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On December 10 2010 21:15 Shikyo wrote:
According to my tests here, 11overlord 12pool feels a lot worse. You get the ling after the Queen way later, the larva delay feels to be at least 5 seconds. It can't be that I do the build so much worse than the 12ovpool. The drone timings are later as well. Doesn't make up for the 1 second faster pool and 6 mineral save.
It's weird that you see larva delay -- I chose 12 pool (whether via 9 overlord or via 11 overlord) specifically because it's the earliest Pool that doesn't have paused larvae.
Are you maybe doing a 10 scout before the Overlord? Or sticking with the OP's original testing plan of rallying all Drones to the same (far) mineral patch? I'm trying to think of things you might possibly have done differently.
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I've been using kinda the same build. 11pool and then 18 or later hatch.
This one is more refined though. It's a good general build vs all three races. Open for adaptation. I really don't know why everyone is arguing about this. I prefer it over 15p/14h or 15h/14p because it seems safer and more flexible. I hate feeling like a sitting duck when I hatch first waiting for my pool.
Just wanted to say also. This is a good thread ruined by trolls, ignorant flamers and people who are out for a fight. (I've read the first 5-6 pages or so hoping for a good discussion but...)
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On December 11 2010 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 01:35 Obsolescence wrote:![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/2vtvb0w.jpg) Here is some more data in graph form. Personally I'm ever more curious about the 11-OL / 12-Pool. It apparently only delays the pool by ~5 seconds, eliminates the larva waste (had to round up to 1 second), and appears to perform better economically, although I cant say for sure because I didn't run a multitude of trials. I also wish you wouldn't post test results that are inferior to the results I've already provided. You should always post the better of two results imo.
When I tested 11 overpool vs 14 pool, I got results similar to those he posted. I understand that you'll fight to the death defending this build at this point, but logically, it doesn't make sense that 11 overlord -> pool -> drone -> drone -> drone would mine as many minerals in the early game as 11 overlord -> drone -> drone -> drone -> pool. The drones in the 11-16 food period are earlier for the 14 pool. 11 pool sacrifices early minerals relative to 14 pool in exchange for an earlier queen.
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Yes, I dont understand why this is so controversial. It was established already during beta that you dont (economically speaking) need a finished expo until your main is saturated. That means, with 3 workers on gas and 2 initial Zerglings, and a queen; ie the expo should be finished at about 22 food at which point you do a maynard with 8 drones.
I dont know exactly when it has to be started to be finished at about 22 food, but 18 seems reasonable when considering spending drones on building buildings.
This describes a perfect economic opening. Then there are other resources to take into account; larvaeproduction, a possible negative effect on total gas, unit-timings in relation to opponent etc.
Just a few thoughts added in there.
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On December 11 2010 02:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:We have our final game from crixus here. I want to thank him for doing a great job showcasing this build against high-level opponents. He went 3-0 until he finally lost to HasHe. The early game clearly favored crixus to win his fourth game, but a poor battle engagement and a few macro mistakes allowed HasHe to claw his way back to a win.
By poor engage ment, you mean losing my entire army for nothing =P
Cant believe I diddnt see an empty extractor at my gold -.-
Ill get you next time Hashe!
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On December 11 2010 07:40 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 01:35 Obsolescence wrote:Here is some more data in graph form. Personally I'm ever more curious about the 11-OL / 12-Pool. It apparently only delays the pool by ~5 seconds, eliminates the larva waste (had to round up to 1 second), and appears to perform better economically, although I cant say for sure because I didn't run a multitude of trials. I also wish you wouldn't post test results that are inferior to the results I've already provided. You should always post the better of two results imo. When I tested 11 overpool vs 14 pool, I got results similar to those he posted. I understand that you'll fight to the death defending this build at this point, but logically, it doesn't make sense that 11 overlord -> pool -> drone -> drone -> drone would mine as many minerals in the early game as 11 overlord -> drone -> drone -> drone -> pool. The drones in the 11-16 food period are earlier for the 14 pool. 11 pool sacrifices early minerals relative to 14 pool in exchange for an earlier queen.
