On February 08 2012 11:56 Grobyc wrote: Revised build with +1 infantry weapons, combat shields, stim. Leaves base at 9:50 mark, hits opponent at 10:25-10:55 depending on rush distance. I'll be doing a new video for the revised build as soon as I can fix my stupid mic :/
http://drop.sc/106975 Changes: - New timing. Leaves base at 9:50. - Features +1 infantry weapons, stim packs, and combat shields - Dropped the 2-4 marauders that were in the attack before. They weren't overly important and we didn't have concussive shells at that point anyway. - Army composes of ~35-40 marines and 2 medivacs - Bunker at the front just past the 4:00 mark to fixed the issue of Protoss being aggressive with initial Stalker and Zealot - Scan added around 6:00 mark for extra safety
I'll be updating the OP and making a new video ASAP.
Introduction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOJxpB9v3oE
I’d like to introduce a build I’ve been having a great amount of success with in TvP on the ladder. The following is my adaption and follow up of a 1 rax expand. The build boasts three main features, which I will go over in detail shortly:
--> Standard 1 rax FE allows flexibility should you need to change your build upon scouting something abnormal.
--> It aims to put on early pressure via quick double medivacs with stim going in to the mid game.
--> Allows us to set the pace of the game.
There are dozens of variations you can make to an opening build to personalize it, such as MCs 1 gate FE, Warden's 1/1/1, etc, so I figured I would make a guide a specific one I’ve playing around with as of late.
If people want some kind of credibility, I'm having success with this build on ladder and practice games as a Top 8 Masters Terran: http://sc2ranks.com/us/412181/SalGrobyc
Overview
This build makes use of a fast expansion in order to quickly get up the infrastructure needed to apply pressure to the Protoss going in to the midgame. It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
Should the Protoss not flat out die to this push due to a build order loss or poor decision, there are weaknesses that must be exploited to prevent Protoss from jumping ahead in the macro game. It is not as simple and merely attack moving the front door with your army.
I do not recommend this build if you lack the mechanics to use it the way it should be used. Dual reactor 3 Rax means a lot of Marines at your disposal. This build relies on constant pressure and trading small-medium armies when efficient. For the most part, us, the Terran, are the aggressors in this build, so you may not like it if you play a very passive playstyle.
I'm not one for using specific numbers in build orders, so I'll just give the first few important ones and then we'll use generic timings for the second half
@100% Command Center - Make it an Orbital. Drop the Mule then land it at your natural and transfer SCVs when done.
@100% completion of 2nd and 3rd Barracks - 2 Marines out of them. Your 1st Barracks should have been producing marines up until now; when it's current Marine building is done, make a tech lab. + Show Spoiler +
Unless you see he's expanded already, put a bunker at your natural.
@100% Marines - Two reactors on 2nd and 3rd Barracks. Make
When your tech lab and reactors have finished you should be making 1 Marauder and 4 Marines at a time constantly. After your tech lab finishes initially, that Barracks will make one Marine before starting on Marauders, just because we've used all our gas.
@100 gas - Factory
@100% Factory - Reactor on it and Starport next to it
@100% Starport - Swap Factorys reactor on to starport and begin double medivac production. Begin combat shields and concussive shells after (I prefer combat shields next as we have more Marines than Marauders). Take both your 3rd and 4th gas at this point.
@100% Medivac x2 - Queue two more and make double engineering bays.
We have two choices to pick from now.
1) Move out - the game will be about 9:45 in. Combat shields will be just under halfway done. Rally your production to the opponents base and begin the attack.
2) Wait until the third and fourth medivacs are done - the game will be about 10:20 in. In the above VOD (replay of demo below), at 10:45, while I am closing in on the opponents base, I have 38 marines, 4 medivacs, 6 marauders, and combat shields + stim with +1/+1 25% done.
The decision is up to you. If your opponent went for something like a fast third or a 3 gate robo -> late expansion then I would opt for the second, stronger timing. If the opponent is starting to tech then I prefer to attack earlier.
If it wasn't already a given, you should be making SCVs from both Orbitals throughout the whole build, as well as Marines and Marauders when addons aren't being made.
Every scan used instead of a Mule slightly weakens your attack, so try to be adamant about poking him with scouts and save energy for Mules.
Okay, so now what? Well when our first set of Medivacs pop out we move out with our army. Before this point you should have been poking around at your opponent and answered at least the two following questions: - Where is he? We need to know this to attack them. Derp.
- Is he cheesing/allining me? We may have fast expanded, but the opening is still very versatile. If you suspect an allin, react accordingly. Depending on the map, you may end up making 3-4 bunkers or even retreating in to your main. See @Void Ray allins and @DT rush in the FAQ for information on that.
OK, if you can safely answer the two questions above then we are ready to disperse the troops! I'll go over the responses I typically see from Protoss and how we should play against them:
Scenario 1 He's going fast Colossus! He's gone for 2-3 gate fast Colossus off 2 base. ---> No big deal, so he's probably got 1 Colossus at this point, likely without Thermal Lance. I like to load up one of the Medivacs full, drop his main with it, and then poke the front with your remaining forces. He's only got 1 Colossus, and he needs his army together as a whole to protect it. If he sends too much of his army back to defend the drop then you can rape and pillage the natural. If he doesn't send enough then he won't be able to clean up his main. If you can snipe the single Colossus with taking too big of casualties then you are in a great position. Take your third and making vikings 2 at a time.
Scenario 2 He's going fast templar! He's gone for fast templar tech; it may be storm or Chargelot-Archon. ---> I treat this virtually the same as if he went fast Colossus. The important thing is to not sacrifice your army. Kite his zealots and Archons if he has any and most importantly don't get stormed. He will be relying on good forcefields, flanks and feedbacking your drops. Start adding Ghosts to your composition and take your 3rd. You should be able to contain him in his base by threatening to counter with drops if he moves out.
Scenario 3 He's getting a fast third! He's got 5 gateways max and and taken a quick third base. ---> There's a good chance you can kill him at this point, depending on the map. With the timing that this build hits, unless he is playing on a map with a very easy third to hold, he simply does not have enough stuff and is spread out to thin to defend all fronts. Drop him constantly and force him to spread out his army. With stim and Medivacs, you should be able to kite and eventually kill off his gateway unit army, especially when your 3rd and 4th Medivacs pops out and combat shields as well as +1/+1 finishes. There's a very good chance you can deny his 3rd and force him back on to 2 bases then expand yourself.
Scenario 4 He's going 6 Gate! He's added 4-5 gateways after expanding and is gearing up to attack me. ---> Make 2 bunkers at your natural and get ready to defend an attack. When the bunkers are up and you feel safe, begin your third Command Center in base and float it to your third when complete. Add another 2 Barracks and get ready to move out in another minute or two once he begins to tech or takes a third.
Scenario 5 He's just teching slowly! He's just turtling in his base and teching slowly. ---> Poke around and kill what you can without putting your army in danger. Take a third base, add Barracks, and keep dropping him when he tries to move out or reposition his army. We should be in a good position as long as we can get our third base up and the extra Barracks without dying. Stall for time with drops and even make bunkers or a planetary are your third if you need to to hold it. Once you've sat on three bases for a couple minutes, you should have +2/+2 upgrades and Ghosts or Vikings to deal with his tech of choice.
