EPTIf BW Units fought SC2 Units.... - Page 13
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Hikko
United States1126 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 14 2011 14:57 L_Master wrote: Early game T (SC2) v Z (BW) would be pretty interesting cause of something no one has mentioned. Mauraders vs Lurker. Before swarm is out, marauders rape lurkers just like the BW dragoon does, though perhaps the clumping would reduce the effectiveness slightly. That said maurader, like the dragoon, would be pure shit against lings. Would be fun to see MMM ball versus lurker+ling before defiler is out. Another interesting thing is that depending on dropship timing early SC2 terran bust vs zerg might be more dangerous if medivac arrived before spire as MM could be elevatored into the main in an attempt to ignore the sunken or two zerg usually gets pre muta. 4 gate would be pathetic vs BW protoss. A dt fast expand would force protoss to do some 2 or 3 gate robo every game, at which point we would probably see goon/reaver vs stalker/immortal or stalker/colossi. I'm not sure what kind of DT fast expand you've been watchin in BW but good 4gate rushes hit at like...30-ish supply. Templar archives won't even be halfway done by then -.- | ||
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zawk9
United States427 Posts
Though Wraiths are overall a much more flexible unit compared to Banshees, they have a much more inferior air to ground attack. Though both units cost the same and have the same build time, it takes the lasers of 3 Wraiths to equal the damage output of a single volley of Banshee missiles, thus making Wraiths inferior harassment aircraft despite their AA attack, greater speed, and ability to cloak. However, their AA attack do make them quite useful against a multitude of air units, though this overlaps the Wraith's role with that of the slightly cheaper Viking. Wraiths also properly stack and have moving shot... Both of which are massive advantages for a harassment unit. | ||
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Levistus
1134 Posts
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Spicy Pepper
United States632 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:18 zawk9 wrote: Wraiths also properly stack and have moving shot... Both of which are massive advantages for a harassment unit. However, the Wraith's air-to-ground laser is pitifully weak, so having to build multiple Wraiths to achieve an effective stack means sinking more resources to get the same damage output as the Banshee. It's much quicker and cheaper to get out a single Banshee for harassment compared to building up a stack of Wraiths. | ||
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Spicy Pepper
United States632 Posts
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canucks12
Canada812 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:21 Levistus wrote: I wonder if Marauders will be tough against reavers? Also BW ghost+nuke vs zerg, zerg will need a lot of overseers. Reavers deal 100 base damage per scarab. They also have an upgrade that ups that damage to 125. Since Marauders have 100 health and 1 armor, they might survive a single shot from an unupgraded Reaver, but with only 1 health left. With the Scarab damage upgrade, Reavers would 1-shot Marauders, thus completely nullifying Terran bio. Plus, Reavers are almost always accompanied by Shuttles that can just pick up the Reaver if the Terran attempts to bum-rush the Reaver with Marauders. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
For Protoss and terran, it really depends what units vs what with which upgrades, and another major factor- How the damage and armor types translate, especially with regards to the medium sized units in SC1. I'd say stalkers would beat out dragoons with blink and forcefield. Stalkers also have the base 6 range without an upgrade required too which helps a lot if the goons aren't upgraded too (more of a real game scenario though). Reavers help SC1 a bit, but blink plus the superior range of colossus would kinda destroy it. Reavers would help a lot in a real game, but from what I understood from the OP, we aren't talking about a real game, but just the units. Dark archons could actually be kinda viable vs colossus, since you'd be paying 250/200 for a 600/400 army size swing (plus getting free upgrade if you go by SC1 rules). SC2 Terran would dominate SC1 terran probably but it's hard to say. Spider mines and marauders are both good, but you can pressure with marauders before mines are readily available. Siege tanks cost a bit more, but they are a ton better with the instant attack, extra range,and extra unsieged DPS. While wraiths are nice cloaked anti-air, they don't do nearly as much damage as a banshee does vs the ground which is what's more important. Considering banshees are light, that means SC1 missile turrets (AND GOLIATHS) are pretty damn dinky vs them too making it even easier for SC2. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On April 14 2011 13:29 Hierarch wrote: Hellions melt all early lings and hydras due to both being light, what would a sc1 zerg do about a blue flame marauder timing? A 3rd hatch takes longer to build than 2 queens and the queens provide 5 more larva as long as you hit your injects. There's also cloaked banshee possibilities which can just win the game if zerg has no spore colonies. I'm not saying itd be a walkover, but I feel hellions with blue flame would be really hard to deal with for zerg. Thor > stacked mutas Wait, what? Hydras are MEDIUM, not Light. Cloaked banshee? EVERY overlord detects, and Hydras come tier 1, and are better AND cheaper! Spawn Broodlings from Queens > Thors. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:25 Spicy Pepper wrote: If I knew nothing about both games, I'd guess the guy who gets 6 workers to start would win. We're assuming that the two races have equal mining capabilities. BW, yes you only have 4 workers, but you also mine 8 minerals per trip and 8 gas per trip. | ||
