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It's true that some of this discussion may sound terrible and inflammatory, but really the outcome can be good.
Either this issue will completely die out and be disregarded and some fans stop watching while most continue tuning in, or evidence one way or the other will be found or provided by someone and the truth is revealed for better or worse.
Should no one have investigated the illegal Brood War match-fixing suspicions because it might defame famous players and jeopardize the entire business? While some players' reputations were unjustly tarnished during the investigations, violations on others were found and sentenced. The truth was found and the sport lives on for its viewers.
Honesty of players and organizers is very important.
The idea that someone may be manually creating the brackets to give advantages to star players is a hideous one to me in what should be presented as a fair and unseeded bracket to determine who is the best of the best in random fashion for future seasons.
Imagine being a rising star Terran player. You have excellent TvT and TvP, but your TvZ is rubbish. It's your first time in the GSL, and you find yourself against Fruitdealer in round one, who is very good against Terran.
What dreadful luck! Your worst match-up against a champion Zerg! And you predictably lose.
Now imagine that it wasn't random chance that you battled Fruitdealer, but someone in an office intentionally put you against Fruitdealer in the first round because that would give him a better chance at winning and thus drawing in more viewers for the next round.
How would you feel about that? Is that fair?
Next season is the start of seeding based on GSL points, so this should not be an issue then, but if players are currently being boosted by artificial brackets, then the entire point rank would be tainted already. It's a tough and scaly issue for sure.
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On December 01 2010 00:47 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote:
Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64.
The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT.
Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
And now we take a look at the WC 2010 South Africa seeding.
South Africa - the host nation - gets a better seed disregarding their past performance.
Is the FIFA rigging the brackets?
About the "map rigging".
Let's look at ZvT. Total amount of maps? 9. Total amount of "unfair" maps? 4 (Steppes, Delta, LT, Jungle).
Mathstuff:
+ Show Spoiler +
(x y) means (x over y):
There is a total number of mapcombinations: (9 3) = 84
#possibilities of getting 3 "bad" maps - (4 3) * (5 0) = 4 * 1
#possibilities of getting 2 "bad" maps - (4 2) *(5 1) = 6 * 5
#possibilities of getting 1 "bad" map - (4 1) * (5 2) = 4 * 10
#possibilities of getting 0 "bad" maps - (4 0) * (5 3) = 1 * 10
Chances:
3 bad maps: 4/84
2 bad maps: 30/84
1 bad map: 40/84
0 bad maps: 10/84
Now for the GSL3
It's Zergname - Terranname - number of bad maps for zerg
RO64:
Nestea - Syj - 1
jookToJung - LittleBoy - 0
Sleep - Maka - 2
DreamizEr - Rain 1
NewDawn - Rainbow - 1
Haypro - BitByBit - 0
Kyrix - JSL - 2
NEXLine - Foxer - 2
Leenock - Clide - 2
ST_Max - Hyperdub - 1
Zenio - alive - 2
NsP.Joon - Polt - 1
Drug - Jinro - 2
Moon - ButterflyEffect - 1
Check - NEXDestinatino - 2
RO32:
NewDawn - BitByBit - 1
Fruitdealer - sCfOu - 2
Ret - TheBestfOu - 2
Monster - Foxer - 3
July - aLivefOu - 2
That's a total of 20 matches.
3 bad maps: 1
2 bad maps: 10
1 bad map: 7
0 bad maps: 2
Now let's compare the "perfect" distribution vs "real" distribution:
3 bad maps: 4.8% vs 5%
2 bad maps: 35.7% vs 50%
1 bad map: 47.6% vs 35%
0 bad maps: 11.9% vs 10%
Sorry - this doesnt looks rigged towards certain players for me.
Sure they could rig every map selection so it evens out at the end - but _really_?
It looks so bad for Z in ZvT, because people consider ~50% (44%) of the available maps bad. Not because of the mapselection.
About Boxer (ignoring the fact that they seed the Top4 in different brackets):
Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL2: 23/63 = 36%
Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL3: 27/63 = 43%
Getting TvT in both RO64: 15%
It's not really that unlikely.
But an interesting fact (edit):
They said they put the Top4 in different brackets. That changed from GSL2 to GSL3.
Top4 in GSL1 was Rainbow, Cool, Ensare, NEXLiveForever
But in GSL2 Ensnare & Cool where in the same bracket - they could meet in RO8.
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nicely proven point you made there OP
so maybe add a poll to see who thinks it's unfair vs who think its good for short-term sc2 popularity?
