EPTOn February 08 2012 11:56 Grobyc wrote:
Revised build with +1 infantry weapons, combat shields, stim. Leaves base at 9:50 mark, hits opponent at 10:25-10:55 depending on rush distance. I'll be doing a new video for the revised build as soon as I can fix my stupid mic :/
http://drop.sc/106975
Changes:
- New timing. Leaves base at 9:50.
- Features +1 infantry weapons, stim packs, and combat shields
- Dropped the 2-4 marauders that were in the attack before. They weren't overly important and we didn't have concussive shells at that point anyway.
- Army composes of ~35-40 marines and 2 medivacs
- Bunker at the front just past the 4:00 mark to fixed the issue of Protoss being aggressive with initial Stalker and Zealot
- Scan added around 6:00 mark for extra safety
Revised build with +1 infantry weapons, combat shields, stim. Leaves base at 9:50 mark, hits opponent at 10:25-10:55 depending on rush distance. I'll be doing a new video for the revised build as soon as I can fix my stupid mic :/
http://drop.sc/106975
Changes:
- New timing. Leaves base at 9:50.
- Features +1 infantry weapons, stim packs, and combat shields
- Dropped the 2-4 marauders that were in the attack before. They weren't overly important and we didn't have concussive shells at that point anyway.
- Army composes of ~35-40 marines and 2 medivacs
- Bunker at the front just past the 4:00 mark to fixed the issue of Protoss being aggressive with initial Stalker and Zealot
- Scan added around 6:00 mark for extra safety
I'll be updating the OP and making a new video ASAP.
Introduction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOJxpB9v3oE
I’d like to introduce a build I’ve been having a great amount of success with in TvP on the ladder. The following is my adaption and follow up of a 1 rax expand. The build boasts three main features, which I will go over in detail shortly:
--> Standard 1 rax FE allows flexibility should you need to change your build upon scouting something abnormal.
--> It aims to put on early pressure via quick double medivacs with stim going in to the mid game.
--> Allows us to set the pace of the game.
There are dozens of variations you can make to an opening build to personalize it, such as MCs 1 gate FE, Warden's 1/1/1, etc, so I figured I would make a guide a specific one I’ve playing around with as of late.
If people want some kind of credibility, I'm having success with this build on ladder and practice games as a Top 8 Masters Terran: http://sc2ranks.com/us/412181/SalGrobyc
Overview
This build makes use of a fast expansion in order to quickly get up the infrastructure needed to apply pressure to the Protoss going in to the midgame. It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BOgGr.png)
Should the Protoss not flat out die to this push due to a build order loss or poor decision, there are weaknesses that must be exploited to prevent Protoss from jumping ahead in the macro game. It is not as simple and merely attack moving the front door with your army.
I do not recommend this build if you lack the mechanics to use it the way it should be used. Dual reactor 3 Rax means a lot of Marines at your disposal. This build relies on constant pressure and trading small-medium armies when efficient. For the most part, us, the Terran, are the aggressors in this build, so you may not like it if you play a very passive playstyle.
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm not one for using specific numbers in build orders, so I'll just give the first few important ones and then we'll use generic timings for the second half
We have two choices to pick from now.
1) Move out - the game will be about 9:45 in. Combat shields will be just under halfway done. Rally your production to the opponents base and begin the attack.
2) Wait until the third and fourth medivacs are done - the game will be about 10:20 in. In the above VOD (replay of demo below), at 10:45, while I am closing in on the opponents base, I have 38 marines, 4 medivacs, 6 marauders, and combat shields + stim with +1/+1 25% done.
The decision is up to you. If your opponent went for something like a fast third or a 3 gate robo -> late expansion then I would opt for the second, stronger timing. If the opponent is starting to tech then I prefer to attack earlier.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BtjHr.png)
If it wasn't already a given, you should be making SCVs from both Orbitals throughout the whole build, as well as Marines and Marauders when addons aren't being made.
Every scan used instead of a Mule slightly weakens your attack, so try to be adamant about poking him with scouts and save energy for Mules.
