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On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote:
How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
Howto defend 8/8/8 in tvt! and dont forget that building a bunker +factory before your 2nd CC if needed to stop an allin is worth the 25 minerals u loose after salvaging it. This buildorder stops early aggression, i didnt say allins. But after u stop the 8/8/8 or weaker reaperopener, the guidelines/aim of the build stays practically the same (phase 1 and phase 2 when going for late game).
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On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote:
How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then?
You will be able to hold it, the 3rd and 4th marine should come out right as 2 reapers reach your base, with some micro you should be able to keep your marines alive.
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On May 16 2013 09:50 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote:
How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then? Howto defend 8/8/8 in tvt! and dont forget that building a bunker +factory before your 2nd CC if needed to stop an allin is worth the 25 minerals u loose after salvaging it. This buildorder stops early aggression, i didnt say allins. But after u stop the 8/8/8 or weaker reaperopener, the guidelines/aim of the build stays practically the same (phase 1 and phase 2 when going for late game).
I don't mean 8-8-8 though, I mean 12 barracks 14(?) barracks reapers, followed by CC. It is not a cheese by any means, it's a standard macro opening. But like someone else said, you might get 4 marines in time. On certain maps though they will have a hard time vs reapers (Neo Planet for example).
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On May 16 2013 10:00 BaaL` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 09:50 govie wrote:On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote:
How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then? Howto defend 8/8/8 in tvt! and dont forget that building a bunker +factory before your 2nd CC if needed to stop an allin is worth the 25 minerals u loose after salvaging it. This buildorder stops early aggression, i didnt say allins. But after u stop the 8/8/8 or weaker reaperopener, the guidelines/aim of the build stays practically the same (phase 1 and phase 2 when going for late game). I don't mean 8-8-8 though, I mean 12 barracks 14(?) barracks reapers, followed by CC. It is not a cheese by any means, it's a standard macro opening. But like someone else said, you might get 4 marines in time. On certain maps though they will have a hard time vs reapers (Neo Planet for example).
Not a big deal, but give me a replay were someone doing a forgg similar opening got defeated by late double reapers and ill analyze it!^^
Edit : And ofcourse u will loose some stuff but he loses certainly more then 100 gas and missed out minerals! as forGG uses only gas on buildings and flyers untill very late in the game, u will be way ahead in the tech department and your harras around 7 minutes has got more chances of doing real eco damage. 2nd, i am not a fan of reapers in tvt (im biased), i believe they are loosy gasheavy units that delay everything. That 50 gas early translates to alot more stuff later in midgame and chances are u will loose some reapers. Yes u can scout, but what u want to scout for so early what cant be scouted around 7 minutes with a drop in his main and for the 50 gas it costs the dps really sux.
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On May 16 2013 10:04 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 10:00 BaaL` wrote:On May 16 2013 09:50 govie wrote:On May 16 2013 09:47 BaaL` wrote:
How does this handle 2-barracks reapers? It is not mentioned in the OP, and with only 2 marines before reactor it might have some issues with it. The hellions will get out fast, but are you ok until then? Howto defend 8/8/8 in tvt! and dont forget that building a bunker +factory before your 2nd CC if needed to stop an allin is worth the 25 minerals u loose after salvaging it. This buildorder stops early aggression, i didnt say allins. But after u stop the 8/8/8 or weaker reaperopener, the guidelines/aim of the build stays practically the same (phase 1 and phase 2 when going for late game). I don't mean 8-8-8 though, I mean 12 barracks 14(?) barracks reapers, followed by CC. It is not a cheese by any means, it's a standard macro opening. But like someone else said, you might get 4 marines in time. On certain maps though they will have a hard time vs reapers (Neo Planet for example). Not a big deal, but give me a replay were someone doing a forgg similar opening got defeated by late double reapers and ill analyze it!^^
Even on Neo Planet S your 3rd and 4th marine will still pop out in time. fought a 12/12 2 rax reaper with one of the rax proxied and still held it off.
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Hmm ok well I will try it in some practice games with friends
Beside that very nice OP, only note I would make is that the 5 banshee response to cloak was probably impromptu, I mean at least the number of banshee is.
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On May 16 2013 10:33 BaaL` wrote:Hmm ok well I will try it in some practice games with friends Beside that very nice OP, only note I would make is that the 5 banshee response to cloak was probably impromptu, I mean at least the number of banshee is.
Well im also still fiddling with his style (its more of a style then a build really), but im learning.
And i agree that how i formulated that allin, was a bit clumby. Ill edit the OP tommorow with all the feedback, addons and discussions. The OP will be be a summary of how TL's community has broken forGG's brain up in little tiny segments
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I'll try this build in some games today, let's see how its works, ty for the nice guide 
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To finalize everything. There are some more situations i didnt see forGG handle, but i want to add them in the guide anyway. It would be our gift to forGG
Proxymarauderrush
At the time this hits 3:40, u have 2 marines, walloff depot/depot/rax is complete and ur reactor is just building. The aggresor has 1 marauder+1 or more scv's. Howto counter this proxymarauder:
1. Cancel reactor asap (u will loose it anyway)
2. Pull some scv's to tank and the 2 marines and chase the marauders down the ramp. Yes most will die, but thats ok.
3. Immediatly build a bunker at the ramp.Place rax behind it and start building marines.
Can some masterplayer confim this is the best way to handle proxymarauder given the situation at 3:40 (he 1 marauder+1 scv or more : you have 2 marines and scv's)?
