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[G] TheCore Lite - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 32
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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blarkh
Austria72 Posts
Another thing, though. I've been playing with chameleon the last couple of days now, and the one thing that's somewhat annoying is that you can't 'trill' for drones. If I remember correctly, WoL chameleon had Select Larvae on S and Morph into Drone on D, so when I wanted to build drones I would just go sdsdsdsdsdsdsdsdsdsd. Now I have to do sssssssssssss which is a lot harder and slower. Also, building an overlord (while waiting for the minerals to go to 100) would be something like svsvsvsvsvssvsvsvsvsvsvsv. But if I do that now, I end up building a drone  | ||
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MilExo
South Africa139 Posts
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blarkh
Austria72 Posts
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MilExo
South Africa139 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT Work as begun on TheCore Lite. This will replace Chameleon. Download will continue to be available for Chameleon in the Skydrive, however, this thread will be re-titled TheCore Lite and there will be some major changes incoming to bring this layout up to speed with all of the things we've learned about Hotkeys in the past year and a half of work on TheCore. I'll be updating this thread with ideas we're working on and give a download link to the current file as it develops. EDIT: Time to make decisions. When I made Chameleon I did it alone. TheCore was a group effort and was much more successful. and as this is TheCore Lite we will make this a group effort. So, we have some decisions to make and ideas to debate. Let's get at it. HOME KEYS First off, we have to decide on a home key position. We can use Shift AWD (which is more familiar to WASD players as well as many SC2 players saying this position is better for Sc2. Or we can use ASDF which is more familiar to anyone who has learned to touch type. Since this layout is a "Lite" version of TheCore I think its best to take the advantage of not going 100% gung-ho efficiency and sticking to what will make the transition easier for the most amount of people. So: Familiarity or Efficiency ASDF or WASD A third option exists. We can try to do a hybrid of the two, (which was semi-successful for Chameleon). This was tricky as fuck and caused a lot of problems and less than ideal situations. I'm leaning away from this option, but its always hanging out there if someone wants to take a stab at it. Also, If we use WASD, the Alt modifier becomes much more accessible. This should not be overlooked. MODIFIERS The Combination of Modifiers is what will get us that compact layout that we need for optimum efficiency. TheCore Modifiers are superior IMO to any others and are as follows: Ctrl+Shift = Create CG Shift = Recall Camera Alt = Set Camera (and center of current selection) Ctrl = Add to CG The synergy with Ctrl and add to CG is pretty much a no-brainer. Shift and Ctrl+Shift both have good synergy with Create CG Shift has crazy good synergy with Recall Camera Alt is... well, its alt. This pretty much leaves us with the above allocation of modifiers. I don't see any superior alternatives, but let me know if you have any better way to do this. CGS AND ABILITIES If we assume that we're using Ctrl+Shift for create CG then the CG side has to be the left side. Since Ctrl+Shift is the most limiting modifier we should set the CGs by the area that we can press CGs with the index and middle fingers comfortable while pressing Ctrl+Shift with the pinky and ring finger. Which I think gives us the following: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AVPBMFq.png) What to do with the number row, I'm not 100% sure. Using the CG side numbers for abilities would cause finger repetition. Using them for CGs is a hell of a reach for ctrl+shift. And since this is the Lite version, I think cutting it back to 6-7 CGs would be best. Which brings us to.... THE SPACEBAR Let's make this shit happen! The Spacebar is such an easy key. We used to use it for next subgroup, but I'm thinking it might be nice as a CG. Also having it for rapid fire might be super cool, especially for protoss. A regular ability is also an option. So basically what I'm saying is we could use it for anything. What do you all think? I think that's about it for now. Let's make an excellent layout | ||
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Karnul
United States39 Posts
Home keys - I originally thought home row ASDF should be the way to go, because those are already the learned home row keys and you have access to another column of keys on the right hand side (compared to if your hand is shifted left one column to be in ShiftAWD position). But, the modifiers Shift and Ctrl are used so commonly, the pinky is frequently around Shift rather than Q\A\Z, which causes your hand to be shifted over the the ShiftAWD position anyway. I'm curious if a ShiftAWD position will still offer enough buttons to handle everything. A column of keys is lost, but Alt is in a better position. Modifiers - I guess this is common knowledge to those who are following theCore. I assume you mean how ctrl always selects all of the same type on the screen. I'm not sure what the others are about. Spacebar - If it's no longer for Next Subgroup, do you no longer do tabbed production? | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
I'm leaning toward shiftAWD because shift is used so often anyway. We might gain a row by moving to ASDF but the issue is we lose speed on Ctrl+Shift, Shift, Ctrl, Alt... well... so all the modifer combinations become significantly slower. I think we can afford to lose that row and have the better modifier combinations. In the mock-up I made we have 11 ability keys which is what we need (might be 12, but I'm pretty sure larva is the most and it is 11. And that's without using the # row. Modifiers - Best explained here: Alt is kind of a leftover and happens to work out really well with the center on current selection etc. I was thinking to put next and previous subgroup on the mouse like TheCore. But maybe as this is the Lite version its best to make it super accessible and not do this. If we go that route, Spacebar is probably the best place for next subgroup. (I really really like the subgroup on the mouse tho... Its OP) | ||
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WolfBro
United States59 Posts