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Ezekyle
Australia607 Posts
On April 14 2011 13:48 LuckyMacro wrote: As someone said before. All you need from BW is... Lurker+defiler+scourge. kekekekekekeke It's not as invincible as you (and some other posters, I picked your post since it's the most recent) would think. Lurker+defiler+scourge vs... SC2 Terran: Ghosts. Why ghosts? EMP is kinda lame against consume, admittedly it reveals but so do scans. Cloak doesn't work against detector overlords. And nukes are a joke. Ghosts don't have anything else, do they? Oh wait, they do. That one ability that never sees the light of day, because it has no place in SC2 other than gimmicks. Snipes. Just like irradiate, sniper round works under dark swarm because it's a spell, not an attack. It takes two sniper rounds to kill a defiler, and they have range 10. A ghost can kill a defiler the moment it finishes building, or 1.5 if it has the energy upgrade, and sniper round is range 10. They're actually better than vessels at picking off defilers, and with the energy upgrade a ghost can snipe off a lurker the instant it pops out of the barracks. They've got 100 HP, which lets them survive the first couple of lurker hits even if they do somehow end up in range of the spines, and obviously scourges won't do anything to them. SC2 Protoss: Phoenixes. Liquipedia doesn't have the speed stats for BW units, but unless my internet detectoring failed me, they have 3.75 speed. Phoenixes are 4.25. They can kite scourges indefinitely and kill them off in a single attack (assuming scourges are light, which they would be). Once that's done there's nothing left to protect the defilers and lurkers. Unless you can constantly keep your entire army covered in dark swarms, you're going to get lifted and killed. Even if you do keep infinity defilers cowering under permanent swarms in the middle of the map, the phoenixes can kill every drone you make, and with the scourges gone void rays can clean up your base. SC2 Zerg: Infestors. Neural parasite has 50% more range than lurkers. As long as you can detect them (spore crawler migration would be the best option, since detection range > lurker attack range) you can simply yoink and suicide all the lurkers, then roll in with lings. And if you ever get within 9 range of a defiler, you can steal and kill it too. Alternatively you might simply be able to roll in with SO MANY BANELINGS and let their death explosions kill everything, but unless you can get a really good flank in the lurkers will massacre them. My matchup predictons: I'm going to assume that the SC2 and BW races are roughly equal macro-wise. MULEs, chronoboosts, larva injects and starting with 6 workers give SC2 a huge advantage, but likewise getting 8 resources per trip and only needing to mine from one geyser give BW an edge. I'm pretty sure SC2 would dominate economically, but I'm just going to ignore all the macro-related stuff because comparing resource collection rates isn't nearly as fun as arguing over who would kill who. SC2 Terran vs... BW Terran: Unsure, but leaning towards SC2 Terran. Bio vs. bio the better stim and firebats of BW would win pretty easily, but MMM with blue flame racecar support would murder the 40HP marines, so I'm pretty sure BW wants to go mech. Marauders would be medium, and thus would take less damage from BW tanks than they do from SC2 tanks, so in theory you could just stim in and crush siege lines. Marine+tank is of course the SC2 counter to that, but with 40HP marines and tanks doing around 33% less damage I'm not sure it's actually going to work. However, spider mines ruin everything, so unless you can remove them bum rushing tank lines just won't work. Ultimately SC2 bio vs. BW mech revolves around those spider mines, so I don't really know who would win it. Mech vs. mech seems to favour BW, since their tanks are cheaper, take up less supply and do more damage, but on the other hand SC2 tanks have more range and are supported by vikings, which allows them to abuse that sight. SC2 should win tank wars simply because they can slowly push up and abuse their extended range - BW tanks are better, but having to siege up while taking tank fire is really really bad. Add in a couple of ravens for PDD and there just isn't much BW Terran can do - bio vs. tanks is a joke, ghosts for lockdown are detected by ravens and killed, vultures are lolwat, goliaths can't shoot anything because of PDD and die to tanks, and BW air loses to viking + PDD. BW Protoss: Protoss wins. BW mech is on even footing with BW Protoss, but SC2 mech is weaker, so it won't cut it here. Bio vs. BW Protoss is laughable. On the other hand, thors are rather vicious against Protoss in both games, especially without immortals or mass collosus to pewpewpew them down in seconds. Still, I don't think thors alone are enough to take on BW Protoss, and so unless something weird like banshee+PDD