This isn't about fighting for the build, or what makes sense to you "logically." I have a replay right in the OP which is better than the results you guys are using to formulate arguments. Unless you think I somehow cheated the replay, then you need to use the better of the results. Or just pick the numbers that best help your argument I guess...
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On December 11 2010 08:06 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 07:40 kcdc wrote:On December 11 2010 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 01:35 Obsolescence wrote:Here is some more data in graph form. Personally I'm ever more curious about the 11-OL / 12-Pool. It apparently only delays the pool by ~5 seconds, eliminates the larva waste (had to round up to 1 second), and appears to perform better economically, although I cant say for sure because I didn't run a multitude of trials. I also wish you wouldn't post test results that are inferior to the results I've already provided. You should always post the better of two results imo. When I tested 11 overpool vs 14 pool, I got results similar to those he posted. I understand that you'll fight to the death defending this build at this point, but logically, it doesn't make sense that 11 overlord -> pool -> drone -> drone -> drone would mine as many minerals in the early game as 11 overlord -> drone -> drone -> drone -> pool. The drones in the 11-16 food period are earlier for the 14 pool. 11 pool sacrifices early minerals relative to 14 pool in exchange for an earlier queen. This isn't about fighting for the build, or what makes sense to you "logically." I have a replay right in the OP which is better than the results you guys are using to formulate arguments. Unless you think I somehow cheated the replay, then you need to use the better of the results. Or just pick the numbers that best help your argument I guess...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. One replay with a lot of flaws does not constitute adequate evidence that you can get more minerals by building your Drones later while otherwise building exactly the same things.
(And I don't see an 11 pool vs 14 pool clearly indicated in the OP -- just that 11 pool vs 15 hatch that people were criticizing, that I assume you're referring to)
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On December 11 2010 06:05 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 03:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 03:17 Inflexion wrote:The huge glaring problem I see with this build is 'what if the T decides to build a few marines with the 2rax and decides to march over to your base to fake an attack? and then just retreat. You will be forced to use the larva to make zerglings which puts you behind the T significantly. Not only that but you'll be forced to attack with the zerglings to do damage (you'll have useless zerlging sitting around as the T is walled in) AND having a much much later hatch (due to deviating from making lings instead of drones) or the T will be miles ahead coming out of early game, IMO. The thing with 14hatch over these early pool builds against T is that it already takes into account that the enemy is 2rax-ing. If they don't bunker rush with a few SCVs, then you're AT MINIMUM (with 14hatch) on par with the T's economy. Then the rest of the game can continue on an even basis. 14hatching already takes into account a 2rax opening; therefore, the rest comes down to micro to defend. If you can defend it, you'll be only slightly behind or best case, ahead. If you early pool, any better than your average joe Terran will just apply some early 'fake' pressure, march back to his base (you are forced to make zerglings instead of drones) and then you're royally screwed for late game if the T decides to in base CC and use wallin to defend your zerglings that you must do damage with. This is my personal opinion but I can see why ret/idra both are so firm on their stance with 14hatching (vs T). Because at the pro level, if you early pool, you place the ball into the T's hands. If they play their cards right, you'll be in such a disadvantage entering mid/late game. However, if you 14 hatch, you bring the ball back into the Z's court. 'You want to try 2rax, well then i'll 14hatch, COME GET ME!!' Essentially, the Z is forcing it to come down to micro, in which whoever is better at microing, will come out ahead or, in a few cases, win the game. Against P, I think early pool builds become more viable because 1. probes can't march across the map and build a bunker in your face 2. if they cannon rush, you don't have to deal with marines. all you gotta do is scout and denyt the cannon rush 3. if they send zealots + all probes to all in = lol NO MULES wut. 4. most imporantly, early lings means you can abuse advantage that comes with zerglings > zealots in small numbers It really comes down to personal preference in ZvP. Do you want to break your P opponent mentally (ie fuck with his mind and early pool/speedling/etc.) or are you more of a read and react/type macro player? I have no emperical data to base all this on but I would just like to add some input  This is very convoluted logic... So the weakness of the build is the ability to make too many lings? That doesn't make sense. And how is the 14 Hatch build surviving without having to make lings? This argument