- 10 Depot
- 12 Rax
- 15 Orbital
- 16 Marine
+ Show Spoiler [Note] +or 15 Marine, 16 Orbital, same time - 16 Command Center
- 17 Depot
- 21 Barracks x2
- 23 Refinery x2
- @100% Command Center - Make it an Orbital. Drop the Mule then land it at your natural and transfer SCVs when done.
- @100% completion of 2nd and 3rd Barracks - 2 Marines out of them. Your 1st Barracks should have been producing marines up until now; when it's current Marine building is done, make a tech lab.
+ Show Spoiler +Unless you see he's expanded already, put a bunker at your natural. - @100% Marines - Two reactors on 2nd and 3rd Barracks. Make
- @100% tech lab - Stim pack
+ Show Spoiler [Note] +When your tech lab and reactors have finished you should be making 1 Marauder and 4 Marines at a time constantly. After your tech lab finishes initially, that Barracks will make one Marine before starting on Marauders, just because we've used all our gas. - @100 gas - Factory
- @100% Factory - Reactor on it and Starport next to it
- @100% Starport - Swap Factorys reactor on to starport and begin double medivac production. Begin combat shields and concussive shells after (I prefer combat shields next as we have more Marines than Marauders). Take both your 3rd and 4th gas at this point.
- @100% Medivac x2 - Queue two more and make double engineering bays.
We have two choices to pick from now.
1) Move out - the game will be about 9:45 in. Combat shields will be just under halfway done. Rally your production to the opponents base and begin the attack.
2) Wait until the third and fourth medivacs are done - the game will be about 10:20 in. In the above VOD (replay of demo below), at 10:45, while I am closing in on the opponents base, I have 38 marines, 4 medivacs, 6 marauders, and combat shields + stim with +1/+1 25% done.
The decision is up to you. If your opponent went for something like a fast third or a 3 gate robo -> late expansion then I would opt for the second, stronger timing. If the opponent is starting to tech then I prefer to attack earlier.
If it wasn't already a given, you should be making SCVs from both Orbitals throughout the whole build, as well as Marines and Marauders when addons aren't being made.
Every scan used instead of a Mule slightly weakens your attack, so try to be adamant about poking him with scouts and save energy for Mules.
Playing it Out
+ Show Spoiler +
Okay, so now what? Well when our first set of Medivacs pop out we move out with our army. Before this point you should have been poking around at your opponent and answered at least the two following questions:
- Where is he?
We need to know this to attack them. Derp.
- Is he cheesing/allining me?
We may have fast expanded, but the opening is still very versatile. If you suspect an allin, react accordingly. Depending on the map, you may end up making 3-4 bunkers or even retreating in to your main. See @Void Ray allins and @DT rush in the FAQ for information on that.
OK, if you can safely answer the two questions above then we are ready to disperse the troops! I'll go over the responses I typically see from Protoss and how we should play against them:
Scenario 1
He's going fast Colossus!
He's gone for 2-3 gate fast Colossus off 2 base.
---> No big deal, so he's probably got 1 Colossus at this point, likely without Thermal Lance. I like to load up one of the Medivacs full, drop his main with it, and then poke the front with your remaining forces. He's only got 1 Colossus, and he needs his army together as a whole to protect it. If he sends too much of his army back to defend the drop then you can rape and pillage the natural. If he doesn't send enough then he won't be able to clean up his main. If you can snipe the single Colossus with taking too big of casualties then you are in a great position. Take your third and making vikings 2 at a time.
Scenario 2
He's going fast templar!
He's gone for fast templar tech; it may be storm or Chargelot-Archon.
---> I treat this virtually the same as if he went fast Colossus. The important thing is to not sacrifice your army. Kite his zealots and Archons if he has any and most importantly don't get stormed. He will be relying on good forcefields, flanks and feedbacking your drops. Start adding Ghosts to your composition and take your 3rd. You should be able to contain him in his base by threatening to counter with drops if he moves out.
Scenario 3
He's getting a fast third!
He's got 5 gateways max and and taken a quick third base.
---> There's a good chance you can kill him at this point, depending on the map. With the timing that this build hits, unless he is playing on a map with a very easy third to hold, he simply does not have enough stuff and is spread out to thin to defend all fronts. Drop him constantly and force him to spread out his army. With stim and Medivacs, you should be able to kite and eventually kill off his gateway unit army, especially when your 3rd and 4th Medivacs pops out and combat shields as well as +1/+1 finishes. There's a very good chance you can deny his 3rd and force him back on to 2 bases then expand yourself.
