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thx grobyc,
I was trying a lot of 1 rax gasless expands but i couldnt find one that feel right to me.
Most of the time i went to quick with the EB or ghost .
I really think that focussing on doing attacks when stim finisching or medivacs into +1 +1 attack really do alot
this built feels very nice.
I have only 1 problem i see with this built and that is the standard stalker + zealot poke at your front.
Or worse... a stalker poke. Because of not building that stop in building marines i feel a bit afraid of that.
so on a small map i wouldn't do this built. but on a big one no problem.
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You're right, on a smaller map you need to be more careful and likely throw up a bunker. I didn't in my intro VOD as Antiga is a great map for this because of the size and positioning of the natural (and because there was no opponent lol). Happy to see you're enjoying it though.
I updated a few more sections of the OP as well to make some things more clear. Continuing to add to it~
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Yea i hadnt noticed no bunker. I bunker literally ever 1 rax expo i do (always to the low ground though)
Great build overall, i think most of us seem to 1 rax FE into 3 rax and just kinda have a general idea of what to do but nothing specific. Its nice to finally have a solid guide of the timing attack ive been looking for.
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That's what I've been doing up until recently lol. Expo -> make reactored starport + 2-4 barracks in some arbitrary order and hope it works out. Surprisingly, it works a lot of the time, but it works much more when you give it proper structure.
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Yea it seems the whole 'im sure this will be fine' attitude is very common. It seems to lead to sometimes missing a timing though such as hitting against 2 colossi not 1 etc. A nice structure keeps you on track
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Another Standard build that someone has put their name on.
User was warned for this post
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On February 01 2012 07:35 Grobyc wrote:
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
What do you mean by "metagame timing attack"? There's no metagame to this as far as I can see, it's just a set of timings in game. As far as I know metagame has to do with things that don't directly affect the game, such as "oh shit, this guy DT rushed me 3 times in a row, I bet he's DT rushing me again now", even though there's nothing about that game that technically invokes a thought like that. Either way, Protoss are generally weak around this time of the game, and just because they may know it's coming doesn't mean it's any less deadly.
What I mean by metagame timing is a general sense players who play alot have of how a standard matchup "generally" progresses. In basically every standard TvP the terran tries an attack with either the first 2 medivacs or the first 4 at the latest. You are saying that protoss are generally weak around this time, I am saying that they are making adjustments to their builds/unit positioning ect. to minimize or reverse this particular weakness and if they know its coming does in fact mean that it is less deadly.
However if you can get out more units then they are used to seeing (for example by making 2 reactors instead of 2 tech labs) then the defences prepared in advance may be insufficient. That is one way to try to get ahead of the metagame if the extra units are worth the loss of an upgrade (maybe my understanding of the term is flawed).
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On February 01 2012 07:35 Grobyc wrote:
Whether my guide here is weaker than Thorzain's, I don't know, as I haven't seen that daily yet either. As you can see in the intro video, at 10:45, while I am moving out to attack, I have 38 marines (less than TZ), 4 medivacs (more than TZ), 6 marauders (more than TZ), and cs + stim (no +1 attack yet). Considering this is against Protoss and not Terran, we've lost the tank(s), but have 6 marauders, 2 more medivacs, and CS + stim with +1/+1 25% done. For TvP I would rather have the latter personally. Regardless I'll take a look and post my thoughts tonight. I honestly just can't fathom getting any more out any faster than I put together yesterday. Either way, thanks for the feedback.
I think you're missing the point... doesn't matter of TZ's build is better (or vice versa). You said it was not possible to get +1/CS/stim at around 10, and even if that were the case, you'd be hard pressed to get even half the units that you got with your build. The main argument being that pushing for earlier engineering bay would cripple your push by suggesting that the early bay/tech would cut your amy production by half. From TZ's example, this is not the case. You could get your engineering bay at the 6:30 minute mark (much earlier) and still have similarly strong army, and it doesn't need to be a blind anti-cheese reaction.
As for whether the 50 upgraded marines w/ 2 medivacs is stronger/weaker than 38 marines + 6 marauders + 4 medivacs... it really depends on unit composition of toss and the terrain, but I think 50 marines with +1 attack against toss has a pretty large DPS advantage over 38 marines and 6 marauders, especially if your plan is to win the match with this push.
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On February 01 2012 08:19 yeaR wrote:
Another Standard build that someone has put their name on.
Did you even read the thread? That was already brought up and I wouldn't call this "standard"; it's just my take on one of the many variations and paths you can take after a 1 Rax FE. Is it really such a big deal where it should be renamed Grobyc’s 1 Rax FE guide? I don't see this specific guide written anywhere else, and I wrote it, so that makes me the author, no? I'm not claiming to have invented 1 Rax FE or the [only] 3 Rax followup, it's just a guide.
