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United States2186 Posts
I don't think it is an unreasonable statement that if someone reads through the stickied thread, applies most of the ideas methodically, and reads past games for both history they can become a decent player in a little bit of time. It's definitely not easy to override newbie instincts but it can be done with some effort and thinking. Going beyond that level gets a lot trickier but if everyone could reach a level where they could reliably contribute positively that would be more than ideal.
Obviously that happens quite rarely. So we have to improve it somehow. It's pretty obvious with the same characters around and limited influx of new players (we should try for another batch soon) that things stagnate. Every so often we need a MBH to come in and shake things up with new ideas and approaches. And we could use games where half the struggle isn't against your own team.
Here are some possibilities:
-Post game reviews by skilled hosts/observers on individual/team performance and how to improve.
-Regular strategy discussions on various subjects (like Ace's hypothetical situation )
-PM'ing players post-game to ask for help (seriously do this)
-Newbie NON CLUE games with a few players there to teach (known players; unknown doesn't work). This might backfire though into the newbies relying on their 'instructors.'
-?
So everyone who is interested in improving, what would help you the most? And to those who haven't been interested in improving, what would get you interested?
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One thing that i think can help
is some tips specifically on playing as a blue
since many players are like "OH SHIT IM BLUE" and their posting style changes dramatically. a good example was meeple in WAW, if you read his posts you can easily see why the mafia chose to hit him as a possible blue.
so a collection of thoughts from some of us on the finer points of playing medic, dt, vigi, any of the common blue roles, might be helpful for that person who lands on a blue role for the first or second time.
I've only been blue 2-3 times so I don't have much helpful advice in that department. However when I am a medic my method is to 'think like a mafia' and ask myself "If i was red, who would i hit?" and that's who i protect. pretty sure that's standard practice though.
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I think this is really 2 problems, not just 1 as you have presented it:
1. The newer players think that all they have to do is sign up for the game and they will be immediately competitive with the other players just because they are smart. The problem is that everyone here is pretty smart and experience tends to win out because people tend to have the same basic tendencies when they first start playing (like lurking with a blue role and hoping the mafia don't find you).
So really the onus is on the new players to get themselves up to speed before they start playing games. The problem with this is it involves a few hours worth of work, which most people won't put into their game. I don't really know what the substitute is for this though. I mean, you can have an experienced player play with newer people, but that still results in players being "thrown to the wolves" when they start playing with the general forum and encourages them to read other games/ the tips thread even less because they think they can get by just by playing with an experienced player.
The only real solution that I can see is to have people read through previous games. One way to do it is to possibly set up a streamlined series of games/ posts for people to read when they first show up on the forum. Pick games that are representative of how the experience will be and tell them what they should be looking for. Then tell people that they should read those games if they are serious about playing.
2. Other players are not improving from game to game. I think this can be resolved by more extensive postgame discussion, possibly on the part of the host, but really it can be done by any experienced player who has some input to give. The problem with this idea is it devolves very quickly into a flamewar and people just stop paying attention.
Maybe have a requirement that everyone give some input on how they thought the person immediately below them on the signups list played after the game has ended? (Last person obviously comments on the first.) At the very least, then everyone gets SOME sort of feedback after the game that they can keep in mind going into the next game.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 12 2010 02:28 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
One thing that i think can help
is some tips specifically on playing as a blue
since many players are like "OH SHIT IM BLUE" and their posting style changes dramatically. a good example was meeple in WAW, if you read his posts you can easily see why the mafia chose to hit him as a possible blue.
so a collection of thoughts from some of us on the finer points of playing medic, dt, vigi, any of the common blue roles, might be helpful for that person who lands on a blue role for the first or second time.
I've only been blue 2-3 times so I don't have much helpful advice in that department. However when I am a medic my method is to 'think like a mafia' and ask myself "If i was red, who would i hit?" and that's who i protect. pretty sure that's standard practice though.