Scenario 4
He's going 6 Gate!
He's added 4-5 gateways after expanding and is gearing up to attack me.
---> Make 2 bunkers at your natural and get ready to defend an attack. When the bunkers are up and you feel safe, begin your third Command Center in base and float it to your third when complete. Add another 2 Barracks and get ready to move out in another minute or two once he begins to tech or takes a third.
Scenario 5
He's just teching slowly!
He's just turtling in his base and teching slowly.
---> Poke around and kill what you can without putting your army in danger. Take a third base, add Barracks, and keep dropping him when he tries to move out or reposition his army. We should be in a good position as long as we can get our third base up and the extra Barracks without dying. Stall for time with drops and even make bunkers or a planetary are your third if you need to to hold it. Once you've sat on three bases for a couple minutes, you should have +2/+2 upgrades and Ghosts or Vikings to deal with his tech of choice.
In any situation, add an Armoury when your upgrades are about halfway done for +2/+2 and add more Barracks as you expand. As he makes Colossus and Templar, add Ghosts and a second reactored Starport.
- Where is he?
We need to know this to attack them. Derp.
- Is he cheesing/allining me?
We may have fast expanded, but the opening is still very versatile. If you suspect an allin, react accordingly. Depending on the map, you may end up making 3-4 bunkers or even retreating in to your main. See @Void Ray allins and @DT rush in the FAQ for information on that.
OK, if you can safely answer the two questions above then we are ready to disperse the troops! I'll go over the responses I typically see from Protoss and how we should play against them:
Scenario 1
He's going fast Colossus!
He's gone for 2-3 gate fast Colossus off 2 base.
---> No big deal, so he's probably got 1 Colossus at this point, likely without Thermal Lance. I like to load up one of the Medivacs full, drop his main with it, and then poke the front with your remaining forces. He's only got 1 Colossus, and he needs his army together as a whole to protect it. If he sends too much of his army back to defend the drop then you can rape and pillage the natural. If he doesn't send enough then he won't be able to clean up his main. If you can snipe the single Colossus with taking too big of casualties then you are in a great position. Take your third and making vikings 2 at a time.
Scenario 2
He's going fast templar!
He's gone for fast templar tech; it may be storm or Chargelot-Archon.
---> I treat this virtually the same as if he went fast Colossus. The important thing is to not sacrifice your army. Kite his zealots and Archons if he has any and most importantly don't get stormed. He will be relying on good forcefields, flanks and feedbacking your drops. Start adding Ghosts to your composition and take your 3rd. You should be able to contain him in his base by threatening to counter with drops if he moves out.
Scenario 3
He's getting a fast third!
He's got 5 gateways max and and taken a quick third base.
---> There's a good chance you can kill him at this point, depending on the map. With the timing that this build hits, unless he is playing on a map with a very easy third to hold, he simply does not have enough stuff and is spread out to thin to defend all fronts. Drop him constantly and force him to spread out his army. With stim and Medivacs, you should be able to kite and eventually kill off his gateway unit army, especially when your 3rd and 4th Medivacs pops out and combat shields as well as +1/+1 finishes. There's a very good chance you can deny his 3rd and force him back on to 2 bases then expand yourself.
Scenario 4
He's going 6 Gate!
He's added 4-5 gateways after expanding and is gearing up to attack me.
---> Make 2 bunkers at your natural and get ready to defend an attack. When the bunkers are up and you feel safe, begin your third Command Center in base and float it to your third when complete. Add another 2 Barracks and get ready to move out in another minute or two once he begins to tech or takes a third.
Scenario 5
He's just teching slowly!
He's just turtling in his base and teching slowly.
---> Poke around and kill what you can without putting your army in danger. Take a third base, add Barracks, and keep dropping him when he tries to move out or reposition his army. We should be in a good position as long as we can get our third base up and the extra Barracks without dying. Stall for time with drops and even make bunkers or a planetary are your third if you need to to hold it. Once you've sat on three bases for a couple minutes, you should have +2/+2 upgrades and Ghosts or Vikings to deal with his tech of choice.