I ask because 3 days ago I finally took the leap to learn a new hotkey setup after going back and forth on it for over a year. I started with chameleon as a base and changed a few things for my preference and I've been drilling it everyday. I'm essentially trying to decide if I should continue on with my current setup or wait for a version of this to be available. I guess it would also depend on how much this will change chameleon. I have one feedback comment to provide from my efforts learning Chameleon. I find myself wishing there was a more obvious method to the madness of production hotkeys. Meaning just that it appears that decisions were made purely on what units are produced more often (that's my guess at least). I kind of wish there was a little more consistency, leaning towards a grid layout for production. All the keys being used are pretty fast to press, especially when using D and G as the production groups. I'm very visual and just wish that the key for a unit was inline with the actual layout of the command card. If a partial goal is making it easier for people to learn, consistency between the production layout would be easier to learn than memorizing single hotkeys for each unit in each production facility without the key having any obvious indication of why it's for that particular unit. Granted, this shouldn't be much of a concern if the benefits of the particular layout are great as it only matters in the beginning while you are memorizing the keys. For several days I was debating changing them around to make them consistent in a grid like manner but in the end I decided to just keep them the way they are, putting faith in you putting them there for good reason originally, and I'm just working on hard memorizing. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Concerning units. We'll be moving to a cost model, so the cheapest unit will be on the best key, and the most expensive on the worst key. This will keep things independent of the meta game. We will be incorporating lots of consistency, but it will not be a grid layout. Your conscious mind may think that a grid layout is easier to learn and more intuitive, but our testing and feedback from TheCore has shown otherwise. Based on our results, players tend to make links to game elements much faster and more often than links to position on the command card. For example, to research storm will be the same key as to make a HT, and also the same key to build a templar archives. We will be focusing on these types of consistency as they require less of a sacrifice in efficiency and produce an easier learning curve than using the command card. | ||
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WolfBro
United States59 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Here's what we've got done today. The Basis of the Layout is complete, so you can probably build your own file with this information if you really want TheCore Lite now ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Yz3Stkx.png) | ||
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Karnul
United States39 Posts
With that layout above, an ability key is on the index finger, which means we no longer have the 2 production CGs on middle and index finger. Do you think you'll change D into a CG or use ring and middle finger for production CGs? Very interested to see how the "game element consistency" method works out. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
With the layout above you have 2 homekey CGs and 2 homekey Abilities, just like TheCore. So they will likely work in a similar way. Using the thumb to press both spacebar and B to rapid fire inject is really awesome, however that would make D attack or primary ability (storm, fungal, ff, emp etc). A lot of primary abilites for units are time sensitive so having them on the homekeys is preferred. Ideally we'd have the thumb on shift, but as it is not we're in a wierd spot. We must decide what will go on the 2 ability home keys: Attack move Rapid Fire Primary Ability Going to be tricky for sure. We're pretty set on the way the CGs and abilities are at this point so you can expect that they will stay the same. A and W will most certainly be production. Not 100% decided on which one will go where just yet. I'm think hatches on W so that way we can put select larva on caps lock or tab (reducing finger repetition). Now that I'm typing it out, I'm really leaning in that direction. The middle finger also has more potential for dexterity than the ring finger, so that'll probably work out really well. I must say, its pretty fun to design a layout like this where I can actually give people what they want rather than what is most efficient. Because not everyone wants every tiniest bit of efficiency they can get. As for the game element consistency, it works out very well, I think you are going to like it a lot Speaking of efficiency and fringe abilities/situations. Its time to make our next major decsion: PHASM! This is the phase in development where we decide which of the shared movement commands we'll put in the layout. The less we have, the faster the rest of the layout becomes, the more we have, the slower it becomes. So what's it going to be? Patrol Hold Position Attack Stop Move I'm tempted to go with Attack and Hold Position only, but I think the minimum we can do is PHA. Stop is useful, but rarely, and we are designing this layout for casual players who don't really want every bit of efficiency and utility that is possible in a layout. So, I'm leaning toward PHA. What do you all think? | ||
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Karnul
United States39 Posts
PHASM - Right off the bat, I would drop Move, because with it on Right Click, I haven't found a use for it having a key. I rarely use Stop, because Hold Position has served Stop's purpose and has more utility. So that leaves me with Patrol, Hold, and Attack. Of these three, I would say I used them in an order of frequency of: Attack, Hold Position, Patrol. I use Patrol occasionally and would like to keep it somewhere. I guess it doesn't have to be in an optimal position. So, I think we have the same opinion here. I could probably get by with only Attack and Hold, but would like to keep Patrol somewhere. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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Brainiak
Germany91 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Definitely a possibility. The Issue is that we need a decent number of CGs. I'd say the minimum I'd do is 7, but 8 is nice. Maybe make Space a CG and keep A as Attack Move? The other issue is that if we change A to an ability, then we'll have finger repetition with the CGs on that finger which is not acceptable for that gain. There may be other creative solutions we've yet to consider though... | ||
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ffhighwind
United States10 Posts
I'm definitely liking some ideas of this layout... even though it's not done yet. My HOME keys are QWE from playing a lot of League of Legends, but may swap to AWD in this case. I'm unsure on PHASM. I think I use Stop more than Patrol, but I haven't started playing ranked yet. Move is obviously useless. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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