I agree with this method. While the basic thing to do is "step up, play natural and don't lurk" the finer points do need to be addressed. I remember there being a debate (can't remember in which thread and too lazy to look) over how to "claim" vigilante. Other things to take into consideration would be more general, such as DTs checking people (and in the case of no PMs), how to work to make a circle without PMs.
On April 12 2010 04:18 Qatol wrote:
I think this is really 2 problems, not just 1 as you have presented it:
1. The newer players think that all they have to do is sign up for the game and they will be immediately competitive with the other players just because they are smart. The problem is that everyone here is pretty smart and experience tends to win out because people tend to have the same basic tendencies when they first start playing (like lurking with a blue role and hoping the mafia don't find you).
So really the onus is on the new players to get themselves up to speed before they start playing games. The problem with this is it involves a few hours worth of work, which most people won't put into their game. I don't really know what the substitute is for this though. I mean, you can have an experienced player play with newer people, but that still results in players being "thrown to the wolves" when they start playing with the general forum and encourages them to read other games/ the tips thread even less because they think they can get by just by playing with an experienced player.
The only real solution that I can see is to have people read through previous games. One way to do it is to possibly set up a streamlined series of games/ posts for people to read when they first show up on the forum. Pick games that are representative of how the experience will be and tell them what they should be looking for. Then tell people that they should read those games if they are serious about playing.
I enjoy this, but you're not going to get many people who do read through previous games in an attempt to gain knowledge, since humankind is lazy >.>
While I read through XV (somebody pointed it toward me) before XVI was started, I can't assume that'd be the majority case. Still though, it'd be nice to have, say, links right at the top of the OP saying "here are some good games to read for new players..."
Incidentally, what games would those be? I haven't had the time to read through all of them yet.
On April 12 2010 04:18 Qatol wrote:
2. Other players are not improving from game to game. I think this can be resolved by more extensive postgame discussion, possibly on the part of the host, but really it can be done by any experienced player who has some input to give. The problem with this idea is it devolves very quickly into a flamewar and people just stop paying attention.
Maybe have a requirement that everyone give some input on how they thought the person immediately below them on the signups list played after the game has ended? (Last person obviously comments on the first.) At the very least, then everyone gets SOME sort of feedback after the game that they can keep in mind going into the next game.
I agree with the post analysis part of the host, and it should be theoretically easier for the host to make such feedback if there are no outside-of-the-thread communications. If PMs are banned in some future games (my next one will have no PMs for most roles) then it's easier for all people and the hosts to read, learn, and give feedback. In XX the game was played mostly in PM land, and for the townies that are just sitting outside I know that's an annoying and deterring thing that would probably prevent them for coming back for more games.
I like the thing about input, but what about the people that die early? If, say, I were to comment on L but I died the first night and L lived the whole time, there wouldn't be much I could say other than what was based in the thread. Once again though, this would be alleviated through the banning of PMs, so I'm for that. Also, would the dead be given the role lists? From modding/observing these last few games with a role list on hand, I can see bull shit going down in "real time," which helps me make my player analyses.
As for the 'noobie non-clue games', yeah the unknown wouldn't help, (or at least didn't help me through XVI >.>, but maybe that's just me...) though without PMs, it'd be more difficult to "instruct" the new guys?
And for the new guys, PM vets or mods after you die / after the game is over and discuss with them what went on. It definitely will help.
So given that most of the people [that would benefit most from this] probably won't be reading this thread, I guess link it as well for future games?
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Well the whole point of this thread is to figure out what to do for future games. I don't think it matters too much that most people who will benefit from this won't see this thread. We just need to put together a cohesive policy.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I am fully in favor of the person-above-giving-feedback-to-the-person-below policy (hereby known as... nvm). And if you die, if you would like request a role list? That way you can both discuss the game as it's ongoing with the host and give your feedback to the person below you at the end, as long as you don't talk to them while they're still in the game (code of honour).
And for those that don't/won't improve, I do think something more hardliner such as a warning stating "for those of you that don't make an earnest effort to play this game, you will be given less preference in sign-ups for future games (by the same host)" or something to that extent. It's one thing to go about at the end and try to improve people afterward, and if people are giving their 100% during the game that can only help them. Take into example BM, he went through his first few games... spamming, and in Micro-Mafia II he curbed that down a lot.
