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On January 17 2011 01:15 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 00:06 Shlowpoke wrote:On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote:I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad  . Terran has these things called sensor towers that let you see things coming far enough in advance to react and re-position your army. Just because you don't know how to deal with something while playing mech doesn't mean MMM is the only way to play. -.-' Yep, and then you move your army to your main --> nat will die. Move half of your army to your main? Your half will die and he will eat the second half. That's how it works and strelok lost exact same way. While I am building sensor towers and while i am defending, toss is expanding like a zerg.
I really dont like your way of reasoning. Maybe you did something wrong before the moment where you had to move your army back to your main? Or maybe it wasnt a good situation to play mech in the first place?
It sounds like you think there is only one solution to each problem.
In the same way mech isnt supposed to be the one solution on how to play TvP.
Mech could work great in some situations, it is not supposed to be a new strategy on how to roll protoss every game.
Again please upload a replay.
It sounds like you are not aware of where your opponents army is and it sounds like your army had poor positioning.
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On January 16 2011 04:32 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 03:43 YarNhoj wrote:
Jinro showed @ GSL that mech can pretty convincingly win against protoss. mech could always win but void rays and carriers were always the achilies heel for mech vs protoss
You need to transition the strategy if you see Toss going strong air...two reactored starports usually handles any air that Toss throws at you.
Also, if Toss goes carrier you probably missed a big window of weakness to attack.
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On January 17 2011 03:17 LHUCKS1 wrote:
Also, if Toss goes carrier you probably missed a big window of weakness to attack.
Wrong. There are many legitimate periods where toss can go carriers effectively. After storm is out but T is playing defensively with PFs, trying to secure a 3rd and transition to ghosts is a good timing for a carrier transition. Another good time is 2 base carrier where T is securing a natural after a failed 1 base attack and he has to play defensive and eco up.
Carriers do present periods of weakness, but if approached from good timing windows they are perfectly safe.
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With this strategy, I constantly pump Marauder with my one rax if I have the gas, concussive is a very important upgrade that requires no macro that can tip a battle in your favor.
My typical unit composition vs. Toss now
Maraurder
Hellion
Tank
Viking
Goliaths generally take up too much gas, but if I have the gas I'll make goliaths to support tanks if I'm happy with my tank volume.
This thread has single handedly turned my TvP game around!! But you need to be wary of Toss air, actively scout with reapers or vikings and if you see air, get reactored starports up ASAP so you can mass vikings.
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I somehow missed this thread and am mightily impressed with it after the Jinro vs MC game!
During the interview, Jinro stated that his record against Protoss improved dramatically when he used mech. So, it's not a one-hit-wonder thing.
As for people criticising MC's decision to go for Phoenix in both games, Jinro stated that MC used it many times against him (during practice) with success.
Also as for the carriers in game 2, Jinro said that MC has fended of the mech-play using carriers. However, the difference is that MC's 3rd expansion was slower than normal (which needn't be since Jinro was going the immobile mech), which is why he managed to do a timing push against him.
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Do people really don't see why jinro won? Mc attacked early-med game and FAILED (on both lost temple and scrap station). Then jinro rolled him. Every terran will roll the protoss with mech after a failed attack from the protoss. Mc just had to do 3 things:
- expand like a zerg
- defend
- abuse the mech immobility. Imagine that jinro is at the towers on lost temple. Mc can just go with collo + stalker around the tower and then just blink into jinro's main, take off a few units and factories, then retreat. By the time jinro moved his mech army to his main, mc can retreat and the damage is done. Then do it again, but this time sandwish jinro. If jinro wins? Np, mc will have much more bases and he will reproduce his army very easy. I am really wondering what jinro has to say about this.
Mc attacked while he just had to expand and defend.
People don't seem to understand how long it takes to move a whole tank army from your natural to your main + siege them. By that time toss can retreat or even take your tanks out if you only send half of them.