(i think i agree more with the later)
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On December 01 2010 05:22 dolpiff wrote:
nicely proven point you made there OP
so maybe add a poll to see who thinks it's unfair vs who think its good for short-term sc2 popularity?
(i think i agree more with the later)
I'm still not entirely sure that there is fixing to begin with. With a lot of Terrans, you will see TvTs. With a large percentage of un-zerg-friendly maps, you will see biased maps.
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On December 01 2010 05:26 teh_longinator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 05:22 dolpiff wrote:
nicely proven point you made there OP
so maybe add a poll to see who thinks it's unfair vs who think its good for short-term sc2 popularity?
(i think i agree more with the later) I'm still not entirely sure that there is fixing to begin with. With a lot of Terrans, you will see TvTs. With a large percentage of un-zerg-friendly maps, you will see biased maps.
By their own admission we already know they handpick the brackets to some degree.
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Once GomTV stopped allowing the players to choose their own maps, it became obvious that Gom doesn't really care about competitive gaming - they're interested in ratings. I'm sure they might try to appeal to the competitive gaming scene in order to accomplish their ultimate goal, but make no mistake, they're still a business, money is what they're after.
This only reaffirms that.
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On December 01 2010 05:33 JTWStephens wrote:
Once GomTV stopped allowing the players to choose their own maps, it became obvious that Gom doesn't really care about competitive gaming - they're interested in ratings. I'm sure they might try to appeal to the competitive gaming scene in order to accomplish their ultimate goal, but make no mistake, they're still a business, money is what they're after.
This only reaffirms that.
I thought it was obvious the artificial marketing they were doing when in the first GSL they had tasteless zooming in on buildings to show off sc2 lighting and graphics.
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On December 01 2010 05:22 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 00:47 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote:
Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64.
The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT.
Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers. And now we take a look at the WC 2010 South Africa seeding. South Africa - the host nation - gets a better seed disregarding their past performance. Is the FIFA rigging the brackets? About the "map rigging". Let's look at ZvT. Total amount of maps? 9. Total amount of "unfair" maps? 4 (Steppes, Delta, LT, Jungle). Mathstuff: + Show Spoiler +
(x y) means (x over y):
There is a total number of mapcombinations: (9 3) = 84
#possibilities of getting 3 "bad" maps - (4 3) * (5 0) = 4 * 1
#possibilities of getting 2 "bad" maps - (4 2) *(5 1) = 6 * 5
#possibilities of getting 1 "bad" map - (4 1) * (5 2) = 4 * 10
#possibilities of getting 0 "bad" maps - (4 0) * (5 3) = 1 * 10
Chances:
3 bad maps: 4/84
2 bad maps: 30/84
1 bad map: 40/84
0 bad maps: 10/84
Now for the GSL3
It's Zergname - Terranname - number of bad maps for zerg
RO64:
Nestea - Syj - 1
jookToJung - LittleBoy - 0
Sleep - Maka - 2
DreamizEr - Rain 1
NewDawn - Rainbow - 1
Haypro - BitByBit - 0
Kyrix - JSL - 2
NEXLine - Foxer - 2
Leenock - Clide - 2
ST_Max - Hyperdub - 1
Zenio - alive - 2
NsP.Joon - Polt - 1
Drug - Jinro - 2
Moon - ButterflyEffect - 1
Check - NEXDestinatino - 2
RO32:
NewDawn - BitByBit - 1
Fruitdealer - sCfOu - 2
Ret - TheBestfOu - 2
Monster - Foxer - 3
July - aLivefOu - 2
That's a total of 20 matches.
3 bad maps: 1
2 bad maps: 10
1 bad map: 7
0 bad maps: 2
Now let's compare the "perfect" distribution vs "real" distribution: 3 bad maps: 4.8% vs 5% 2 bad maps: 35.7% vs 50% 1 bad map: 47.6% vs 35% 0 bad maps: 11.9% vs 10% Sorry - this doesnt looks rigged towards certain players for me. Sure they could rig every map selection so it evens out at the end - but _really_? It looks so bad for Z in ZvT, because people consider ~50% (44%) of the available maps bad. Not because of the mapselection. About Boxer (ignoring the fact that they seed the Top4 in different brackets): Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL2: 23/63 = 36% Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL3: 27/63 = 43% Getting TvT in both RO64: 15% It's not really that unlikely. But an interesting fact (edit): They said they put the Top4 in different brackets. That changed from GSL2 to GSL3. Top4 in GSL1 was Rainbow, Cool, Ensare, NEXLiveForever But in GSL2 Ensnare & Cool where in the same bracket - they could meet in RO8.