being repeated again and again just isn't thought through at all. People assume that terran is going 2rax and not attacking, and the idiot Zerg is just mindlessly pumping zerglings all game? How about putting down a couple spines and working towards banelings? I never heard ret or Idra make this argument. I don't know where it was heard or what context it was heard in. But the notion that one build is forced to build lings and the other isn't just doesn't make sense. Are you thinking that the 11 pool doesn't have an expansion? I don't get it at all honestly... Could someone please explain this to me so I can properly respond to all the people claiming that hatch first is safer against 2rax? Everything I read in the previous thread operated on the flawed assumption that pool first is for some reason forced to keep making lings. I just don't get it honestly... 100% agree with everything inflexion said. against terran 14 hatch is better for exactly the reasons he listed. on some maps this just isnt feasible so i 11pool there. 14 hatch u can plant a spine crawler asap. it might not finish but it will distract his forces long enough for yours to pop. a spine in your main is avoidable, a spine by the ramp is not. not to mention when the first queen inject pops you can make a lot of lings+nat larva too. if he was expoing during the attack and retreats and your nat is still up then you are at worst equal if not ahead (assuming he doesnt get past your ramp). on some maps you can make roaches that are so larva effecient you can make tons of drones too. against toss i am leaning towards 11pool as my standard. it feels like if he does choose to rush i am better prepared to handle it. 14pool/16 hatch feels late to me, and the 18 hatch when u 11pool is not that bad. against zerg i 11pool the majority of my games because it eats 6-7-8 pools easily.
I still don't see what the argument is... I doesn't make sense to me. The only thing that has made sense in this whole argument is "you can get an earlier spine." Is that what the whole argument comes down to? I must be missing something here because inflexion didn't even mention spines in his argument...
I'm still hoping someone can make sense of this for me.
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On December 11 2010 08:11 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 08:06 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 07:40 kcdc wrote:On December 11 2010 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 01:35 Obsolescence wrote:Here is some more data in graph form. Personally I'm ever more curious about the 11-OL / 12-Pool. It apparently only delays the pool by ~5 seconds, eliminates the larva waste (had to round up to 1 second), and appears to perform better economically, although I cant say for sure because I didn't run a multitude of trials. I also wish you wouldn't post test results that are inferior to the results I've already provided. You should always post the better of two results imo. When I tested 11 overpool vs 14 pool, I got results similar to those he posted. I understand that you'll fight to the death defending this build at this point, but logically, it doesn't make sense that 11 overlord -> pool -> drone -> drone -> drone would mine as many minerals in the early game as 11 overlord -> drone -> drone -> drone -> pool. The drones in the 11-16 food period are earlier for the 14 pool. 11 pool sacrifices early minerals relative to 14 pool in exchange for an earlier queen. This isn't about fighting for the build, or what makes sense to you "logically." I have a replay right in the OP which is better than the results you guys are using to formulate arguments. Unless you think I somehow cheated the replay, then you need to use the better of the results. Or just pick the numbers that best help your argument I guess... Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. One replay with a lot of flaws does not constitute adequate evidence that you can get more minerals by building your Drones later while otherwise building exactly the same things. (And I don't see an 11 pool vs 14 pool clearly indicated in the OP -- just that 11 pool vs 15 hatch that people were criticizing, that I assume you're referring to)
You clearly don't understand the debate here... I posted a replay showing I can get 1324 minerals by the 3:00 mark using 11Pool, and they are completely ignoring it and claiming you can only get 1200 or so... I just want them to stop using inferior numbers to help their arguments.
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I thought this build was kinda interesting so I made a Liquipedia entry for it:
 11 Overpool 16 Queen.
Please help me with updating the article. It specifically lacks build-order counters, map (dis)advantages and replays. A practical build order continuation after the queen pops is also wanted
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On December 11 2010 08:19 Blueblister wrote:I thought this build was kinda interesting so I made a Liquipedia entry for it: 11 Overpool 16 Queen. Please help me with updating the article. It specifically lacks build-order counters, map (dis)advantages and replays. A practical build order continuation after the queen pops is also wanted
I would appreciate this more if it didn't include statements that are still being debated and have little evidence to back them up.
