EPTDepends on the circumstances. Sometimes people deserve it. It's not life or death, well, only death in a thread
Improvement Ideas - Page 2
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
Depends on the circumstances. Sometimes people deserve it. It's not life or death, well, only death in a thread | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Hell, I never even said I was talking about the people who were having shit thrown directly at them. If they aren't playing we aren't worried about their skill level. This thread is about how to improve the level of play in the game, because the last two games weren't mafia masterpieces, and yet both ended flawlessly because people don't know how to play from the town side. If people are too afraid to play; so be it. We can recruit more players. This is a pretty simple situation; if you want to get better you will. The onus is on YOU to step your shit up. Given that the game is largely team oriented, you are going to get flak thrown your way if you consistently refuse to up your game. Period. You are hurting other players if you are making yourself an easy lynch target as a townie and you will get called on it. We actually have a number of players doing that without social pressure for them to change, and they're gradually getting WORSE. The social pressure that we had in earlier games was far higher than we have now, and its not surprising that the rate of improvement of players during those games was far higher. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
1. Dealing with dismissive language is a big part of the game. I have no problem with JeeJee now for example, despite all that was said during the last day of the WoW mafia game (including the lying cunt bit). Same thing with people doing it on purpose in any other mafia game - I understand what they did and think it was a good strategy after the fact. This is a good area to improve for me personally - I've generally been quite good at catching reds but often got sidetracked unnecessarily. 2. If there is one area I think there is room for improvement, it's in what happens after games - when you can help others internalize what happened and why, and motivate them to do better in the future. Most people who are obnoxious in a particular game are pretty amenable after it's over, but there is always room for improvement. If you've said something nasty to a new player... write a PM to them. It could help retention and improvement rates. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
i will say don't overestimate people especially me overestimation is probably even worse than underestimation because they don't even have to Wifom for you to think of a Wifom. | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
First, be objective/flexible. It has been psychologically be proven that after one makes his decision he or she will be more convinced of the choice one made- do not very afraid of being proven wrong, stay willing to change your opinion when necessary, and never get provoked by words of other players. I know this is such an obvious fact yet it seems to be something some players miss. Secondly, even if you are CERTAIN Player A is Mafia, when Town hold pro-town view of A and you have no conclusive evidence against him, do not focus your effort trying to lynch suspect A but your more scummier suspects unless necessary. Usually as time goes on some event will occur that will further advocate your case on player A. Trying to lynch player A prematurely may cause unnecessary Town division and you will most likely be isolated as Mafia can easily mix between other dissenting Townies. One Mafia dead is one Mafia dead, so I never found the need to be ambitious. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On April 13 2010 00:32 L wrote: If they aren't playing we aren't worried about their skill level. This thread is about how to improve the level of play in the game, because the last two games weren't mafia masterpieces, and yet both ended flawlessly because people don't know how to play from the town side. If people are too afraid to play; so be it. We can recruit more players. This is a pretty simple situation; if you want to get better you will. The onus is on YOU to step your shit up. Given that the game is largely team oriented, you are going to get flak thrown your way if you consistently refuse to up your game. Period. You are hurting other players if you are making yourself an easy lynch target as a townie and you will get called on it. We actually have a number of players doing that without social pressure for them to change, and they're gradually getting WORSE. The social pressure that we had in earlier games was far higher than we have now, and its not surprising that the rate of improvement of players during those games was far higher. If they're skilled but aren't playing because of that, it has a direct effect on the skill level of the game. Who is more likely to be skilled, Ver or ATeddyBear? (No offense to ATB, just a convenient recent example I can think of off the top of my head.) Who says that these people are afraid of getting flak thrown at them? I included myself on that list. Trust me, I'm not afraid to play because of the shitstorms. Now having to read through bullying for the sake of bullying or absolutely moronic plays involving "let's lynch BM because he's a detriment to the town even though he's most likely innocent" 1. is a really shitty play that should get you lynched immediately because you're advocating lynching innocents, and 2. is just not fun to read because you're obviously just pushing your own agenda and not trying to play the game. As far as overall skill level goes, it has increased a lot since the older games. I think you're perceiving people as getting worse because they just aren't improving as quickly as everyone else. Additionally, it was easier to get better faster back then because there was a lot bigger of a ceiling to get better within. I think your "social pressure" policy is just a drain on the mafia games. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On April 13 2010 03:11 Qatol wrote: If they're skilled but aren't playing because of that, it has a direct effect on the skill level of the game. Who is more likely to be skilled, Ver or ATeddyBear? (No offense to ATB, just a convenient recent example I can think of off the top of my head.) Who says that these people are afraid of getting flak thrown at them? I included myself on that list. Trust me, I'm not afraid to play because of the shitstorms. Now having to read through bullying for the sake of bullying or absolutely moronic plays involving "let's lynch BM because he's a detriment to the town even though he's most likely innocent" 1. is a really shitty play that should get you lynched immediately because you're advocating lynching innocents, and 2. is just not fun to read because you're obviously just pushing your own agenda and not trying to play the game. As far as overall skill level goes, it has increased a lot since the older games. I think you're perceiving people as getting worse because they just aren't improving as quickly as everyone else. Additionally, it was easier to get better faster back then because there was a lot bigger of a ceiling to get better within. I think your "social pressure" policy is just a drain on the mafia games. Give ATB a few games and we'll see how it turns out. Truth be told I'd rather have haster or flamewheel on my team than Ver because of the massive activity disparity, especially in a no pm format. As for the relative worth of you and Ver not playing? Yeah, i'd rather that both of you play hence why I've bugged you about it in the past. That said, the majority of players that we've had drop out are very bad players or players who simply don't have the time to devote, both of which substantially hurt the town. - I'm not perceiving people as getting worse because they aren't getting better as fast as everyone else. I'm looking at particular players and seeing them doing sequentially less and less in games. Mini mafia 2 is a fantastic example; a bunch of fairly decent players essentially did zero as mafia and all outed themselves asap. Micro mafia 2: exact same thing. A bunch of players essentially sat on their hands and did nothing which is by default far less than they've done in prior games. People are getting complacent and just cruise through games. Players who used to be high quality are now just cruising at the minimum required effort because their reputation shields them. - It isn't bullying to suggest that we'd kill BM, for instance, because its simply one portion of the risk/reward calculus that players need to go through when deciding who to lynch. If we're on day one and have very little in the way of alternative leads, why would we lynch someone who has a track record of being decent or productive over someone who doesn't? You're trying to import some happy go lucky moral framework onto what amounts to a purely utilitarian set of decisions. More importantly, from your Ace's portion in your summary: It's not what you know, it's what you can convince people to believe. This is really where the Mafia game is won and lost and people just don't get it. In this game you are a mafia mayor and I know this because I read it correctly. Does it matter? Not really, because now I have to convince the town that you truly are. Likewise we all know quickstriker and JeeJee are innocent but in the grand scheme of things it means shit - people believe they are guilty. Once you get people to believe certain things about other players you can start either dividing the town and standing back silently watching them devour each other as mafia, or as a townie bring them all to focus on a few people. The idea is all the same - persuasion is much more powerful than outright facts. If you can lie skillfully or find a crucial mistake to exploit while keeping a straight story people will often trust you easily. Managing perceptions is the most important facet of mafia play and a huge component as town. If you're getting killed repeatedly on day 1, that's not the fault of bullying; that's your complete failure to make yourself credible and demonstrate worth to the town. It isn't someone else's responsibility to lay off your shitty play; Its YOUR responsibility to get better. If you don't like the way town discourse is unfolding, CHANGE IT. You can't sit as a spectator and will something into effect, then get angry when it doesn't happen. Many of our better players meta-game extensively for that purpose. If you've got a better plan for setting up day 1 lynches, join games and push for them. No one's stopping you. Bottom line: If you want help, it is on YOU. People aren't going to critique your game neutrally without you asking for help because people are lazy and have other shit to do. If you want help, ask for it; We're actually nice people! | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
And offing BM whether he is innocent or not isn't a bad move depending on what alternatives the town has. Some people believe a no lynch is the correct option, some people believe the town has to lynch 1 person per day and mislynches can be fixed, others see it as BM being so bad that leaving him alive is literally adding +1 to the Mafia side. BM is much better than before so this doesn't apply to him as hard as before. However the point still stands and I actually agree with L on this: Bad players WILL cost you the game. If all your active decent players get killed off and it comes down to a bunch of players who have a history of lurking, afking out and making ridiculously bad decisions you are often better off getting rid of them through lynches or Vigilante shots if you can. It hurts because if they flip innocent that's 1 less vote the Mafia have to worry about going against them but as Town you probably weren't going to see that vote get put to good use anyway. Either way this is just my personal preference and I don't think there is a right answer to this situation because it can change depending on the game format. Either way I think most people will agree if you really want to go down the path of lynching people because they aren't that good then it's best to do this as a last resort and NOT as a regular play. L, this is where I heavily disagree with your play style. You do have a habit of just killing people for the sake of information when it actually screws over the Town in the end. So you end up being a liability as Town and pretty much unstoppable as Scum. I mean hey if that is the way you want it I don't mind, just letting you know that is the reason people argue with you so much in game ^_^. In terms of the