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Czech Republic1973 Posts
On January 17 2011 03:51 Dente wrote:
Do people really don't see why jinro won? Mc attacked early-med game and FAILED (on both lost temple and scrap station). Then jinro rolled him. Every terran will roll the protoss with mech after a failed attack from the protoss. Mc just had to do 3 things:
- expand like a zerg
- defend
- abuse the mech immobility. Imagine that jinro is at the towers on lost temple. Mc can just go with collo + stalker around the tower and then just blink into jinro's main, take off a few units and factories, then retreat. By the time jinro moved his mech army to his main, mc can retreat and the damage is done. Then do it again, but this time sandwish jinro. If jinro wins? Np, mc will have much more bases and he will reproduce his army very easy. I am really wondering what jinro has to say about this.
Mc attacked while he just had to expand and defend.
People don't seem to understand how long it takes to move a whole tank army from your natural to your main + siege them. By that time toss can retreat or even take your tanks out if you only send half of them.
I think this is where Sensor Towers comes into play.. Of course you need to place them in right spots, like not where your army is sieged, but at corners to avoid Warp prism or bling/collosus raids..
Anyways, if you have 150/200 upgraded mech army, its so infinitely easier to fight, because in this stage of game your bio is just being obliterated by HTs..
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On January 17 2011 04:31 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 03:51 Dente wrote:
Do people really don't see why jinro won? Mc attacked early-med game and FAILED (on both lost temple and scrap station). Then jinro rolled him. Every terran will roll the protoss with mech after a failed attack from the protoss. Mc just had to do 3 things:
- expand like a zerg
- defend
- abuse the mech immobility. Imagine that jinro is at the towers on lost temple. Mc can just go with collo + stalker around the tower and then just blink into jinro's main, take off a few units and factories, then retreat. By the time jinro moved his mech army to his main, mc can retreat and the damage is done. Then do it again, but this time sandwish jinro. If jinro wins? Np, mc will have much more bases and he will reproduce his army very easy. I am really wondering what jinro has to say about this.
Mc attacked while he just had to expand and defend.
People don't seem to understand how long it takes to move a whole tank army from your natural to your main + siege them. By that time toss can retreat or even take your tanks out if you only send half of them.
I think this is where Sensor Towers comes into play.. Of course you need to place them in right spots, like not where your army is sieged, but at corners to avoid Warp prism or bling/collosus raids.. Anyways, if you have 150/200 upgraded mech army, its so infinitely easier to fight, because in this stage of game your bio is just being obliterated by HTs..
Let's imagine that I have a sensor tower in my main. I see him coming. Then I need to move my whole mech army to my main, and this will go very slow. By the time I'm marching up my ramp, he is there killing some stuff, and then he will retreat. Just watch naniwa vs strelok!
For example: metapolis. How can I take a third if I need to move between my main and my nat? Toss will have a faster third and fourth + mapcontrol.
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On December 30 2010 17:02 giuocob wrote:
Holy crap, this is awesome. Looks a whole lot like BW. Now we need someone to win GSL with this and we're golden. Any takers?
Haha if you saw the Ro16 Code S group D the other day, Jinro took oGsMC out with builds similar to these. 2-0. Chinro Fighting! :D
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so at what time do you take your third with mech play ? at what # of tanks, also do you only start getting thors if he goes pheonix or do you use the 250mm to deal with the immortals
and what do you do against an immortal heavy composition
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On January 17 2011 03:51 Dente wrote:
Do people really don't see why jinro won? Mc attacked early-med game and FAILED (on both lost temple and scrap station). Then jinro rolled him. Every terran will roll the protoss with mech after a failed attack from the protoss. Mc just had to do 3 things:
- expand like a zerg
- defend
- abuse the mech immobility. Imagine that jinro is at the towers on lost temple. Mc can just go with collo + stalker around the tower and then just blink into jinro's main, take off a few units and factories, then retreat. By the time jinro moved his mech army to his main, mc can retreat and the damage is done. Then do it again, but this time sandwish jinro. If jinro wins? Np, mc will have much more bases and he will reproduce his army very easy. I am really wondering what jinro has to say about this.
Mc attacked while he just had to expand and defend.
People don't seem to understand how long it takes to move a whole tank army from your natural to your main + siege them. By that time toss can retreat or even take your tanks out if you only send half of them.
Ok now your posts are starting to look like blatant whine.