Cuts drones early? When, how many, and for how long?
Lower mineral count? When, how much, and for how long?
Taking gas is more costly? How and why?
Spine crawler is more expensive? What?
And why are we claiming this build is countered by zealot pressure? Has this been tested and posted even once? I've read this entire thread through and I've never seen one replay of this build losing to zealot pressure.
I wish we wouldn't just make baseless claims like this, especially in the liquipedia...
I even went to the trouble of posting replays and a graph to try and show the first two points are wrong. No one has submitted data that can counter this data, since no one has been able to surpass the results I posted in the OP with any kind of 14 pool build.
Until we have some actual evidence to back up these claims, I think we should hold off on creating an opening page.
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On December 11 2010 08:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 06:05 Vaporized wrote:On December 11 2010 03:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 03:17 Inflexion wrote:The huge glaring problem I see with this build is 'what if the T decides to build a few marines with the 2rax and decides to march over to your base to fake an attack? and then just retreat. You will be forced to use the larva to make zerglings which puts you behind the T significantly. Not only that but you'll be forced to attack with the zerglings to do damage (you'll have useless zerlging sitting around as the T is walled in) AND having a much much later hatch (due to deviating from making lings instead of drones) or the T will be miles ahead coming out of early game, IMO. The thing with 14hatch over these early pool builds against T is that it already takes into account that the enemy is 2rax-ing. If they don't bunker rush with a few SCVs, then you're AT MINIMUM (with 14hatch) on par with the T's economy. Then the rest of the game can continue on an even basis. 14hatching already takes into account a 2rax opening; therefore, the rest comes down to micro to defend. If you can defend it, you'll be only slightly behind or best case, ahead. If you early pool, any better than your average joe Terran will just apply some early 'fake' pressure, march back to his base (you are forced to make zerglings instead of drones) and then you're royally screwed for late game if the T decides to in base CC and use wallin to defend your zerglings that you must do damage with. This is my personal opinion but I can see why ret/idra both are so firm on their stance with 14hatching (vs T). Because at the pro level, if you early pool, you place the ball into the T's hands. If they play their cards right, you'll be in such a disadvantage entering mid/late game. However, if you 14 hatch, you bring the ball back into the Z's court. 'You want to try 2rax, well then i'll 14hatch, COME GET ME!!' Essentially, the Z is forcing it to come down to micro, in which whoever is better at microing, will come out ahead or, in a few cases, win the game. Against P, I think early pool builds become more viable because 1. probes can't march across the map and build a bunker in your face 2. if they cannon rush, you don't have to deal with marines. all you gotta do is scout and denyt the cannon rush 3. if they send zealots + all probes to all in = lol NO MULES wut. 4. most imporantly, early lings means you can abuse advantage that comes with zerglings > zealots in small numbers It really comes down to personal preference in ZvP. Do you want to break your P opponent mentally (ie fuck with his mind and early pool/speedling/etc.) or are you more of a read and react/type macro player? I have no emperical data to base all this on but I would just like to add some input This is very convoluted logic... So the weakness of the build is the ability to make too many lings? That doesn't make sense. And how is the 14 Hatch build surviving without having to make lings? This argument being repeated again and again just isn't thought through at all. People assume that terran is going 2rax and not attacking, and the idiot Zerg is just mindlessly pumping zerglings all game? How about putting down a couple spines and working towards banelings? I never heard ret or Idra make this argument. I don't know where it was heard or what context it was heard in. But the notion that one build is forced to build lings and the other isn't just doesn't make sense. Are you thinking that the 11 pool doesn't have an expansion? I don't get it at all honestly... Could someone please explain this to me so I can properly respond to all the people claiming that hatch first is safer against 2rax? Everything I read in the previous thread operated on the flawed assumption that pool first is for some reason forced to keep making lings. I just don't get it honestly... 100% agree with everything inflexion said. against terran 14 hatch is better for exactly the reasons he listed. on some maps this just isnt feasible so i 11pool there. 14 hatch u can plant a spine crawler asap. it might not finish but it will distract his forces long enough for yours to pop. a spine in your main is avoidable, a spine by the ramp is not. not to mention when the first queen inject pops you can make a lot of lings+nat larva too. if he was expoing during the attack and retreats and your nat is still up then you are at worst equal if not ahead (assuming he doesnt get past your ramp). on some maps you can make roaches that are so larva effecient you can make tons of drones too. against toss i am leaning towards 11pool as my standard. it feels like if he does choose to rush i am better prepared to handle it. 14pool/16 hatch feels late to me, and the 18 hatch when u 11pool is not that bad. against zerg i 11pool the majority of my games because it eats 6-7-8 pools easily. I still don't see what the argument is... I doesn't make sense to me. The only thing that has made sense in this whole argument is "you can get an earlier spine." Is that what the whole argument comes down to? I must be missing something here because inflexion didn't even mention spines in his argument... I'm still hoping someone can make sense of this for me.