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Heads up: No one's going to do any of this without wanting to improve, and no one's going to want to improve until there's an incentive, positive or negative, to do so.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 12 2010 05:43 L wrote:
Heads up: No one's going to do any of this without wanting to improve, and no one's going to want to improve until there's an incentive, positive or negative, to do so.
Negative: lower priority when selecting for games? / Can't host games (meh?)
Postivie: warm and fuzzy feeling inside? Betterment of useful skills such as character analysis, speaking skills, etc.? Cookies?
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One thing that still keeps me from being interested in improving -- or playing, for that matter --- is the rather unfriendly atmosphere of many Mafia games here. This has vastly improved in recent games, especially once the hosts decided to enforce good posting etiquette with the threat of modkills. Still, I for one am still uncomfortable with the amount of name-calling and flaming that goes on in games, especially as they seem so unnecessary. Mafia is a game of accusations, to be sure, and I know how people can get worked up during the game. But there's no need to act rude or contemptuous toward other players, continually tell others how you're so much better than they are, or swear excessively and call people names like "moron" or "loser." None of the above contribute anything positive to the game and often cause people to lose interest in playing further. On the other hand, games where everyone tries their best and act civil towards each other are both fun to play in and to watch. So, if the latter became the norm, I'd be more interested in playing and improving.
I also like the idea of the host sharing their perspective of which players did well and which did poorly after the game is over. Not only does the host have a good view of how both sides played, but they're also a good neutral judge of the game. Hopefully, this won't end up piling more work on the host, though.
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On April 12 2010 05:43 L wrote:
Heads up: No one's going to do any of this without wanting to improve, and no one's going to want to improve until there's an incentive, positive or negative, to do so.
town MVPs get a special icon next to their name
don't you want a special icon??? all the cool kids have one!
edit: this is a terrible idea, please don't listen to me
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On April 12 2010 07:41 dreamflower wrote:
One thing that still keeps me from being interested in improving -- or playing, for that matter --- is the rather unfriendly atmosphere of many Mafia games here. This has vastly improved in recent games, especially once the hosts decided to enforce good posting etiquette with the threat of modkills. Still, I for one am still uncomfortable with the amount of name-calling and flaming that goes on in games, especially as they seem so unnecessary. Mafia is a game of accusations, to be sure, and I know how people can get worked up during the game. But there's no need to act rude or contemptuous toward other players, continually tell others how you're so much better than they are, or swear excessively and call people names like "moron" or "loser." None of the above contribute anything positive to the game and often cause people to lose interest in playing further. On the other hand, games where everyone tries their best and act civil towards each other are both fun to play in and to watch. So, if the latter became the norm, I'd be more interested in playing and improving.
I also like the idea of the host sharing their perspective of which players did well and which did poorly after the game is over. Not only does the host have a good view of how both sides played, but they're also a good neutral judge of the game. Hopefully, this won't end up piling more work on the host, though.
Social pressure has redeemed far more shitty players in our games than anything else.
Mafia is a game that is partially about reading people and partially about credibility. If you can't manage public perceptions of your own play, then an element of your game is off.
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We need a noob-only game :O
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On April 12 2010 01:59 Ver wrote:I don't think it is an unreasonable statement that if someone reads through the stickied thread, applies most of the ideas methodically, and reads past games for both history they can become a decent player in a little bit of time. It's definitely not easy to override newbie instincts but it can be done with some effort and thinking. Going beyond that level gets a lot trickier but if everyone could reach a level where they could reliably contribute positively that would be more than ideal. Obviously that happens quite rarely. So we have to improve it somehow. It's pretty obvious with the same characters around and limited influx of new players (we should try for another batch soon) that things stagnate. Every so often we need a MBH to come in and shake things up with new ideas and approaches. And we could use games where half the struggle isn't against your own team. Here are some possibilities: -Post game reviews by skilled hosts/observers on individual/team performance and how to improve. -Regular strategy discussions on various subjects (like Ace's hypothetical situation ) -PM'ing players post-game to ask for help (seriously do this) -Newbie NON CLUE games with a few players there to teach (known players; unknown doesn't work). This might backfire though into the newbies relying on their 'instructors.' -? So everyone who is interested in improving, what would help you the most? And to those who haven't been interested in improving, what would get you interested?