MC was still in the lead(atleast at one point during the game) supply-wise after both of those attacks.
Abuse mech immobility? Do you know the speed of a colossus? Do you know the speed of a tank?
Assuming that your army is positioned properly, do you realize it takes a lot more time for the protoss to walk all the way around your army than it does to reposition your army a little bit to block the road into your main? You are lying to yourself if you think that unsiege/siege takes more time than having to run 3 times the total distance.
Do you realize how vulnerable the protoss's front will be if he even attemps to do this?
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On January 16 2011 00:22 sGDaevil wrote:
I played this strat out on some maps and it got demolished. When the protoss goes VR you are dead. once the protoss gets like 10+ VRs you are in alot of trouble. Even with marines turrets and vikings you cant hold it. The imobile tanks cant win you the game. The protoss will out expand you and kill you if you move forward more than 1 inch at a time. Wont work at high level play.
I have seen a replay of you in another thread, its defo not high level play.
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Alright BroodjeBaller, because Mr. 5 posts which are all flames as far as I can see really has alot of credit, whats your ranking because your counter point to Dente's is ridiculously naive. Tanks take a long time to move up a ramp because they are fat not even taking into consideration seige and unseige time, and you will hardly have such good map control that you will see them coming from 3x the distance away.
It goes like this lets pretend its LT, a big group of blink stalkers moves around outside your map control range, then they make a beeline straight for your cliff and blink up. Now best case scenario you had a sensory tower and some time to unseige your tanks. Now the stalkers have arrived at your base and you are still going to need to move them back from their forward position and then up the ramp basically one at a time, where they will have to wait until a sufficient number has gotten up there or you will get ruined. Not to mention how its difficult to move bulky tanks through a lategame base full of buildings. Meanwhile you have lost your containment position probably a couple of buildings and maybe some tanks while you were moving around and protoss has lost nothing at all.
And yes the protoss front is vulnerable, but siege tank armies cant attack quickly into a base very well without risking heavy loses. They have to move slowly whenever they encounter more then the smallest resistance, so even if there are only 5 zealots and 2 collosus left at base, if you try to attack into that with unseiged tanks you will lose more then hes losing at your base to some marines and 2 tanks and you will probably lose the base trade.
Douche.
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On January 17 2011 10:12 statikg wrote:Douche.
There's no need for that kind of abuse. Broodjeballer made a fair point: if Dente wants help understanding how mech can be used effectively in TvP, he should post a replay of his and ask for assistance, rather than whining.
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statikg described it perfectly. I don't need advice about mech. I beated 3k+ diamonds with it (before patch 1.2) and I experimented with it for a very long time. I saw alot of 200/200 protoss army's melt to my 150/200 tank army so I was happy to found out a way to combat the protoss army.
Then I met protoss players who abused the fact that I was going mech:
- contain me so they can get their second base much quicker and so that I have my 3th and 4th gas much later. By the time I have enough tanks to attack (yes, you need an amount of them to be able to win a battle) they got 2 more bases and I will lose 100%.
- abuse my immobility. It's like statikg described: tanks are slow and it's damn hard to move them up your ramp and siege them. If you manage to get them up, toss can just retreat and toy with you. Like I said: watch strelok vs naniwa. Strelok killed naniwa's army but naniwa immeadiately made a new one and destroyed strelok with collo + stalkers. He just abused the cliff.
- abuse the mothership. If you have to move your tanks all around the map, and with the fear of speedlots and blinkstalkers, there is never enough time to spread your tanks very well. 1 vortex and half of your tanks will be gone.
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On January 17 2011 10:12 statikg wrote:
Alright BroodjeBaller, because Mr. 5 posts which are all flames as far as I can see really has alot of credit, whats your ranking because your counter point to Dente's is ridiculously naive. Tanks take a long time to move up a ramp because they are fat not even taking into consideration seige and unseige time, and you will hardly have such good map control that you will see them coming from 3x the distance away.