how does what he says about 11pool in the face of marine pressure not make sense? if u 11 pool and he feigns pressure, making u make lings, u are behind. if u 14 hatch and defend u are at worst equal. any other scenario u are ahead. 14 hatch is better economically then 11 pool, yes? if u can get away with 14 hatch, and in fact it is easier to hold, why wouldnt u do that? feigning pressure can be a cascade effect, decreasing drone/mineral count and delaying the second hatch.
i would rather the marine rush battle take place at my nat instead of in my main where buildings and overlords are floating around. creep spread means bunkers must be placed further away (out of marine range of the hatch). the spine is also key. 1 spine will basically negate his entire rush if it finishes or buy u time for lings to pop, something an 11 pool does not have the option of at all.
you can search for the thread about ret's comments on this issue on tl.
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I've been experimenting with this lately and I've been having moderate success with it. It works great against early rushes, as it gives you a quick pool and an expansion to grow on.
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On December 11 2010 08:35 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 08:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 06:05 Vaporized wrote:On December 11 2010 03:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 03:17 Inflexion wrote:The huge glaring problem I see with this build is 'what if the T decides to build a few marines with the 2rax and decides to march over to your base to fake an attack? and then just retreat. You will be forced to use the larva to make zerglings which puts you behind the T significantly. Not only that but you'll be forced to attack with the zerglings to do damage (you'll have useless zerlging sitting around as the T is walled in) AND having a much much later hatch (due to deviating from making lings instead of drones) or the T will be miles ahead coming out of early game, IMO. The thing with 14hatch over these early pool builds against T is that it already takes into account that the enemy is 2rax-ing. If they don't bunker rush with a few SCVs, then you're AT MINIMUM (with 14hatch) on par with the T's economy. Then the rest of the game can continue on an even basis. 14hatching already takes into account a 2rax opening; therefore, the rest comes down to micro to defend. If you can defend it, you'll be only slightly behind or best case, ahead. If you early pool, any better than your average joe Terran will just apply some early 'fake' pressure, march back to his base (you are forced to make zerglings instead of drones) and then you're royally screwed for late game if the T decides to in base CC and use wallin to defend your zerglings that you must do damage with. This is my personal opinion but I can see why ret/idra both are so firm on their stance with 14hatching (vs T). Because at the pro level, if you early pool, you place the ball into the T's hands. If they play their cards right, you'll be in such a disadvantage entering mid/late game. However, if you 14 hatch, you bring the ball back into the Z's court. 'You want to try 2rax, well then i'll 14hatch, COME GET ME!!' Essentially, the Z is forcing it to come down to micro, in which whoever is better at microing, will come out ahead or, in a few cases, win the game. Against P, I think early pool builds become more viable because 1. probes can't march across the map and build a bunker in your face 2. if they cannon rush, you don't have to deal with marines. all you gotta do is scout and denyt the cannon rush 3. if they send zealots + all probes to all in = lol NO MULES wut. 4. most imporantly, early lings means you can abuse advantage that comes with zerglings > zealots in small numbers It really comes down to personal preference in ZvP. Do you want to break your P opponent mentally (ie fuck with his mind and early pool/speedling/etc.) or are you more of a read and react/type macro player? I have no emperical data to base all this on but I would just like to add some input This is very convoluted logic... So the weakness of the build is the ability to make too many lings? That doesn't make