Post game reviews are good. If done by people not playing the game. If its made by a player in the game, then people immediately get defensive when criticized even if the critique is well-meaning or relatively objective.
Strategy discussions. May be good, but may also start massive flame wars. We all know Ace and L won't agree even on strategy.
PMing players post-game...well, it depends who you ask, again. It works better if you ask someone outside the game who doesn't have a vested interest in preserving their ego.
I feel that newbie non-clue games wouldn't work because everything would revolve around the instructors. Mafia would probably be wanting to target them (if they're not mafia) while the townies would be relying on them.
On April 12 2010 02:28 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
One thing that i think can help
is some tips specifically on playing as a blue
since many players are like "OH SHIT IM BLUE" and their posting style changes dramatically. a good example was meeple in WAW, if you read his posts you can easily see why the mafia chose to hit him as a possible blue.
so a collection of thoughts from some of us on the finer points of playing medic, dt, vigi, any of the common blue roles, might be helpful for that person who lands on a blue role for the first or second time.
I've only been blue 2-3 times so I don't have much helpful advice in that department. However when I am a medic my method is to 'think like a mafia' and ask myself "If i was red, who would i hit?" and that's who i protect. pretty sure that's standard practice though.
Yes people need tips on playing as blue. There are a lot of terrible blue plays. I guess we can post them here. General tips on playing blue:
1. Don't lurk. Just act how you normally act. Blues think that they can avoid getting killed by being quiet and not drawing attention to themselves. In fact, its completely the opposite. Mafia knows the blues like to do this, so they'll take shots at inactives sometimes to hope for a blue kill.
2. Don't leak people your role in pms unless you know for sure what you're doing. People always get owned doing this.
3. Don't hint at your role. If you're going to do this, might as well openly roleclaim. Exception: if you know what you're doing of course. But this only applies to very few people.
On April 12 2010 04:18 Qatol wrote:
I think this is really 2 problems, not just 1 as you have presented it:
1. The newer players think that all they have to do is sign up for the game and they will be immediately competitive with the other players just because they are smart. The problem is that everyone here is pretty smart and experience tends to win out because people tend to have the same basic tendencies when they first start playing (like lurking with a blue role and hoping the mafia don't find you).
So really the onus is on the new players to get themselves up to speed before they start playing games. The problem with this is it involves a few hours worth of work, which most people won't put into their game. I don't really know what the substitute is for this though. I mean, you can have an experienced player play with newer people, but that still results in players being "thrown to the wolves" when they start playing with the general forum and encourages them to read other games/ the tips thread even less because they think they can get by just by playing with an experienced player.
The only real solution that I can see is to have people read through previous games. One way to do it is to possibly set up a streamlined series of games/ posts for people to read when they first show up on the forum. Pick games that are representative of how the experience will be and tell them what they should be looking for. Then tell people that they should read those games if they are serious about playing.
2. Other players are not improving from game to game. I think this can be resolved by more extensive postgame discussion, possibly on the part of the host, but really it can be done by any experienced player who has some input to give. The problem with this idea is it devolves very quickly into a flamewar and people just stop paying attention.
Maybe have a requirement that everyone give some input on how they thought the person immediately below them on the signups list played after the game has ended? (Last person obviously comments on the first.) At the very least, then everyone gets SOME sort of feedback after the game that they can keep in mind going into the next game.