There we go! Somebody who actually did the effort and has some numbers to back him up. Nice job Zocat. The numbers are actually kind of interesting outside of this discussion as well.
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the question is whether its better for esports in korea, that ex-bw progamers would just crush the scene or that bw-progamers just get crushed hard.
first scenario might encourage bw-nerds to call sc2 way too easy of a game.
second scenario obviously they run danger that pros might accuse balance issues or just dont see a chance to make profit.
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Guess what... the NCAA baketball tournaments are also setup in such a fashion. So if it takes place in sports then why not esports? If it makes the tournament more fun then who cares as long as it's not ridiculous.
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OK, let's assume the OP is telling the truth. GOM did fix it so Boxer got lots of TvTs.
Here's who was in on it in GSL2:
Had to be in on it:
Terious: To guarantee a Terran from his part of the bracket, one has to make it through. Loner vs Bleach had already played, and there was a 50/50 shot of a Terran making it through.
Terious had to be in on it to let through PoltPrime in case Loner didn't make it.
He then lets through Loner in the next round so Boxer has a TvT in RO16.
Chief: Had to be in on it because he's the only thing standing in the way of a Terran from the bottom half of the bracket to the RO16.
Leenock: Had to be in on it to let through a Terran in the RO16 so Boxer faces one in RO8.
Might have been in on it:
Happiness: He let Boxer through the first round.
Almost certainly weren't in on it:
CoreJJang: He beat his Terran opponent, setting up Boxer for a TvP in RO32 instead of the potential TvT. Maybe this was done to make it less suspicious, since he then lost to Boxer, so he could have been in on it, but not entirely likely.
Conclusion: OP is utterly stupid and how did this thread make it to 17 pages when it started off with the most idiotic proposition ever?
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On December 01 2010 05:48 jhokie wrote:
Guess what... the NCAA baketball tournaments are also setup in such a fashion. So if it takes place in sports then why not esports? If it makes the tournament more fun then who cares as long as it's not ridiculous.
It is ridiculous.
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On December 01 2010 05:34 MementoMori wrote:
There we go! Somebody who actually did the effort and has some numbers to back him up. Nice job Zocat. The numbers are actually kind of interesting outside of this discussion as well.
Thanks 
And since I am bored (and sick QQ):
I assigned a strength value to each player.
Not qualified: 0
RO64 appearance: 1
RO32 appearance: 2
RO16 appearance: 4
RO08 appearance: 8
RO04 appearance: 16
I believe anyone in Top4 could take the tournament - therefore I dont think I should give finalists / winner more strength (you could discuss this decision)
So someone like Rainbow would have for GSL3:
GSL1 RO02 + GSL2 RO04 = 16 + 16 = 32
Boxer would have:
GSL 1 NQ + GSL2 RO04 = 0 + 16 = 16
Playertable (layout broken and I'm not going to fix it^^)
+ Show Spoiler +
name GSL1 GSL2 total
Players in GSL3 from GSL2:
Fruitdealer 16 2 18
ButterFlyEffect 0 1 1
MarineKing 0 16 16
Baby 0 1 1
Apple 0 1 1
Phoenix 0 2 2
TLO 2 1 3
SangHo 0 4 4
choya 0 1 1
Rain(T) 0 2 2
Ensnare 16 4 20
Suzy 0 1 1
Ace 0 2 2
KYumer 0 1 1
HongUn 8 1 9
Kyrix 0 8 8
Rainbow 16 16 32
Flint 0 1 1
Pippi 0 2 2
Cezanne 1 1 2
Hyperdub 4 1 5
san 4 2 6
Garnet 0 1 1
Check 4 4 8
InCa 8 4 12
Aya 0 1 1
Tankboy 2 2 4
Clide 4 1 5
Genius 1 8 9
rain(Z) 0 1 1
Sync 0 2 2
jookToJung 2 1 3
SlayersBoxer 0 16 16
Happiness 0 1 1
Core(JJang) 0 2 2
Bless(Lyn) 0 1 1
Bleach 2 1 3
Loner 0 4 4
Terious 0 2 2
Polt 2 1 3
LegalMind 4 1 5
Leenock 0 4 4
Suhoshin 0 2 2
FreeDSL 0 1 1
Cargo 0 1 1
Nada 0 8 8
ParkJongHyuk 0 2 2
Chief 0 1 1
Idra 2 4 6
Chickencombo 0 1 1
RexzanDarke 2 1 3
Gon 0 2 2
Sound 0 1 1
mvp 0 2 2
Jjakji 0 1 1
Zenio 2 8 10
Nestea 1 16 17
KangJiYoung 0 1 1
Overthezero 0 1 1
MC 1 2 3
LoveRip 0 1 1
TheWind 2 4 6
Maka 8 2 10
Banbanssu 0 1 1
Players in GSL3 & GSL1 (not GSL2):
anypro 4 0 4
JSL 1 0 1
Junwi 1 0 1
Everyone else has 0 strength. (Remark: I dont know if cOre is the same person as CoreJJang - I treated them as the same person)
This leads to the following bracket strengths:
For GSL2:
Bracket A: 42
Bracket B: 46
Bracket C: 8
Bracket D: 18
For GSL3:
using only GSL2 strength:
Bracket A: 33
Bracket B: 28
Bracket C: 34
Bracket D: 30
using total strength:
Bracket A: 47
Bracket B: 64
Bracket C: 46
Bracket D: 38
Take those numbers for what you want
Boxer bracket was C in GSL 2 and is D in GSL3.