In any situation, add an Armoury when your upgrades are about halfway done for +2/+2 and add more Barracks as you expand. As he makes Colossus and Templar, add Ghosts and a second reactored Starport.
As stated above, I'll go over the three features that make this build so effective in my opinion.
Standard 1 rax FE allows flexibility should you need to change your build upon scouting something abnormal.
Many, many Protoss players don't know how to deal with a 1 Rax FE in my experience, so I've come accross a number of allins thrown at my when they scout the fast Command Center. This is something you will have to deal with; if you see something fishy or suspect an allin is headed your way, prepare accordingly. Don't just go on with the build because you feel bound by it. If you know you are going to get 4gated, just don't float your Orbital to your natural, add a bunker or two, and get units out quicker
It aims to put on early pressure via quick double medivacs with stim going in to the mid game.
I've tried many different followup to different kinds of fast expansions TvP and I've just never found a build that feels so natural and doesn't make me feel down in economy, immobile, behind in upgrades, and clawing to get my third base up. The way the timing works in the midgame is very flexible in the way that we have the majority of our infrastructure up, we have a mobile army to put pressure on with, and we are heading in to the late game with good upgrades, lots of SCVs, and some map control.
Allows us to set the pace of the game.
One of my favourite things about this build is that fact that you can use many different styles in combination with it. Aggressive players will enjoy the tool of constant harass that becomes available to you early on as well as more passive players are able to feel comfortable simply taking a quick additional base and waiting for the opponent to come to them.
On January 31 2012 10:10 xTrim wrote: i`m not a big fan of going reactor right after the raxes, since you can get nastied by a voidray all in due to the lack of marines in the mean time (figures, u need 2 production cycles from the reactors in order to get the same amount of marines you would if reactors werent built...)
do you have replays defending void rays?
On January 31 2012 10:15 Grobyc wrote: Yeah you really have to scout and eliminate the possibility of him going 3 gate void ray allin. I haven't played against it yet since using this build, but when I do I'll add it to the replay section for sure. If you scout void ray all in you're best off keeping your second orbital in your main, making a bunker, and delaying the reactors to get more marines out initially. Pretty much if they go void ray allin then you won't actually be executing this build as you normally would. The timings and everything completely change from there; you could write a whole other guide on simply following up to one.
@ DT rush
On January 31 2012 10:18 unix04 wrote: Grobyc, it might not be a bad idea to put down the engineering bay before the starport, maybe even before the fac finishes if you suspect DT play. This way, the scans you use on your own base could be used on the counter-push when you see that toss teched up and you have the army/economy advantage (or on mules while you mass up further ^^)
On January 31 2012 10:31 Grobyc wrote: You're right, I didn't touch on DTs at all in this. I think blindly getting an Ebay like that every game would be unnecessary though. I would only advise on getting it earlier if the Protoss goes for a double gas opening and not an expansion though. A build isn't supposed to have all of the quirks to defend everything Protoss can do, you must abandon this build, get detection and play a reactionary style. Adding detection early on just in the case of DTs takes away from the other strong parts of the build.
These are some of the initial runs at the build, so some timings are different from the more refined version listed above. Some things are even completely different (mainly 3rd and 4th gas timings as well as upgrades). DO NOT copy the build from here.
Game 1: http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12328/SalGrobyc_vs_Tero My opponent goes for quick Colossus off 3 gates. He stalls just long enough to keep me at bay in his front while a Colossus pops out, but I force him to split his army with a drop in his main and do some damage. I take a third while expanding, add some Barracks, and prepare Vikings for his attack to follow. Once he attack has been defended, it doesn't take long to finish him off.
Game 2: http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12330/SalGrobyc_vs_oMdUnNe My opponent opens 15 Nexus, gaining an economic advantage over me early on. He follows up with a quick 4 gate attack on my natural once I've expanded, but I hold it with SCVs repairing my bunker. Greedily, my opponent takes a third base while added 3 more gateways up to a total of 7. Some bad building placement allows me to kill 3 of his gateways, and I engage once my 3rd and 4th Medivacs arrive in conjunction with my combat shields.
Game 3: http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/12329/SalGrobyc_vs_nGSaiyen My opponent opens with a 3 gate robo, a terrible counter to my build. He puts on some pressure with an Immortal or two before expanding, but I hold easily with a bunker. He finally expands, but when my push comes he's just too far behind economically. His pylon sees my drop coming, but with proper micro I am able to get in to his base and essentially kill him on the spot because of my faster expansion.
i`m not a big fan of going reactor right after the raxes, since you can get nastied by a voidray all in due to the lack of marines in the mean time (figures, u need 2 production cycles from the reactors in order to get the same amount of marines you would if reactors werent built...)
Yeah you really have to scout and eliminate the possibility of him going 3 gate void ray allin. I haven't played against it yet since using this build, but when I do I'll add it to the replay section for sure. If you scout void ray all in you're best off keeping your second orbital in your main, making a bunker, and delaying the reactors to get more marines out initially. Pretty much if they go void ray allin then you won't actually be executing this build as you normally would. The timings and everything completely change from there; you could write a whole other guide on simply following up to one.
^ xTrim, I usually cycle in reactors one rax at a time while building marines out of the other rax. I'm ok with putting the first tech lab down with a reactor simultaneously. Usually with 1rax FE + 2rax, u can constantly produce just enough marines. this way you're not losing out on 5 marines within that span, but just 2~3.
Grobyc, it might not be a bad idea to put down the engineering bay before the starport, maybe even before the fac finishes if you suspect DT play. This way, the scans you use on your own base could be used on the counter-push when you see that toss teched up and you have the army/economy advantage (or on mules while you mass up further ^^)
This is basically TvT bio build except I dunno how you'd support the gas for double medivac, and double upgrade at the timing you list, do you get combat shields and conc before or after +1/+1 how do you afford the gas off two refinery? In TvT I basically do this exact build except combat shield instead of stim and only one engi bay since I don't have the gas, not saying double engi is bad just I'm pretty sure you have to cut something to support it.
In the replay I watched though you didn't even double engineering bay when starport at 50% and you start combat shields before starting engi bay. This is replay 2 although you were still gas starved even with late engi bay and could only start 1 upgrade,although I would cut a medivac to start upgrade.
You defended a nex first into a bad 4 gate pressure(dont know what the point of a super delayed 4 gate was especially since his CB on WG was bad so much delay between CB and so much CB pooling, honestly sad considering this is masters), so there wasn't really any reason not to put down double engi(no robo, so no collosus for awhile) since you were floating 500, I'm assuming this was just a mistake and not a conscious decision.
The reason I mention the bad play of the protoss and the BO not really matching for a good adaptive reason is that it takes away from the supposed strength / strategy of the build you are trying to present. If your build is a bit different in each game and it's just from macro slipping not actual decision making it becomes harder to discern the actual strength,consistency and follow ups of the build. Basically at least in game 2, you could have two tech lab one reactor or any one rax fe variant, and won because the protoss was bad, but not only that your build didn't even match the BO so it offers even less , the only unique part of this build that you really followed was getting 2 reactors on your rax early in a tvp which is vulnerable to a lot of things.
I know it's hard to get a perfect replay in a ladder match but the BO didn't really match(You got 3rd cc before 2 engi even), and I'm sort of unconvinced you can have the gas to support double medivac and double upgrade and stim at the timing your BO says. Might also want to include the gas timings for your nat.
