EPTI will try and help you over time
About the movement, i can talk about it with him or show him, if u wanna reach me about that iam in the channel
or if iam not seen, you can pm me here
[A] Starbow - Page 352
| Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games |
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I will try and help you over time About the movement, i can talk about it with him or show him, if u wanna reach me about that iam in the channel or if iam not seen, you can pm me here | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 11 2013 03:46 Foxxan wrote: Ok, just checking if you knew things here and there, seems you know pretty much everything and u have a good grasp of criticalmass and stuff I will try and help you over time About the movement, i can talk about it with him or show him, if u wanna reach me about that iam in the channel or if iam not seen, you can pm me here Did I miss you in game? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Ok, just checking if you knew things here and there, seems you know pretty much everything and u have a good grasp of criticalmass and stuff There is still much for me to learn. So I do not think I know exactly everything ^^ I mean, I´ve been working on this project for over a year. I constantly learn and realize new stuff. All I try to do is make a fun and decent game heavily inspired by the BW gameplay, but with improvements. (So its just not a remake.) And the "improvements" are what causes the delay in development, since they require testing and so on | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Also Breed is still an awkward ability, and having both the Viper and Defiler have two different abilities called Consume, but one targets buildings and one units... feels very ugh. What I would suggest is removing Breed, and replacing the Viper Consume with Siphon - it would work the same way, but target ENEMY structures instead of friendly. Then Vipers would still have a method of both harass and a reason for splitting away from the main force to gain energy, but out of a single ability. Lastly I would move them to Spire tech and bring back the Infestation Pit as the prerequisite for Hive. But then what unit do we have that requires the Infestation Pit? We could bring back the Infestor with a tweaked Breed ability (it feels like it could be a better fit on that unit, especially given that it has Infested Terrans in SC2) and then give it the Overseers Contaminate (blocks production/research for 30 seconds). Maybe also Neural Parasite at Hive Tech, perhaps targeting ground only. What do you think? Too much trouble? I feel like this would add a very welcome layer of polish to the Mod by getting rid of an ugly textured building, an extra spell over the usual limit with one of the casters, making the Zerg tech tree more familiar to SC2 players, and removing the confusion of two units with different spells that have the same name. I don't feel like it would have a huge impact on core gameplay in any of the matchups. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
I do agree that consume is the wrong name for the Viper ability, and Breed could probably do with an extra look. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
There are many ways to go. But it is too much rework at this point. I am currently going full mode in this MOD, working a lot of hours everyday in the editor since I have ca 1 more free week before work and school starts 100%. I wanna polish this up, fix the remaining issues, finalize the design and then show it to more people. If people like it and play it, I will continue to patch it and improve balance/bugs, but at a slower pace. If no one at all cares to play this, and all of you get tired and vanish, well, I did my best and it was fun to work and play and discuss design together with all of you. Breed can surely be improved. Consume & Consume on Viper and Defiler is like Cloak on Banshee and Ghost. If necessary, one ability can be renamed, and maybe can Viper target the enemy structures. (As long as it does not outrange static defence.) Both abilities feel Zergy - eat biological stuff to get energy, just in two different ways. The remaining design issue IMO is the Marauder. I will write a post about it tonight, since we are currently playing atm. (Just alt-tabbed now.) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