skill level I think reading through the past Micro Mafia games hosted by Zona show a major improvement of some players. Like seriously reading those games you can actually make a case and formulate some thought as to why some people did what they did where as in the past you were just left scratching your head as to how things happened. That said I still think calling people bad and pretty much telling them "prove you are good/worth keeping around or else you will be lynched Day 1 as a last resort" is a good way to getting people to cooperate. If you want to fool around and do nonsense then don't cry when some Vigilante pops you Night 2 or you are immediately sitting on 5 votes to be lynched. As for the behavior some people display in game such as yelling and stuff at each other I still think most things people say aren't even out of line. If you can make someone get emotional and lose their heads that's cool. I'm completely fine with it however you should not break the TL.net guidelines and ALWAYS defer to the mod. If Flamewheel or Qatol mod a game and say they don't want any kind of flaming then play by their rules or ask for replacement. If you think you might say something that crosses the line then PM the mod first and see if it is ok. Where I may think something is cool they may not and as a player in the game make sure you know where to draw the line or just to be on the safe side - don't cross it. Regardless of what happens I just hope no one takes anything personal after the game is over. Once it's over wash your hands of the situation and keep it moving till the next game. Ok back to managing perception. I probably shouldn't be telling people this but I'm feeling extra nice today. All that talk about me calling myself a great player in the past, while true, was also part of me making people believe it once we enter a game. If I can successfully have someone say "Ace if your so good then help us catch scum" I'm exactly where I want to be: everyone is paying attention to me and will listen to what I have to say. This is partially why Micro Mafia 1 went down the way it did and why some people are never up for lynches. If people perceive you as being useful even when you are literally doing NOTHING you can escape the noose a bunch of times. Whether I'm town or Mafia I get center stage which some of the time is good for me. Part of this also comes from the fact that I know with some players in the game if I don't take control and force the town to do something said players will do something and screw us all. The image you throw out during games influences a lot on what you can and won't get away with. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
BM is much better than before so this doesn't apply to him as hard. thanks | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Was he the 2nd smurf in XVI maybe?!? | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On April 13 2010 05:56 citi.zen wrote: Yup, many people will ignore pretty much any proof based on this perception of "good players" - which isn't even that correct. I find someone like Zona to be a fantastic pro-town player, but he doesn't have the same mystique/following for some reason. If he played more, Ng5 would be a phenomenal mafia player as well. + Show Spoiler + Was he the 2nd smurf in XVI maybe?!? Fail guess  | ||
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d3_crescentia
United States4054 Posts
Seems that most of this discussion is focused on the player-side of things, i.e. taking responsibility for your own improvement - which I entirely agree with. The main issue I see/have experienced is that as a newer player it is difficult to play aggressively, with conviction in your decision-making. I remember in the first game I played there was huge focus on consensus-building and democratic "we should all decide together" kind of stuff - which is really not the way the game works at all. Post analysis is kind of intimidating and confusing at first, because it's hard to know what to look for. One of the things I've been careful to note in recent games is where the attention ISN'T (so long as people are active and posting). Outside of that it can be kind of difficult to follow and digest the attacks thrown back and forth in the thread if it's your first game or if your activity is restricted. A more formalized structure to games so they take on a debate-ish character might encourage more streamlined might be interesting to experiment with for a little bit, as far as hosting games goes. Here's what I think we can actually do together: 1) Host more, smaller games so people can get solid experience without committing to a huge game; Mafia is already pretty time-intensive and having a larger game can seriously complicate that. Zona's been doing an excellent job so far with Micro Mafia, and I think it's the right way to go as far as bringing more people up to speed will be. 2) Encouraging more observation/discussion. I know most players here won't bite, but I think it would be nice to have a high-level game where all of the players are shadowed by outside observers. It might also be fun to have these pairs be playing in a simultaneous or successive game with the exact same setup (if the person you're shadowing is Medic in their game, you are Medic in your own game, etc.) 3) If we get more smaller/faster games and more discussion, I think we should hold a few exercises/scenarios in seeing why doing stupid action X is bad. Examples of what not to do are sometimes better than examples of what TO do. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 13 2010 05:04 Ace wrote: In terms of the skill level I think reading through the past Micro Mafia games hosted by Zona show a major improvement of some players. Like seriously reading those games you can actually make a case and formulate some thought as to why some people did what they did where as in the past you were just left scratching your head as to how things happened. That said I still think calling people bad and pretty much telling them "prove you are good/worth keeping around or else you will be lynched Day 1 as a last resort" is a good way to getting people to cooperate. If you want to fool around and do nonsense then don't cry when some Vigilante pops you Night 2 or you are immediately sitting on 5 votes to be lynched. I like Zona's games, and they should be kept up. People just need to start making more serious of an effort to play them, since these kinds of games are the best ones to learn from. No gimmicks, very little "randomness" as compared to the larger games, and player-on-player-on-player-on... (no homo) action that allows you both to develop the conviction and rhetoric you need to be an aggressive, insightful mafia player. As for the behavior some people display in game such as yelling and stuff at each other I still think most things people say aren't even out of line. If you can make someone get emotional and lose their heads that's cool. I'm completely fine with it however you should not break the TL.net guidelines and ALWAYS defer to the mod. If Flamewheel or Qatol mod a game and say they don't want any kind of flaming then play by their rules or ask for replacement. If you think you might say something that crosses the line then PM the mod first and see if it is ok. Where I may think something is cool they may not and as a player in the game make sure you know where to draw the line or just to be on the safe side - don't cross it. Regardless of what happens I just hope no one takes anything personal after the game is over. Once it's over wash your hands of the situation and keep it moving till the next game. I personally am very tired of the flaming. I know some people use it as a strategy and some people are just naturally... abrasive, but it's excessive and people don't want to read that. With complaints of spam being as high as they are already, just don't flame. If you do transgress and become hostile, I agree with Ace here: send the Mod a PM apologizing in advance, or even better, just tell them beforehand and ask if it's okay. If ~OpZ~ doesn't mind me using him as an example, he's a good example of how one can still technically "get away" with flaming, but he keeps it cool with the mod. I can remember a few times both before and after when he has apologized to me for getting into a heated argument. Ok back to managing perception. I probably shouldn't be telling people this but I'm feeling extra nice today. All that talk about me calling myself a great player in the past, while true, was also part of me making people believe it once we enter a game. If I can successfully have someone say "Ace if your so good then help us catch scum" I'm exactly where I want to be: everyone is paying attention to me and will listen to what I have to say. This is partially why Micro Mafia 1 went down the way it did and why some people are never up for lynches. If people perceive you as being useful even when you are literally doing NOTHING you can escape the noose a bunch of times. Whether I'm town or Mafia I get center stage which some of the time is good for me. Part of this also comes from the fact that I know with some players in the game if I don't take control and force the town to do something said players will do something and screw us all. The image you throw out during games influences a lot on what you can and won't get away with. Ace catch me a mafioso please??? I will listen to your every word~ | ||
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nemY
United States3119 Posts
On April 13 2010 02:08 Caller wrote: i'm beyond hope when it comes to how bad my mafia play is i will say don't overestimate people especially me overestimation is probably even worse than underestimation because they don't even have to Wifom for you to think of a Wifom. yo tambien, and i've been playing since the first game lol | ||
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Iaaan
Canada578 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 15 2010 12:16 Iaaan wrote: As a noob who wants to improve, if I'm not lazy and I put some effort into analyzing the current game that's starting soon (which I'm not playing in), would any veteran (or whatever term you like) player who also isn't playing be willing to give me feedback on it? I'm not a vet, but I am the host If you want, I'll talk with you about it. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On April 15 2010 12:16 Iaaan wrote: As a noob who wants to improve, if I'm not lazy and I put some effort into analyzing the current game that's starting soon (which I'm not playing in), would any veteran (or whatever term you like) player who also isn't playing be willing to give me feedback on it? I really wish I had the time because this mentality is exactly what you want to be doing. I'll ask around and see if I can't get someone to help. If not, I have a little exercise which I think helped me improve at least a little during Caller's first (successful) game: One thing I would recommend doing is just trying to pick out special roles. It doesn't matter if they're red or blue. Just try to figure out who has a role (they usually play differently from earlier games, and it's usually by getting quieter). Once you do that, talk to flamewheel and see if you can explain to him WHY you think X has a role (this forces you to think logically and think through your reads). Then confirm if you are correct with flamewheel (note: this means you shouldn't know who has what role until this point). If you start to see consistent results, you can move into alignments and then specific roles. The thing I like about this exercise is that it teaches you which instincts/rationales to trust and which ones are just impulses. You should find that you can read people better than you think. After that, it's just a matter of practicing making a good argument, which sadly can't really be done without playing. But it's a lot easier to do so when you are 99% sure that someone has a role. Oh and before the game starts, read through the tips and tricks thread. That should give you a head start on things you should be looking for. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On April 15 2010 15:22 Bill Murray wrote: It would help to have longer time periods for when the games get to smaller numbers of people in order to make up for the slower pace. Pace is something you need to control on both sides of the mafia/town fence. | ||
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YellowInk
United States578 Posts
If anyone ever wants to comment on my own game play, feel free to PM/post where I'll see it. I'm always willing to accept critique. | ||
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