On December 10 2010 05:10 Markwerf wrote: 2) I proved in my earlier post with good testing that this build IS economically behind. Stop being a dick by ignoring any sensable post that contradicts your belief, the build is slightly behind in economy compared to a 14 pool build, simple FACT. Basically anyone assumed this without testing because a) a 11 pool slightly cuts drones and b) an earlier pool means you lose a drone earlier, I've actually invested the time to test it properly and proved it IS behind ~50 minerals. Your testing is flawed in many ways: 1) you don't test against a proper build (and arguing you weren't provided one is the lamest argument there is) 2) you chose poor timings to make your graph. Noone cares if a build is ahead if after 6 minutes, it only matters for the first few minutes, build always deviate after that anyway
First of all, please, stop name-calling and righteous chest beating -- that goes for everybody. I can hardly stand to read the constructive comments amongst all the drama.
Most importantly, the issue at hand is 11-pool vs 14-pool. When you expand is for our purposes irrelevant because the difference between an 11/18 and a 14/18 is the pool opening. Now if we want to talk about hatch first builds then that is a different story, but between the 11 and 14 pool I see little difference (if we want to argue about when to expand, this is also a separate argument). I'll explain in as much detail as I can what the differences are between them.
1) When does the pool go down? 11-Pool 1:34 14-Pool 1:53
A ~19 second difference.
2) When is the 21st larva produced from the hatch? 11-Pool 2:56 14-Pool 2:48
This demonstrates that the 11-Pool's larva production is delayed by ~8 seconds.
3) How many minerals mined after 3:00 11-Pool 1270 14-Pool 1320
This shows the difference in minerals mined is ~70 at 3:00 (average appears to be ~50).
Now, the test I ran to get these results was an 11 and 14 pool build where I made a pool, 2 overlords, and 19 drones (one becomes the pool). Of course, the build I used for the test is not a build you would use in a game, but rather is a build that allows us to test the difference economically between the 11 and 14 pool because all other factors are controlled.
Now, if both builds get their queen right after the spawning pool finishes, then the 11-pool compensates for its ~8 second larva delay by producing 4 larva ~19 seconds faster than the 14-pool. This would explain why we expect to see a reversal of economic positions around the 6 minute mark. I believe the question should be, what are you planning on doing with that 50 mineral lead between 3:00 and 6:00?
Markwerf, you said that no one cares if this build is ahead at 6 minutes. Can you elaborate as to what exactly that temporary 50 mineral advantage will be used for? You shouldn't have any extra larva to spend it on, and even if you did, wouldn't you simply be playing catch up to the larva delay you incurred by getting your pool/queen ~19 seconds later? All I can foresee is that you'd put down your next building (a hatch, perhaps) 2-5 seconds earlier.
I, attempting to be as objective as I can, see no substantial benefit to going 14 pool instead of 11-pool. Please, if anyone disagrees, construct a response less vile than the recent posts and explain in similar detail how something I've done here is in error or what benefit I may have overlooked, etc. Also, I think we should avoid using personal anecdotes as much as possible in order to discuss these differences objectively. We all know that none of us are good enough ourselves or face opponents good enough to test the validity of either build in ideal level play. No, by the way, 2000 D is not good. No, 2200 D isn't good either. Perhaps at 2700+ I'd personally have marginal respect for someone's anecdotes, but even then, I play at the 2400 range and I know how terrible everyone is at that level.
On December 10 2010 08:50 Shikyo wrote: I mentioned this a few pages ago, but no one seems to have noticed it.
What are this build's advantages over a double extractor trick 12 overpool? The build gets spawning pool about 7 seconds later, but has an extra drone. You can get 15ov, then at 16 get the Queen and one pair of lings right away, and then hatch safely with the pair of lings helping with clearing the block at your natural. You can gas right after the Queen for a decent gas timing without hurting the expo timing much at all.
I find it infinitely more reliable. The double extractor trick makes you lose 12 minerals, but that's such a tiny amount it really shouldn't even matter.
If I remember correctly, the issue with the 12 pool is the time you spend waiting for 100+ minerals to do the trick causes problems down the line, but I honestly can't be sure. Feel free to produce some replays to help us gather more data. Perhaps it is an improvement.
On December 10 2010 08:50 Shikyo wrote: I mentioned this a few pages ago, but no one seems to have noticed it.