First some quick small notes on TvP: >>>+ Show Spoiler + - Marines must be able to fend off early Protoss air harassment. Atm, they are bad at doing so. Besides, they are killed by Stalkers and Zealots with the current stats those units have. So Marines feel way worse in TvP now compared to BW/SC2. (But this is easily adjusteable) - Immortals are suppose to be the "Dragoon" of Protoss - the backbone vs mech, especially since Stalkers now become weaker as the game progresses. (Due to Tanks being stronger vs them.) But atm Immortals are not good enough vs that. I aim to improve their Absorb ability so it is not completely useless vs Mech. (Only stops projectiles atm.) - Mine fields must be felt. Atm, I do not fear to move into them. But this is easy fixable. (Earlier were they soooo strong so Protoss did not move in at all  )- Reaver damage is too low. 80 per shot. Does not one-shot Vultures or two-shot Tanks. Since the enemy can now see where the Reaver will shoot, it is possible to micro vs it. So I will revert it to the classic 100 value. - It is hard to get a high enough Tank number with 3 supply per Tank. Not enough Tanks to defend, especially since the economy requires more bases. I will revert them to 2 supply. More Tanks = More GG. - Archons. They do not detonate Mines and Vultures deal only 8 dmg vs them. In BW did they take 20 damage from Vultures, due to the way Shields worked. I played as Protoss today. I was like: "Ok, if I get Archons he can not kill them." And IF they can detonate Mines, one Archon is enough to soak up an entire Mine field. I need to find some Terran unit who can actually kill the Archon.................. Lets look at the larger problematic things: >>>+ Show Spoiler + - Reaper with Splash damage. I fear it will sooner or later be OP in TvZ. High mobility, splash damage vs light from the upgrade, and the ability to throw bombs at the ground to blow up structures. BUT T must have some kind of splash ability, so they can deal with mass Zerglings. (Firebats in BW. Hellion in SC2. Reaper in Starbow.) I can either try to rebalance this, or the splash attack must be removed. I have not decided yet. - Marauder. This unit gives me headaches. I am not satisfied with the current version of it, nor its role, nor its relationship with other units. I will write more about it tomorrow since it is late now. The only good thing is that it helps to punish Protoss who goes for only mass Stalkers. (Since Stalkers counter Reaper, Marine, Vulture, Banshee and Dropplay. Something must punish it so its not the ultimate early/mid game unit vs everything T can do.) But I am looking at different solutions to it, and I am even looking at replacing it with the Firebat. (A modified form of Firebat.) While at the same time I want to make sure T has the ability for early Bio pressure and can punish P who goes mass Stalkers. It is a tricky puzzle >.< | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
i dont think marines lose vs stalkers/zealots with medics at all so the marauder is a good addition to the bio force versus protoss because they can soak more aoe damage from them , that means bio dont need aoe damage and as u say, they are good vs stalker, which means terran can take mapcontrol to with bio A firebat would be cool tho cuz of nostalgia edit: if u keep the marauder, make it able to do something against banelings? Banelings seems to be super good vs bio, while i have not tried it in theory they can kill the healers and marines tons of experience from sc2 tvz | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
TBH I don't really care about making bio viable in all match ups so if you go 100 dmg reaver, I'm fine with that  | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Here is what I want it to help Bio do: Vs P - Help Bio punish heavy Stalker play so T can take map control. P needs to add in Immortasl, Zealots or get higher tech Reavers. And this forces T to get his own higher tech units and so on. And instead of 1 Reaver or Storm hard countering the entire Marine army, we now have Marauders who require a little bit more work to take care off. If properly balanced maybe we can get this: Zealot > Marine > Immortal > Marauder > Stalker > Vulture > Zealot > Tank > Stalker > Banshee > Immortal > Goliath > Protoss late game air > Tank > Immortal. And of course, Marine > Protoss early air A mix where several units are needed. At the same time, pure Bio armies shall not easily just A-move into Protoss pure armies and be GG NO RE. And I think that can be balanced where fights are somewhat even and requires micro from both parts. And the army with more higher tech units shall dominate. Vs T: Can deal with Vultures, and can run in and snipe lonely unsieged Tanks, and can deal with early Reapers. Mech will dominate this match-up, and I am fine with that. Marauder at least has some usage in the early and mid game, since it can do something Marines can not do. Vs Z: Here is the trick. Marauders are now good vs Lurkers, Ultralisks and maybe to soak up damage from Banelings. And they can NOT be good vs Lurkers... How to change this? Well, if the Marauder is kept as a decent beefy unit with decent range and high single target dmg, I can change the bonus vs armored to bonus