sense. And how is the 14 Hatch build surviving without having to make lings? This argument being repeated again and again just isn't thought through at all. People assume that terran is going 2rax and not attacking, and the idiot Zerg is just mindlessly pumping zerglings all game? How about putting down a couple spines and working towards banelings? I never heard ret or Idra make this argument. I don't know where it was heard or what context it was heard in. But the notion that one build is forced to build lings and the other isn't just doesn't make sense. Are you thinking that the 11 pool doesn't have an expansion? I don't get it at all honestly... Could someone please explain this to me so I can properly respond to all the people claiming that hatch first is safer against 2rax? Everything I read in the previous thread operated on the flawed assumption that pool first is for some reason forced to keep making lings. I just don't get it honestly... 100% agree with everything inflexion said. against terran 14 hatch is better for exactly the reasons he listed. on some maps this just isnt feasible so i 11pool there. 14 hatch u can plant a spine crawler asap. it might not finish but it will distract his forces long enough for yours to pop. a spine in your main is avoidable, a spine by the ramp is not. not to mention when the first queen inject pops you can make a lot of lings+nat larva too. if he was expoing during the attack and retreats and your nat is still up then you are at worst equal if not ahead (assuming he doesnt get past your ramp). on some maps you can make roaches that are so larva effecient you can make tons of drones too. against toss i am leaning towards 11pool as my standard. it feels like if he does choose to rush i am better prepared to handle it. 14pool/16 hatch feels late to me, and the 18 hatch when u 11pool is not that bad. against zerg i 11pool the majority of my games because it eats 6-7-8 pools easily. I still don't see what the argument is... I doesn't make sense to me. The only thing that has made sense in this whole argument is "you can get an earlier spine." Is that what the whole argument comes down to? I must be missing something here because inflexion didn't even mention spines in his argument... I'm still hoping someone can make sense of this for me. how does what he says about 11pool in the face of marine pressure not make sense? if u 11 pool and he feigns pressure, making u make lings, u are behind. if u 14 hatch and defend u are at worst equal. any other scenario u are ahead. 14 hatch is better economically then 11 pool, yes? if u can get away with 14 hatch, and in fact it is easier to hold, why wouldnt u do that? feigning pressure can be a cascade effect, decreasing drone/mineral count and delaying the second hatch. i would rather the marine rush battle take place at my nat instead of in my main where buildings and overlords are floating around. creep spread means bunkers must be placed further away (out of marine range of the hatch). the spine is also key. 1 spine will basically negate his entire rush if it finishes or buy u time for lings to pop, something an 11 pool does not have the option of at all. you can search for the thread about ret's comments on this issue on tl.
So the problem is that you guys believe zerg is on one base with the 11Pool... This is not the case. Zerg has an expo up in the 11Pool build as well. Also, you cannot assume the 11 Pool is producing more lings than the 14 Hatch due to feigning pressure. Why not assume that both builds are responding with the same zergling production?
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Data from the thread that jacobman mentioned (where we have the AI execute the build orders rather than relying on fallible human comparisons) seems to indicate that OP's testing methodology was flawed and inconsistent, and that 13p15h is in fact superior to 11p both economically and in larvae production, and seems (at least so far) to be the *best* compromise between hatch time and early queen production.
I still think the 11pool's psychological effect can be absolutely HUGE, and it's worth having in your repertoire for that reason alone, and I think it would be a lot harder to turn 13p15h into insane early one-base pressure.