8/8/8
howto defend the 8/8/8 by our TL hero.... Downfall
Airsuperiority
And airsuperiority ill add too. forGG allways wanted/worked too airsuperiority in those 4 games. Because he doesnt build more then 1 medivac, i believe he will allmost allways have airsupiriority. But lets say u dont have it, ill add something about that aswell (switch starport, build extra starport, use pdd to get airsuperiority with less vikings etc.).
His allin with 5 banshees and alot of hellions
What was his thoughtproces when he chose for the allin. I ask this because some posters had a different opinion about why he chose for an allin given the situation.
What are your opinions about it? is it the cloaked banshee, that gave him the idea MMA didnt have many tanks or gasheavy units except banshees. or was it he saw he was behind economically and it was too hard to catch up? Or something else? Spam opinions plz, i want to guide to be accurate! Why the f&^% did he chose the allin?
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I think the 5 banshees was at least in part because he felt he was behind (he was). It is very risky to do otherwise, you could easily get caught out if your opponent made more vikings than you and/or a raven.
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Can this hold against LucifroN's double medivac hellbat drop and thor rush?
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Thank you for breaking down ForGGs decision making and reactions. This build is actually the same opener that's been used quite often since WOL and HoTS beta. I recall MVP using this quite often in IEM. It's really great though how you broke down the composition and reactions. Will be very helpful.
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Hellions are good when your opponent still have a small amount of units but in 200/200 battles, they're not that good, hellbats are better.
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Updated thx to the comments till May 17 2013 00:37.
1. Edited pics and why he chose for the 5 banshee semi allin.
2. *phase
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I can't find when he takes his 2nd main gas in your bo.
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On May 16 2013 22:34 govie wrote:
Proxymarauderrush
At the time this hits 3:40, u have 2 marines, walloff depot/depot/rax is complete and ur reactor is just building. The aggresor has 1 marauder+1 or more scv's. Howto counter this proxymarauder:
1. Cancel reactor asap (u will loose it anyway)
2. Pull some scv's to tank and the 2 marines and chase the marauders down the ramp. Yes most will die, but thats ok.
3. Immediatly build a bunker at the ramp.Place rax behind it and start building marines.
Can some masterplayer confim this is the best way to handle proxymarauder given the situation at 3:40 (he 1 marauder+1 scv or more : you have 2 marines and scv's)?
Confirmed, except moving back the rax is unnecessary.
On May 16 2013 22:34 govie wrote:His allin with 5 banshees and alot of hellionsWhat was his thoughtproces when he chose for the allin. I ask this because some posters had a different opinion about why he chose for an allin given the situation. What are your opinions about it? is it the cloaked banshee, that gave him the idea MMA didnt have many tanks or gasheavy units except banshees. or was it he saw he was behind economically and it was too hard to catch up? Or something else? Spam opinions plz, i want to guide to be accurate! Why the f&^% did he chose the allin?
He went this all-in because he was impossibly behind in a normal game due to the econ damage he had suffered from MMA's Cloak Banshees, so he chose to exploit MMA's low Marine count (since he was also producing Marauders and Tanks) and his gamble worked due to MMA not having a Bunker + having a drop with 8 Marines in movement towards ForGG's main when ForGG arrived in his natural.
On May 17 2013 20:27 Algis wrote:
I can't find when he takes his 2nd main gas in your bo.
5'45.
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On May 17 2013 20:42 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 22:34 govie wrote:
Proxymarauderrush
At the time this hits 3:40, u have 2 marines, walloff depot/depot/rax is complete and ur reactor is just building. The aggresor has 1 marauder+1 or more scv's. Howto counter this proxymarauder:
1. Cancel reactor asap (u will loose it anyway)
2. Pull some scv's to tank and the 2 marines and chase the marauders down the ramp. Yes most will die, but thats ok.
3. Immediatly build a bunker at the ramp.Place rax behind it and start building marines.
Can some masterplayer confim this is the best way to handle proxymarauder given the situation at 3:40 (he 1 marauder+1 scv or more : you have 2 marines and scv's)? Confirmed, except moving back the rax is unnecessary. Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 22:34 govie wrote:His allin with 5 banshees and alot of hellionsWhat was his thoughtproces when he chose for the allin. I ask this because some posters had a different opinion about why he chose for an allin given the situation. What are your opinions about it? is it the cloaked banshee, that gave him the idea MMA didnt have many tanks or gasheavy units except banshees. or was it he saw he was behind economically and it was too hard to catch up? Or something else? Spam opinions plz, i want to guide to be accurate! Why the f&^% did he chose the allin? He went this all-in because he was impossibly behind in a normal game due to the econ damage he had suffered from MMA's Cloak Banshees, so he chose to exploit MMA's low Marine count (since he was also producing Marauders and Tanks) and his gamble worked due to MMA not having a Bunker + having a drop with 8 Marines in movement towards ForGG's main when ForGG arrived in his natural.
Show nested quote +On May 17 2013 20:27 Algis wrote:
I can't find when he takes his 2nd main gas in your bo. 5'45.
thx DwF! ill add info to the OP when i have time this weekend, but this evening i watch WCS!
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Seems forGG is gonna try and crush Lucifron next! This is an epic matchup. One of EU best allready established terrans against the semi EU/KR tvt-king I will update the OP after his wins and/or losses.
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Please give credit to me for coining the term ForGGeddon :D
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On May 18 2013 21:47 Grovbolle wrote:
Please give credit to me for coining the term ForGGeddon :D
Lol so how was the term ForGGeddon invented, I keep on wondering. Even the commentators have adopted it now! Although khaleris seems to think its ForGGmageddon xD
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EPT