vs mechanical. Would make it good in the desired way in TvP and TvT, but not break Lurkers. But what would it do in TvZ? Well, nothing. Just soak up damage from Banelings. So Marauder can interact well with the following units: - Structures, Stalker, Vulture, unsieged Tank, Baneling... And this makes the Marauder feel obsolete in TvZ. And at the same time, I still fear the Reaper splash will be a problem sooner or later. Moving the splash to the Marauder... or a Firebat.. Tthe Marauder has two attacks, like the Hydra in SC2 - vs melee units a decent flame attack that can deal with Lings, and from longer range a high dmg vs mecahnical targets. Or some kind of splash. But that does not feel perfect either. Ok, I gotta go now. I just shared some thoughs. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
I think we could try to make the marauder go back to have armored-plus only. Basicly remove their "Bonus" to medium armor. That means at least hydras will be rather good at holding the marauders off. And then maybe add something else to marauders... We have talked about a firebat-marauder hybrid in the past. I think for that design to work, it needs to be mode-shifting i feel. Can't be a fusion. What is Gateway units suposed to do vs early marauder aggression? The marauders moves in, roasts the zealots with their melee attack and then proceed to murder the stalkers. My suggestion here is to try and be scientific about it. How about for a testing period to have both firebat AND marauder in game, to see for eventual balance issues. It really can only be weaker, than having them both on the same unit. From there we can then decide if there should be an "interchange" mechanic allowing you to switch your firebat to a marauder and vice versa. Or if they should just have both weapons in one unit. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
To me it sounds it will be imba as hell, i believe it already is imba tbh We see so few games but with theory hell yeah iam almost 100% About the marauder against protoss Have u tried to look at the medic instead? If medic somehow gets an ability that is passive: Heals other units before any medic! They can work great with their stim And if that is the case, i believe marines/medics beat zealot/stalker easy. So marauders would be in a good place, they need to be able to still be good vs stalker to keep up with them in the early game and to be active on the map AND they need to be rather decent against aoe attacks, cuz if marines/medics > zealot/stalker > Now protoss gets aoe > so now marauders becomes good (maybe buff medic slightly? From 2 to 4 per energy, something like that IT will turn out to be good mix and protoss need to think about how they use their aoe attacks and not just blidnly aoe everything in sight So if reaver do 100damage, maybe give marauder a hpbuff upgrade and remove the reavers upgrade damage if that is the case what u think? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
It basically comes down to this: >>>+ Show Spoiler + - Terran must have a way to deal with mass Zerglings & Banelings early in the game. Sooner or later will they be a problem when players discover how to Zergling and Baneling bust Terran. - Terran should IMO have an "early" way to take map control/pressure vs Protoss. (Preferably earlier than a critical mass of Tanks is reached) - It would be "fun" if Terran could build something out of the Barrack who can fend of the early Reaper and be ok vs Vultures. (So we do not only see Vulture + Tank vs Vulture + Tank every game. A reason to see Marauder + Tank etc) - Reaper splash upgrade will sooner or late be a problem. (Unless I rework or rebalance it heavily) So I consider to remove the Reaper splash upgrade. Just let it have the bomb ability. And what unit should then deal with Zerglings/Banelings? - The Firebat. Or a reworked Marauder. And what is the problem with the Firebat? - It is only useful in TvZ, MAYBE vs Zealots. And it is lame. But if I rebalance the Stalker/Marine & Medic relationship slightly, so Marines become better vs Stalkers, than Terran is able to move out on the map and take map control. And what is the problem with that? Foxxan said it good: And if that is the case, i believe marines/medics beat zealot/stalker easy. So marauders would be in a good place, they need to be able to still be good vs stalker to keep up with them in the early game and to be active on the map AND they need to be rather decent against aoe attacks, cuz if marines/medics > zealot/stalker > Now protoss gets aoe > so now marauders becomes good (maybe buff medic slightly? From 2 to 4 per energy, something like that IT will turn out to be good mix and protoss need to think about how they use their aoe attacks and not just blidnly aoe everything in sight When I watch Marauder & Marines & Tanks & Vessels & Ghosts fight vs Protoss, it feels like there is potential for "depth" in those combats. There are things to focus fire, AoE can not just be spammed, both armies must use spells like Storm, Safeguard, Absorb, Matrix etc. (It is ofc not perfect atm) If TvP Bio consists of only Marines and maybe 1-2 Firebats, we will see Storm and Reaver > kill entire Bio blobs in seconds. And this will lead to Bio units being useless vs P, apart from maybe early pushes/rushes. (Just as in BW.) In other words, I would like a Bio unit who can: - fight decent and have the potential to take map control vs the Protoss army (and punish heavy Stalker play) - be weak vs Protoss AoE but not die "immediately" like Marines, - be able to kill Vultures - can defend vs the early Reapers (since Marines die from Reapers atm, so the counter to Reaper is another Reaper), - It must deal with mass Zerglings & Banelings. - It can not just A-move into Lurkers. Everything must not be on the same unit. But this is what I want Bio to be able to do, so it gains a purpose in all match-ups. And the units I currently use for this dynamic is the Marine, Reaper, Marauder, Medic and Ghost. One way is to make the Marauder just have a weapon switch. Via a button can players select a decent flamethrower vs melee units. Or choose a ranged attack vs mechanical or armored targets. But at the same time, it feels quite annoying. Three buttons on the Marauder. It is suppose to be a simple unit.. Another solution is to just add the Firebat and the Marauder. But that would make 6 units in the Barrack, 3 in the Factory, and 5 units in the Starport. It feels quite uneven, and besides, the Firebat also feels very narrow. It can only kill Zerglings.. Its as if if we add Unit A to the game ONLY so it can kill unit B. And nothing else. And if Vultures are replaced with Hellion with Spider mines, that will also be imbalanced sooner or later. A unit with a splash attack and splash mines.... (Plus I love da Vulture) And I really want to make an as easy and elegant solution as possible now. : / Ps. A lot of PS in the Spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Ps1. When I talk about stuff like Marine > Immortal, I talk about cost efficiency in smaller numbers. Enough Immortals would kill Marines, but in terms of equal cost, one unit often has the advantage over another. This is what makes player want to mix in more types of units. Ps2. When I talk about Bio being able to fight vs Protoss, I do not mean that Bio should > Protoss ground army. Mech will be the stronger alternative as the game progresses. But a Terran player who opts for Bio play will gain the advantage of mobility, earlier pressure, stronger Dropplay, more harassment, compared to going straight to mech. But Protoss should IMO be stronger vs Bio as the game progresses. (Due to Reavers, Storm and so on) Ps3. And why is that so important? If I just copy the BW metagame, and throw in the Firebat instead of the Marauder, problems solved. I do not have to worry about Bio working in PvT, since it will probably be like in BW - only mech vs P in every game. But I really really want to broaden PvT to be more than just Mech in every game. It is really hard Ps4. Atm, it does not feel like Marine & Medic > Stalker. It rather feels the other way around. Try them in the Starbow Unit tester Maybe it is just me? Ps5. And this is the only large design problem I feel is left in Starbow. (Ofc other stuff can be improved, but I will not redesign anything at this point. Only rebalance/adjust.) | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Since Vultures beat Zealots, Tanks beat Stalkers and Goliaths beat lategame Protoss Air, pure Mech already covers almost all conceivable Protoss compositions. You need Immortals to be cost effective against all three of those units in order to get the dynamic you want, because that will force small hit squads of Marines, which will encourage Medics, which will diversify the compositions and possibly lead to Ghost and Reaper play as well since the Barracks infrastructure will be in place. Your current chain has Tanks beating Immortals - that cannot happen, at least, not cost-effectively or without some sort of skill differential. It would seem to be that our best bet is actually to bring back a modified version of Hardened Shields, and change the way Safeguard works to prevent an overlap of the abilities. I don't actually think the Marauder is required, as long as Marines can be tweaked to do better vs Stalkers and worse vs Zealots, which then opens up more room for the Firebat. If the Terran player is already making a few Marines and Medics to counter Immortals, then it's a much easier transition to mix a few Firebats in against the Zealots than to mass more Vultures, who compete for minerals and build time with Siege Tanks. The Tanks of course should be the real counter to Stalker play. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