Just get some replays where you are at least doing the BO correctly (slipping on macro is fine imo but for replays you're gonna use in guide I think you should at least do the order of the buildings correctly)
Edit:... ok first replay is pretty terrible you don't even scout, if you had gotten 4 gated you would have just died no question even an aggressive zealot stalker poke could have been pretty bad news. Luckily he went 1 gate fe into 3 gate and doesn't use his units to poke, 1 gate fe into 4 gate also probably would have killed you if he had chased your marine poke down.
You start a 3rd refinery when your startport is about 60% done this is also not mentioned in guide and differs from your 2nd replay. Later you get a fourth gas but only leave one scv in. and again you don't put down two engi bays when starport 50%??? I don't get it, thats literally the only unique part of your build from a tvt bio build and you don't do it in 2 of your replays and the reason I watched these replays was because I didn't know how you could support the gas off of two refineries. Well you start combat shields before engi bay just like other replay, even though BO implies engi bay before combat shields but at least this time you get two engi bays up for before 3rd cc. Protoss has once again been playing badly and been behind on worker count pretty much whole game because he doesn't use chronoboost on probes enough. you attack with a huge supply lead crippling him further and transition into regular bio so the usefulness of this build isn't really showcased over any other bio build and it's not done in a consistent manner so there's no real way of telling how this build might be better or worse than other bio builds.
You should provide at least one replay vs easy ai or something where you can actually show that the BO you listed works in terms of gas timings as thats the fishiest part of this build. In your video you say you were losing caus you were winging it and obviously you are not 100% winging it in these games but they certainly aren't consistent either. Not trying to be mean btw, just stuff to improve the guide so it's more clear.
You're right, I didn't touch on DTs at all in this. I think blindly getting an Ebay like that every game would be unnecessary though. I would only advise on getting it earlier if the Protoss goes for a double gas opening and not an expansion though.
The gas timings were definitely something that varied between the games, and it shouldn't have. These games are earlier games of experimentation, so I should probably clarify and get some solid replays up, thanks. I should have the third gas in the BO actually, that was just an error. The fourth gas I find is unnecessary until you have your third and are working on double reactored starports or ghosts, I'll add detail on that.
All three tech lab upgrades are on the one tech lab in the order of Stim -> Combat Shields -> Conc. shells.
I'm definitely going to update the replays, you're right about that. I'll make a replay dedicated just to the build, and then add good replays of it done in an actual game as they come. Thanks for the input, I think I was a bit overeager making this.
On January 31 2012 10:41 Grobyc wrote: The gas timings were definitely something that varied between the games, and it shouldn't have. These games are earlier games of experimentation, so I should probably clarify and get some solid replays up, thanks. I should have the third gas in the BO actually, that was just an error. The fourth gas I find is unnecessary until you have your third and are working on double reactored starports or ghosts, I'll add detail on that.
All three tech lab upgrades are on the one tech lab in the order of Stim -> Combat Shields -> Conc. shells.
I'm definitely going to update the replays, you're right about that. I'll make a replay dedicated just to the build, and then add good replays of it done in an actual game as they come. Thanks for the input, I think I was a bit overeager making this.
NP it's awesome that you are able to take it constructively, I wrote my first guide recently too on a TvZ build Jjakji did, I know it's a lot of work / not easy, especially to get a "real" game where you don't screw up the BO at least in one spot slightly. I think having the dedicated replay will help, that was what I did until I could get a real game where I at least did the BO correctly matching the one in the guide.
On January 31 2012 10:42 Luddff wrote: annoying spoilers edit: This also seems like the standard 1rax FE up to 3rax that you've put your name on.
I prefer spoilers to make the post easier to navigate.
There are plenty of variations of a 1 Rax FE -> 3 Rax and they have their differences. Can you find a guide of this variation? I never claimed I invented anything special, I just wrote a guide on a variation I've come up with (I haven't seen one like this to my knowledge anyway). It's a hell of a lot easier to search too if there's something unique in the thread name other simple [G] 1 Rax FE TvP also.
i dont see how you can support double medivac production, start 1/1 and get combat shields while still on 2 gas, you should add when you grab your 3rd and 4th gas into the build, or it will leave alot of players wondering why when they built 2 medivacs they dont have enough to start 1/1
I like relying more on marauders TVP so this build really scares me when i see 2 reactors churning out 4 marines at a time and 1 marauder being produced. As we all know marines pretty much are useless if the Protoss decided to go colossus tech (Not completely useless you know what i mean). I didnt check out the timings on this build but i think its quite possible for a Protoss to have a colossus out by time your push is coming.
Yes, he can have one Colossus with no Thermal lance upgrade. One of the replays is against that actually.
I've gone through the build the past few hours and refined it pretty well I feel. I'll upload the new video as well as BO replay tonight. I'm pretty excited for this now
This is just a very standard 1-rax FE into 3-rax into factory-starport. This is just the most standard TvP build and hardly deserves a "Grobyc" name on it.
Other variations of the 1-rax FE include:
1-rax FE into 3-rax ghost 1-rax FE into 3-rax ebay 1-rax FE into double refinery tech etc.
On January 31 2012 14:48 Azzur wrote: This is just a very standard 1-rax FE into 3-rax into factory-starport. This is just the most standard TvP build and hardly deserves a "Grobyc" name on it.
Other variations of the 1-rax FE include:
1-rax FE into 3-rax ghost 1-rax FE into 3-rax ebay 1-rax FE into double refinery tech etc.
Not really the OP's build is quick double reactor, thats not standard at all.
On January 31 2012 10:31 Grobyc wrote: You're right, I didn't touch on DTs at all in this. I think blindly getting an Ebay like that every game would be unnecessary though. I would only advise on getting it earlier if the Protoss goes for a double gas opening and not an expansion though.
wouldn't say getting an ebay early is a bad thing. you could do a nice timing attack with +1/stim/CS around the 10 min mark instead of going 1/1 at 11+
Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while.
On January 31 2012 14:48 Azzur wrote: This is just a very standard 1-rax FE into 3-rax into factory-starport. This is just the most standard TvP build and hardly deserves a "Grobyc" name on it.
Other variations of the 1-rax FE include:
1-rax FE into 3-rax ghost 1-rax FE into 3-rax ebay 1-rax FE into double refinery tech etc.
So give me a link to a guide on this variation? I'd like to see it hit at the same timing with the same amount of units and same infrastructure (2 reactors, 1 tech lab, reactor medivacs, +1/+1 coming @ 10 minutes). Thanks for the not so constructive feedback.
New build order demo replayed has been posted, along with a new intro video based off it (still processing on youtube, should take 5-15 minutes). I'm feeling much better about this updated version. You were right about the double Ebays, I had to delay them a decent amount, although +1/+1 still starts at just past the 10 minute mark with double medivac production, and stim + combat shields, which I consider moderately fast for TvP.
Now I mostly need to look at playing some good games with the refined version which I will post as they come, thanks for all the feedback.
The only problem I see with this build is if they get out collus you're going to be too marine heavy. Also the only deviation I see in this build from the standard 1rax FE is that instead of 2 tech lab/1 reactor you go for 1 tech lab/2 reactor. Am I wrong?
A timing I find helpful is if the scv which makes the barracks, makes the 2nd supply depot immediately after, if you rally it to the expansion minerals (after the depot) when it finishes mining a stack of minerals it will have the 400 for the command centre. This saves scv travel time and helps optimise. You ought to mention you need a bunker either directly before or after the 2nd and 3rd rax otherwise stalker harass will do way too much damage.