1. Yes. Really. Vets can be scary and intimidating, but most of them are willing to help. But you're not going to help anything by just sitting there and waiting for someone to notice you. You have to work to make yourself get noticed. PM them and let them know you want to get better. Talk to them about suspects and ask them about how they reach their conclusions. Keep the discussion suspect based. Remember that mafia is a game about finding the mafia, not seeing what you can do with as many blue roles as you know. Don't expect the vets to spill all their knowledge about the blue roles. They won't. But they can and will help you with tips on finding mafia. Ask them about their thought processes. After a game, go through cases or certain posts throughout the game and ask them what they thought about the posts and why.
After the game, you can be sure they will give you a straight answer  . Which brings me to the point...sometimes its good to sit out a game as a neutral observer so you can be sure that the people you are discussing the game with aren't being biased. As a player, theres always the chance that you're talking to a mafioso who has a conflict of interest in helping you get better at the game. And even if they are really a townie trying to help, you as a player may be paranoid and may doubt the sincerity of their advice. Being an observer, you will be less paranoid and can actually take their advice objectively. Personally, I think I learned the most after modding a few games and asking vet opinions on certain cases both while the game was going on, as well as after the game was over. The benefit of this (as opposed to going through an older game with a vet) is that the game is fresh in both player's minds, and the outcome is also unknown. In contrast, going through older games may result in hindsight bias.
2. already addressed above
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Overall, I'd say pick someone who you trust and whose style you like. Get to know how they think and how they do things. There is more than one good play style out there. Pick one and stick to it. You don't need to master all of them. Just pick a core group of people you trust and learn from them. Show an interest in learning and the vets will see that and will respect your interest and help you to the best of their ability. I know it worked for me.
There is no way we can really institutionalize a system of helping people improve. I know at first I was intimidated by these secret blue circles and whatnot. They're not really blue circles. They're trust circles. Show that you want to learn and don't expect or ask for who is a blue role. Keep it suspect based and you'll succeed. Mafia is a fun game, but you have to put some effort into it.
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about insider PM circles.. tbh we should really stop that. i hope the no-PMs rule gets put into every mafia game.. >.< too much of the game is missed out otherwise. plus it can unnecessarily make it much easier for one side or the other. plus if you're reading over the game some of the decisions make no friggin' sense so you cannot use them to learn either.
i dunno, i just don't like it.
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On April 12 2010 13:31 JeeJee wrote:
about insider PM circles.. tbh we should really stop that. i hope the no-PMs rule gets put into every mafia game.. >.< too much of the game is missed out otherwise. plus it can unnecessarily make it much easier for one side or the other. plus if you're reading over the game some of the decisions make no friggin' sense so you cannot use them to learn either.
i dunno, i just don't like it.
As much as there are alot of con's of pm usage, I personally love the ability to use them. It adds an entire new level of playing to the game which I am in favour of. Much as the existence of clues I find enjoyable since it adds a new level to the game.
I do understand how frustrating PM's are for some players, but you can always opt to not use them period as a player. From that point you just play like it doesn't exist. If someone does shady play (that is or isn't from pming) call them on it, and push. You catch people just as easily
When it comes down to improvement. I reallly hope that people start talking to eachother more. Take a step back and think what abilities you believe you are lacking or a play style you like and talk to someone who has similar qualities. It may take a few games to notice a change, but it does happen. Hell, hosts could even ask for specific players to sit out and just observe the game, and do a detailed writeup of each player in the game as an idea of how they played.
I believe most of everything else has been said already :p
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On April 12 2010 05:40 flamewheel91 wrote:
And if you die, if you would like request a role list? That way you can both discuss the game as it's ongoing with the host and give your feedback to the person below you at the end, as long as you don't talk to them while they're still in the game (code of honour).
Maybe it's just me being jaded from bad experiences in the past, but I don't want everyone not in the game having the role list. There is WAY too much potential for a game-ruining leak that way.