In any situation, add an Armoury when your upgrades are about halfway done for +2/+2 and add more Barracks as you expand. As he makes Colossus and Templar, add Ghosts and a second reactored Starport.
What the build achieves
+ Show Spoiler +
As stated above, I'll go over the three features that make this build so effective in my opinion.
Many, many Protoss players don't know how to deal with a 1 Rax FE in my experience, so I've come accross a number of allins thrown at my when they scout the fast Command Center. This is something you will have to deal with; if you see something fishy or suspect an allin is headed your way, prepare accordingly. Don't just go on with the build because you feel bound by it. If you know you are going to get 4gated, just don't float your Orbital to your natural, add a bunker or two, and get units out quicker
I've tried many different followup to different kinds of fast expansions TvP and I've just never found a build that feels so natural and doesn't make me feel down in economy, immobile, behind in upgrades, and clawing to get my third base up. The way the timing works in the midgame is very flexible in the way that we have the majority of our infrastructure up, we have a mobile army to put pressure on with, and we are heading in to the late game with good upgrades, lots of SCVs, and some map control.
One of my favourite things about this build is that fact that you can use many different styles in combination with it. Aggressive players will enjoy the tool of constant harass that becomes available to you early on as well as more passive players are able to feel comfortable simply taking a quick additional base and waiting for the opponent to come to them.
Standard 1 rax FE allows flexibility should you need to change your build upon scouting something abnormal.
Many, many Protoss players don't know how to deal with a 1 Rax FE in my experience, so I've come accross a number of allins thrown at my when they scout the fast Command Center. This is something you will have to deal with; if you see something fishy or suspect an allin is headed your way, prepare accordingly. Don't just go on with the build because you feel bound by it. If you know you are going to get 4gated, just don't float your Orbital to your natural, add a bunker or two, and get units out quicker
It aims to put on early pressure via quick double medivacs with stim going in to the mid game.
I've tried many different followup to different kinds of fast expansions TvP and I've just never found a build that feels so natural and doesn't make me feel down in economy, immobile, behind in upgrades, and clawing to get my third base up. The way the timing works in the midgame is very flexible in the way that we have the majority of our infrastructure up, we have a mobile army to put pressure on with, and we are heading in to the late game with good upgrades, lots of SCVs, and some map control.
Allows us to set the pace of the game.
One of my favourite things about this build is that fact that you can use many different styles in combination with it. Aggressive players will enjoy the tool of constant harass that becomes available to you early on as well as more passive players are able to feel comfortable simply taking a quick additional base and waiting for the opponent to come to them.
FAQ
+ Show Spoiler +
@ Void Ray allins
@ DT rush
On January 31 2012 10:10 xTrim wrote:
i`m not a big fan of going reactor right after the raxes, since you can get nastied by a voidray all in due to the lack of marines in the mean time (figures, u need 2 production cycles from the reactors in order to get the same amount of marines you would if reactors werent built...)
do you have replays defending void rays?
i`m not a big fan of going reactor right after the raxes, since you can get nastied by a voidray all in due to the lack of marines in the mean time (figures, u need 2 production cycles from the reactors in order to get the same amount of marines you would if reactors werent built...)
do you have replays defending void rays?
On January 31 2012 10:15 Grobyc wrote:
Yeah you really have to scout and eliminate the possibility of him going 3 gate void ray allin. I haven't played against it yet since using this build, but when I do I'll add it to the replay section for sure. If you scout void ray all in you're best off keeping your second orbital in your main, making a bunker, and delaying the reactors to get more marines out initially. Pretty much if they go void ray allin then you won't actually be executing this build as you normally would. The timings and everything completely change from there; you could write a whole other guide on simply following up to one.
Yeah you really have to scout and eliminate the possibility of him going 3 gate void ray allin. I haven't played against it yet since using this build, but when I do I'll add it to the replay section for sure. If you scout void ray all in you're best off keeping your second orbital in your main, making a bunker, and delaying the reactors to get more marines out initially. Pretty much if they go void ray allin then you won't actually be executing this build as you normally would. The timings and everything completely change from there; you could write a whole other guide on simply following up to one.