I am concerned that you will die to almost any 1base all-in because of the low number of rax and the amount of time the rax are tied up building so many add ons. That said I think it should set you up for a nice timing with the first 2 medivacs.
On January 31 2012 21:00 Jimmy Raynor wrote: How do you support so fast medivacs + upgrades? I think that you either have to cut SCVs or army production to support that.
It's possible, check the replay. I never cut SCVs the whole game and my Barrack were idle no more than 5% of the time.
On January 31 2012 22:28 BigJoe wrote: The only problem I see with this build is if they get out collus you're going to be too marine heavy. Also the only deviation I see in this build from the standard 1rax FE is that instead of 2 tech lab/1 reactor you go for 1 tech lab/2 reactor. Am I wrong?
Yes, it is very marine heavy. It plays a very aggressive style meant to pick apart the Protoss and trade armies in small-medium engagements. It hits before Protoss will have any more than 1 Colossus and no thermal lance, so I think at that point you can drop a tech lab on your factory and swap it with one of the reactored Barracks to go more Marauder heavy. Looking at Liquipedia's 1 rax FE (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE), it doesn't even go in to detail past the 21 supply mark where you make 2 more Barracks, so unless I'm missing something, I don't have much to compare to. One of the main features of the build is the fast double reactors, combat shields timings, and upgrades to follow, but of course it is similar to other 1 Rax FEs other than that. More reactors means more Marines, and while they aren't amazing against Colossus, I think it works out just fine if you are very aggressive and do a half decent job microing. Considering he would potentially only have 1 Colossus without range, you have plenty of time to adapt and add tech labs.
On January 31 2012 23:50 statikg wrote: I am concerned that you will die to almost any 1base all-in because of the low number of rax and the amount of time the rax are tied up building so many add ons. That said I think it should set you up for a nice timing with the first 2 medivacs.
Perhaps it's weak, but I think you should be able to determine if he is going 1 base allin in advance. The game plan changes completely if he hasn't expanded. At that point you would keep your second orbital in your main and make 2 bunkers, and cancel addons for more Marines early.
On February 01 2012 00:31 Grobyc wrote: Yes, it is very marine heavy. It plays a very aggressive style meant to pick apart the Protoss and trade armies in small-medium engagements. It hits before Protoss will have any more than 1 Colossus and no thermal lance, so I think at that point you can drop a tech lab on your factory and swap it with one of the reactored Barracks to go more Marauder heavy. Looking at Liquipedia's 1 rax FE (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE), it doesn't even go in to detail past the 21 supply mark where you make 2 more Barracks, so unless I'm missing something, I don't have much to compare to. One of the main features of the build is the fast double reactors, combat shields timings, and upgrades to follow, but of course it is similar to other 1 Rax FEs other than that. More reactors means more Marines, and while they aren't amazing against Colossus, I think it works out just fine if you are very aggressive and do a half decent job microing. Considering he would potentially only have 1 Colossus without range, you have plenty of time to adapt and add tech labs. Perhaps it's weak, but I think you should be able to determine if he is going 1 base allin in advance. The game plan changes completely if he hasn't expanded. At that point you would keep your second orbital in your main and make 2 bunkers, and cancel addons for more Marines early.
Liquipedia links to Day9 Daily #321 with analysis from Dignitas.SeleCT, Startale.Bomber and Slayers.Ganzi doing 1Rax FE and they all go for 2 tech lab/1reactor. The daily also goes through a bunch of variations of it too which is really nice (fast medivac, fast upgrade etc..). I just assumed it was the standard.
I think the fastest double medivac timing shown in the daily was close to 9m which is when the threat for collus arises. Your build seems to wait for medivacs before pushing out which doesn't make use out of the early stim research. What situations do you think you could move out before medivacs? You also suggest that if combat shield isnt finished its a good idea to wait and move out with 4 medivacs which I personally feel is really dangerous if he is going collus (whether its fast collus or not). I guess if you keep him pinned in his base for a while with double drop harrass you can buy some time to make vikings though. With double tech lab you can also research two upgrades at a time which is nice. What do you think?
I actually haven't seen that daily, I'll definitely take a look and compare though. I'll post my thoughts on the differences tonight after I take a look, thanks.
As for waiting for combat shields + another 2 medivacs, I should be more clear on that. Right now I just said "it can be a good idea", but I didn't really go in to detail. It would definitely be better to attack early on and use the 3rd and 4th medivacs for multipronged drops to reinforce your first pair. If he does get colossus that fast he really won't have many units to deal with all the drops.
On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote: Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while. .
He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done.
Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following:
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more
On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote: Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while. .
He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done.
Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following:
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote: Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while. .
He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done.
Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following:
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
i agree with you. the point was to let the OP know that pushing the engineering bay up earlier for a +1 timing attack doesn't cripple your production and force a weaker push at around the 11 minute mark (which is pretty late IMHO). if anything, against protoss, earlier upgrades can make a big difference as protoss can double upgrade very quickly.
by the way, Grobyc, earlier engineering bay isn't purely for the anti-cheese, but for also for upgrade advantages. also, in thorzain's build, he already starts his 3rd CC on his 10 minute push. it would be a good idea to include how you will transition if your 11minute push fails to win you the game.
On February 01 2012 03:08 Moosy wrote: Kind of all in. If you don't do damage marine tech is bad later into the game.
Wrong. Watch Puma for example, he builds a lot of marines throughout the whole game. 2 Marines actually do more damage to armored units than a marauder. The problem is to keep the marines alive, that needs good micro, especially ghost- and viking-control.
I tried this build in master league today against some decent protoss players and they didn't even survive the push at 11 minutes. Forcefields didn't help them because of simple medivac drop into main and then attack at the natural. I really like this opening with the 2 reactors, it gives a very huge army early in the game and with decent control an incredibly hard to hold push. The only problem I see is if the push doesn't do enough damage and if the toss is ahead in upgrades. Since that didn't happen in my games i actually don't know if you're that far behind after the push.
Overall I really like the build, it gave me 4 easy wins out of 4 games against Protoss today
Factory after tl +stim, then other tl and reactor imo. You do it for the fast medivacs so better make them real fast ^^ Don't really agree with the double reactor on the raxes, you'll end up to marine heavy in most cases.
Anyone else have a problem with him putting his name on what appears to be a standard TvP? Its nice of you to post, but trying to name it after yourself is a bit unfair.
Anyone else have a problem with him putting his name on what appears to be a standard TvP? Its nice of you to post, but trying to name it after yourself is a bit unfair.
I actually don't understand what everyone has got against putting the name to some build order. It isn't revolutionary but it is something new and personally I don't mind calling the build order Grobyc's.
Factory after tl +stim, then other tl and reactor imo. You do it for the fast medivacs so better make them real fast ^^ Don't really agree with the double reactor on the raxes, you'll end up to marine heavy in most cases.
It's exactly the marine-heavy part of this build that makes it a really good timing push. Just try it against a protoss on your level and if you execute it the right way you'll probably be really successful with it.
Another problem for me is you have so many marines but you can't get CS and stim in time for a early push and you also have to make a decision to sacrifice conc shells in order to speed up your hit or wait for it and that just delays your 3rd upgrade even more, its just hard to get the infantry upgrades you really need without 2 tech labs.