3 range, ~130 HP, Roughly the same damage (possibly 15 flat damage to all). Can upgrade stim and explosive shells. Explosive shells gives small AOE to the Marauder attack and can be upgraded at techlab with no extra requirements. This gives a unit that can fill the role of the Firebat, but still be used for single target snipes and diversity in the bio composition. Other version of Marauder that does not adress the problems Kabel outlines, but does other interesting things. + Show Spoiler + Alternatively there is Hiders take on the modified Marauder: 7 range, 80 HP and a bit more damage. Upgrades stim and maybe some kind of "Heavy shell" targetted ability for extra damage or a modified concussive shells for single target slow. Not usefull as a buffer, but really good at dealing with Then there is the possible "fast Marauder" with 2.75 speed and stim but less HP and 4-5 range. Edit: @Smile, you cannot have anything beating Siege tanks in a direct fight as this defeats the purpose of them. You deal with tanks by abusing their immobility, splash and minimum range. Making counter units was the thing that ruined WoL gameplay and we don't want to make the same mistakes. Protoss has storm, drops, Zealot charge and a few other tools (Stasis?) to deal with tanks. If tanks are a problem we should look at those things, not turn to hard counters. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
One way is to make the Marauder just have a weapon switch. Via a button can players select a decent flamethrower vs melee units. Or choose a ranged attack vs mechanical or armored targets. But at the same time, it feels quite annoying. Three buttons on the Marauder. It is suppose to be a simple unit.. Another solution is to just add the Firebat and the Marauder. But that would make 6 units in the Barrack, 3 in the Factory, and 5 units in the Starport. It feels quite uneven, and besides, the Firebat also feels very narrow. It can only kill Zerglings.. Its as if if we add Unit A to the game ONLY so it can kill unit B. And nothing else. Your correct. We have been with the firebat before. It is extremely narrow in its use. It can't even deal with Zealots it doesn't have the firepower for that. Blizzard already had an entire beta to figure out how strong it would need to be in order to be relevant vs Zealots. Check Hellbat stats for more information. The thing is, the marauder is also kinda narrow and that is where the idea of the Marauder/firebat hybrid comes. I have talked about this for quite a while.. Having 2 narrow units with similar health and armor stat, merged together for a unit with a more wider range of uses, while still maintaining a healthly number of counters(Air, Hydras, Immortals, Reaver, Tanks). Sounds reasonable? If the barracks seems overloaded, then trash the reaper. It got a use for the first 3-5 minutes of the game, after that it is just for fooling around when ahead. And the Battlecruiser handles that role already. For a start through, lets just try to have both the firebat and the marauder and deal with any balance issues from there. Then we can work on if/how they should switch between eachother | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On August 12 2013 01:52 Xiphias wrote: Also, making the marine do decent vs stalkers and fend off toss air WITHOUT breaking TvZ will be one heck of a challenge.... It is kinda what the viking is for. And why it is not bound to factory anymore. If it can't handle that, then it needs some of its firepower back. The warp prism get some some more HP if we are afraid it gets "shut down" too easily. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
>>>+ Show Spoiler + The key to TvP, it seems, is all in how you design and balance the Immortal. Since Vultures beat Zealots, Tanks beat Stalkers and Goliaths beat lategame Protoss Air, pure Mech already covers almost all conceivable Protoss compositions. You need Immortals to be cost effective against all three of those units in order to get the dynamic you want, because that will force small hit squads of Marines, which will encourage Medics, which will diversify the compositions and possibly lead to Ghost and Reaper play as well since the Barracks infrastructure will be in place. Your current chain has Tanks beating Immortals - that cannot happen, at least, not cost-effectively or without some sort of skill differential. It would seem to be that our best bet is actually to bring back a modified version of Hardened Shields, and change the way Safeguard works to prevent an overlap of the abilities. I don't actually think the Marauder is required, as long as Marines can be tweaked to do better vs Stalkers and worse vs Zealots, which then opens up more room for the Firebat. If the Terran player is already making a few Marines and Medics to counter Immortals, then it's a much easier transition to mix a few Firebats in against the Zealots than to mass more Vultures, who compete for minerals and build time with Siege Tanks. The Tanks of course should be the real counter to Stalker play. This is interesting. It is that kind of dynamic I want to reach in TvP - make it possible for a wider spectrum of units to become useful in the match-up. (So we do not see the BW meta game over and over again) But that would require: 1. Firebats really able to beat Zealots (And they need much much much better stats.. Hellbats anyone?) 