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question for Jinro
+ Show Spoiler +Do you think if you had had to walk around the map that MC would have had enough time to prepare and not lose? If so, could you have beaten him if he had a few more carriers with your unit composition or was he just too far off critical mass? And finally, since GSL is trying out some new maps that seem more focused on solid play, should we expect more of this?
Vikings + Marines does seem like the answer to carriers (I cant see battlecruisers unless he is attacking into you and your plan to win is to hold off as long as possible and not ever attack) but I have a few thoughts about the issue:
1. if the vikings get focused down or the carriers can simply stay alive long enough to giggle on the ground army then I think T just outright loses.
2. carriers cannot run now. I didnt play much BW but Im pretty sure I remember hearing the key to carrier success was the terrain on a map; is that right? Goliaths could be hit and run because of map terrain but now vikings just fly over it.
3. the solution cannot be "don't let him get to carriers". Im glad talk like this has died down significantly since the beta, but since we are moving towards 6+ gases and longer games we have to accept that that is enough time to prepare carriers.
anyway, these be exciting times. I know someone who would be happy:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Question for Jinro
+ Show Spoiler +Mind posting a mech rep pack next Liquid Weekly?  I haven't seen the vods yet but judging from the Liquid ROFLSTOMP of the other teams, you do harass->macro mech. I'm trying to do a Thor mech that's based on taking a fast third so having some reps for reference of a different style would be great.
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I played this strat out on some maps and it got demolished. When the protoss goes VR you are dead. once the protoss gets like 10+ VRs you are in alot of trouble. Even with marines turrets and vikings you cant hold it. The imobile tanks cant win you the game. The protoss will out expand you and kill you if you move forward more than 1 inch at a time. Wont work at high level play.
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On January 16 2011 00:22 sGDaevil wrote:
I played this strat out on some maps and it got demolished. When the protoss goes VR you are dead. once the protoss gets like 10+ VRs you are in alot of trouble. Even with marines turrets and vikings you cant hold it. The imobile tanks cant win you the game. The protoss will out expand you and kill you if you move forward more than 1 inch at a time. Wont work at high level play.
No longer true now that flux vanes was removed...
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"...high level..."
*chuckle*
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On January 15 2011 22:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 21:15 Numy wrote:On January 15 2011 20:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On January 15 2011 17:32 SecretA5DC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...? Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had. On January 15 2011 17:52 wherebugsgo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote:
now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech This. It also relied a lot on the surprise factor. MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain. Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot. Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran. Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm. I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here. Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition. On January 15 2011 17:57 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas. Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays. Your game against Axslav saw him using Carriers very effectively and basically expanding like a Zerg. Is this the type of play that you fear as mech? Sort of but I think I made many mistakes that game (not scouting the carriers, playing too slow for the positions - because you cant expand past the gold very easily you need to be aggressive). The fast 3rd by axslav is how I think you should play vs mech tho.
Fast 3rd with multiple robos or blink are the best solutions to mech play. In addition protosses are going to have to learn to use walls/semiwalls to hold off hellions.
I noticed you weren't getting any ghosts with your mech. When I meched back in beta as T (granted balance was different) I found that without ghosts you'd just roll over and die to well eco-d immortals.
I also found that all protoss had to do was kill enough tanks to keep you from safely pushing while expanding/getting carriers. There isn't really a good solution to carriers because toss can have +2 air weapons before his first carrier is even out, putting you really behind in viking vs carriers. Chargelots can take on marines pretty well, drawing tank splash into them.
+ Show Spoiler +Ultimately, I think MC was surprised and he played very sub-par. Will mech have a comeback? I don't know, but it's clear that bio has limitations. I still haven't seen anyone do my bio => mech transition style play from beta. I think that removes a lot of the limitations/weaknesses of the 1/1/1 style openings.
Great games though, was fun to see some different play.
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On January 16 2011 00:22 sGDaevil wrote:
I played this strat out on some maps and it got demolished. When the protoss goes VR you are dead. once the protoss gets like 10+ VRs you are in alot of trouble. Even with marines turrets and vikings you cant hold it. The imobile tanks cant win you the game. The protoss will out expand you and kill you if you move forward more than 1 inch at a time. Wont work at high level play.
voidrays are the easiest air to counter, turrets/vikings+ 2 thors rape 10 voidrays
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+ Show Spoiler +For those interested in seeing more of this style's execution from Jinro I highly recommend to check out the Machinima Realm Invitational.They are great games and demonstrate both the strengths and weaknesses of a mech/harassment play against Protoss. Mana vs Jinro Lotze vs Jinro Jinro vs Axslav
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This style has a big ass Jungle Basin seal of approval on it
Also I think what makes it viable now that flux vane VR are gone is more the blue flame hellions than anything else, even if you can't really attack directly for a while and have an immobile army, hellions are not and it doesn't take lot of hellions to destroy an economy
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Jinro showed @ GSL that mech can pretty convincingly win against protoss.
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On January 16 2011 03:43 YarNhoj wrote:
Jinro showed @ GSL that mech can pretty convincingly win against protoss.
mech could always win but void rays and carriers were always the achilies heel for mech vs protoss
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On January 16 2011 04:32 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 03:43 YarNhoj wrote:
Jinro showed @ GSL that mech can pretty convincingly win against protoss. mech could always win but void rays and carriers were always the achilies heel for mech vs protoss
carriers can be dealt with by launching your push on the protoss when he is just getting carriers. the reason for this is a) his ground army is comprimised by the tech and b) your viking count will be sufficient by this time to take down the few carriers that come out each production cycle.