I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I've been looking for a well written 1 rax FE build against Toss (so I can stop 1/1/1ing and actually get better at TvP), and this looks very promising. Will definitely be trying it out in my games.
Also just to weigh in, who cares if he puts his name on it? It's just his take on a particular opening.
On February 01 2012 03:08 Moosy wrote: Kind of all in. If you don't do damage marine tech is bad later into the game.
I disagree. I don't think it takes long at all to swap your reactored barracks with tech labs, and the colossus count at that point is going to be low enough where you'll have the time to stall with drops. You also already have a reactored starport and 4 medivacs, so starting double viking production at that point isn't out of the question either.
On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote: Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while. .
He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done.
Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following:
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more
Whether my guide here is weaker than Thorzain's, I don't know, as I haven't seen that daily yet either. As you can see in the intro video, at 10:45, while I am moving out to attack, I have 38 marines (less than TZ), 4 medivacs (more than TZ), 6 marauders (more than TZ), and cs + stim (no +1 attack yet). Considering this is against Protoss and not Terran, we've lost the tank(s), but have 6 marauders, 2 more medivacs, and CS + stim with +1/+1 25% done. For TvP I would rather have the latter personally. Regardless I'll take a look and post my thoughts tonight. I honestly just can't fathom getting any more out any faster than I put together yesterday. Either way, thanks for the feedback.
On January 31 2012 16:29 Grobyc wrote: Mmm I don't think so. After playing around with the build the past few hours I haven't been able to get the engineering bays in until starting the 3rd and 4th medivacs. There just isn't room for even one without delaying medivacs or stim. I don't even think you can get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes and half the amount of units that you get out of this (although if you can provide a replay of it I'll consider making changes). I feel the 11 minute timing is much stronger, and I wouldn't give it up just to get an ebay every game. You should be able to tell he's doing something cheesy like that from poking at his front, in which case you can then make an engineering bay and even keep your second OC in your base for a while. .
He moves out at the 10 minute mark with 2 medivacs and 40+ marines with CS done and +1 attack/stim almost done. They complete close to the 10:30 mark. If you freeze the video at 10 minutes, you'll see that at 10:45, thorzain has 50 marines, 2 medivacs and a tank with cs/+1 attack/stim all done.
Speaking of which, you say that you cant even get half the units if you get +1/stim/CS by 10 minutes. Your units are the following:
It hits at a timing where Protoss is weak and needs to decide how he is going to deal with bio units in the midgame. 2-4 medivacs, a few marauders, and 30+ marines with stim can be deadly for Protoss in the midgame if they don’t know where and how to fight their battles.
considering at 10:45 thorzain had those units, at 11m, he'd have 55+ marines, 2 medivacs with 2 more on the way, 1+ tanks and stim/cs/+1 attack all done. So it's very possible to have more
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
What do you mean by "metagame timing attack"? There's no metagame to this as far as I can see, it's just a set of timings in game. As far as I know metagame has to do with things that don't directly affect the game, such as "oh shit, this guy DT rushed me 3 times in a row, I bet he's DT rushing me again now", even though there's nothing about that game that technically invokes a thought like that. Either way, Protoss are generally weak around this time of the game, and just because they may know it's coming doesn't mean it's any less deadly.
On February 01 2012 03:08 Moosy wrote: Kind of all in. If you don't do damage marine tech is bad later into the game.
Wrong. Watch Puma for example, he builds a lot of marines throughout the whole game. 2 Marines actually do more damage to armored units than a marauder. The problem is to keep the marines alive, that needs good micro, especially ghost- and viking-control.
I tried this build in master league today against some decent protoss players and they didn't even survive the push at 11 minutes. Forcefields didn't help them because of simple medivac drop into main and then attack at the natural. I really like this opening with the 2 reactors, it gives a very huge army early in the game and with decent control an incredibly hard to hold push. The only problem I see is if the push doesn't do enough damage and if the toss is ahead in upgrades. Since that didn't happen in my games i actually don't know if you're that far behind after the push.
Overall I really like the build, it gave me 4 easy wins out of 4 games against Protoss today
Glad to hear that, thanks . Today or tomorrow I'll probably add a section on the late game (12 minutes+ anyway).
On February 01 2012 05:06 Arcanefrost wrote: Factory after tl +stim, then other tl and reactor imo. You do it for the fast medivacs so better make them real fast ^^ Don't really agree with the double reactor on the raxes, you'll end up to marine heavy in most cases.
The aim of this build focuses on heavy amounts of marines on purpose. There still might be better ways to execute it though, so I'm still looking in to optimizing it as much as possible.
On February 01 2012 06:14 statikg wrote: Another problem for me is you have so many marines but you can't get CS and stim in time for a early push and you also have to make a decision to sacrifice conc shells in order to speed up your hit or wait for it and that just delays your 3rd upgrade even more, its just hard to get the infantry upgrades you really need without 2 tech labs.
This may be true. Like I've just mentioned to Arcanefrost, I'm still optimizing at the moment, so I might find a different order that yields better results. Since there are so many more marines than marauders, I would rarely wait until concussive shells finishes to attack. It's meant to come after in order to get combat shields done.
I was trying a lot of 1 rax gasless expands but i couldnt find one that feel right to me. Most of the time i went to quick with the EB or ghost .
I really think that focussing on doing attacks when stim finisching or medivacs into +1 +1 attack really do alot
this built feels very nice.
I have only 1 problem i see with this built and that is the standard stalker + zealot poke at your front. Or worse... a stalker poke. Because of not building that stop in building marines i feel a bit afraid of that. so on a small map i wouldn't do this built. but on a big one no problem.
You're right, on a smaller map you need to be more careful and likely throw up a bunker. I didn't in my intro VOD as Antiga is a great map for this because of the size and positioning of the natural (and because there was no opponent lol). Happy to see you're enjoying it though.
I updated a few more sections of the OP as well to make some things more clear. Continuing to add to it~
Yea i hadnt noticed no bunker. I bunker literally ever 1 rax expo i do (always to the low ground though)
Great build overall, i think most of us seem to 1 rax FE into 3 rax and just kinda have a general idea of what to do but nothing specific. Its nice to finally have a solid guide of the timing attack ive been looking for.
That's what I've been doing up until recently lol. Expo -> make reactored starport + 2-4 barracks in some arbitrary order and hope it works out. Surprisingly, it works a lot of the time, but it works much more when you give it proper structure.
Yea it seems the whole 'im sure this will be fine' attitude is very common. It seems to lead to sometimes missing a timing though such as hitting against 2 colossi not 1 etc. A nice structure keeps you on track
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
What do you mean by "metagame timing attack"? There's no metagame to this as far as I can see, it's just a set of timings in game. As far as I know metagame has to do with things that don't directly affect the game, such as "oh shit, this guy DT rushed me 3 times in a row, I bet he's DT rushing me again now", even though there's nothing about that game that technically invokes a thought like that. Either way, Protoss are generally weak around this time of the game, and just because they may know it's coming doesn't mean it's any less deadly.
What I mean by metagame timing is a general sense players who play alot have of how a standard matchup "generally" progresses. In basically every standard TvP the terran tries an attack with either the first 2 medivacs or the first 4 at the latest. You are saying that protoss are generally weak around this time, I am saying that they are making adjustments to their builds/unit positioning ect. to minimize or reverse this particular weakness and if they know its coming does in fact mean that it is less deadly.