2. Marines able to beat Stalker & Immortal (Without breaking TvZ, as Xiphias point out!) 3. Immortal good enough to be core unit vs Mech, but still need support units to fight vs sieged Tank + mine positions. (Safeguard, Stasis, Drop play, Corsair with lift off, Zealots to drag mines etc) 4. Reaver and Storm not extremely hard counter Marines. We have Zealots > Tanks > Stalkers > Vulture > Zealots in the early and mid game. But since Stalkers become worse in the late game, due to super good upgrades at Tanks, Immortal is "suppose" to be the back bone in the army. The difference lies in Immortals being much stronger vs Vultures & Tanks & Goliath than the Stalker is. The advantage of the Stalker is quick reinforcement via Warp in, Blink, harass and anti-air, while heavy Immortals take the fight. But too many Immortals makes the army slow, whch opens up vulnerability for Drop and air play vs P. And maybe also makes heavy Marine play much better. (If that is even a realistic tech switch?) How decent were Dragoons vs Tanks in BW? Hmmmm... @Zaphod >>>+ Show Spoiler + Marauder: 3 range, ~130 HP, Roughly the same damage (possibly 15 flat damage to all). Can upgrade stim and explosive shells. Explosive shells gives small AOE to the Marauder attack and can be upgraded at techlab with no extra requirements. This gives a unit that can fill the role of the Firebat, but still be used for single target snipes and diversity in the bio composition. This is also interesting. Basically a Firebat with a short ranged attack with splash impact. But this would IMO require: - It can beat clumped up Zerglings and Banelings. - It must be able to interact with Stalkers. (If too short range, this unit will never touch Stalkers) - Not hard counter Hydras. (Baneling > Marine > Hydra > "Firebat/Marauder" > Baneling, Zergling) - A proper relationship with other units. What kind of units the Marauder be good against? @Sumadin >>>+ Show Spoiler + Having 2 narrow units with similar health and armor stat, merged together for a unit with a more wider range of uses, while still maintaining a healthly number of counters(Air, Hydras, Immortals, Reaver, Tanks). Sounds reasonable? If the barracks seems overloaded, then trash the reaper. It got a use for the first 3-5 minutes of the game, after that it is just for fooling around when ahead. And the Battlecruiser handles that role already. Yeah, I am playing with the thought of merging the Firebat and Marauder into one unit, since they share so many attributes anyway. But I like the Reaper. And the ability upgrade might be really useful to punish bases in the late game who only rely on static defence, since 2-3 bombs is enough to blow a Cannon or Spine Crawler, so the Reapers can come in and shoot workers. @What I do in the editor as we speak >>>+ Show Spoiler + I am currently looking in the editor to see if it is possible at all to make the Marauder just switch weapon. Maybe something like this: Marauder Cost 75/25 or something. Require Tech lab cause I fear it will be easy to mass "Firebats" vs Z early Hp 100 Armored Missile attack: Range 5, cooldown 2 seconds - 12 vs light, 15 vs all, 18 vs mechanical (so it does not hard counter Lurkers, but is still strong vs the targets I want it to be good against: Stalker, Vulture, Structures) Flame attack: Melee range - 12 vs light in a cone or a line in front. (Makes them 3-shot Zerglings) I think it would be possible to just add two buttons to the interface. Like this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GnMjrGO.jpg) If anyone here is gosu at the editor, please drop me a PM. I have two concerns I can not solve. Just wanna see if this is possible at all to make it look and feel good. If it does, maybe this is a way to go. After all. Maybe the unit stats would need to be altered. Should it be long range rockets, high dmg, fragile? Tough, decent range rocket, decent damage? I do not want the Maruader to be soo good that it is the only unit worth massing. (We get the problem of T massing Marauders in every game vs everything, kinda like Stalkers were^^ ) ( | ||
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