On April 12 2010 09:55 L wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2010 07:41 dreamflower wrote:
One thing that still keeps me from being interested in improving -- or playing, for that matter --- is the rather unfriendly atmosphere of many Mafia games here. This has vastly improved in recent games, especially once the hosts decided to enforce good posting etiquette with the threat of modkills. Still, I for one am still uncomfortable with the amount of name-calling and flaming that goes on in games, especially as they seem so unnecessary. Mafia is a game of accusations, to be sure, and I know how people can get worked up during the game. But there's no need to act rude or contemptuous toward other players, continually tell others how you're so much better than they are, or swear excessively and call people names like "moron" or "loser." None of the above contribute anything positive to the game and often cause people to lose interest in playing further. On the other hand, games where everyone tries their best and act civil towards each other are both fun to play in and to watch. So, if the latter became the norm, I'd be more interested in playing and improving.
I also like the idea of the host sharing their perspective of which players did well and which did poorly after the game is over. Not only does the host have a good view of how both sides played, but they're also a good neutral judge of the game. Hopefully, this won't end up piling more work on the host, though. Social pressure has redeemed far more shitty players in our games than anything else. Mafia is a game that is partially about reading people and partially about credibility. If you can't manage public perceptions of your own play, then an element of your game is off.
Social pressure has also caused more people to drop out of/ not participate in/ play poorly in (because they get worked up) these games than any other factor.
On April 12 2010 12:29 Incognito wrote:
Post game reviews are good. If done by people not playing the game. If its made by a player in the game, then people immediately get defensive when criticized even if the critique is well-meaning or relatively objective.
Who exactly is going to do this? It seems like a ton of work, and most of the players people want commenting on their play are either playing or are too busy to be playing (and thus probably too busy to be going through the thread and commenting on everyone's play). Similarly, it is a ridiculous amount of extra work for the host who already has a thankless job. That was why I suggested the player-above-you thing. While people might think it is partisan or whatever, at least it is more likely to happen.
On April 12 2010 12:29 Incognito wrote:1. Yes. Really. Vets can be scary and intimidating, but most of them are willing to help. But you're not going to help anything by just sitting there and waiting for someone to notice you. You have to work to make yourself get noticed. PM them and let them know you want to get better. Talk to them about suspects and ask them about how they reach their conclusions. Keep the discussion suspect based. Remember that mafia is a game about finding the mafia, not seeing what you can do with as many blue roles as you know. Don't expect the vets to spill all their knowledge about the blue roles. They won't. But they can and will help you with tips on finding mafia. Ask them about their thought processes. After a game, go through cases or certain posts throughout the game and ask them what they thought about the posts and why. After the game, you can be sure they will give you a straight answer . Which brings me to the point...sometimes its good to sit out a game as a neutral observer so you can be sure that the people you are discussing the game with aren't being biased. As a player, theres always the chance that you're talking to a mafioso who has a conflict of interest in helping you get better at the game. And even if they are really a townie trying to help, you as a player may be paranoid and may doubt the sincerity of their advice. Being an observer, you will be less paranoid and can actually take their advice objectively. Personally, I think I learned the most after modding a few games and asking vet opinions on certain cases both while the game was going on, as well as after the game was over. The benefit of this (as opposed to going through an older game with a vet) is that the game is fresh in both player's minds, and the outcome is also unknown. In contrast, going through older games may result in hindsight bias. Overall, I'd say pick someone who you trust and whose style you like. Get to know how they think and how they do things. There is more than one good play style out there. Pick one and stick to it. You don't need to master all of them. Just pick a core group of people you trust and learn from them. Show an interest in learning and the vets will see that and will respect your interest and help you to the best of their ability. I know it worked for me.
This is basically true. As someone who basically learned to play by PMing other people both inside of and outside of games, I can say that it definitely helped me a ton. Most players really won't bite outside of the game, no matter how much they yell at you in game. Ace is actually a pretty nice guy as long as you aren't playing in a game with him and roleclaim a blue role day 1 for no reason. 
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Social pressure has also caused more people to drop out of/ not participate in/ play poorly in (because they get worked up) these games than any other factor. The people who drop out aren't really that interested in getting better, nor are the players who get worked up interested in getting better; they admit as much when they fly off the handle. If we need new people its as simple as advertising this forum to the outside population and getting them access to the forum.
