Howdy TL, there was a TvP Terran point of view thread that became 32 pages of constant brainstorming that turned into whining about HTs Warp-ins and other things and I suggested going Mech and a lot of people demanded replays of me going Mech so here I have 10 games of me Meching and winning against Toss.
Things to note:
I am NOT a good player by any means. I don't play very often and I'm only 1600-1700ish Diamond but everyone I play against is 1600-2400 for some reason because the matchmaking system is messed. That being said I am bad and still won against some pretty decent players so that defends the strategy and any criticisms you can note for the toss player i probably played worse so don't just be like well he didn't do this at this time because, I didn't do anything right by any good player's point of view lol.
Also the replay against jade a 2200 toss made me giggle.
In all these replays I do a 1 Rax reactor expand because I had this gut feeling for a long time that it defended against the 4 gate strategy. Turns out if done properly there is a key timing at roughly the 6:30 to 7 minute mark where even just a chronoed 3 gate pressure can bust you before you expand and get up the bunkers.
SO putting a bunker down at the 6 minute mark will keep you safe from the 4 gate. Had to find that out the hard way myself. You will unfortunately be contained until you get 1 or 2 tanks with siege out but Meh he 4 gated so expanding a lil late won't hurt anyways.
Also this is just the opening I do there's probably numerous ways to go about opening like a Siege expand or 2 fact i just prefer the really fast expo. This is just for anyone of you players who feel bold enough to attempt this kind of strategy.
Usually when I'd lose during this strat it would either be because I just did something terrible or I didn't scout VR tech switch in time or that key 6 min timing before i realized i should put down a bunker (which is the openings fault not Mech). Most of the time the trade off in the battles in all these games were extremely cost effective in my favor.
Key things I aim for (but don't always achieve cuz I screwed up or something): +2 weapons upgrades on the vehicles. Tanks demolish anything armored as soon as they are in range meaning Stalkers and Collossi in particular. Immortals last a bit long but with the bunker marines and the hellions their shields don't last too long to be troublesome usually unless it's a very good Immortal/Zlot timing. Also this upgrade makes it easier to snipe HTs.
Harassment with Hellions. I don't make use of this often cuz I'm not amazing but keep harassment on your mind. Also they make for the best type of scouting as well as being used for HT or Zlot hunting parties. Often I'll find a troop of Zlots away from the main army and i can just pick them off for free.
Also don't start getting super super aggressive until you get you're third (unless you can find a timing I'm too dense to discover) and before being aggressive have like 7 factories, 3 barracks reactored and 3 starports reactored. Bewilders them how fast you re-mass.
I know 98% of you won't ever do this kind of play even after seeing these reps cuz this is not how the pros play but this is just my kind of proof that no strategy should be completely undo-able unless maybe you're pro level because Starcraft 2 is just so much more flavorful that the basically solved BW was. There's just so many more factors to think about and use.
Unfortunately I'm gunna have to go back to doin MMM now so people won't blind counter me or something on Bnet :/. lol
I find the biggest strength about mech is that tanks allow you to get up a huge economy safely.
The minute you decide to mech, your tank count is what the game revolves around, and you only have enough gas off of 2 bases to produce so many tanks, so it is very easy to spend the excess minerals on a quick third base while still producing tanks constantly.
Not only that, but your timing of weakness while expanding can be shored up quite easily by the fact that it's damn hard to bust 2 bases worth of tanks in a head on assault (helms deep anyone?). The filler units like marines and hellions can be pumped out relatively quickly to support the tank numbers, making tank expanding really strong in my eyes.
On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote: One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily
I hope you're not suggesting blink stalkers going head-to-head against the siege tanks, because they can blink in and out all they want, but they'll still get eaten alive by tank fire.
Blink stalkers as harass would be a big problem against the immobility of siege tanks, but you could probably swap out 1 or 2 of the factories for some rax to deal with any of that.
On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote: One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily
In the early game when you're just building up tank numbers blink stalkers/warp prisms can make the terran very fragile but later on in the game when the mech wall is turtling hard with good positioning I don't see how blink stalkers would be any better than normal stalkers. When the terran decides to move out I don't see why blink would abuse the build so easily since the protoss has to pull all his units together to have a chance at killing the tank line? Even if he blinks a bunch of stalkers into your tank line they will take out a few tanks from splash but if they are spread even reasonably well the stalkers will just take more damage from splash since when they blink they get balled up.
On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote: One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily
I dunno about during the early game but notice in most of the games i surround my base with turrets as well as upgrade the turret range so he can't blink in cuz he needs an obs to see over the cliff. if im not mistaken the observer can't get in range of seeing the turret for the stalkers to shoot after the turret range. i could be wrong on that tho so don't quote me on it.
On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote: One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily
I dunno about during the early game but notice in most of the games i surround my base with turrets as well as upgrade the turret range so he can't blink in cuz he needs an obs to see over the cliff. if im not mistaken the observer can't get in range of seeing the turret for the stalkers to shoot after the turret range. i could be wrong on that tho so don't quote me on it.
if the protoss blinks fast he can get up the shelf with an observer spotting through a turret. If he does this he's committing a chunk of troops to your base though, just trap them with siege tanks and minimize your losses then your push will be that much stronger.
I'm trying to think of all the things that would give this trouble as a strategy. I'm going to ignore any early rush/all-in strategies, because the early game can be changed to accommodate those, but the end goal of tank+hellion+marine is the same.
Chargelots - these only become a big problem when they get all up in your tanks' face, but honestly, I don't think they're that big of a threat if you can block them with your hellions. A big ball of 10+ blue flame hellions with marines and tanks behind it is going to kill infinity zealots.
Void rays - anything more than a smattering of void rays would give this trouble, so it would need to be scouted. Once scouted, extra marines and/or vikings would be enough to shut this down.
Carriers - pretty much the same as vrs.
High templar - Hellion snipes! Also ghosts if you feel you really need it.
Immortals: These guys actually kinda suck once the tank count starts hitting the double digits. Without impeccable micro, the immortals are all going to lose their shields at once to splash, and then get rolled.
I'd guess the optimal protoss composition to deal with this would be chargelots, templar, and void rays, maybe a few colossi if the tech already existed. But does this actually have a hard counter? If it does, I can't think of one.
On December 30 2010 17:38 MUirbeqU wrote: Immortal prism drops on tanks could end this.
marines,bunkers and turrets around your tanks stop this. warp prisms are like feathers that's why nobody was using them until recently with Nony mentioning them on SotG and MC Caving Rain's face in with them.
On December 30 2010 17:38 MUirbeqU wrote: Immortal prism drops on tanks could end this.
I haven't even seen the replays yet but can't you just mix few marines in here to avoid this? At least meching terrans have started to use few marines in their mech play just to shutdown the magic boxing over thors.
On December 30 2010 17:38 giuocob wrote: I'm trying to think of all the things that would give this trouble as a strategy. I'm going to ignore any early rush/all-in strategies, because the early game can be changed to accommodate those, but the end goal of tank+hellion+marine is the same.
Chargelots - these only become a big problem when they get all up in your tanks' face, but honestly, I don't think they're that big of a threat if you can block them with your hellions. A big ball of 10+ blue flame hellions with marines and tanks behind it is going to kill infinity zealots.
Void rays - anything more than a smattering of void rays would give this trouble, so it would need to be scouted. Once scouted, extra marines and/or vikings would be enough to shut this down.
Carriers - pretty much the same as vrs.
High templar - Hellion snipes! Also ghosts if you feel you really need it.
