[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups? - Page 35

On December 10 2010 18:53 Shikyo wrote:

How on earth do you even do 11 overlord 12pool? extrick, overlord, double extractor trick, 12th drone? What the.

On December 10 2010 18:54 Hurkyl wrote:

Extractor trick, overlord, patiently wait for overlord to finish, make one Drone, then pool. All in all, I think it works out to being a tiny bit better than 9 overlord.

On December 11 2010 01:35 Obsolescence wrote:

Here is some more data in graph form.

Personally I'm ever more curious about the 11-OL / 12-Pool. It apparently only delays the pool by ~5 seconds, eliminates the larva waste (had to round up to 1 second), and appears to perform better economically, although I cant say for sure because I didn't run a multitude of trials.

On December 11 2010 02:28 adius wrote:
I don't get the point of posting these individual games. There are so many things that happen after the initial opening that affect the outcome that you'd need data from a crapload of games between very solid players for it to be meaningful in deciding which opening is better.

I think that a HUGE factor that's being ignored here is that, assuming your opponent wants to keep you from taking your natural expansion if at all possible, he'll be in a better position to do so if you wait until 18 food to expand because zerglings and drones fight better in low-food battles. There's a specific point in time after any expansion is started that is the opponent's optimal chance you use your temporary economic loss to bust your expansion and put you behind. You DON'T want that time to coincide with when his army is starting to get that critical mass that makes it way more effective.

On December 11 2010 03:16 adius wrote:
If you feel safe you're probably doing something bad. Zerg is about holding off attacks by the skin of your teeth! And to some extent the other races are, too.

On December 11 2010 03:23 jdseemoreglass wrote:


By safe we are just saying we have the flexibility of defending against many possible attacks.

For example, if I hatch first, I don't feel safe because I know if he goes 2rax, my options are limited, and whoever wins depends upon how well my opponent micros. But with this build, I know I have the option of pumping tons of lings if I need to to defend the attack.

So of course, surviving by the skin of your teeth would mean building just enough lings to stop the attack without sacrificing drones. The build doesn't force anyone to overcommit to defense. The flexibility, not the units, is what makes it safe.

On December 11 2010 03:17 Inflexion wrote:
The huge glaring problem I see with this build is 'what if the T decides to build a few marines with the 2rax and decides to march over to your base to fake an attack? and then just retreat. You will be forced to use the larva to make zerglings which puts you behind the T significantly. Not only that but you'll be forced to attack with the zerglings to do damage (you'll have useless zerlging sitting around as the T is walled in) AND having a much much later hatch (due to deviating from making lings instead of drones) or the T will be miles ahead coming out of early game, IMO.

The thing with 14hatch over these early pool builds against T is that it already takes into account that the enemy is 2rax-ing. If they don't bunker rush with a few SCVs, then you're AT MINIMUM (with 14hatch) on par with the T's economy. Then the rest of the game can continue on an even basis.

14hatching already takes into account a 2rax opening; therefore, the rest comes down to micro to defend. If you can defend it, you'll be only slightly behind or best case, ahead. If you early pool, any better than your average joe Terran will just apply some early 'fake' pressure, march back to his base (you are forced to make zerglings instead of drones) and then you're royally screwed for late game if the T decides to in base CC and use wallin to defend your zerglings that you must do damage with.

This is my personal opinion but I can see why ret/idra both are so firm on their stance with 14hatching (vs T). Because at the pro level, if you early pool, you place the ball into the T's hands. If they play their cards right, you'll be in such a disadvantage entering mid/late game. However, if you 14 hatch, you bring the ball back into the Z's court. 'You want to try 2rax, well then i'll 14hatch, COME GET ME!!' Essentially, the Z is forcing it to come down to micro, in which whoever is better at microing, will come out ahead or, in a few cases, win the game.

Against P, I think early pool builds become more viable because
1. probes can't march across the map and build a bunker in your face
2. if they cannon rush, you don't have to deal with marines. all you gotta do is scout and denyt the cannon rush
3. if they send zealots + all probes to all in = lol NO MULES wut.
4. most imporantly, early lings means you can abuse advantage that comes with zerglings > zealots in small numbers
It really comes down to personal preference in ZvP. Do you want to break your P opponent mentally (ie fuck with his mind and early pool/speedling/etc.) or are you more of a read and react/type macro player?

I have no emperical data to base all this on but I would just like to add some input

On December 11 2010 03:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:


This is very convoluted logic... So the weakness of the build is the ability to make too many lings? That doesn't make sense. And how is the 14 Hatch build surviving without having to make lings?

This argument being repeated again and again just isn't thought through at all. People assume that terran is going 2rax and not attacking, and the idiot Zerg is just mindlessly pumping zerglings all game? How about putting down a couple spines and working towards banelings?

I never heard ret or Idra make this argument. I don't know where it was heard or what context it was heard in. But the notion that one build is forced to build lings and the other isn't just doesn't make sense. Are you thinking that the 11 pool doesn't have an expansion? I don't get it at all honestly...

Could someone please explain this to me so I can properly respond to all the people claiming that hatch first is safer against 2rax? Everything I read in the previous thread operated on the flawed assumption that pool first is for some reason forced to keep making lings. I just don't get it honestly...

On December 11 2010 02:26 jacobman wrote:
For anyone that is still making up their mind about the 11 pool build, here is something that you might find informative:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374