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On February 01 2012 08:31 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:19 yeaR wrote:
Another Standard build that someone has put their name on. Did you even read the thread? That was already brought up and I wouldn't call this "standard"; it's just my take on one of the many variations and paths you can take after a 1 Rax FE. Is it really such a big deal where it should be renamed Grobyc’s 1 Rax FE guide? I don't see this specific guide written anywhere else, and I wrote it, so that makes me the author, no? I'm not claiming to have invented 1 Rax FE or the [only] 3 Rax followup, it's just a guide.
hehe... disregard these guys. just haters.. that's all. i think it's cool you wrote a guide. i would if i weren't so lazy 
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On February 01 2012 08:24 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 07:35 Grobyc wrote:
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
What do you mean by "metagame timing attack"? There's no metagame to this as far as I can see, it's just a set of timings in game. As far as I know metagame has to do with things that don't directly affect the game, such as "oh shit, this guy DT rushed me 3 times in a row, I bet he's DT rushing me again now", even though there's nothing about that game that technically invokes a thought like that. Either way, Protoss are generally weak around this time of the game, and just because they may know it's coming doesn't mean it's any less deadly.
What I mean by metagame timing is a general sense players who play alot have of how a standard matchup "generally" progresses. In basically every standard TvP the terran tries an attack with either the first 2 medivacs or the first 4 at the latest. You are saying that protoss are generally weak around this time, I am saying that they are making adjustments to their builds/unit positioning ect. to minimize or reverse this particular weakness and if they know its coming does in fact mean that it is less deadly. However if you can get out more units then they are used to seeing (for example by making 2 reactors instead of 2 tech labs) then the defences prepared in advance may be insufficient. That is one way to try to get ahead of the metagame if the extra units are worth the loss of an upgrade (maybe my understanding of the term is flawed).
Okay, I understand what you are saying now, but I still can't help but disagree with some of it. Just because Protosses are refining their play/builds does not directly affect the strength of this attack. Sure, they may be accustomed to having to defend an attack this like at that point in the game, but it doesn't "counter" it in that sense. I suppose you aren't saying a mid game push doesn't work because of this, but that's what I thought you were saying initially. Ultimately, I still think there is still damage to be done and things that the build achieves.
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On February 01 2012 08:29 unix04 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 07:35 Grobyc wrote:
Whether my guide here is weaker than Thorzain's, I don't know, as I haven't seen that daily yet either. As you can see in the intro video, at 10:45, while I am moving out to attack, I have 38 marines (less than TZ), 4 medivacs (more than TZ), 6 marauders (more than TZ), and cs + stim (no +1 attack yet). Considering this is against Protoss and not Terran, we've lost the tank(s), but have 6 marauders, 2 more medivacs, and CS + stim with +1/+1 25% done. For TvP I would rather have the latter personally. Regardless I'll take a look and post my thoughts tonight. I honestly just can't fathom getting any more out any faster than I put together yesterday. Either way, thanks for the feedback. I think you're missing the point... doesn't matter of TZ's build is better (or vice versa). You said it was not possible to get +1/CS/stim at around 10, and even if that were the case, you'd be hard pressed to get even half the units that you got with your build. The main argument being that pushing for earlier engineering bay would cripple your push by suggesting that the early bay/tech would cut your amy production by half. From TZ's example, this is not the case. You could get your engineering bay at the 6:30 minute mark (much earlier) and still have similarly strong army, and it doesn't need to be a blind anti-cheese reaction. As for whether the 50 upgraded marines w/ 2 medivacs is stronger/weaker than 38 marines + 6 marauders + 4 medivacs... it really depends on unit composition of toss and the terrain, but I think 50 marines with +1 attack against toss has a pretty large DPS advantage over 38 marines and 6 marauders, especially if your plan is to win the match with this push.
You're right here. I was exaggerating pretty heavily when I said you wouldn't have half the units. I'm not saying I don't like TZ's build, but I would still prefer the marauder-added composition you get from this against Protoss over the fast engineering bay. I see your point (now lol) about it not having to be a blind anti-cheese reaction to incorporate it, but I don't feel that it's overly difficult to stop DTs when opening with this either. I think I'm definitely going to give his build a try in TvT though ^_^
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On February 01 2012 08:38 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:24 statikg wrote:On February 01 2012 07:35 Grobyc wrote:
Its my opinion that the protoss have really adapted to this metagame timing attack. I currently execute a much earlier attack without medivacs at protoss base between 9-9:30 off 4rax that is quite effective esp on maps with wide naturals. Protoss are often very weak at exactly 9minutes if they are doing any of a variety of strategies.
What do you mean by "metagame timing attack"? There's no metagame to this as far as I can see, it's just a set of timings in game. As far as I know metagame has to do with things that don't directly affect the game, such as "oh shit, this guy DT rushed me 3 times in a row, I bet he's DT rushing me again now", even though there's nothing about that game that technically invokes a thought like that. Either way, Protoss are generally weak around this time of the game, and just because they may know it's coming doesn't mean it's any less deadly.