If this doesn't end the game, establish a good position and set up turrets/research stim and throw down more rax and bunkers. let the marines and turrets target the interceptors while you micro the vikings to snipe the carriers.
beating mech isn't a matter of unit composition, it's a matter of having better macro and game sense.
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On January 16 2011 10:23 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 04:32 cilinder007 wrote:On January 16 2011 03:43 YarNhoj wrote:
Jinro showed @ GSL that mech can pretty convincingly win against protoss. mech could always win but void rays and carriers were always the achilies heel for mech vs protoss carriers can be dealt with by launching your push on the protoss when he is just getting carriers. the reason for this is a) his ground army is comprimised by the tech and b) your viking count will be sufficient by this time to take down the few carriers that come out each production cycle. If this doesn't end the game, establish a good position and set up turrets/research stim and throw down more rax and bunkers. let the marines and turrets target the interceptors while you micro the vikings to snipe the carriers. beating mech isn't a matter of unit composition, it's a matter of having better macro and game sense.
Agreed with the last bit. A bunch of people in here are like you just make units and win or you just mass expand and win or you just make this unit and win. And that's not the case, you just have to be more solid than your opponent.
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I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad  .
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On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote:I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad .
Maybe you could upload a replay?
Your loss might have a different cause then what you are thinking, since your story sounds very odd.
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On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote:I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad .
Terran has these things called sensor towers that let you see things coming far enough in advance to react and re-position your army.
Just because you don't know how to deal with something while playing mech doesn't mean MMM is the only way to play. -.-'
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On January 17 2011 00:06 Shlowpoke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote:I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad . Terran has these things called sensor towers that let you see things coming far enough in advance to react and re-position your army. Just because you don't know how to deal with something while playing mech doesn't mean MMM is the only way to play. -.-'
Yep, and then you move your army to your main --> nat will die. Move half of your army to your main? Your half will die and he will eat the second half. That's how it works and strelok lost exact same way. While I am building sensor towers and while i am defending, toss is expanding like a zerg.
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On January 17 2011 01:15 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 00:06 Shlowpoke wrote:On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote:I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad . Terran has these things called sensor towers that let you see things coming far enough in advance to react and re-position your army. Just because you don't know how to deal with something while playing mech doesn't mean MMM is the only way to play. -.-' Yep, and then you move your army to your main --> nat will die. Move half of your army to your main? Your half will die and he will eat the second half. That's how it works and strelok lost exact same way. While I am building sensor towers and while i am defending, toss is expanding like a zerg.
The story is odd if he tries to move his whole army into your main if you played properly in most situations you should be able to sandwich his army in there and wipe it out very cost effectively as he is attacking into you.
Protoss mass expanding means he will have less units meaning you can safely push with less supply than you usually would wait for.
TvP is obviously not imbalanced as other than MC and Tester what tosses is anyone actually afraid of. And Mech obviously works even if only situational. MMM is not the only option if you think that then you really need to learn to be open minded.
Also who cares if you lose a few games going Mech, you should never win 100% of your games because of a strategy otherwise it would be an imbalanced strategy...
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This isnt directed to the OP. But I cant stand reading posts of people who seem to think you can magically make any unit composition at will. You cant just expect to make Mech, Vikings for anti air, Ghosts to snipe Templars, Ravens for detection, etc. any time you feel like it. Even if your economy could support it, theres such thing as a delay where you need to build the infrastructure, research upgrades, etc. before you can implement that unit. And thats not the end of the story. Lets say youre going Mech and you "want to make Vikings" well youre spending money and time just to have the ability to make Vikings. Meanwhile youre Mech army is getting weaker from attacks and the fact that you cant reinforce.
I would think this idea is pretty obvious. But apparently not as so many people make these statements in this forum. Its not that big of a deal I guess as I can easily ignore these posts but it makes it rather difficult to mine out the good info from the bad ones.
Having said that I still dont believe its entirely effective to use Mech vs a good Protoss player. I wish it was true but I just cant imagine crippling the key advantage of Terran in MMMG mobility. Ive tried too many times and failed against lesser Protoss that I wouldve rolled through using MMMG (my winrate using Mech vs P is like 20-30% and usually requires Protoss making big mistakes; whereas MMMG has a much higher winrate... something like 65% or higher). Maybe Im doing things wrong, and I read these threads hoping to get some good advice, only to be disappointed when its riddled with statements like the one above.
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IMO, Jinro was able to pull of a miracle with his mech victories but its still doesnt prove that its a good strategy. Jinro was able to win the first game mainly because of MC blowing it on the hellion drop and then being forced to attack into a seiged position which is always a bad plan (and close positions didnt help).
The story from the guy above wtih blink stalkers and cliff walkers doesnt sound odd to me at all, thats only one of the various ways that protoss can easily crush a Terran trying to play tank mech. There will always be a few games that people will point to to prove how well it works, but the fact of the matter is, there's a million games where it gets crushed that nobody shows.
The thor push only worked because of MC's odd composition again (too many phoenixes considering there were no banshees and not enough carriers), although I am interested in a possible thor/viking combo now. Vikings deal with collosus/voids and thors everything else, it would be quite a balancing act with your gas usage though.
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EPT
