|
The problem I have with mech is expanding.
1) if toss fast expands you will be behind very quickly, and toss can hold a rine + tankpush if he is good.
2) if toss contains you, you can't expand very quickly, unless it's lost temple. Toss will expand himself and you will get behind.
You need a fast 3th and 4th gas if you mech, or zealots and immortals will eat you allive... I once played against a guy who had 2 collossus at 10:00 with 1 immortal and 5 stalkers and some zealots. It destroyed my 4 tanks + my rines. Mech is getting good when you reach a critical mass of tanks, but early game it's really weak imo.
If protoss abuses that early weakness by taking a fast 3th and 4th, you will lose. You just can't attack the protoss early game.
Anyone having ideas?
|
maybe use more hellions in your composition, maybe harass with banshees to keep him in his base while you get a good ammount of tanks, also thors are very good if he goes pheonix
|
On January 15 2011 20:04 cilinder007 wrote:
maybe use more hellions in your composition, maybe harass with banshees to keep him in his base while you get a good ammount of tanks, also thors are very good if he goes pheonix
I opened banshees a lot in the past, and I found it's a rock paper scissor build. If the protoss opens with phoenixes your banshee will get picked off very quickly.
|
best opening in tvp with mech style, is hellion drop
|
On January 15 2011 20:12 Garmer wrote:
best opening in tvp with mech style, is hellion drop
Yes, against a 1base toss. But if toss does a FE build you will kill some probes, but by the time you got your second base, toss is ahead in probes and you lose.
I really want a solid NOT-rockpaperscissor build.
|
Sweden33719 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 17:32 SecretA5DC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...? Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had. On January 15 2011 17:52 wherebugsgo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote:
now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech This. It also relied a lot on the surprise factor. MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain. Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot. Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran. Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm. I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here. Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition. On January 15 2011 17:57 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas. Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 20:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had. Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 17:52 wherebugsgo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote:
now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech This. It also relied a lot on the surprise factor. MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain. Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot. Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran. Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm. I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here. Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition. Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 17:57 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas. Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
But what can you do about the fast expand problem? Protoss can really kill you when you FE, even when they are FE'ing themselves. I really think that mech is very very weak early game and so too much abuseable, or am I missing something?
|
+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 20:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had. Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 17:52 wherebugsgo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote:
now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech This. It also relied a lot on the surprise factor. MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain. Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot. Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran. Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm. I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here. Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition. Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 17:57 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas. Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
cheers, as you said on some maps it's hard to play like that and there aren't really any mid-game timing pushes yet, high eco toss with HT and carrier tech is so hard to beat, i'm sure we'll find a way eventually. love your late cloak banshee and hellion drops, thats a great way to make toss busy and keep him on his toes. keep it up~
|
Well mech vs protoss has always had these weaknesses:
- Protoss takes a quick third, techs charge/storm, hits you with a timing attack around 10-12 minutes with overwhelming numbers. Your tank count will be low at this point so it's really hard to fend off. It should be possible to develop a build that's safe against this though.
- Poor mobility means the protoss should have a default macro advantage in the midgame. You can counter this somewhat with good hellion drops, but at the same time it's incredibly difficult to take a third without getting counter attacked in your main via warp prism.
- Speed ray / carrier switches in the mid-late game. With speed rays gone (and since carriers take 3 years to build), this is a LOT easier to deal with.
- You need almost all of your army together for it to be effective. Hugely reliant on critical mass.
- Awful reinforcement time. Lose a battle -> lose the game.
Still I think it will only really work on small maps or in close positions on metalopolis/LT. On big maps the mobility issue is too easy to exploit. Imo it is viable but heavily map/position dependent.
Imo Terran needs to experiment more with taking a very fast third with a planetary fortress against Z and P. It opens up so many more tech options and is relatively difficult to punish.
|
On January 15 2011 20:52 Moja wrote:
Imo Terran needs to experiment more with taking a very fast third with a planetary fortress against Z and P. It opens up so many more tech options and is relatively difficult to punish.
Protoss can ignore your third and just kill your nat and main, don't forget that. It's very easy to punnish.
|
On January 15 2011 20:58 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 20:52 Moja wrote:
Imo Terran needs to experiment more with taking a very fast third with a planetary fortress against Z and P. It opens up so many more tech options and is relatively difficult to punish. Protoss can ignore your third and just kill your nat and main, don't forget that. It's very easy to punnish.