@ DT rush
On January 31 2012 10:18 unix04 wrote:
Grobyc, it might not be a bad idea to put down the engineering bay before the starport, maybe even before the fac finishes if you suspect DT play. This way, the scans you use on your own base could be used on the counter-push when you see that toss teched up and you have the army/economy advantage (or on mules while you mass up further ^^)
Grobyc, it might not be a bad idea to put down the engineering bay before the starport, maybe even before the fac finishes if you suspect DT play. This way, the scans you use on your own base could be used on the counter-push when you see that toss teched up and you have the army/economy advantage (or on mules while you mass up further ^^)
On January 31 2012 10:31 Grobyc wrote:
You're right, I didn't touch on DTs at all in this. I think blindly getting an Ebay like that every game would be unnecessary though. I would only advise on getting it earlier if the Protoss goes for a double gas opening and not an expansion though. A build isn't supposed to have all of the quirks to defend everything Protoss can do, you must abandon this build, get detection and play a reactionary style. Adding detection early on just in the case of DTs takes away from the other strong parts of the build.
You're right, I didn't touch on DTs at all in this. I think blindly getting an Ebay like that every game would be unnecessary though. I would only advise on getting it earlier if the Protoss goes for a double gas opening and not an expansion though. A build isn't supposed to have all of the quirks to defend everything Protoss can do, you must abandon this build, get detection and play a reactionary style. Adding detection early on just in the case of DTs takes away from the other strong parts of the build.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Build order demo replay
Replays will be constantly added as I find good replays.
+ Show Spoiler [Old] +
These are some of the initial runs at the build, so some timings are different from the more refined version listed above. Some things are even completely different (mainly 3rd and 4th gas timings as well as upgrades). DO NOT copy the build from here.
Game 1:
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12328/SalGrobyc_vs_Tero
My opponent goes for quick Colossus off 3 gates. He stalls just long enough to keep me at bay in his front while a Colossus pops out, but I force him to split his army with a drop in his main and do some damage. I take a third while expanding, add some Barracks, and prepare Vikings for his attack to follow. Once he attack has been defended, it doesn't take long to finish him off.
Game 2:
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12330/SalGrobyc_vs_oMdUnNe
My opponent opens 15 Nexus, gaining an economic advantage over me early on. He follows up with a quick 4 gate attack on my natural once I've expanded, but I hold it with SCVs repairing my bunker. Greedily, my opponent takes a third base while added 3 more gateways up to a total of 7. Some bad building placement allows me to kill 3 of his gateways, and I engage once my 3rd and 4th Medivacs arrive in conjunction with my combat shields.
Game 3:
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12329/SalGrobyc_vs_nGSaiyen
My opponent opens with a 3 gate robo, a terrible counter to my build. He puts on some pressure with an Immortal or two before expanding, but I hold easily with a bunker. He finally expands, but when my push comes he's just too far behind economically. His pylon sees my drop coming, but with proper micro I am able to get in to his base and essentially kill him on the spot because of my faster expansion.
Game 1:
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12328/SalGrobyc_vs_Tero
My opponent goes for quick Colossus off 3 gates. He stalls just long enough to keep me at bay in his front while a Colossus pops out, but I force him to split his army with a drop in his main and do some damage. I take a third while expanding, add some Barracks, and prepare Vikings for his attack to follow. Once he attack has been defended, it doesn't take long to finish him off.
Game 2:
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12330/SalGrobyc_vs_oMdUnNe
My opponent opens 15 Nexus, gaining an economic advantage over me early on. He follows up with a quick 4 gate attack on my natural once I've expanded, but I hold it with SCVs repairing my bunker. Greedily, my opponent takes a third base while added 3 more gateways up to a total of 7. Some bad building placement allows me to kill 3 of his gateways, and I engage once my 3rd and 4th Medivacs arrive in conjunction with my combat shields.
Game 3:
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12329/SalGrobyc_vs_nGSaiyen
My opponent opens with a 3 gate robo, a terrible counter to my build. He puts on some pressure with an Immortal or two before expanding, but I hold easily with a bunker. He finally expands, but when my push comes he's just too far behind economically. His pylon sees my drop coming, but with proper micro I am able to get in to his base and essentially kill him on the spot because of my faster expansion.
.