Immortals: These guys actually kinda suck once the tank count starts hitting the double digits. Without impeccable micro, the immortals are all going to lose their shields at once to splash, and then get rolled.
I'd guess the optimal protoss composition to deal with this would be chargelots, templar, and void rays, maybe a few colossi if the tech already existed. But does this actually have a hard counter? If it does, I can't think of one.
Believe it or not DTs of all things were giving me loads of trouble despite building turrets and here's why. Protoss would push and lose a ton of units but realize in the battle the turrets around my tanks would sometimes get taken out and he'd warp in loads of dts and send them all over the place. got really frustrating to deal with. but 90% of the times i lost doing mech strats was being killed off early or the VR tech switch cuz i got lazy with my scouting which is nothing but a noob mistake.
OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms. Edit: you can't have stim on marines as well
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
A warp prism with 2 immortals in it costs 700 minerals, 200 gas, quite a hefty sum. Any attempt to thin the tank numbers is going to certainly be a suicide mission for all three units involved. Obviously the drop is a miserable failure if the warp prism dies before it gets to the tanks; otherwise, it needs to kill at least 4 tanks for the drop to be considered a success, and I doubt it would get any more than that, probably fewer.
As far as expansion defense, just leave a siege tanks and a handful of marines anywhere especially vulnerable, a lot like tvt.
There is no "counter" to mech, other than solid play. I feel that collosi with range upgrade are what protoss needs to fight a well played mech. Tank critical mass vs collosi critical mass is exciting to watch. High templar storm drops can get messy late game, but hellion harrass is just as deadly all game long.
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
... okay you cannot be saturating your bases, making turrets and bunkers, making hellions, making marines, off of 2 half full bases. You also can't completely stop prism drops on your mineral lines unless you have some massive anti-air ability which this build doesn't have. You can't kill immortals with a few 0/0 non stim marines (300 hp plus 1 armor on 200 of it). If you make static defense everywhere, you will probably find plenty of protoss expos with a mothership and carriers (insert whatever here) Edit: actually the drop just has to contain you and you loose.
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
... okay you cannot be saturating your bases, making turrets and bunkers, making hellions, making marines, off of 2 half full bases. You also can't completely stop prism drops on your mineral lines unless you have some massive anti-air ability which this build doesn't have. You can't kill immortals with a few 0/0 non stim marines (300 hp plus 1 armor on 200 of it). If you make static defense everywhere, you will probably find plenty of protoss expos with a mothership and carriers (insert whatever here) Edit: actually the drop just has to contain you and you loose.
excuse me? meching terran doesnt care if he's contained because he's not moving out until his third is done and he has a big tank fleet anyways. lol. your warp prism will get dealt with by a turtling terran quite handily. Warp prisms are only scary to mech if theyre rushed super early game or if theyre used to storm your scvs late game.
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
... okay you cannot be saturating your bases, making turrets and bunkers, making hellions, making marines, off of 2 half full bases. You also can't completely stop prism drops on your mineral lines unless you have some massive anti-air ability which this build doesn't have. You can't kill immortals with a few 0/0 non stim marines (300 hp plus 1 armor on 200 of it). If you make static defense everywhere, you will probably find plenty of protoss expos with a mothership and carriers (insert whatever here)
Just watch the replays dude. i think one of them there actually was a guy that went mothership against me. And marines without stim actually do kill immortals quite well athankyou sir.
I actually find it hard to process how you think buildings turrets and bunkers is bad cuz it limits mobility. Have you watched or played BW TvP at all? there's ways to compensate for being immobile with the tanks and that's giving the protoss a reason to attack you.
I mean drops are obviously going to be good against Mech players that much is given bu you dont autowin by dropping 2 immortals in someones base lol. it might suck for a minute while the Terran goes and deals with it just like it sucks to have 4 hellions dropped in a toss main and those 4 hellions take out the ENTIRE ECONOMY but you know.
I'm pretty sure 6 unstimmed marines is what it takes to kill an immortal, though I'll check up on that. Anyway, your basic argument is that if the terran isn't good enough to hold off a drop, he loses. Extremely insightful, I guess this build is useless after all!
I hope this catches on. I would like to see a big ass carrier transition before I die.
Against immo drops can't he just get banshees and vikings? I mean one viking + banshee combo can stop all drops. I have only watched few replays though.
This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
On December 30 2010 18:13 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9k2jcPsQ This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
When going mech I would say that 30min games are pretty standard :> That's ingame time. Isn't the whole idea of mech is that you slowly crawl your way to his base so what did you expect.
Also that game was cross positions meta, which is pretty long
On December 30 2010 18:13 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9k2jcPsQ This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
When going mech I would say that 30min games are pretty standard :> That's ingame time. Isn't the whole idea of mech is that you slowly crawl your way to his base so what did you expect.
Also that game was cross positions meta, which is pretty long
I literally showed you what happens when you drop a unit on mass tanks. last I remember, people did this in BW. Immortals take 10 damage max for their first 100 health. Tanks take some amount of friendly fire damage but they are armored therefore increasing the damage. Zealots are light and take only 35 damage, upgraded marines have 45 health. I say dropping 1 immortal will pay back for the drop.
On December 30 2010 18:18 giuocob wrote: Oh no, the protoss is going to tech switch to infestors and kill a tank and a couple marines while I sit back and twiddle my thumbs! TvP is broken!
...seriously dude, where are you trying to go with this?
*facepalm* drops on mineral lines or tanks would be very juicy to watch.
Dude, WE KNOW that dropping stuff on tanks kills the tanks, you're about 8 years late on that revelation. The simple response is to KILL THE PRISM BEFORE IT GETS TO YOU. It takes very few stim marines to kill a 140 hp flying unit (and yes, if the game goes long enough that this sort of thing starts going on, stim becomes worth it.)
On December 30 2010 18:13 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9k2jcPsQ This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
Yeah...too bad toss doesn't have infestors :/.
Jokes aside yeah if your tanks are away from turrets and bunkers and vikings (all of which i get in my composition) then dropping units on top of the tanks would obviously be strong. Doesn't mean to composition completely sucks.
I got an idea. Go watch Day9 Daily number 130 Jinro's Mech in TvP. That's where i got the basic idea of how to go about pushing tho Jinro goes 1/1/1 instead of FE and cuts tanks for Ravens and uses more hellions than I do. Yeah int eh end of the Daily Jinro lost 1 of the many games to Pheonix but I've faced Pheonix and I gotta tell ya. Thors are amazing against Pheonixes.
As for Zlots closing in on your tanks the hellions and the bunkers are what stop that if you tag a good position and that's really what Mech is all about is key positioning.
Ex: The center area of Jungle Basin. You have the watch towers so you can track all movement around you so if his army goes on either end to flank or to hit your bases you can easily reposition or just push forward. also if he takes the middle expo on his end you can slowly push tanks forward enough just in range of his nexus so he's forced to attack you or lose his expo. Just examples.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
On December 30 2010 18:25 endline wrote: have you encountered phoenix/voids that pick off the tanks, along with a gateway push?
edit: i understand you have rines. pls don't say a few rines will handle it.
Yes i have. Guess it's not in the replays thought it was. Pheonixes are a really bad option as the marines and turrets make quick work of them and if you have the factories already you might as well get some thors out if he's stubborn about pheonix. Void Rays are nothing unless they are hidden very well and slowly massed like Carriers were in BW. This is why I feel safe with delaying the starport until after my 4 factories cuz marines even unupgraded handle them pretty handily early on. Sometimes if i scout robo ill even wait till after a fifth factory before dropping the starport. but after my third i usually, if i'm playing well, drop 2 more starports get all of them with reactors and wait till i see any sort of massed air tech switch action going on before spamming vikings.