However if you can get out more units then they are used to seeing (for example by making 2 reactors instead of 2 tech labs) then the defences prepared in advance may be insufficient. That is one way to try to get ahead of the metagame if the extra units are worth the loss of an upgrade (maybe my understanding of the term is flawed).
Whether my guide here is weaker than Thorzain's, I don't know, as I haven't seen that daily yet either. As you can see in the intro video, at 10:45, while I am moving out to attack, I have 38 marines (less than TZ), 4 medivacs (more than TZ), 6 marauders (more than TZ), and cs + stim (no +1 attack yet). Considering this is against Protoss and not Terran, we've lost the tank(s), but have 6 marauders, 2 more medivacs, and CS + stim with +1/+1 25% done. For TvP I would rather have the latter personally. Regardless I'll take a look and post my thoughts tonight. I honestly just can't fathom getting any more out any faster than I put together yesterday. Either way, thanks for the feedback.
I think you're missing the point... doesn't matter of TZ's build is better (or vice versa). You said it was not possible to get +1/CS/stim at around 10, and even if that were the case, you'd be hard pressed to get even half the units that you got with your build. The main argument being that pushing for earlier engineering bay would cripple your push by suggesting that the early bay/tech would cut your amy production by half. From TZ's example, this is not the case. You could get your engineering bay at the 6:30 minute mark (much earlier) and still have similarly strong army, and it doesn't need to be a blind anti-cheese reaction.
As for whether the 50 upgraded marines w/ 2 medivacs is stronger/weaker than 38 marines + 6 marauders + 4 medivacs... it really depends on unit composition of toss and the terrain, but I think 50 marines with +1 attack against toss has a pretty large DPS advantage over 38 marines and 6 marauders, especially if your plan is to win the match with this push.
On February 01 2012 08:19 yeaR wrote: Another Standard build that someone has put their name on.
Did you even read the thread? That was already brought up and I wouldn't call this "standard"; it's just my take on one of the many variations and paths you can take after a 1 Rax FE. Is it really such a big deal where it should be renamed Grobyc’s 1 Rax FE guide? I don't see this specific guide written anywhere else, and I wrote it, so that makes me the author, no? I'm not claiming to have invented 1 Rax FE or the [only] 3 Rax followup, it's just a guide.
On February 01 2012 08:19 yeaR wrote: Another Standard build that someone has put their name on.
Did you even read the thread? That was already brought up and I wouldn't call this "standard"; it's just my take on one of the many variations and paths you can take after a 1 Rax FE. Is it really such a big deal where it should be renamed Grobyc’s 1 Rax FE guide? I don't see this specific guide written anywhere else, and I wrote it, so that makes me the author, no? I'm not claiming to have invented 1 Rax FE or the [only] 3 Rax followup, it's just a guide.
hehe... disregard these guys. just haters.. that's all. i think it's cool you wrote a guide. i would if i weren't so lazy
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
What do you mean by "metagame timing attack"? There's no metagame to this as far as I can see, it's just a set of timings in game. As far as I know metagame has to do with things that don't directly affect the game, such as "oh shit, this guy DT rushed me 3 times in a row, I bet he's DT rushing me again now", even though there's nothing about that game that technically invokes a thought like that. Either way, Protoss are generally weak around this time of the game, and just because they may know it's coming doesn't mean it's any less deadly.
What I mean by metagame timing is a general sense players who play alot have of how a standard matchup "generally" progresses. In basically every standard TvP the terran tries an attack with either the first 2 medivacs or the first 4 at the latest. You are saying that protoss are generally weak around this time, I am saying that they are making adjustments to their builds/unit positioning ect. to minimize or reverse this particular weakness and if they know its coming does in fact mean that it is less deadly.
However if you can get out more units then they are used to seeing (for example by making 2 reactors instead of 2 tech labs) then the defences prepared in advance may be insufficient. That is one way to try to get ahead of the metagame if the extra units are worth the loss of an upgrade (maybe my understanding of the term is flawed).
Okay, I understand what you are saying now, but I still can't help but disagree with some of it. Just because Protosses are refining their play/builds does not directly affect the strength of this attack. Sure, they may be accustomed to having to defend an attack this like at that point in the game, but it doesn't "counter" it in that sense. I suppose you aren't saying a mid game push doesn't work because of this, but that's what I thought you were saying initially. Ultimately, I still think there is still damage to be done and things that the build achieves.
Whether my guide here is weaker than Thorzain's, I don't know, as I haven't seen that daily yet either. As you can see in the intro video, at 10:45, while I am moving out to attack, I have 38 marines (less than TZ), 4 medivacs (more than TZ), 6 marauders (more than TZ), and cs + stim (no +1 attack yet). Considering this is against Protoss and not Terran, we've lost the tank(s), but have 6 marauders, 2 more medivacs, and CS + stim with +1/+1 25% done. For TvP I would rather have the latter personally. Regardless I'll take a look and post my thoughts tonight. I honestly just can't fathom getting any more out any faster than I put together yesterday. Either way, thanks for the feedback.
I think you're missing the point... doesn't matter of TZ's build is better (or vice versa). You said it was not possible to get +1/CS/stim at around 10, and even if that were the case, you'd be hard pressed to get even half the units that you got with your build. The main argument being that pushing for earlier engineering bay would cripple your push by suggesting that the early bay/tech would cut your amy production by half. From TZ's example, this is not the case. You could get your engineering bay at the 6:30 minute mark (much earlier) and still have similarly strong army, and it doesn't need to be a blind anti-cheese reaction.
As for whether the 50 upgraded marines w/ 2 medivacs is stronger/weaker than 38 marines + 6 marauders + 4 medivacs... it really depends on unit composition of toss and the terrain, but I think 50 marines with +1 attack against toss has a pretty large DPS advantage over 38 marines and 6 marauders, especially if your plan is to win the match with this push.
You're right here. I was exaggerating pretty heavily when I said you wouldn't have half the units. I'm not saying I don't like TZ's build, but I would still prefer the marauder-added composition you get from this against Protoss over the fast engineering bay. I see your point (now lol) about it not having to be a blind anti-cheese reaction to incorporate it, but I don't feel that it's overly difficult to stop DTs when opening with this either. I think I'm definitely going to give his build a try in TvT though ^_^
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
What do you mean by "metagame timing attack"? There's no metagame to this as far as I can see, it's just a set of timings in game. As far as I know metagame has to do with things that don't directly affect the game, such as "oh shit, this guy DT rushed me 3 times in a row, I bet he's DT rushing me again now", even though there's nothing about that game that technically invokes a thought like that. Either way, Protoss are generally weak around this time of the game, and just because they may know it's coming doesn't mean it's any less deadly.
What I mean by metagame timing is a general sense players who play alot have of how a standard matchup "generally" progresses. In basically every standard TvP the terran tries an attack with either the first 2 medivacs or the first 4 at the latest. You are saying that protoss are generally weak around this time, I am saying that they are making adjustments to their builds/unit positioning ect. to minimize or reverse this particular weakness and if they know its coming does in fact mean that it is less deadly.
However if you can get out more units then they are used to seeing (for example by making 2 reactors instead of 2 tech labs) then the defences prepared in advance may be insufficient. That is one way to try to get ahead of the metagame if the extra units are worth the loss of an upgrade (maybe my understanding of the term is flawed).