What are this build's advantages over a double extractor trick 12 overpool? The build gets spawning pool about 7 seconds later, but has an extra drone. You can get 15ov, then at 16 get the Queen and one pair of lings right away, and then hatch safely with the pair of lings helping with clearing the block at your natural. You can gas right after the Queen for a decent gas timing without hurting the expo timing much at all.
I find it infinitely more reliable. The double extractor trick makes you lose 12 minerals, but that's such a tiny amount it really shouldn't even matter.
On December 02 2010 21:32 thenanox wrote: i remeber in one of TL threads that they speak about what is more optimal, and actually it was 12 pool with double extractor trick. Also i remember in bold text that NEVER OVERPOOL in this game
More optimal for what? 12overpool off a double extractor is behind 11overpool in both larvae and minerals at pretty much every point. And 12pool before overlord wastes a *ton* of larvae early on, which is the very worst time to be wasting larvae.
And there's a really really good chance that the bolded never overpool text was posted by me. Whenever I've done that, I've been referring specifically to 10overpool, which is always bad, and you should never do, because pretty much every other single build is always better than it. 11overpool obviously can be fine though, since it turns out it provides one of the most economic options available to zerg, surpassed only by 14hatch/15pool or 14h/14p.
On December 10 2010 09:01 Shikyo wrote: ^ You can do the first one earlier... your drone will just have to stay as an extractor for a while longer. I'm not sure which way is faster.
12overpool has 0 larva downtime though, so it will have the "21st" larva referred to in the long post above out at the same time as a 14pool would.
What advantage does 12 overpool have over just 12 pooling the ordinary way? IIRC 11 and 9 overlord both leave you with more minerals than 12 overlord.
On December 10 2010 09:01 Shikyo wrote: ^ You can do the first one earlier... your drone will just have to stay as an extractor for a while longer. I'm not sure which way is faster.
12overpool has 0 larva downtime though, so it will have the "21st" larva referred to in the long post above out at the same time as a 14pool would.
What advantage does 12 overpool have over just 12 pooling the ordinary way? IIRC 11 and 9 overlord both leave you with more minerals than 12 overlord.
You get your 10th, 11th, and 12th drones way earlier and with normal 9ov build you still would need to wait a long time. The reason 12ov here doesn't give you less minerals is because you're going to be waiting for enough minerals for the pool while the overlord is building anyway, there's no downtime while you're waiting for ov anyway.
On December 10 2010 09:01 Shikyo wrote: ^ You can do the first one earlier... your drone will just have to stay as an extractor for a while longer. I'm not sure which way is faster.
12overpool has 0 larva downtime though, so it will have the "21st" larva referred to in the long post above out at the same time as a 14pool would.
What advantage does 12 overpool have over just 12 pooling the ordinary way? IIRC 11 and 9 overlord both leave you with more minerals than 12 overlord.
You get your 10th, 11th, and 12th drones way earlier and with normal 9ov build you still would need to wait a long time. The reason 12ov here doesn't give you less minerals is because you're going to be waiting for enough minerals for the pool while the overlord is building anyway, there's no downtime while you're waiting for ov anyway.
I note that you haven't actually claimed to have tested it to see if the good points you are espousing outweigh the bad points you're ignoring....
I have tested it, and I just did so again -- 11 Overlord got the 200 minerals for the 12 Pool about 1.5 seconds sooner than 12 Overlord did.
Man, Psy sure ate his words with those two casts! I can't wait to try this out.
Did not! I admitted ignorance to it and called it some kind of economic ten pool (wrong about the 10 pool part), but I didn't dismiss it completely. I knew about this thread at the time I cast those game, but I'm still skeptical. I said I would wait to see what the pros are doing =)
To be fair, Crixus was way behind in the game against me macro-wise, I just forgot to wall with raxes or spam bunkers like I usually do. Had I done that, I would have been way ahead. Not saying the build doesn't work (it seems solid to me) but that game doesn't illustrate too much. I had more workers, more production, was researching +atk, stim, cs, and had 2x mules, just made a dumbass mistake.
On December 10 2010 10:51 iEchoic wrote: To be fair, Crixus was way behind in the game against me macro-wise, I just forgot to wall with raxes or spam bunkers like I usually do. Had I done that, I would have been way ahead. Not saying the build doesn't work (it seems solid to me) but that game doesn't illustrate too much. I had more workers, more production, was researching +atk, stim, cs, and had 2x mules, just made a dumbass mistake.
On December 10 2010 10:51 iEchoic wrote: To be fair, Crixus was way behind in the game against me macro-wise, I just forgot to wall with raxes or spam bunkers like I usually do. Had I done that, I would have been way ahead. Not saying the build doesn't work (it seems solid to me) but that game doesn't illustrate too much. I had more workers, more production, was researching +atk, stim, cs, and had 2x mules, just made a dumbass mistake.