But to be quite frank, the OP has gone from informant to fanatic over the course of this thread, and although I was one of the ones defending him and this build early (because his results coincided with my own testing), at this point he's flat out ridiculing any data that doesn't match his own (even when that data is far more consistent and reliable), and is doing the thread an even bigger disservice than he's done already.
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On December 11 2010 08:43 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 08:35 Vaporized wrote:On December 11 2010 08:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 06:05 Vaporized wrote:On December 11 2010 03:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 11 2010 03:17 Inflexion wrote:The huge glaring problem I see with this build is 'what if the T decides to build a few marines with the 2rax and decides to march over to your base to fake an attack? and then just retreat. You will be forced to use the larva to make zerglings which puts you behind the T significantly. Not only that but you'll be forced to attack with the zerglings to do damage (you'll have useless zerlging sitting around as the T is walled in) AND having a much much later hatch (due to deviating from making lings instead of drones) or the T will be miles ahead coming out of early game, IMO. The thing with 14hatch over these early pool builds against T is that it already takes into account that the enemy is 2rax-ing. If they don't bunker rush with a few SCVs, then you're AT MINIMUM (with 14hatch) on par with the T's economy. Then the rest of the game can continue on an even basis. 14hatching already takes into account a 2rax opening; therefore, the rest comes down to micro to defend. If you can defend it, you'll be only slightly behind or best case, ahead. If you early pool, any better than your average joe Terran will just apply some early 'fake' pressure, march back to his base (you are forced to make zerglings instead of drones) and then you're royally screwed for late game if the T decides to in base CC and use wallin to defend your zerglings that you must do damage with. This is my personal opinion but I can see why ret/idra both are so firm on their stance with 14hatching (vs T). Because at the pro level, if you early pool, you place the ball into the T's hands. If they play their cards right, you'll be in such a disadvantage entering mid/late game. However, if you 14 hatch, you bring the ball back into the Z's court. 'You want to try 2rax, well then i'll 14hatch, COME GET ME!!' Essentially, the Z is forcing it to come down to micro, in which whoever is better at microing, will come out ahead or, in a few cases, win the game. Against P, I think early pool builds become more viable because 1. probes can't march across the map and build a bunker in your face 2. if they cannon rush, you don't have to deal with marines. all you gotta do is scout and denyt the cannon rush 3. if they send zealots + all probes to all in = lol NO MULES wut. 4. most imporantly, early lings means you can abuse advantage that comes with zerglings > zealots in small numbers It really comes down to personal preference in ZvP. Do you want to break your P opponent mentally (ie fuck with his mind and early pool/speedling/etc.) or are you more of a read and react/type macro player? I have no emperical data to base all this on but I would just like to add some input This is very convoluted logic... So the weakness of the build is the ability to make too many lings? That doesn't make sense. And how is the 14 Hatch build surviving without having to make lings? This argument being repeated again and again just isn't thought through at all. People assume that terran is going 2rax and not attacking, and the idiot Zerg is just mindlessly pumping zerglings all game? How about putting down a couple spines and working towards banelings? I never heard ret or Idra make this argument. I don't know where it was heard or what context it was heard in. But the notion that one build is forced to build lings and the other isn't just doesn't make sense. Are you thinking that the 11 pool doesn't have an expansion? I don't get it at all honestly... Could someone please explain this to me so I can properly respond to all the people claiming that hatch first is safer against 2rax? Everything I read in the previous thread operated on the flawed assumption that pool first is for some reason forced to keep making lings. I just don't get it honestly... 100% agree with everything inflexion said. against terran 14 hatch is better for exactly the reasons he listed. on some maps this just isnt feasible so i 11pool there. 