works really well SC2 is going to lose badly in this matchup. BW Zerg: MMM isn't going to enjoy facing lurkers at all, but unfortunately for the Zerg MMM hasn't been in style for a while now, and a marine+tank slow push shouldn't be at all bothered by them, especially not if a raven is hanging around for detection. BW Zerglings are better than the SC2 version, but with the tighter unit clumping SC2 marines are preeeeetty good, and ultimately they don't have any real role. In SC2 lings are more of a meat shield for banelings and a mop-up unit than a real damage dealer, and without banes they have little purpose. Hydralisks also melt against marine+tank - they may be better than the SC2 version, but anything that dies to marine+tank in BW will die to the SC2 marine+tank as well. Stacked mutalisks are obviously a joke against thors, and unstacked they get shredded by marines. Ultimately this matchup, just like in BW, comes down to the dark swarms. If they work Terran dies, if the defilers get sniped Zerg dies. I might post more stuff later, but at the moment I cbf. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
 ) of the Terran SC1 units are in the campaign. If we are comparing old and new units in SC2, then old units can be compared easily (at least Terran units).Goliaths are most notably stronger than its SC1 counterpart, dealing 18 ground attack and 8 (+8 against armor) to air. which is 6(for ground) and 4(for air) more damage than Goliaths in SC1 (and Vikings in SC2). Also not only do Goliaths deal more damage than Vikings but they fire faster (Goliaths only have 1.5 delay vs Vikings 2) against air but Vikings fire faster than Goliaths in ground attack. The Lurker is in the editor and does 15 (+15 against armored) damage, this means the Lurker deals 10 more damage than BW counterpart. Lurkers can also be upgraded to have 9 range (3 more than the BW counterpart). See here (scroll down to upgrades). Also Dark Archons are apparently a "dangerous forbidden technique" according to the wiki (that and they may or may not be introduced in the expansion later which is why they aren't present currently in WoL). Vultures have higher DPS than Hellions (but no splash). Wraiths have higher air-air DPS than Vikings and move faster (3.75 speed vs 2.75) but less range. Anyway SC1 and SC2 units have their ups and downs. I do not agree with the reason that all these units have become outdated (well maybe "lore-wise only" they "may be" but gameplay they are comparable to SC2 units). If we're comparing game to game (if each units had their own mechanics and stats from each game), BW probably wins mid to late tech due to spellcasters being much more stronger but SC2 (most notably Terran) are stronger early and mid game due to Marauders and MULEs. Take note in BW workers mined slower but they mined 7 minerals (overall mining rate "seems" less than SC2 though. ) however BW' workers mine gas much faster (only one geyser needed and each one brought 8 gas). | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:16 Ryuu314 wrote: I'm not sure what kind of DT fast expand you've been watchin in BW but good 4gate rushes hit at like...30-ish supply. Templar archives won't even be halfway done by then -.- DT's come out between the 4:45-6:00 mark depending on how fast you put down core and citadel. I believe the first round of warp-ins for the 4 WG comes around the 5:30 to 5:40 mark if its properly executed (not positive on this since I play only a mild amount of SC2). | ||
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
Couple things I'd like to say: Whoever says colossi are better than reavers doesn't know a thing about shuttle micro. Also that 1 good reaver shot is equal to 5 good colossi shots. In the end it won't even matter that colossi outrange reavers if you can pop 5 stalkers with one scarab. Tanks may fire faster in sc2, but 50 damage vs. 70 damage? The burst damage alone enough to make the attack speed not matter. Also if you have sc2 ai the 70 damage tanks don't even do that much friendly splash. Lurkers vs. banelings I'd take the lurker any day. You can bait banelings into suiciding into armored units, but try baiting lurkers with marines see how that goes. Most important of all I think is that scourge are not in the game. With scourge you can shut down drops easily, pick off colossi, pick off observers, etc... there's just so much you can do with scourge that this one unit can make many sc2 combinations just not work. Sc1 templars any day over sc2 templars. So much more damage output. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:25 Spicy Pepper wrote: If I knew nothing about both games, I'd guess the guy who gets 6 workers to start would win. People said multiple times, BW workers brought 8min per trip. So they would win out, EVEN with the macro mechanics. | ||
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Bear4188
United States1797 Posts
On April 14 2011 15:52 Jotoco wrote: People said multiple times, BW workers brought 8min per trip. So they would win out, EVEN with the macro mechanics. That's a completely worthless stat without factoring in time spent at patch, time spent from patch to town hall, and the effectiveness of the worker AI. | ||
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Godstorm
Romania845 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Flash, Bisu, Jaedong vs MVP, Nestea and MC I think I can rest my case. | ||
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