In both games I think crixus cut way too many drones in favor of lings. I personally would have droned much harder, but it is difficult to tell how each side would compare economically in that case.
Honestly, I don't think the answer matters as much as recognizing the flexibility of going for either economy or aggression with the build.
Man, Psy sure ate his words with those two casts! I can't wait to try this out.
Did not! I admitted ignorance to it and called it some kind of economic ten pool (wrong about the 10 pool part), but I didn't dismiss it completely. I knew about this thread at the time I cast those game, but I'm still skeptical. I said I would wait to see what the pros are doing =)
Instead of waiting for the pros, maybe you should try it out on the ladder a couple times, and then cast the games.
I would also like to know your opinion on the hatch-first vs. 2rax debate. I've heard that a few pros are claiming that hatch-first is best against 2rax, but I think this contradicts everything we've seen in the GSL and elsewhere.
Anyway, thanks for posting in my thread. You are my hero after IdrA, and the best caster after Day9.
It is just so complicated when everyone tests separately, because everyone has slightly different methods and results. I'm not sure why you would retest the 11Pool and post the 1270 amount when I already have a replay showing 1324 at the same 3:00 mark on the same map.
To be honest, I am done arguing the economic merits of this build. I already posted comparisons against 4 different build orders with graphs. If people want to do their own tests and choose their own build orders and use their own methods of testing and their own criteria for comparison, I can't respond to them all individually.
But I agree with you, that if the difference was just 50 minerals, then that would be a worthwhile sacrifice for the greater safety and flexibility of an earlier pool. I just find it hard to believe the difference is 50 minerals or anything else higher for that matter.
There is a pattern of the same 3 individuals (if it really IS 3 individuals) coming on the thread every night at the same time criticizing everything posted on this thread, and I'm done with all the data wars.
On December 10 2010 10:51 iEchoic wrote: To be fair, Crixus was way behind in the game against me macro-wise, I just forgot to wall with raxes or spam bunkers like I usually do. Had I done that, I would have been way ahead. Not saying the build doesn't work (it seems solid to me) but that game doesn't illustrate too much. I had more workers, more production, was researching +atk, stim, cs, and had 2x mules, just made a dumbass mistake.
yeah, I tend to get behind in worker count and upgrade timings when I baneling bust =P
steppes is a very hard map for zerg, at all periods in the game.
I knew we were definelty close in skill levels, so I decided to take my chances.
I did defiently over-ling for the amount of pressure he brought with the 2 rax, but any zergs out there that have died to ot multiple times in a row to it might understand why...
iEchoic is a very good Terran who just got caught off guard... kinda wierd that in this game- it wasnt a zerg that was doing so.
On December 10 2010 08:50 Shikyo wrote: I mentioned this a few pages ago, but no one seems to have noticed it.
What are this build's advantages over a double extractor trick 12 overpool? The build gets spawning pool about 7 seconds later, but has an extra drone. You can get 15ov, then at 16 get the Queen and one pair of lings right away, and then hatch safely with the pair of lings helping with clearing the block at your natural. You can gas right after the Queen for a decent gas timing without hurting the expo timing much at all.
I find it infinitely more reliable. The double extractor trick makes you lose 12 minerals, but that's such a tiny amount it really shouldn't even matter.
This is actually what I've been doing in zvp. On 4 player maps I will send a drone at 10 to scout the other close position. If the toss is in cross positions I will just flat out go for a 14 hatch and if he's in close positions then I'll 12 pool 16 queen 18 hatch.
On December 10 2010 10:51 iEchoic wrote: To be fair, Crixus was way behind in the game against me macro-wise, I just forgot to wall with raxes or spam bunkers like I usually do. Had I done that, I would have been way ahead. Not saying the build doesn't work (it seems solid to me) but that game doesn't illustrate too much. I had more workers, more production, was researching +atk, stim, cs, and had 2x mules, just made a dumbass mistake.
yeah, I tend to get behind in worker count and upgrade timings when I baneling bust =P
steppes is a very hard map for zerg, at all periods in the game.
I knew we were definelty close in skill levels, so I decided to take my chances.
I did defiently over-ling for the amount of pressure he brought with the 2 rax, but any zergs out there that have died to ot multiple times in a row to it might understand why...
iEchoic is a very good Terran who just got caught off guard... kinda wierd that in this game- it wasnt a zerg that was doing so.