BUT i do use that first reactor starport as soon as i get it i don't wait until i see air tech before getting any vikings cuz they are just awesome to have with mech even in few numbers. They do additional damage against Collossi and also they make for good spotters for your tanks and keep the protoss weary that you have them so switching to air may or may not save him and can scare him into trying to win on the ground which goes in my favor.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
Dude... did you watch that vid. the Prism doesn't get to Idra's base till pretty much the 8 minute mark.
what race do you play even I'm trying to figure out if you're a Terran who just doesn't want to accept anything new or a Protoss that just likes shutting people down on forums lol.
On December 30 2010 18:25 endline wrote: have you encountered phoenix/voids that pick off the tanks, along with a gateway push?
edit: i understand you have rines. pls don't say a few rines will handle it.
Yes i have. Guess it's not in the replays thought it was. Pheonixes are a really bad option as the marines and turrets make quick work of them and if you have the factories already you might as well get some thors out if he's stubborn about pheonix. Void Rays are nothing unless they are hidden very well and slowly massed like Carriers were in BW. This is why I feel safe with delaying the starport until after my 4 factories cuz marines even unupgraded handle them pretty handily early on. Sometimes if i scout robo ill even wait till after a fifth factory before dropping the starport. but after my third i usually, if i'm playing well, drop 2 more starports get all of them with reactors and wait till i see any sort of massed air tech switch action going on before spamming vikings.
well im a t player, and i've tried similar builds. and (can't find the replay unfortunately) got rolled by phoenix voids with blink stalkers and some sentries. i had turrets and rines. this was about when my second was almost saturated and had about 5 tanks - 20 rines 8 or so rauders (scouting showed the air tech, but not the council tech which was hidden well) he came in with about 10 stalkers 2 voids and 4 phoenix, maybe 3 sentries.
maybe i was too high and didnt care, but i got rolled.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
Dude... did you watch that vid. the Prism doesn't get to Idra's base till pretty much the 8 minute mark.
what race do you play even I'm trying to figure out if you're a Terran who just doesn't want to accept anything new or a Protoss that just likes shutting people down on forums lol.
My bad forgot that the game clock is different. I play zerg. Anyways having the gates and robo is standard protoss play, So you can basically drop at the 9 minute mark if you spot this play. Even at 10 minutes, you would be completely unprepared.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
On December 30 2010 18:13 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9k2jcPsQ This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
When going mech I would say that 30min games are pretty standard :> That's ingame time. Isn't the whole idea of mech is that you slowly crawl your way to his base so what did you expect.
Also that game was cross positions meta, which is pretty long
I literally showed you what happens when you drop a unit on mass tanks. last I remember, people did this in BW. Immortals take 10 damage max for their first 100 health. Tanks take some amount of friendly fire damage but they are armored therefore increasing the damage. Zealots are light and take only 35 damage, upgraded marines have 45 health. I say dropping 1 immortal will pay back for the drop.
I played bw so yes I know zealot drops on tank was great. BW terrans didn't have vikings and banshees to help them though. Also against zealot they didn't have blue flame hellions. ALSO as you said the zealot drop was awesome in bw but yet still tank play works and is the main way to play the matchup? Would immortal drops be good vs this play, of course they would. Some of them would work, some of them wouldn't but that doesn't mean mech play is out of the question. With a good mix and tank spread the immortals would kill few tanks but if you have good siege line and good support from other units like vikings/banshees/hellions I don't see why this couldn't work.
I'm sure there is some other problems otherwise we would see it more in pro games but I'm talking about diamond league here, even high diamond, which is miles from pro play.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
You should probably watch the replays considering Jade was the protoss and I was talking about the weakness of this build. Second off, how would this work lategame when a stargate is almost guaranteed.
On December 30 2010 18:25 endline wrote: have you encountered phoenix/voids that pick off the tanks, along with a gateway push?
edit: i understand you have rines. pls don't say a few rines will handle it.
Yes i have. Guess it's not in the replays thought it was. Pheonixes are a really bad option as the marines and turrets make quick work of them and if you have the factories already you might as well get some thors out if he's stubborn about pheonix. Void Rays are nothing unless they are hidden very well and slowly massed like Carriers were in BW. This is why I feel safe with delaying the starport until after my 4 factories cuz marines even unupgraded handle them pretty handily early on. Sometimes if i scout robo ill even wait till after a fifth factory before dropping the starport. but after my third i usually, if i'm playing well, drop 2 more starports get all of them with reactors and wait till i see any sort of massed air tech switch action going on before spamming vikings.
well im a t player, and i've tried similar builds. and (can't find the replay unfortunately) got rolled by phoenix voids with blink stalkers and some sentries. i had turrets and rines. this was about when my second was almost saturated and had about 5 tanks - 20 rines 8 or so rauders (scouting showed the air tech, but not the council tech which was hidden well) he came in with about 10 stalkers 2 voids and 4 phoenix, maybe 3 sentries.
maybe i was too high and didnt care, but i got rolled.
hmm I'll have to wait and face more of them. I'm pretty sure I've faced this before but yeah i dunno. i think a mix of blink stalkers and air units is definitely potent but I'd have to face more of that build to figure out a direct way to deal with it or upload a replay of me dealing with it.
I'm just curious as to how blink stalkers pheonix and VR could possible lose to that comp stalkers should melt to that high number of tanks and marauders and the marines should be microed to focus down the air. I could very well have been that you were too high XD.
In my experience the counter to tank heavy play is either a chargealot/stalker/HT/Collossus ball lategame (makes it hard to snipe anything and has good range to deal with tanks).
But in all seriousness I think you're going to have trouble with pheonixes. If he pumps pheonix to counter tanks (esp if he takes the 3rd before you) then he can basically lift the entire tank line. Marines not only can't kill them fast enough but they will auto target the chargealots that come in. If you try to back the marines up the tanks are obviously going to die with zealots next to them, and if you focus fire the pheonix the zealots are going to get next to marines without a problem, which leads to dead marines from both zealot dps and tank splash. You might think your position is defensible but honestly if the pheonix can disable your tanks for even 3 seconds, that gives the toss army the ability to get into range and start decimating you without the benifit of your initial volley (hugely important).
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
You should probably watch the replays considering Jade was the protoss and I was talking about the weakness of this build. Second off, how would this work lategame when a stargate is almost guaranteed.
Remember in BW how Mech would be working strong then the protoss would bust out the Carriers and the Terran would then proceed to shit his pants and bust out a load of Goliaths and ultimately win.
That's why i get 3 starports with reactors before doing any intense pushing action. So that when i see stargate i can bust out so many vikings so fast toss can't believe it.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
I don't understand how you can think this is any sort of argument against the general build being discussed here
there's an early game attack which is rarely seen that would probably be very strong against the opening presented in the OP (an opening which the OP stated was possibly weak and not really the point).
so what point does that make? ... almost anything is weak to something unscouted at a certain point. find me an invincible build and by all means I'll run with it. but to bring up a build that is not common -at all- as some sort of evidence as to the weakness of what the OP is doing is silly.
On December 30 2010 18:50 sikyon wrote: In my experience the counter to tank heavy play is either a chargealot/stalker/HT/Collossus ball lategame (makes it hard to snipe anything and has good range to deal with tanks).