Bracket D also looks interesting in GSL2. Maybe because of IdrA (only fan favourite I can see there)?
Also keep in mind some players who placed very high in GSL1 (sSKS, TOP, LiveForever) didnt play in GSL2. If you place LiveForever & TOP in C and sSKS in D it looks pretty even suddenly.
Only 3 16point amd 3 8point persons were in GSL2. So we're missing ~24points for 2 slots.
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It's obvious that gom is protecting protoss players by not letting them play vs boxer because they would just lose.
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It's rigged I'm pretty sure Boxer was suppose to vs Check in the Ro32 and Jinro vs Poltprime
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To argue that intentionally preparing the brackets of an unseeded preliminary tournament for prize money by saying that many other professional tournaments do it for entertainment value is a poor excuse for the practice. Everyone else does it, so it must be acceptable everywhere?
You have to remember that these first three GSLs are not just entertainment. They are both the professional lives for the players and teams as well as a business for the event organizers. While it may seem advantageous for organizers to guarantee star players advance and rake in more viewers and support and prizes for those players, these games are also being played for ranking points for future seasons.
The place players finish could make or break their future GSL appearances, and if any player, even in the first round, is manually set up with a favorable match instead of given a random opponent, even if it means knocking out another star, then the results are skewed by the organizers to ensure their star players persist and continue to pull in more viewers and profit at the expense of sacrificial players.
To say that such artificial arrangement is beneficial to the sport because it benefits the event organizers so they have more viewers and in turn more money and advertising to continue, really damages the image of the sport as legitimate competition, at least to me.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
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Junkka said on his Twitter that the brackets are made up by him and 5 other people so it's blatantly obvious that they wanted Boxer to start off RO64 with a TvT (and they probably planned for a Boxer v Moon RO16 too).
Again I think it's fine, as long as they don't also pick the maps to favour certain players (while publicly claim that maps are random).
GOM is trading their league's long term credibility and prestige for short term popularity. GOM is playing a very dangerous game and I hope they know what they are doing, cos Korean fans are not very forgiving when it comes to this kind of things.
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On December 01 2010 06:53 mrdx wrote:
Junkka said on his Twitter that the brackets are made up by him and 5 other people so it's blatantly obvious that they wanted Boxer to start off RO64 with a TvT (and they probably planned for a Boxer v Moon RO16 too).
Again I think it's fine, as long as they don't also pick the maps to favour certain players (while publicly claim that maps are random).
GOM is trading their league's long term credibility and prestige for short term popularity. GOM is playing a very dangerous game and I hope they know what they are doing, cos Korean fans are not very forgiving when it comes to this kind of things.
This is assuming they are truly fixing... which is for now... the only think people are doing. Even if He has had a lot of TvTs, the Ts he played against were against another race so technically it couldve been a zerg or protoss
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On December 01 2010 05:22 Zocat wrote:
About Boxer
Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL2: 23/63 = 36%
Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL3: 27/63 = 43%
Getting TvT in both RO64: 15%
It's not really that unlikely.
You are looking at it wrong
You need to calculate just how many TvT's there actually were
GSL SEASON 2 RO64:
There were 24 T match ups, only 4 were TvT. Boxer gets 1.
GSL SEASON 3 RO64:
There were 22 T match ups, only 2 were TvT. Guess what, Boxer gets it!
This goes on and on. There's only a few TvT's, and Boxer always manages to get it
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EPT