EDIT: me = Crixus
I believe a huge point is being missed here. It is not just the fact that an 11 overpool can be economical; it's that when scouted, the opponent thinks they are WAY ahead, setting themselves up for, quoting psy, the most production/upgrades at one time ever. Nevermind the fact that the scv-marine-bunker rush was fought off AND that the kind of pressure that was brought in return by the zerg was even possible in the first place (AFTER overlinging!!!). Classic fork move between the rook and queen with the knight in chess. It only happens because you did not see it coming.
To conclude, the OP's whole point is that this build brings a combination of elements in such an unpredictable balance between economy, security, reaction capability, that keeps the opponent guessing and uncomfortable.
On December 10 2010 10:51 iEchoic wrote: To be fair, Crixus was way behind in the game against me macro-wise, I just forgot to wall with raxes or spam bunkers like I usually do. Had I done that, I would have been way ahead. Not saying the build doesn't work (it seems solid to me) but that game doesn't illustrate too much. I had more workers, more production, was researching +atk, stim, cs, and had 2x mules, just made a dumbass mistake.
I did defiently over-ling for the amount of pressure he brought with the 2 rax, but any zergs out there that have died to ot multiple times in a row to it might understand why...
Agreed, you made the best of the situation, and that's the best followup to over-linging. My mistake on not reading it, not yours.
On December 10 2010 10:51 iEchoic wrote: To be fair, Crixus was way behind in the game against me macro-wise, I just forgot to wall with raxes or spam bunkers like I usually do. Had I done that, I would have been way ahead. Not saying the build doesn't work (it seems solid to me) but that game doesn't illustrate too much. I had more workers, more production, was researching +atk, stim, cs, and had 2x mules, just made a dumbass mistake.
yeah, I tend to get behind in worker count and upgrade timings when I baneling bust =P
steppes is a very hard map for zerg, at all periods in the game.
I knew we were definelty close in skill levels, so I decided to take my chances.
I did defiently over-ling for the amount of pressure he brought with the 2 rax, but any zergs out there that have died to ot multiple times in a row to it might understand why...
iEchoic is a very good Terran who just got caught off guard... kinda wierd that in this game- it wasnt a zerg that was doing so.
EDIT: me = Crixus
I believe a huge point is being missed here. It is not just the fact that an 11 overpool can be economical; it's that when scouted, the opponent thinks they are WAY ahead, setting themselves up for, quoting psy, the most production/upgrades at one time ever. Nevermind the fact that the scv-marine-bunker rush was fought off AND that the kind of pressure that was brought in return by the zerg was even possible in the first place (AFTER overlinging!!!). Classic fork move between the rook and queen with the knight in chess. It only happens because you did not see it coming.
It doesn't take a lot of commitment to stop a bling bust. though. All I would have had to do is lifted my raxes over. Or spent 400 minerals dropping 4 bunkers. I usually blindly do it as a matter of procedure, I was just really stupid about it. It's not like I couldn't do those upgrades and also defend.
Don't get me wrong, I think the build is really good and underused. I just think the game I played wasn't a great representation.
On December 10 2010 05:10 Markwerf wrote: 2) I proved in my earlier post with good testing that this build IS economically behind. Stop being a dick by ignoring any sensable post that contradicts your belief, the build is slightly behind in economy compared to a 14 pool build, simple FACT. Basically anyone assumed this without testing because a) a 11 pool slightly cuts drones and b) an earlier pool means you lose a drone earlier, I've actually invested the time to test it properly and proved it IS behind ~50 minerals. Your testing is flawed in many ways: 1) you don't test against a proper build (and arguing you weren't provided one is the lamest argument there is) 2) you chose poor timings to make your graph. Noone cares if a build is ahead if after 6 minutes, it only matters for the first few minutes, build always deviate after that anyway
First of all, please, stop name-calling and righteous chest beating -- that goes for everybody. I can hardly stand to read the constructive comments amongst all the drama.
Most importantly, the issue at hand is 11-pool vs 14-pool. When you expand is for our purposes irrelevant because the difference between an 11/18 and a 14/18 is the pool opening. Now if we want to talk about hatch first builds then that is a different story, but between the 11 and 14 pool I see little difference (if we want to argue about when to expand, this is also a separate argument). I'll explain in as much detail as I can what the differences are between them.
1) When does the pool go down? 11-Pool 1:34 14-Pool 1:53
A ~19 second difference.