But in all seriousness I think you're going to have trouble with pheonixes. If he pumps pheonix to counter tanks (esp if he takes the 3rd before you) then he can basically lift the entire tank line. Marines not only can't kill them fast enough but they will auto target the chargealots that come in. If you try to back the marines up the tanks are obviously going to die with zealots next to them, and if you focus fire the pheonix the zealots are going to get next to marines without a problem, which leads to dead marines from both zealot dps and tank splash. You might think your position is defensible but honestly if the pheonix can disable your tanks for even 3 seconds, that gives the toss army the ability to get into range and start decimating you without the benifit of your initial volley (hugely important).
This is all very true. But for every Pro there's a Con. The situation you're describing sounds like he's cutting a lot from his ground army going for enough phoenixes to lift all your tanks. which means it'd be that much easier for the marines and hellions to handle their own against any gateway units. especially if the marines are already in bunkers. People don't seem to believe it but hellions are actually cost effective against every gateway unit including the stalker (2 hellions > 1 stalker) and unupgraded marines are actually more powerful than expected which is why i decided it wasn't worth getting stim instead of an extra tank because it wasn't really necessary and if anything it would be bad because I'm not getting Medivacs.
But yes phoenix and gateways could potentially be devastating it all really depends on who macroed better and who micros the battle better.
On December 30 2010 18:50 sikyon wrote: In my experience the counter to tank heavy play is either a chargealot/stalker/HT/Collossus ball lategame (makes it hard to snipe anything and has good range to deal with tanks).
But in all seriousness I think you're going to have trouble with pheonixes. If he pumps pheonix to counter tanks (esp if he takes the 3rd before you) then he can basically lift the entire tank line. Marines not only can't kill them fast enough but they will auto target the chargealots that come in. If you try to back the marines up the tanks are obviously going to die with zealots next to them, and if you focus fire the pheonix the zealots are going to get next to marines without a problem, which leads to dead marines from both zealot dps and tank splash. You might think your position is defensible but honestly if the pheonix can disable your tanks for even 3 seconds, that gives the toss army the ability to get into range and start decimating you without the benifit of your initial volley (hugely important).
It would take a silly number of phoenixes to completely disable the kind of tank lines that show up in late game. If that happens, it's already been mentioned that thors roll over phoenixes, and there would surely be a good number of vikings in play. Certainly, he might disallow a few tank shots, but is it really worth the sacrifice of 10+ phoenixes?
My biggest gripe with this build is that I haven't seen any good close games yet. Maybe there is some I just need to watch more replays. All the replays I have watched is you owning them. By that I don't mean that tank play is just so strong. All of them have tried something silly like cannon rushes into 4gate or just 4gate and failed miserably. That combined with that their macro sucks, you get your 200/200 army when they are not even hitting 150. I want too see big 200 vs 200 battles and if it is possible to beat that standard protoss death ball.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
I don't understand how you can think this is any sort of argument against the general build being discussed here
there's an early game attack which is rarely seen that would probably be very strong against the opening presented in the OP (an opening which the OP stated was possibly weak and not really the point).
so what point does that make? ... almost anything is weak to something unscouted at a certain point. find me an invincible build and by all means I'll run with it. but to bring up a build that is not common -at all- as some sort of evidence as to the weakness of what the OP is doing is silly.
The point this makes is this build IS weak. I just tried going from 2 gate cyber into double immortal drop, not following a build order, in fact I don't even play protoss. I had the immortals loaded at 8:30 with 1500 minerals and 750 gas banked, with 4 warpgates. Don't tell me you can't improve that . Anyways point is the terran isn't scouting but if the protoss does then the toss just does the drop. This build applies 0 early pressure and 0 scouting. This is the equivalent of going mass voidray I don't see how you think you have to cheese to beat this.
On December 30 2010 19:07 Piski wrote: My biggest gripe with this build is that I haven't seen any good close games yet. Maybe there is some I just need to watch more replays. All the replays I have watched is you owning them. By that I don't mean that tank play is just so strong. All of them have tried something silly like cannon rushes into 4gate or just 4gate and failed miserably. That combined with that their macro sucks, you get your 200/200 army when they are not even hitting 150. I want too see big 200 vs 200 battles and if it is possible to beat that standard protoss death ball.
I really wish I played terran so I could test that out myself. As it is, I play protoss, so if anyone wants to try to throw 200/200 armies at each other in practice some time, that would be fun. I'm 2.2k diamond so I should be able to put up a good fight.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
I don't understand how you can think this is any sort of argument against the general build being discussed here
there's an early game attack which is rarely seen that would probably be very strong against the opening presented in the OP (an opening which the OP stated was possibly weak and not really the point).
so what point does that make? ... almost anything is weak to something unscouted at a certain point. find me an invincible build and by all means I'll run with it. but to bring up a build that is not common -at all- as some sort of evidence as to the weakness of what the OP is doing is silly.
The point this makes is this build IS weak. I just tried going from 2 gate cyber into double immortal drop, not following a build order, in fact I don't even play protoss. I had the immortals loaded at 8:30 with 1500 minerals and 750 gas banked, with 4 warpgates. Don't tell me you can't improve that . Anyways point is the terran isn't scouting but if the protoss does then the toss just does the drop. This build applies 0 early pressure and 0 scouting. This is the equivalent of going mass voidray I don't see how you think you have to cheese to build this.
You're not getting it. Nobody's talking about this specific build order except you. All we care about is the eventual mech composition. You could 5 rax no gas for the first 10 minutes for all I care, and as long as you eventually transition into mech that would be valid to this discussion. You're trying to tell me that early expanding in TvP is not viable, which is a completely different issue. We're talking about mech here.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
I don't understand how you can think this is any sort of argument against the general build being discussed here
there's an early game attack which is rarely seen that would probably be very strong against the opening presented in the OP (an opening which the OP stated was possibly weak and not really the point).
so what point does that make? ... almost anything is weak to something unscouted at a certain point. find me an invincible build and by all means I'll run with it. but to bring up a build that is not common -at all- as some sort of evidence as to the weakness of what the OP is doing is silly.
The point this makes is this build IS weak. I just tried going from 2 gate cyber into double immortal drop, not following a build order, in fact I don't even play protoss. I had the immortals loaded at 8:30 with 1500 minerals and 750 gas banked, with 4 warpgates. Don't tell me you can't improve that . Anyways point is the terran isn't scouting but if the protoss does then the toss just does the drop. This build applies 0 early pressure and 0 scouting. This is the equivalent of going mass voidray I don't see how you think you have to cheese to beat this.
Okay I'll settle this once and for all. Watch the game against OrangeApples. He goes for a warp Prism drop at right around the timing you mentioned. Now it wasn't a 2 immortal drop it ended up being 1 stalker i picked off for free but if you notice. I pull 6 marines and 1 tank while leaving my base very well defended at the front. 6 marines 1 tank and a few SCV's pulled off the line are enough to handle 2 immortals. You'll take damage but the result will be most costly to himt han you assuming you get his Immortals and Warp Prism. btw you'll note that i already have turrets up in time to stop that i just had poor turret placement in that game. Done. No point in discussing this anymore just talk about Mech in general and not the weaknesses of the standard and flexible 1 rax FE.
I'm not trying to flame anyone, I'm trying to tell you that you simply cannot safely transition to this many tanks, factories, upgrades, ect. unless you are at a major advantage, in which case this wouldn't matter much. The only time I see this being a possible transition is on 4+ bases in which case air units are easily obtainable. I'm by no means a very high level player, but you don't see high level players doing some kind of 20 minute push as their first push as I've seen in one of these replays. Tell me, if both players are constantly trading armies, and all of a sudden you drop 10 factories and get research and all that stuff, who do you think will have a smaller army right there.