Okay, I understand what you are saying now, but I still can't help but disagree with some of it. Just because Protosses are refining their play/builds does not directly affect the strength of this attack. Sure, they may be accustomed to having to defend an attack this like at that point in the game, but it doesn't "counter" it in that sense. I suppose you aren't saying a mid game push doesn't work because of this, but that's what I thought you were saying initially. Ultimately, I still think there is still damage to be done and things that the build achieves.
Let me give you an example of why I think that you may be wrong on this one and why I am worried about your timing in general. This is just one example so obviously the game may not progress in this manner. In the far past, terran timing attacks used to aim for about 10-10:30 because 2 base collosus generally came out around 11minutes. Now however, its not uncommon at all for a collosus to be popping near to 10minutes to counter exactly that and if you don't hit til just after 11minutes it could be even 2 collosus with cronoboosts. Against 2 collsus with 2 reactor raxes, your fked. Against 1 your in trouble if he has good micro but you might be able to do some damage if you split him up. Now this timing would obviously work alot better against a gateway heavy protoss player so I'm not saying your plan is not workable, just that some strategies ~ which are fairly common, would give it trouble from my not inconsiderable experience.
Okay, I see. If you go with the earlier timing (leave base at 9:45~) then he should have at most 1 colossus (no range) when you get there, which I think shouldn't be too hard to deal with. Now, let's say he holds on without taking too much damage. He may give you a bit of trouble if you make a bad engagement head on, but I think you can still harass him with drops and counters to delay until you have a few more marauders/rax+tech lab. It surely wouldn't be the easiest thing to play against, but I don't think I could say he's able to win outright because of it. Back to the metagame though, I think that's also something that is constantly changing, so it's not a terrible thing; I've been noticing a lot of quick 3rd bases for example. After all, this might not fare against a fast 2 base colossus as well as some builds, but the extra marine count is also something this brings that 3 rax w/2 tech labs doesn't, which are tradeoffs for using one build over another. All in all, I see the concerns you've brought up, but I still think this is viable.
I'm hoping to play against a lot of different Protoss builds using this, so I hope I can provide some decent replays showcasing these scenarios. I'll continue to upload them as they come.
On February 01 2012 09:07 Grobyc wrote: Okay, I see. If you go with the earlier timing (leave base at 9:45~) then he should have at most 1 colossus (no range) when you get there, which I think shouldn't be too hard to deal with. Now, let's say he holds on without taking too much damage. He may give you a bit of trouble if you make a bad engagement head on, but I think you can still harass him with drops and counters to delay until you have a few more marauders/rax+tech lab. It surely wouldn't be the easiest thing to play against, but I don't think I could say he's able to win outright because of it. Back to the metagame though, I think that's also something that is constantly changing, so it's not a terrible thing; I've been noticing a lot of quick 3rd bases for example. After all, this might not fare against a fast 2 base colossus as well as some builds, but the extra marine count is also something this brings that 3 rax w/2 tech labs doesn't, which are tradeoffs for using one build over another. All in all, I see the concerns you've brought up, but I still think this is viable.
I'm hoping to play against a lot of different Protoss builds using this, so I hope I can provide some decent replays showcasing these scenarios. I'll continue to upload them as they come.
I definitely think it is viable and that you should continue testing it. I am just trying to mentally stress test the build with you here to help you optimize your build and its goals.
Hi Grobyc! Overall the guide proper is well laid out, crisply written and unambiguous-- good work in presenting the material.
I like this build. I usually go for two tech labs instead of two reactors, but I think I'll give this a try and see how it does. Marines are pretty baller, Medivacs are also pretty baller. I'll let you know if I run into any weirdness, but fundamentally this build looks solid. I'll see if my ladder experience agrees with my theorycraft.
On February 01 2012 04:55 Yello wrote: Wrong. Watch Puma for example, he builds a lot of marines throughout the whole game. 2 Marines actually do more damage to armored units than a marauder.
True, but don't forget armor issues:
Dps for a stimmed Marauder against an armored target = 20 (18 if Guardian Shield) / 19 on armor (17 if GS) Dps for 2 stimmed Marines against a target = ~21 but “only” 14 if GS / 17,45 on armor but “only” ~10,5 if GS
Guardian Shield and/or additional armor upgrades heavily reduce Marines' damage output, which is not that much the case with Marauders against armored targets. Since at this point in the game, the Protoss player will have several Sentries which should be able to cast Guardian Shield, you have to look at those values. Besides, Marauders still have slightly more health than 2 Marines, and they have one more range.
On February 01 2012 14:08 Techno wrote: How do you defend 4 gate warp prism?
Just as you would if you were doing any other kind of 3 rax. Pull your natural CC in to your main, make a bunker at the top of your ramp, cancel the reactors to produce marines immediately. Just like any other 3 rax, chances are you may have to pull a few SCVs. You'll still build your tech lab for some marauders and stim, but you'lll have to delay your factory a little bit until you're able to land your orbital at your natural.
On February 01 2012 14:08 Techno wrote: How do you play if he denies all scouting?
There's virtually no way they can deny all scouting. Having a certain amount of a certain unit composition at specific times tells you a lot about what he's doing, as well as you should be in his base early enough to see something odd like a fast double gas. Poking at him with your army forces him to reveal his, and indirectly tells you what he could be doing. Even if you want to be 100% sure you can always scan him around 5:40 with the energy of your second orbital that finishes.
No expansion? Stay in your main, make a bunker 4 gateways? Same thing 3 gate double gas? Voids or DTs, stay in your main with a bunker. Make a turret or two.
Of course all these things brings the build to a bit of a halt, but that's no problem if our opponent is allin.
Today I'm going to be looking at incorporating a single engineering bay earlier on for +1 attack in the timing as well as in case of DTs. If everything works out as it is in my head we will have 3 medivacs, +1 attack, combat shields, stim, and the same amount of marine marauder as before. Basically we would be going for the same 10:30 4 medivac timing still, but instead, replacing one of the medivacs with +1 attack. This makes the attack a bit stronger as well as it gives us an engineering bay in time for DTs at the expense of 1 medivac.
On February 02 2012 02:24 Grobyc wrote: Today I'm going to be looking at incorporating a single engineering bay earlier on for +1 attack in the timing as well as in case of DTs. If everything works out as it is in my head we will have 3 medivacs, +1 attack, combat shields, stim, and the same amount of marine marauder as before. Basically we would be going for the same 10:30 4 medivac timing still, but instead, replacing one of the medivacs with +1 attack. This makes the attack a bit stronger as well as it gives us an engineering bay in time for DTs at the expense of 1 medivac.
Great build. thx for posting it. What time do you build ebay in this case?
On February 02 2012 04:28 Grobyc wrote: I'm thinking around the same time the starport starts, but don't quote me on that yet. I'll update the build when I know for sure tonight.
you could try putting it down while the factory is still building. really depends on the gas timing since you want to start the upgrade as soon as your ebay is done. i'm thinking it wont be too big of an issue since you'll be mining 3 gas from both your refineries, and by the time you build your factory, you'll only have maybe 2~3 marauders out, which isn't a huge gas investment.
On February 01 2012 14:08 Techno wrote: How do you defend 4 gate warp prism?