2) When is the 21st larva produced from the hatch? 11-Pool 2:56 14-Pool 2:48
This demonstrates that the 11-Pool's larva production is delayed by ~8 seconds.
3) How many minerals mined after 3:00 11-Pool 1270 14-Pool 1320
This shows the difference in minerals mined is ~70 at 3:00 (average appears to be ~50).
Now, the test I ran to get these results was an 11 and 14 pool build where I made a pool, 2 overlords, and 19 drones (one becomes the pool). Of course, the build I used for the test is not a build you would use in a game, but rather is a build that allows us to test the difference economically between the 11 and 14 pool because all other factors are controlled.
Now, if both builds get their queen right after the spawning pool finishes, then the 11-pool compensates for its ~8 second larva delay by producing 4 larva ~19 seconds faster than the 14-pool. This would explain why we expect to see a reversal of economic positions around the 6 minute mark. I believe the question should be, what are you planning on doing with that 50 mineral lead between 3:00 and 6:00?
Markwerf, you said that no one cares if this build is ahead at 6 minutes. Can you elaborate as to what exactly that temporary 50 mineral advantage will be used for? You shouldn't have any extra larva to spend it on, and even if you did, wouldn't you simply be playing catch up to the larva delay you incurred by getting your pool/queen ~19 seconds later? All I can foresee is that you'd put down your next building (a hatch, perhaps) 2-5 seconds earlier.
I, attempting to be as objective as I can, see no substantial benefit to going 14 pool instead of 11-pool. Please, if anyone disagrees, construct a response less vile than the recent posts and explain in similar detail how something I've done here is in error or what benefit I may have overlooked, etc. Also, I think we should avoid using personal anecdotes as much as possible in order to discuss these differences objectively. We all know that none of us are good enough ourselves or face opponents good enough to test the validity of either build in ideal level play. No, by the way, 2000 D is not good. No, 2200 D isn't good either. Perhaps at 2700+ I'd personally have marginal respect for someone's anecdotes, but even then, I play at the 2400 range and I know how terrible everyone is at that level.
Thanks in advance.
Replays for your review:
Expanding on this, a quick series of tests give, taking 12 pool as a standard:
14 pool = 13 seconds late on pool : ~35 more minerals : 1.3 fewer larvae 13 pool = 6 seconds late on pool : ~20 more minerals : 0.6 fewer larvae 11 overpool = 6 seconds early on pool : ~15 fewer minerals : ~5 seconds delayed on larvae : 0.27 more larvae 12 poolover = 10 seconds early on pool : ~73 fewer minerals : ~7 seconds delayed on larvae : 0.53 more larvae 11 poolover = 20 seconds early on pool : ~66 fewer minerals : ~15 seconds delayed on larvae : 1 more larvae 10 pool = 27 seconds early on pool : ~140 fewer minerals : ~16 seconds delayed on larvae : 1.63 more larvae 9 pool = 34 seconds early on pool ; ~140 fewer minerals : ~27 seconds delayed on larvae : 1.6 more larvae
The final column is an average -- it comes scoring seconds delayed as -x/15, and seconds early on pool as +4x/40.
On December 10 2010 09:01 Shikyo wrote: ^ You can do the first one earlier... your drone will just have to stay as an extractor for a while longer. I'm not sure which way is faster.
12overpool has 0 larva downtime though, so it will have the "21st" larva referred to in the long post above out at the same time as a 14pool would.
What advantage does 12 overpool have over just 12 pooling the ordinary way? IIRC 11 and 9 overlord both leave you with more minerals than 12 overlord.
You get your 10th, 11th, and 12th drones way earlier and with normal 9ov build you still would need to wait a long time. The reason 12ov here doesn't give you less minerals is because you're going to be waiting for enough minerals for the pool while the overlord is building anyway, there's no downtime while you're waiting for ov anyway.
I note that you haven't actually claimed to have tested it to see if the good points you are espousing outweigh the bad points you're ignoring....
I have tested it, and I just did so again -- 11 Overlord got the 200 minerals for the 12 Pool about 1.5 seconds sooner than 12 Overlord did.
How on earth do you even do 11 overlord 12pool? extrick, overlord, double extractor trick, 12th drone? What the.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-172722.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-172724.jpg)
Whenever I've done that, I've been referring specifically to 10overpool, which is always bad, and you should never do, because pretty much every other single build is always better than it. 11overpool obviously can be fine though, since it turns out it provides one of the most economic options available to zerg, surpassed only by 14hatch/15pool or 14h/14p.