In the replay with Orangeapples he drops one stalker on your cliff and you kill it at 14 minutes. Considering he dropped one stalker and you have tanks and marines, you blind countered him. Since you play terran, do you usually drop one marauder at 14 minutes in and expect it do any major damage? Any early pressure will melt this build, and sustained pressure will melt mech.
Talking about mech in general, yes its very very strong. In fact, a huge mech army should wreck anything. But you would be better of with an air ball with all that money. Ravens, BCs, and vikings are more versatile IMO and you can transition from marine/viking to them.
the only real problem are void and in late game carrier, on the ground tanks(when u reach 15/20) can annihilate any units in one second... another thing that is really important to do is to upgrade firepower, mech benefit too much from these upgrades
also you must have a good number of tanks really fast(about 15 in 12/13min), sou can push him hard
On December 30 2010 20:26 Garmer wrote: the only real problem are void and in late game carrier, on the ground tanks(when u reach 15/20) can annihilate any units in one second... another thing that is really important to do is to upgrade firepower, mech benefit too much from these upgrades
also you must have a good number of tanks really fast(about 15 in 12/13min), sou can push him hard
You pretty much need 200/200 mech to be able to push vs protoss or you will get plowed over due to the absence of spidermines in sc2, which was pretty much the only thing that made timing pushes viable in bw. 200/200 tank/hellion/viking is strong as hell though and pretty much annihliates any protoss ground army.
Carriers are pretty hard to counter though, which wouldnt be the case if terran had goliaths instead of vikings so you wouldnt have to choose between anti-ground and anti-air. Carriers are fully counterable if you scout them early though
i wonder if there are just no thread or whatever but biomech seems to be the best build for me. and im not talking about 1factory or 2factory biomech but 3/4rax 4/5factory 1/2starports biomech with MMM tank hellion ghost viking, thats really good combo that can counter everything (even P air). i've had a great succes with it and with MMM you dont have to be worried about blink stalkers abusing your tank immobility and with marines/vikings (perhaps even thors) to counter protoss air.
basically i go reactor marine expand into 1 or 2 factory (tanks or hellions), add more rax so im on about 3rax 2fact or 4rax 1fact on 2 base and take 3rd quickly, play defensively, onnce im on 3base i get ghosts and more factories and aim for deadly 200/200 push with combo mentioned above
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
You should probably watch the replays considering Jade was the protoss and I was talking about the weakness of this build. Second off, how would this work lategame when a stargate is almost guaranteed.
imo its a good thing if you force a toss into spending a lot of gas on stargate units since they are much weaker/easier to deal than HT's/colossus.
Im a 3000 random player and in my tvp matchups i usually go for an thor expand into mass mech. This sounds a bit unusual but it works quite well against everything. You have your expo building at around 6:30 and youre safe against all kind of pushes like voidrays or 4 gate. if you scout him goging voidrays just add a couple of vikings cause of the mobility of the thors. In midgame you can transition into normal tank thor hellion and while youre expanding all across the map always try to drop hellions or just go for the run-by.
I've got a replay against a 3k protoss player who tries to counter the mech with mass speedrays:
On December 30 2010 16:10 Raiznhell wrote: Howdy TL, there was a TvP Terran point of view thread that became 32 pages of constant brainstorming that turned into whining about HTs Warp-ins and other things and I suggested going Mech and a lot of people demanded replays of me going Mech so here I have 10 games of me Meching and winning against Toss.
Things to note:
I am NOT a good player by any means. I don't play very often and I'm only 1600-1700ish Diamond but everyone I play against is 1600-2400 for some reason because the matchmaking system is messed. That being said I am bad and still won against some pretty decent players so that defends the strategy and any criticisms you can note for the toss player i probably played worse so don't just be like well he didn't do this at this time because, I didn't do anything right by any good player's point of view lol.
Also the replay against jade a 2200 toss made me giggle.
In all these replays I do a 1 Rax reactor expand because I had this gut feeling for a long time that it defended against the 4 gate strategy. Turns out if done properly there is a key timing at roughly the 6:30 to 7 minute mark where even just a chronoed 3 gate pressure can bust you before you expand and get up the bunkers.
SO putting a bunker down at the 6 minute mark will keep you safe from the 4 gate. Had to find that out the hard way myself. You will unfortunately be contained until you get 1 or 2 tanks with siege out but Meh he 4 gated so expanding a lil late won't hurt anyways.
Also this is just the opening I do there's probably numerous ways to go about opening like a Siege expand or 2 fact i just prefer the really fast expo. This is just for anyone of you players who feel bold enough to attempt this kind of strategy.
Usually when I'd lose during this strat it would either be because I just did something terrible or I didn't scout VR tech switch in time or that key 6 min timing before i realized i should put down a bunker (which is the openings fault not Mech). Most of the time the trade off in the battles in all these games were extremely cost effective in my favor.
Key things I aim for (but don't always achieve cuz I screwed up or something): +2 weapons upgrades on the vehicles. Tanks demolish anything armored as soon as they are in range meaning Stalkers and Collossi in particular. Immortals last a bit long but with the bunker marines and the hellions their shields don't last too long to be troublesome usually unless it's a very good Immortal/Zlot timing. Also this upgrade makes it easier to snipe HTs.
Harassment with Hellions. I don't make use of this often cuz I'm not amazing but keep harassment on your mind. Also they make for the best type of scouting as well as being used for HT or Zlot hunting parties. Often I'll find a troop of Zlots away from the main army and i can just pick them off for free.
Also don't start getting super super aggressive until you get you're third (unless you can find a timing I'm too dense to discover) and before being aggressive have like 7 factories, 3 barracks reactored and 3 starports reactored. Bewilders them how fast you re-mass.
I know 98% of you won't ever do this kind of play even after seeing these reps cuz this is not how the pros play but this is just my kind of proof that no strategy should be completely undo-able unless maybe you're pro level because Starcraft 2 is just so much more flavorful that the basically solved BW was. There's just so many more factors to think about and use.
Unfortunately I'm gunna have to go back to doin MMM now so people won't blind counter me or something on Bnet :/. lol
phoenix + stalker immortal collossus pvp death ball would do pretty well i think. mass phoenix can drive-by lift half the tank line and they dont need to be lifted long, just long enough for everything else to melt to the death ball. tanks by themselves arent scary
Half way through the replays and LOVING it. Couple of points though.
1. I'm wondering why you don't get a single radar in any of these games. I'm not saying rush the radar but there are plenty of spots where you can squeeze them in and it gives you great warning on drops and pushes. The real reason I mention this is because with mech / bunker play pulling scv's to repair in time against against big pushes are so key. Xel naga gives you some vision but if they pull a good flank it helps you react for a very cheap cost. Seems like the perfect compliment to the turtle / immoblity of the mech build.
2. Cloaked Ghosts. The one area I think you could benefit is ghost play. I love using ghosts and usually try to mix them into my bio armies because the production is right there. But one extra tech rax for rine upgrades and ghosts would be an awesome addition at the 2-3 base position.
I get the feeling that once they see all the tanks they need immortals which slows obs production. You pick them off with scans & turrets constantly so cloaked ghosts should have freedom to move unseen. It would make little sense for them to get photon cannons when you are going to tank push anyway. All of the above should give you free reign in ghost play.
Plus's / uses of ghosts in your buiild:
Emp: Not only does it just work great in general against toss for the normal weakening of the army. It solves some of your problems when pushing. Mobile stealth detection. Use it to nuke DT's or obs while getting up towers. If you have cloaked ghosts as spotters for your army you can micro and focus the immortals. 100 shield drop is enough to remove thier anti-tank capability. They have obvious uses against HT. I have seen a lot of archon play against you and they are all shields no hp. Double EMP rocks them in clusters. If they try to counter with void rays you can pop a group to make them run or make them easier to pick off with your vikings until you can get more reactor starports up.