What I mean by metagame timing is a general sense players who play alot have of how a standard matchup "generally" progresses. In basically every standard TvP the terran tries an attack with either the first 2 medivacs or the first 4 at the latest. You are saying that protoss are generally weak around this time, I am saying that they are making adjustments to their builds/unit positioning ect. to minimize or reverse this particular weakness and if they know its coming does in fact mean that it is less deadly. However if you can get out more units then they are used to seeing (for example by making 2 reactors instead of 2 tech labs) then the defences prepared in advance may be insufficient. That is one way to try to get ahead of the metagame if the extra units are worth the loss of an upgrade (maybe my understanding of the term is flawed). Okay, I understand what you are saying now, but I still can't help but disagree with some of it. Just because Protosses are refining their play/builds does not directly affect the strength of this attack. Sure, they may be accustomed to having to defend an attack this like at that point in the game, but it doesn't "counter" it in that sense. I suppose you aren't saying a mid game push doesn't work because of this, but that's what I thought you were saying initially. Ultimately, I still think there is still damage to be done and things that the build achieves.
Let me give you an example of why I think that you may be wrong on this one and why I am worried about your timing in general. This is just one example so obviously the game may not progress in this manner. In the far past, terran timing attacks used to aim for about 10-10:30 because 2 base collosus generally came out around 11minutes. Now however, its not uncommon at all for a collosus to be popping near to 10minutes to counter exactly that and if you don't hit til just after 11minutes it could be even 2 collosus with cronoboosts. Against 2 collsus with 2 reactor raxes, your fked. Against 1 your in trouble if he has good micro but you might be able to do some damage if you split him up. Now this timing would obviously work alot better against a gateway heavy protoss player so I'm not saying your plan is not workable, just that some strategies ~ which are fairly common, would give it trouble from my not inconsiderable experience.
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Okay, I see. If you go with the earlier timing (leave base at 9:45~) then he should have at most 1 colossus (no range) when you get there, which I think shouldn't be too hard to deal with. Now, let's say he holds on without taking too much damage. He may give you a bit of trouble if you make a bad engagement head on, but I think you can still harass him with drops and counters to delay until you have a few more marauders/rax+tech lab. It surely wouldn't be the easiest thing to play against, but I don't think I could say he's able to win outright because of it. Back to the metagame though, I think that's also something that is constantly changing, so it's not a terrible thing; I've been noticing a lot of quick 3rd bases for example. After all, this might not fare against a fast 2 base colossus as well as some builds, but the extra marine count is also something this brings that 3 rax w/2 tech labs doesn't, which are tradeoffs for using one build over another. All in all, I see the concerns you've brought up, but I still think this is viable.
I'm hoping to play against a lot of different Protoss builds using this, so I hope I can provide some decent replays showcasing these scenarios. I'll continue to upload them as they come.
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On February 01 2012 09:07 Grobyc wrote:
Okay, I see. If you go with the earlier timing (leave base at 9:45~) then he should have at most 1 colossus (no range) when you get there, which I think shouldn't be too hard to deal with. Now, let's say he holds on without taking too much damage. He may give you a bit of trouble if you make a bad engagement head on, but I think you can still harass him with drops and counters to delay until you have a few more marauders/rax+tech lab. It surely wouldn't be the easiest thing to play against, but I don't think I could say he's able to win outright because of it. Back to the metagame though, I think that's also something that is constantly changing, so it's not a terrible thing; I've been noticing a lot of quick 3rd bases for example. After all, this might not fare against a fast 2 base colossus as well as some builds, but the extra marine count is also something this brings that 3 rax w/2 tech labs doesn't, which are tradeoffs for using one build over another. All in all, I see the concerns you've brought up, but I still think this is viable.
I'm hoping to play against a lot of different Protoss builds using this, so I hope I can provide some decent replays showcasing these scenarios. I'll continue to upload them as they come.
I definitely think it is viable and that you should continue testing it. I am just trying to mentally stress test the build with you here to help you optimize your build and its goals.
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That's great, thanks. 
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
Hi Grobyc! Overall the guide proper is well laid out, crisply written and unambiguous-- good work in presenting the material.
I like this build. I usually go for two tech labs instead of two reactors, but I think I'll give this a try and see how it does. Marines are pretty baller, Medivacs are also pretty baller. I'll let you know if I run into any weirdness, but fundamentally this build looks solid. I'll see if my ladder experience agrees with my theorycraft.
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How do you defend 4 gate warp prism?
How do you play if he denies all scouting?
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On February 01 2012 14:08 Techno wrote:
How do you defend 4 gate warp prism?
How do you play if he denies all scouting?
Make 3 or so bunkers and sensor tower I guess. (for 4 gate prism)
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On February 01 2012 04:55 Yello wrote:
Wrong. Watch Puma for example, he builds a lot of marines throughout the whole game. 2 Marines actually do more damage to armored units than a marauder.
True, but don't forget armor issues:
Dps for a stimmed Marauder against an armored target = 20 (18 if Guardian Shield) / 19 on armor (17 if GS)
Dps for 2 stimmed Marines against a target = ~21 but “only” 14 if GS / 17,45 on armor but “only” ~10,5 if GS
Guardian Shield and/or additional armor upgrades heavily reduce Marines' damage output, which is not that much the case with Marauders against armored targets. Since at this point in the game, the Protoss player will have several Sentries which should be able to cast Guardian Shield, you have to look at those values. Besides, Marauders still have slightly more health than 2 Marines, and they have one more range.
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EPT