Actually yeah this is very true + Show Spoiler +. I think it's stronger vs Z, but it could still have potential vs P.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 20:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had. Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 17:52 wherebugsgo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote:
now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech This. It also relied a lot on the surprise factor. MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain. Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot. Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran. Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm. I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here. Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition. Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 17:57 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas. Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
Your game against Axslav saw him using Carriers very effectively and basically expanding like a Zerg. Is this the type of play that you fear as mech?
|
Ahh man. Sucks to live in EU. :/ GSL was 6 am this time. 
Any way to see the VODs/replays with no season ticket?
|
On January 15 2011 21:43 BKSandland wrote:Ahh man. Sucks to live in EU. :/ GSL was 6 am this time. Any way to see the VODs/replays with no season ticket?
they're on sc2rep.com
|
+ Show Spoiler +Carriers really seemed to work poorly against what Jinro did. Even if MC had 3/4 more Carriers, those vikings still ripped through them so fast, in the end the viking count left over was so high, i think only 2/3 viking died, left no chance to even rebuild Carriers...sigh, going to suck when more Terrans mech :/
|
Sweden33719 Posts
On January 15 2011 21:15 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 20:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On January 15 2011 17:32 SecretA5DC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...? Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had. On January 15 2011 17:52 wherebugsgo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote:
now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech This. It also relied a lot on the surprise factor. MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain. Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot. Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran. Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm. I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here. Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition. On January 15 2011 17:57 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas. Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays. Your game against Axslav saw him using Carriers very effectively and basically expanding like a Zerg. Is this the type of play that you fear as mech?
Sort of but I think I made many mistakes that game (not scouting the carriers, playing too slow for the positions - because you cant expand past the gold very easily you need to be aggressive).
The fast 3rd by axslav is how I think you should play vs mech tho.
|
On January 15 2011 22:00 Dommk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Carriers really seemed to work poorly against what Jinro did. Even if MC had 3/4 more Carriers, those vikings still ripped through them so fast, in the end the viking count left over was so high, i think only 2/3 viking died, left no chance to even rebuild Carriers...sigh, going to suck when more Terrans mech :/
3-4 carriers are not enough, when you hit around 8 carriers they become unstoppable for a mech army though. Carriers + storm is like it was in BW, it rapes the crap out of terrans and the dps of 8 carriers is insane and you need too many vikings to deal with them
|
|
|
+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 22:05 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 22:00 Dommk wrote:
Carriers really seemed to work poorly against what Jinro did. Even if MC had 3/4 more Carriers, those vikings still ripped through them so fast, in the end the viking count left over was so high, i think only 2/3 viking died, left no chance to even rebuild Carriers...sigh, going to suck when more Terrans mech :/ 3-4 carriers are not enough, when you hit around 8 carriers they become unstoppable for a mech army though. Carriers + storm is like it was in BW, it rapes the crap out of terrans and the dps of 8 carriers is insane and you need too many vikings to deal with them MC had around 6 when Jinro engaged, he didn't even scratch Jinros viking count...even if he had 9/10, the viking would have still wiped the floor, I mean, if the amount of viking Jinro had took out that many Carriers with barely taking any losses, I hardly think another 8-9 would even be enough..
|
+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 22:49 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 22:05 Pulimuli wrote:On January 15 2011 22:00 Dommk wrote:
Carriers really seemed to work poorly against what Jinro did. Even if MC had 3/4 more Carriers, those vikings still ripped through them so fast, in the end the viking count left over was so high, i think only 2/3 viking died, left no chance to even rebuild Carriers...sigh, going to suck when more Terrans mech :/ 3-4 carriers are not enough, when you hit around 8 carriers they become unstoppable for a mech army though. Carriers + storm is like it was in BW, it rapes the crap out of terrans and the dps of 8 carriers is insane and you need too many vikings to deal with them MC had around 6 when Jinro engaged, he didn't even scratch Jinros viking count...even if he had 9/10, the viking would have still wiped the floor, I mean, if the amount of viking Jinro had took out that many Carriers with barely taking any losses, I hardly think another 8-9 would even be enough.. just saw the game and yeah that timing was pretty neat by jinro
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