14 hatch u can plant a spine crawler asap. it might not finish but it will distract his forces long enough for yours to pop. a spine in your main is avoidable, a spine by the ramp is not. not to mention when the first queen inject pops you can make a lot of lings+nat larva too. if he was expoing during the attack and retreats and your nat is still up then you are at worst equal if not ahead (assuming he doesnt get past your ramp). on some maps you can make roaches that are so larva effecient you can make tons of drones too. against toss i am leaning towards 11pool as my standard. it feels like if he does choose to rush i am better prepared to handle it. 14pool/16 hatch feels late to me, and the 18 hatch when u 11pool is not that bad. against zerg i 11pool the majority of my games because it eats 6-7-8 pools easily. I still don't see what the argument is... I doesn't make sense to me. The only thing that has made sense in this whole argument is "you can get an earlier spine." Is that what the whole argument comes down to? I must be missing something here because inflexion didn't even mention spines in his argument... I'm still hoping someone can make sense of this for me. how does what he says about 11pool in the face of marine pressure not make sense? if u 11 pool and he feigns pressure, making u make lings, u are behind. if u 14 hatch and defend u are at worst equal. any other scenario u are ahead. 14 hatch is better economically then 11 pool, yes? if u can get away with 14 hatch, and in fact it is easier to hold, why wouldnt u do that? feigning pressure can be a cascade effect, decreasing drone/mineral count and delaying the second hatch. i would rather the marine rush battle take place at my nat instead of in my main where buildings and overlords are floating around. creep spread means bunkers must be placed further away (out of marine range of the hatch). the spine is also key. 1 spine will basically negate his entire rush if it finishes or buy u time for lings to pop, something an 11 pool does not have the option of at all. you can search for the thread about ret's comments on this issue on tl. So the problem is that you guys believe zerg is on one base with the 11Pool... This is not the case. Zerg has an expo up in the 11Pool build as well. Also, you cannot assume the 11 Pool is producing more lings than the 14 Hatch due to feigning pressure. Why not assume that both builds are responding with the same zergling production?
an 18 hatch will be ~halfway done when marines arrive. that is not helpful.
the difference in zergling production is that on 2 hatch's you can afford to make lings and drones, on 1 hatch you dont have enough larva for both. even worse is the situation where u 11 pool and make drones, only to see marines on the way. u are fucked. with a second hatch u have more wiggle room.
in ladder games i actually feel safer 14 hatching. i know he is bringing marines to punish my hatch. when u 11pool u set yourself up for the situation where he scouts the 11 pool and then punishes whatever your decision was - if u made lings he macros, if u made drones he marine rushes. i dont like being in that position.
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Another thing that came from the AI testing: it's *very* difficult to get consistent readings, even if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that everything is happening exactly the same way every game, and that extremely small things (such as where exactly a larva happens to be when a drone is made from it, or how exactly you manage any sort of worker transfer) can make large differences at the end of 6 minutes.
Any economic results with a difference of less than 70 or 80 minerals can very easily be attributed to these small variances, because until I added extra work to make things even more consistent, I saw that much variance in the AI executing the same build order over and over with *exactly* the same timings every game.
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just tried this against a 2100+ terran who raged quit on me. very nice strat so far but i will keep needing to tune it. still not sure when to get that extractor exactly. ty!
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On December 11 2010 10:03 Vaporized wrote:
the difference in zergling production is that on 2 hatch's you can afford to make lings and drones, on 1 hatch you dont have enough larva for both. even worse is the situation where u 11 pool and make drones, only to see marines on the way. u are fucked. with a second hatch u have more wiggle room.
13pool/15hatch (which as far as I can tell, actually appears to be the *best* pool-first build economically, despite the OP's flawed results) gets the hatch up reasonably quickly, doesn't make as much of an economic sacrifice as 11pool, *and* gets about a 2 larvae advantage over both 11pool and 14hatch builds.
To be honest, though, if you *can* hold with 14hatch, then that's exactly what you should do. 14h followed by 15 or 14pool is clearly better economically than any pool-first build, by a significant amount.
But if larvae is your concern, 13p15h appears to beat everything else out, at least up through the first 6 minutes.
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Skrag, I believe that the first rule of the strategy forum is "everything you say must be supported by evidence."
If you would just provide any evidence at all that my data is flawed, then I would listen to it. You have no data, only claims that my testing is flawed. I have my evidence. Until anyone in this entire thread can post a single replay outperforming my 11Pool replay, then I would appreciate it if everyone would stop repeating things that cannot be supported by evidence.
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EPT