Nuke: 2 nukes will kill gateways and robos. Nukes are great because when you are maxed at 200/200 you are able to keep firing off shots. Drop 2-3 cloaked ghosts in a toss base while he's dealing with your tank line and drop two nukes on his cluster production and its pretty much GG. You can use nukes well at the front line with all that tank / rine / hellion defense.
Worker harass. 2 ghosts 1 shot probes. 2 full energy ghosts have a lot of invis time to do some worker blasting.
Auto Attack: The ghosts do 20 vs light. So in the later stages of the game they add a sizable dps boost against chargelots.
i think for this build the best open is the thor, or hellion drop, with the thor he cant do any kinda of rush, with the hellion fast drop, u put some pressure to the main, then it's the turn to make a transition to tank/hellion/thor or viking
I'm loving the positivity regarding Mech in this thread, gj!
In a game where synergy between units is key I am beginning to see how Terran building upgrades compliment a mech style of play with marines in bunkers.
+1 turret range. Makes you safer against Vrays and ensures Obs can't spot for P.
+2 building armour. Makes your free* bunkers even harder to kill with low damage units (Zealot, stalker etc.) which is good because the less time the heavy hitters are shooting at your tanks the better. Affects P forts which are a good area denial structure to build after max.
+2 space in bunkers. Would probably get this second but a bunker full with 6 marines is nothing to be ignored. Now factor in that I would have multiple bunkers full as well as stim and we have a very nice static defense which shoots air too!
There appears to be a nice synergy between Mech units, the Terrans buildings and the SCV's which build your fortifications and heal your units. As Terran we should be changing the battlefield to suit our style of play. Because meching is so gas heavy we have the spare minerals to spend on buildings to compliment out stratergy. Turrets, Bunkers, Pforts, marines and Ebays all only require minerals, which we have excess of because of our sweet MULE macro mechanic.
Also get ghosts, as many as you can afford (6-10).
Oooooh I feel like double Armourys and a fast third would be clutch.
A couple of Ravens should be added too as their spells benefit form the Ebay upgrades and PDD is good for area denial from Blink Stalkers.
I also really like the idea of smashing down 3 reactor starports if you suspect a transition to Carriers. I mean Goliaths weren't really great against Carriers untill they were in greater numbers. Perhaps the same logic can be applied to their spiritual successor.
Multiple blue flame Hellion drops work wonders the longer the game goes on and the more spread out the Protoss gets. Nuke harass also brings a big banana grim to my face.
The great thing about this style is that it can be so gas heavy but that doesn't really matter because it's great at holding expansions and controling space.
These were just some ideas about synergy in the Terran army I have been mulling over. Hope we can get a Mech revolution going! Right, now I'm inspired to get home from work, dust off Avilos' old Ghost Mech guide and make a few modifications.
I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this. Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
Wow, it's ServyOa. You rock, dude. Thanks for posting.
I think I see where you're coming from, but I would love to see some replays for clarification. The main parts I can't really see happening are:
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote:Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it.
Can you really completely nullify hellion drops with building placement? I'd love to see that.
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote:They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push ... By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over.
Perhaps there are some earlier pushes you can do to prevent this situation. I'd really like to see a replay where Toss prevents pushes/hellions harass but is still able to get that baller economy up.
I'm using mech again for a week now and my results are great: I only lost against lategame voidrays which I didn't scout. One protoss went mass immortals but he attacked with them in 1 big clump. I emped and I lost maximum 3 tanks. But: it's like servy says, if toss knows you are meching you will lose if he knows what to do.
On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote: One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily
I hope you're not suggesting blink stalkers going head-to-head against the siege tanks, because they can blink in and out all they want, but they'll still get eaten alive by tank fire.
Blink stalkers as harass would be a big problem against the immobility of siege tanks, but you could probably swap out 1 or 2 of the factories for some rax to deal with any of that.
Of course a protoss would use the blink stalkers for harass to abuse the immobility of a mech army,Especially since a toss could get blink before the terran could get a decent amount of tanks. Timing is key here. and also by the way, Blinking into tanks is just stupid.
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote: I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this. Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
I do get that you're a pro and all and are overall more experienced than me and such but i have a hard time believing that is toss knows you're Meching you're dead just cuz in BW you were 90% sure as a toss player T was probably going to do a siege expand or and FD and go mass tank and vulture and yet knowing that that was going to happen the terran was still able to win using vulture/tank.
But my build i do a 1 rax FE which leaves plenty of room to bunker rush or apply early pressure if i scout that he not only early expanded but double expanded. I get my 4 factories up so fast after the FE kicks in that it just seems like it'd be easy to push with the first 3-4 tanks a huge group of marines and hellions and take out his second expo. Also if protoss drops 4 robo and goes immortals that just seems super weak to an already marine/ hellion filled army that adding even 1 ghost would wreck the toss's day.
As for stargate well that was the weakness of vulture tank in BW and hence you pumped out a lot of Goliaths this is why i have 3 reator starports to get a ton of vikings and in any game where i knew he was going immediately for the air tech i would probably go for starport instead of extra factories.
But i dunno. ill have to get higher on the ladder and face much tougher players.
It just feels like it wouldn't be as ridiculously easy to counter as said cuz in BW you knew every TvP that terran was going to turtle, FE and mass tanks(which didn't have smart fire) and despite getting shuttles, reaver dropping, dt dropping, zlot bombing, arbiters, carriers. terran could still win TvP in BW. I mean to all the player's i faced in this it should have been ridiculously obvious early early on in all the games that i was meching some of them even got observers in my base without me noticing and yet they still couldn't win. Some did if i failed at scouting and missed his VR tech switch but that's my failure not mechs.
Regardless of how many times you attempt to explain non believers will be nonbelievers.
On December 30 2010 16:10 Raiznhell wrote: I am NOT a good player by any means. I don't play very often and I'm only 1600-1700ish Diamond but everyone I play against is 1600-2400 for some reason because the matchmaking system is messed. That being said I am bad and still won against some pretty decent players so that defends the strategy and any criticisms you can note for the toss player i probably played worse so don't just be like well he didn't do this at this time because, I didn't do anything right by any good player's point of view lol.
Sure mech has its weakness but so does bio. Just because mech is weak against some things doesnt mean you can't account for these possiblities when you play.
As a toss player, please make this viable! I want to be able to scout a T going mech then go straight for carriers, as it'll finally give them a use ^^.
Mech sounds alright, and of course it's viable; it's very annoying to see people throw the few cons of the build, as if there are any 'perfect' or 'flawless' builds that exist. The lack of spidermines do make this much more harder though :/. Call me crazy, I know this is all theory craft.. But Terran's peak of mobility in this strat is usage of hellions and perhaps dropship marines. I don't know what that can solve, but it'd be great to see Mech make a big comeback.
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote: I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this. Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
I do get that you're a pro and all and are overall more experienced than me and such but i have a hard time believing that is toss knows you're Meching you're dead just cuz in BW you were 90% sure as a toss player T was probably going to do a siege expand or and FD and go mass tank and vulture and yet knowing that that was going to happen the terran was still able to win using vulture/tank.
But my build i do a 1 rax FE which leaves plenty of room to bunker rush or apply early pressure if i scout that he not only early expanded but double expanded. I get my 4 factories up so fast after the FE kicks in that it just seems like it'd be easy to push with the first 3-4 tanks a huge group of marines and hellions and take out his second expo. Also if protoss drops 4 robo and goes immortals that just seems super weak to an already marine/ hellion filled army that adding even 1 ghost would wreck the toss's day.