I think you're under the impression that the people who consistently get the shit stick thrown at them are new players. You'd be wrong except in extreme cases (ie. Bill Murray literally throwing down 6 posts in a row repeatedly). The people who take the majority of the evil eye stare are players like vivi who have been here for a long time and should know better, or people like abenson who consistently do nothing and stay afk in the majority of their games.
The counter example is haster and flamewheel. Both popped up, played very well. No one reacted poorly to them in the least. KF91 returned after months of inactivity, played an unremarkable, but not terrible game. No one threw any shit his way. Why? Because he didn't go out of his way to fuck his team over.
New players don't get hateraid thrown at them. Consistently bad players who churn out anti-town bullshit in games one after the other do. Players who attempt to reform themselves lose their cloak of stigma after 1-2 games. Players who don't are put up for lynch day 1 repeatedly.
That was why I suggested the player-above-you thing. While people might think it is partisan or whatever, at least it is more likely to happen. It will not happen. The majority of players aren't at the level where they can provide detailed criticism and its been asked for by me before during games with literally zero takers.
If players want to get better, find a player that you think does well and ask basic question.
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On April 12 2010 14:57 L wrote:Show nested quote +Social pressure has also caused more people to drop out of/ not participate in/ play poorly in (because they get worked up) these games than any other factor. The people who drop out aren't really that interested in getting better, nor are the players who get worked up interested in getting better; they admit as much when they fly off the handle. If we need new people its as simple as advertising this forum to the outside population and getting them access to the forum. I think you're under the impression that the people who consistently get the shit stick thrown at them are new players. You'd be wrong except in extreme cases (ie. Bill Murray literally throwing down 6 posts in a row repeatedly). The people who take the majority of the evil eye stare are players like vivi who have been here for a long time and should know better, or people like abenson who consistently do nothing and stay afk in the majority of their games. The counter example is haster and flamewheel. Both popped up, played very well. No one reacted poorly to them in the least. KF91 returned after months of inactivity, played an unremarkable, but not terrible game. No one threw any shit his way. Why? Because he didn't go out of his way to fuck his team over. New players don't get hateraid thrown at them. Consistently bad players who churn out anti-town bullshit in games one after the other do. Players who attempt to reform themselves lose their cloak of stigma after 1-2 games. Players who don't are put up for lynch day 1 repeatedly.
Actually, I'm assuming nothing. I never said I was referring to newer players. Hell, I never even said I was talking about the people who were having shit thrown directly at them. Do you think it is much fun for everyone else to watch you pick on vivi every game? I know for a fact that people like Midori, dreamflower, LTT, Ver, and myself (who were trying to improve) have sat out games at some point because of the in-game atmosphere. I've also had other people come to me and say that they are absolutely disgusted at the way some people choose to play.
But if you want to talk about decent players who definitely didn't deserve the crap sent at them because they WERE improving, chezinu, malongo, foolishness, and 0cz3c come to mind. How many of them have played consistently in recent games? I know some of that is probably due to other factors, but I'll bet the egos/flames had at least some part in their decision not to play.
I seriously think that attitude is one that these games can do without.
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I agree with L even in relation to my ill-advised post style, but I also agree with Qatol here. What you two are arguing doesn't necessarily mean that the other option doesn't exist... L is correct in that if someone who is awful (i'm a great example) wants to keep working at it, it's completely up to them if they want to actually do it or not and focus on the task at hand. Qatol is correct in that it CAN take away someone's overall will to play as it may reduce the fun factor for 'veteran' players... it has also taken away the fun from me playing, as i've been on the wrong end of L's wraith. Qatol u appear to be listing people who I would consider veterans, but you may not consider them to be, who are against playing as a result of being flamed; however, that doesn't mean that we can't play mafia. L is correct in us being able to find new blood through the external part of these forums... I would definitely love to get in on a game with a lot of people who are more newbie than I am.
that's how you all got me 
that's also how you all got citi.zen
it's hit or miss
This being said, I actually feel that the proverbial "shit stick" is a positive influence
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I'm not saying there should be no criticizing, just that there should be no bullying. There is a definite line between the two and I think we cross that line far too often.
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EPT
