to sacrifice conc shells in order to speed up your hit or wait for it and that just delays your 3rd upgrade even more, its just hard to get the infantry upgrades you really need without 2 tech labs.
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I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I've been looking for a well written 1 rax FE build against Toss (so I can stop 1/1/1ing and actually get better at TvP), and this looks very promising. Will definitely be trying it out in my games.
Also just to weigh in, who cares if he puts his name on it? It's just his take on a particular opening.
Thanks again!
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On February 01 2012 03:08 Moosy wrote:
Kind of all in. If you don't do damage marine tech is bad later into the game.
I disagree. I don't think it takes long at all to swap your reactored barracks with tech labs, and the colossus count at that point is going to be low enough where you'll have the time to stall with drops. You also already have a reactored starport and 4 medivacs, so starting double viking production at that point isn't out of the question either.
On February 01 2012 03:32 unix04 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote:
Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while.
. Thorzain has a 1rax fe build that does the closest to what I describe. you can see the analysis here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-394-p1-terran-week-thorzain-s-tvt-5862954He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done. Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following: Show nested quote +
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more
Whether my guide here is weaker than Thorzain's, I don't know, as I haven't seen that daily yet either. As you can see in the intro video, at 10:45, while I am moving out to attack, I have 38 marines (less than TZ), 4 medivacs (more than TZ), 6 marauders (more than TZ), and cs + stim (no +1 attack yet). Considering this is against Protoss and not Terran, we've lost the tank(s), but have 6 marauders, 2 more medivacs, and CS + stim with +1/+1 25% done. For TvP I would rather have the latter personally. Regardless I'll take a look and post my thoughts tonight. I honestly just can't fathom getting any more out any faster than I put together yesterday. Either way, thanks for the feedback.
On February 01 2012 03:47 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:32 unix04 wrote:On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote:
Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while.
. Thorzain has a 1rax fe build that does the closest to what I describe. you can see the analysis here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-394-p1-terran-week-thorzain-s-tvt-5862954He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done. Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following:
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
What do you mean by "metagame timing attack"? There's no metagame to this as far as I can see, it's just a set of timings in game. As far as I know metagame has to do with things that don't directly affect the game, such as "oh shit, this guy DT rushed me 3 times in a row, I bet he's DT rushing me again now", even though there's nothing about that game that technically invokes a thought like that. Either way, Protoss are generally weak around this time of the game, and just because they may know it's coming doesn't mean it's any less deadly.
On February 01 2012 04:55 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:08 Moosy wrote:
Kind of all in. If you don't do damage marine tech is bad later into the game. Wrong. Watch Puma for example, he builds a lot of marines throughout the whole game. 2 Marines actually do more damage to armored units than a marauder. The problem is to keep the marines alive, that needs good micro, especially ghost- and viking-control. I tried this build in master league today against some decent protoss players and they didn't even survive the push at 11 minutes. Forcefields didn't help them because of simple medivac drop into main and then attack at the natural. I really like this opening with the 2 reactors, it gives a very huge army early in the game and with decent control an incredibly hard to hold push. The only problem I see is if the push doesn't do enough damage and if the toss is ahead in upgrades. Since that didn't happen in my games i actually don't know if you're that far behind after the push. Overall I really like the build, it gave me 4 easy wins out of 4 games against Protoss today
Glad to hear that, thanks  . Today or tomorrow I'll probably add a section on the late game (12 minutes+ anyway).
On February 01 2012 05:06 Arcanefrost wrote:
Factory after tl +stim, then other tl and reactor imo. You do it for the fast medivacs so better make them real fast ^^ Don't really agree with the double reactor on the raxes, you'll end up to marine heavy in most cases.
The aim of this build focuses on heavy amounts of marines on purpose. There still might be better ways to execute it though, so I'm still looking in to optimizing it as much as possible.
On February 01 2012 06:14 statikg wrote:
Another problem for me is you have so many marines but you can't get CS and stim in time for a early push and you also have to make a decision to sacrifice conc shells in order to speed up your hit or wait for it and that just delays your 3rd upgrade even more, its just hard to get the infantry upgrades you really need without 2 tech labs.
This may be true. Like I've just mentioned to Arcanefrost, I'm still optimizing at the moment, so I might find a different order that yields better results. Since there are so many more marines than marauders, I would rarely wait until concussive shells finishes to attack. It's meant to come after in order to get combat shields done.
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