As for stargate well that was the weakness of vulture tank in BW and hence you pumped out a lot of Goliaths this is why i have 3 reator starports to get a ton of vikings and in any game where i knew he was going immediately for the air tech i would probably go for starport instead of extra factories.
But i dunno. ill have to get higher on the ladder and face much tougher players.
It just feels like it wouldn't be as ridiculously easy to counter as said cuz in BW you knew every TvP that terran was going to turtle, FE and mass tanks(which didn't have smart fire) and despite getting shuttles, reaver dropping, dt dropping, zlot bombing, arbiters, carriers. terran could still win TvP in BW. I mean to all the player's i faced in this it should have been ridiculously obvious early early on in all the games that i was meching some of them even got observers in my base without me noticing and yet they still couldn't win. Some did if i failed at scouting and missed his VR tech switch but that's my failure not mechs.
BW is a different game you cant compare them imo, mech in sc2 is weaker and protoss has alot better counters to it than in BW. Tanks did 70 + 5 damage in BW and spider mines and vultures were kickass. Also you had scanners and together with mines and vulutre roaming arround it was alot easyer to see what is going on and keep a toss at bay. Also goliaths and tanks/vultures had the same upgrades, unlike vikings/mech in SC2 wich is HUGE this is absolutly a killer blow to mech that you need 2 sets of upgrades for your only anty air. On top of that you need starports for vikings wich is another super exspensive tech route to get .
Anyway this is my experience why it doesnt work, if it works for you thers no reason not to do it especialy when you think its more fun.
On December 30 2010 16:10 Raiznhell wrote: I am NOT a good player by any means. I don't play very often and I'm only 1600-1700ish Diamond but everyone I play against is 1600-2400 for some reason because the matchmaking system is messed. That being said I am bad and still won against some pretty decent players so that defends the strategy and any criticisms you can note for the toss player i probably played worse so don't just be like well he didn't do this at this time because, I didn't do anything right by any good player's point of view lol.
Sure mech has its weakness but so does bio. Just because mech is weak against some things doesnt mean you can't account for these possiblities when you play.
I guess i am being misleading with this but I by no means think that Mech should be the new standard for TvP.
It's just so much easier for those abusive stim pushes to work and even if they don't and in the late game bio is weak head on against toss armies, but the ability to be everywhere at once with the drops and such and stim is too strong for the pro level not to do.
The reason I mech and am showing these is because i see a lot of low level bronze through to mid diamond calling all these strategies stupid and pointless just cuz the pros use bio and if they don't win in the first 15 minutes then all these people say it's imbalanced well no that's the sacrifice you made going bio in my eyes is that you wanted to win early but you didn't so at that point you're kind of paying the price.
Point is these low levels shouldn't be calling any strategy stupid because clearly in these replays Mech worked. Me and my opponents aren't the best players in the world but watch the replays they are definitely better players than me and i still beat them. Mech fits my slow pushing style I find my strength is in my patience not by ability to stim, kite and be up in his face. my style of slowly approaching them forces them into attacking ME on MY terms.
Bio is and always will be stronger in TvP because you never have to stay put your always moving (or should be). It's just i have more fun when i play Mech style and if i can win with it why not use it.
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote: I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this. Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
I do get that you're a pro and all and are overall more experienced than me and such but i have a hard time believing that is toss knows you're Meching you're dead just cuz in BW you were 90% sure as a toss player T was probably going to do a siege expand or and FD and go mass tank and vulture and yet knowing that that was going to happen the terran was still able to win using vulture/tank.
But my build i do a 1 rax FE which leaves plenty of room to bunker rush or apply early pressure if i scout that he not only early expanded but double expanded. I get my 4 factories up so fast after the FE kicks in that it just seems like it'd be easy to push with the first 3-4 tanks a huge group of marines and hellions and take out his second expo. Also if protoss drops 4 robo and goes immortals that just seems super weak to an already marine/ hellion filled army that adding even 1 ghost would wreck the toss's day.
As for stargate well that was the weakness of vulture tank in BW and hence you pumped out a lot of Goliaths this is why i have 3 reator starports to get a ton of vikings and in any game where i knew he was going immediately for the air tech i would probably go for starport instead of extra factories.
But i dunno. ill have to get higher on the ladder and face much tougher players.
It just feels like it wouldn't be as ridiculously easy to counter as said cuz in BW you knew every TvP that terran was going to turtle, FE and mass tanks(which didn't have smart fire) and despite getting shuttles, reaver dropping, dt dropping, zlot bombing, arbiters, carriers. terran could still win TvP in BW. I mean to all the player's i faced in this it should have been ridiculously obvious early early on in all the games that i was meching some of them even got observers in my base without me noticing and yet they still couldn't win. Some did if i failed at scouting and missed his VR tech switch but that's my failure not mechs.
BW is a different game you cant compare them imo, mech in sc2 is weaker and protoss has alot better counters to it than in BW. Tanks did 70 + 5 damage in BW and spider mines and vultures were kickass. Also you had scanners and together with mines and vulutre roaming arround it was alot easyer to see what is going on and keep a toss at bay. Also goliaths and tanks/vultures had the same upgrades, unlike vikings/mech in SC2 wich is HUGE this is absolutly a killer blow to mech that you need 2 sets of upgrades for your only anty air. On top of that you need starports for vikings wich is another super exspensive tech route to get .
Anyway this is my experience why it doesnt work, if it works for you thers no reason not to do it especialy when you think its more fun.
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote: By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
So what can a meching Terran do to a Protoss to prevent this build up of units? What do you do?
Some sort of harass but all I can think of is taking out clusters of warpgates to prevent warp-in-madness.
Any more words from pro's about mech would be really helpful and greatly appreciated.
On December 31 2010 04:24 terranghost wrote: Regardless of how many times you attempt to explain non believers will be nonbelievers.
On December 30 2010 16:10 Raiznhell wrote: I am NOT a good player by any means. I don't play very often and I'm only 1600-1700ish Diamond but everyone I play against is 1600-2400 for some reason because the matchmaking system is messed. That being said I am bad and still won against some pretty decent players so that defends the strategy and any criticisms you can note for the toss player i probably played worse so don't just be like well he didn't do this at this time because, I didn't do anything right by any good player's point of view lol.
Sure mech has its weakness but so does bio. Just because mech is weak against some things doesnt mean you can't account for these possiblities when you play.
I guess i am being misleading with this but I by no means think that Mech should be the new standard for TvP.
It's just so much easier for those abusive stim pushes to work and even if they don't and in the late game bio is weak head on against toss armies, but the ability to be everywhere at once with the drops and such and stim is too strong for the pro level not to do.
The reason I mech and am showing these is because i see a lot of low level bronze through to mid diamond calling all these strategies stupid and pointless just cuz the pros use bio and if they don't win in the first 15 minutes then all these people say it's imbalanced well no that's the sacrifice you made going bio in my eyes is that you wanted to win early but you didn't so at that point you're kind of paying the price.
Point is these low levels shouldn't be calling any strategy stupid because clearly in these replays Mech worked. Me and my opponents aren't the best players in the world but watch the replays they are definitely better players than me and i still beat them. Mech fits my slow pushing style I find my strength is in my patience not by ability to stim, kite and be up in his face. my style of slowly approaching them forces them into attacking ME on MY terms.
Bio is and always will be stronger in TvP because you never have to stay put your always moving (or should be). It's just i have more fun when i play Mech style and if i can win with it why not use it.