Just as you would if you were doing any other kind of 3 rax. Pull your natural CC in to your main, make a bunker at the top of your ramp, cancel the reactors to produce marines immediately. Just like any other 3 rax, chances are you may have to pull a few SCVs. You'll still build your tech lab for some marauders and stim, but you'lll have to delay your factory a little bit until you're able to land your orbital at your natural.
On February 01 2012 14:08 Techno wrote: How do you play if he denies all scouting?
There's virtually no way they can deny all scouting. Having a certain amount of a certain unit composition at specific times tells you a lot about what he's doing, as well as you should be in his base early enough to see something odd like a fast double gas. Poking at him with your army forces him to reveal his, and indirectly tells you what he could be doing. Even if you want to be 100% sure you can always scan him around 5:40 with the energy of your second orbital that finishes.
No expansion? Stay in your main, make a bunker 4 gateways? Same thing 3 gate double gas? Voids or DTs, stay in your main with a bunker. Make a turret or two.
Of course all these things brings the build to a bit of a halt, but that's no problem if our opponent is allin.
Bullshit. Look at the 4gg vs Core game on Bel'shir. First, the P can mindgame you, so you will never be 100% sure between 4gate and 1gate FE - exception being if he shows you the nexus. 4gg barely holds 4gate with NO GAS 4rax. Good luck holding that if you cap your gasses.
Hey, I was trying this build on the sc2 planner because I couldn't get it to work right in YABOT. For anyone who might be interested, the most optimal version of the build (as described in OP, and only to the 10:00 mark) is here:
Obviously, this isn't realistic in ladder play but it gives you an idea of what it's capable of. The way the supply depots are done is pretty optimal, but you wouldn't be able to manage this in a normal game for example.I think I like this build Grobyc, consider it yoinked.
EDIT: changed the build to get the expansion gases slightly earlier which allows for faster combat shield
Empire.Kas did almost the same opening in the NASTL against Mana, he delayed the Factory a little bit for a faster single E-Bay. In my opinion he actually failed with a 9.30 minute push, he just smashed his head into a wall of forcefields before he had medivacs. I think if he had the medivacs with his army he could have actually done a lot of damage to Mana, who went for a fast third.
On February 04 2012 04:05 Yello wrote: Empire.Kas did almost the same opening in the NASTL against Mana, he delayed the Factory a little bit for a faster single E-Bay. In my opinion he actually failed with a 9.30 minute push, he just smashed his head into a wall of forcefields before he had medivacs. I think if he had the medivacs with his army he could have actually done a lot of damage to Mana, who went for a fast third.
Yeah! I've been watching his stream recently and I guess he's stumbled upon the same sort of build our friend Grobyc did. Veeery similar, and its much to Kas' style. Very aggressive playstyle with drops. He also uses this same basic opener but doesnt get mauraders vs Terran. Instead masses marines and starts to drop, then starts on his tank count. Very neat!
1. MOST OF THE TIME you should bunker on 21, around 4:00. A zealot stalker poke will significantly hurt you, and honestly it's worth it in all cases unless he goes nexus first or nexus before stalker (20nex). 2. Get stim before adding other addons, and IMO you shouldn't go double reactor, but I guess it's "viable". 3. I usually add an ebay around 6:30 for a quick +1, and start the factory right after +1. Fac around 7:30. You'll need to add up to 3/4 gas earlier - I'll usually get the 3rd gas before fac and 4th before port, adding an armory and a port and a second ebay when the fac finishes.
Also, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS scan the protoss main ~8min. (the timing of the scan is usually ~7:49 based on energy). If you see no robo and 4+ gates, be concerned. If you see 3 gates and no other buildings, be slightly concerned, because it's quite possible there are more gates hidden. If you see a robo bay or dual forges going up, push out and aim to hit his base around 9:00 (stim will finish then and you can start concussive on 2nd tech lab to finish at same time with my build) and if it's not shakuras you should be able to do damage.
The problem I have with dual reactor is honestly marines with no combat shields and no medivacs die SO fast in the presence of forcefield. The dual reactor basically accomplishes nothing, and a second tech lab allows you to build up more marauders (optimal against everything but charge zealots) and get concussive for some pressure at ~9:00.
My build is not "optimal" nor is it the only way to do it, but I feel after testing variations extensively that this is most suited to deal with everything.
I've noticed a lot of Protosses getting really aggressive with the first stalker and zealot actually, and I've dropped a game or two this week because of it. I've never really thought the stim comes too late myself. Since we aren't in a position to really move out until medivacs and a bigger army it's simply to help defend, which I think can be compensated for with bunkers if he's going allin. The ebay part, I'm still working on, and will have it revised by the end of the week. Basically I agree with your 1 and 3, but I don't see big enough problems with the stim timing to change the build soley for that.
In my opinion, research combat shields first if you plan to be aggressive because the extra health goes very far when your early composition is mostly marines. Get stim first if you don't plan to be aggressive because the stim will help you defend early gateway pressure before medivacs come out. Once you have medivacs, you will be able to run over most pressure that isn't an all-in.
I'm also not convinced about the reactors though. I think I'd rather delay them and put them down instead of a supply depot when I throw down my third CC.
On February 07 2012 08:38 Fuhrmaaj wrote: In my opinion, research combat shields first if you plan to be aggressive because the extra health goes very far when your early composition is mostly marines. Get stim first if you don't plan to be aggressive because the stim will help you defend early gateway pressure before medivacs come out. Once you have medivacs, you will be able to run over most pressure that isn't an all-in.
I'm also not convinced about the reactors though. I think I'd rather delay them and put them down instead of a supply depot when I throw down my third CC.
i like to go combat shields first too. +1 w/ combat shields is great before medivacs
Revised build with +1 infantry weapons, combat shields, stim. Leaves base at 9:50 mark, hits opponent at 10:25-10:55 depending on rush distance. I'll be doing a new video for the revised build as soon as I can fix my stupid mic :/
http://drop.sc/106975 Changes: - New timing. Leaves base at 9:50. - Features +1 infantry weapons, stim packs, and combat shields - Dropped the 2-4 marauders that were in the attack before. They weren't overly important and we didn't have concussive shells at that point anyway. - Army composes of ~35-40 marines and 2 medivacs - Bunker at the front just past the 4:00 mark to fixed the issue of Protoss being aggressive with initial Stalker and Zealot - Scan added around 6:00 mark for extra safety
honestly - this build is not going to work. What do you plan to do when any protoss with an observer just scouts you.. specially seeing two reactors hes just going to rush to storm with force fields on his ramp or delays the push with forcefields until his colossi pops? you arent attacking til 9:50 which means he will have basically unlimited force fields to block his ramp and once that colossi is out, you have a ton of useless units and will get a) killed out right or B) he throws down more gates and just all ins you with 2 colossi and a ton of gateway units. Marines are completely awful past the 9-10 minute mark as many have said in the thread.
Sadly blizzard made the matchup revolve around the marauderp and vikings for terran. If you fuck up either compositions you lose. Not to mention if you get messed with before the push, the timing is thrown off even by 30 in-game seconds and its even less of a chance you will do damage. <o/
You know the medivacs largely for dropping right? I've been having lots of success with it so far, and something like it has been used by Kas in a pro game as stated already, so that gives me hope. It's also near impossible for him to move out in the 11-14 minute period due to the threat of drops and counters, so that buys time to pump dual reactor vikings or get ghosts and start massing marauders if need be. I don't think you are giving it credit where its strength lies.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BOgGr.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BtjHr.png)
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