It goes like this lets pretend its LT, a big group of blink stalkers moves around outside your map control range, then they make a beeline straight for your cliff and blink up. Now best case scenario you had a sensory tower and some time to unseige your tanks. Now the stalkers have arrived at your base and you are still going to need to move them back from their forward position and then up the ramp basically one at a time, where they will have to wait until a sufficient number has gotten up there or you will get ruined. Not to mention how its difficult to move bulky tanks through a lategame base full of buildings. Meanwhile you have lost your containment position probably a couple of buildings and maybe some tanks while you were moving around and protoss has lost nothing at all.
And yes the protoss front is vulnerable, but siege tank armies cant attack quickly into a base very well without risking heavy loses. They have to move slowly whenever they encounter more then the smallest resistance, so even if there are only 5 zealots and 2 collosus left at base, if you try to attack into that with unseiged tanks you will lose more then hes losing at your base to some marines and 2 tanks and you will probably lose the base trade.
Douche.
Assuming your army is positioned like jinro vs mc on LT (And I assume you are talking about such a situation aswell since your are talking about losing your containment position).
You can easily intercept the collosus and stalkers at the bushes. There is no need to move all(or half) of your tanks back into your main.
"Only 5 zealots and 2 collosus" Thats 22 supply/1100 minerals/400 gas, which means his main army is significantly weaker.
And I didnt imply to attack his front with tanks in the first place.
You can easily poke with a couple of marauders/marines to see if he really has the "only 5 zealots and 2 collosus" and if he doesnt you can sacrifise the units to take out the nexus at his natural.
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On January 17 2011 19:16 BroodjeBaller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 10:12 statikg wrote:
Alright BroodjeBaller, because Mr. 5 posts which are all flames as far as I can see really has alot of credit, whats your ranking because your counter point to Dente's is ridiculously naive. Tanks take a long time to move up a ramp because they are fat not even taking into consideration seige and unseige time, and you will hardly have such good map control that you will see them coming from 3x the distance away.
It goes like this lets pretend its LT, a big group of blink stalkers moves around outside your map control range, then they make a beeline straight for your cliff and blink up. Now best case scenario you had a sensory tower and some time to unseige your tanks. Now the stalkers have arrived at your base and you are still going to need to move them back from their forward position and then up the ramp basically one at a time, where they will have to wait until a sufficient number has gotten up there or you will get ruined. Not to mention how its difficult to move bulky tanks through a lategame base full of buildings. Meanwhile you have lost your containment position probably a couple of buildings and maybe some tanks while you were moving around and protoss has lost nothing at all.
And yes the protoss front is vulnerable, but siege tank armies cant attack quickly into a base very well without risking heavy loses. They have to move slowly whenever they encounter more then the smallest resistance, so even if there are only 5 zealots and 2 collosus left at base, if you try to attack into that with unseiged tanks you will lose more then hes losing at your base to some marines and 2 tanks and you will probably lose the base trade.
Douche. Assuming your army is positioned like jinro vs mc on LT (And I assume you are talking about such a situation aswell since your are talking about losing your containment position). You can easily intercept the collosus and stalkers at the bushes. There is no need to move all(or half) of your tanks back into your main. "Only 5 zealots and 2 collosus" Thats 22 supply/1100 minerals/400 gas, which means his main army is significantly weaker. And I didnt imply to attack his front with tanks in the first place. You can easily poke with a couple of marauders/marines to see if he really has the "only 5 zealots and 2 collosus" and if he doesnt you can sacrifise the units to take out the nexus at his natural.
We are talking about MECH men. You can't poke with marines or marauders. Please stop posting about this subject untill you saw strelok vs naniwa. Strelok moved half of his tanks to his main and he lost all those tanks. Stalkers blink into your tanks and collossae will finnish them. You can't intercept the collosus and stalkers...
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You play mech without any other units? Seriously.
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On January 17 2011 19:48 BroodjeBaller wrote:
You play mech without any other units? Seriously.
Early game some marines yes, but that's it. Mech = tank, thor, hellion, viking.
I wonder what league you are and what race you play.
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Then you take the name of the play way too literally.
And this could be the cause of your losses.
If someones army is tank/thor heavy with some vikings/medivacs and a lot of marines I would still refer to it as mech based play.
You are blaming the whole strategy when you dont even play it properly.
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EPT