O don't get me wrong I enjoy mech play alot more too. Just commentary for all those other people saying o yea but mech is weak against build x or composition y. Sure mech is weak against those but the toss isn't the only one who knows that )
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote: I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this. Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
I do get that you're a pro and all and are overall more experienced than me and such but i have a hard time believing that is toss knows you're Meching you're dead just cuz in BW you were 90% sure as a toss player T was probably going to do a siege expand or and FD and go mass tank and vulture and yet knowing that that was going to happen the terran was still able to win using vulture/tank.
But my build i do a 1 rax FE which leaves plenty of room to bunker rush or apply early pressure if i scout that he not only early expanded but double expanded. I get my 4 factories up so fast after the FE kicks in that it just seems like it'd be easy to push with the first 3-4 tanks a huge group of marines and hellions and take out his second expo. Also if protoss drops 4 robo and goes immortals that just seems super weak to an already marine/ hellion filled army that adding even 1 ghost would wreck the toss's day.
As for stargate well that was the weakness of vulture tank in BW and hence you pumped out a lot of Goliaths this is why i have 3 reator starports to get a ton of vikings and in any game where i knew he was going immediately for the air tech i would probably go for starport instead of extra factories.
But i dunno. ill have to get higher on the ladder and face much tougher players.
It just feels like it wouldn't be as ridiculously easy to counter as said cuz in BW you knew every TvP that terran was going to turtle, FE and mass tanks(which didn't have smart fire) and despite getting shuttles, reaver dropping, dt dropping, zlot bombing, arbiters, carriers. terran could still win TvP in BW. I mean to all the player's i faced in this it should have been ridiculously obvious early early on in all the games that i was meching some of them even got observers in my base without me noticing and yet they still couldn't win. Some did if i failed at scouting and missed his VR tech switch but that's my failure not mechs.
BW is a different game you cant compare them imo, mech in sc2 is weaker and protoss has alot better counters to it than in BW. Tanks did 70 + 5 damage in BW and spider mines and vultures were kickass. Also you had scanners and together with mines and vulutre roaming arround it was alot easyer to see what is going on and keep a toss at bay. Also goliaths and tanks/vultures had the same upgrades, unlike vikings/mech in SC2 wich is HUGE this is absolutly a killer blow to mech that you need 2 sets of upgrades for your only anty air. On top of that you need starports for vikings wich is another super exspensive tech route to get .
Anyway this is my experience why it doesnt work, if it works for you thers no reason not to do it especialy when you think its more fun.
Not to sound like an ass but IMHO zealots worked out alot better against tanks in BW than in SC2. Imagine fighting tank lines in BW with zealots without the speed upgrade... It would suck. Chargelots in SC2 are basically slowlots from BW accept they gain the leg enhancement upgrade after they have been bombarded on from range 13 and still had to slowly walk towards the tanks so their increased movment does go off. Zealots in BW could make vultures work against the terran meaning all it took is one hero lot from the group to have a couple of mines chasing him for it to spell instant doom for any small group of terran units. Also in SC2 keep in mind that zealot speed (charge) has a 10sec cooldown (which in game speed is probably closer to 7 sec but whatever) If the zealots on attack move happen to see a bunker or hellion pop forward then the charge will stop on these things giving the tanks more time to shell away at them. Lastly, Tanks in BW (like the ones in sc2) did 35 damage to zealots. This however was more of a penalty in BW because if you had an army of 20 tanks and 10 of them shot at one zealot 5 shot at another and 5 shot at another this would be 3 zealots dead (+ maybe some more that were near the one that was attacked by 10 tanks). This is significant overkill allowing the rest of the army to be basically in firing range by the time the tanks reloaded.
There are somethings that worked with mech better in BW however on the same token there somethings about mech that work better in sc2.
IMO i don't like the whole balance idea thing but for mech to actually become a standard it would take 3 things. 3 things that if implemented would cause TvZ imbalance i would think.
1) their damage. it would need to be 55 vs armored instead of 50 cuz then you really only have to wait till +1 weapons to be able to start your advance. 2) their cost. 100 gas i think would need to be necessary as right now every 4 tanks is the same gas as a potential 5 BW tanks. 3) their supply. 3 supply what with also needing the marines and hellions for support. as mentioned before the games i posted weren't 200 vs 200 supply (this I did not notice) maybe i did steamroll them with just better macro so perhaps equal supply vs equal supply the 3 supply of tanks would take up too much space and there wouldn't be enough tanks.
all these i think would make TvZ imbalance what with the Roach also being 2 supply (not that it's smart to use roaches in TvZ anyways) but yeah just my opinion on what it would take for there ever to be a "Standard" Pro level TvP Mech play.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
You should probably watch the replays considering Jade was the protoss and I was talking about the weakness of this build. Second off, how would this work lategame when a stargate is almost guaranteed.
I thought in the first game he ended up getting a ton of vikings. Not sure just sped thru the replay but I think that's how it would be handled. I don't care what people think, but this is an awesome way to play TvP. Mech, it's pretty cool. I don't think anything else really matters.
On December 31 2010 07:52 Raiznhell wrote: IMO i don't like the whole balance idea thing but for mech to actually become a standard it would take 3 things. 3 things that if implemented would cause TvZ imbalance i would think.
1) their damage. it would need to be 55 vs armored instead of 50 cuz then you really only have to wait till +1 weapons to be able to start your advance. 2) their cost. 100 gas i think would need to be necessary as right now every 4 tanks is the same gas as a potential 5 BW tanks. 3) their supply. 3 supply what with also needing the marines and hellions for support. as mentioned before the games i posted weren't 200 vs 200 supply (this I did not notice) maybe i did steamroll them with just better macro so perhaps equal supply vs equal supply the 3 supply of tanks would take up too much space and there wouldn't be enough tanks.
all these i think would make TvZ imbalance what with the Roach also being 2 supply (not that it's smart to use roaches in TvZ anyways) but yeah just my opinion on what it would take for there ever to be a "Standard" Pro level TvP Mech play.
Thats the issue i think BLizz is facing with Mech. If the buff it then it may imbalence TvZ. Then Zergs will really need Dark Swarm.
On December 31 2010 07:52 Raiznhell wrote: IMO i don't like the whole balance idea thing but for mech to actually become a standard it would take 3 things. 3 things that if implemented would cause TvZ imbalance i would think.
1) their damage. it would need to be 55 vs armored instead of 50 cuz then you really only have to wait till +1 weapons to be able to start your advance. 2) their cost. 100 gas i think would need to be necessary as right now every 4 tanks is the same gas as a potential 5 BW tanks. 3) their supply. 3 supply what with also needing the marines and hellions for support. as mentioned before the games i posted weren't 200 vs 200 supply (this I did not notice) maybe i did steamroll them with just better macro so perhaps equal supply vs equal supply the 3 supply of tanks would take up too much space and there wouldn't be enough tanks.
all these i think would make TvZ imbalance what with the Roach also being 2 supply (not that it's smart to use roaches in TvZ anyways) but yeah just my opinion on what it would take for there ever to be a "Standard" Pro level TvP Mech play.
I don't think the Tank nerf was what balanced ZvT. Tanks own roaches just as hard with 50dmg as they did with 60. The discovery of "magic box" and the roach +1 range was the key i think.
I think what makes mech weak in TvP is that every single stargate unit hard counters mech in one way or another.
The 3 supply cost i think is fair due to the smarter AI but, Protoss just looks designed to fight mech. With charge, blink, immortals,all stargate units, archons, even colossus with it's high mobility... almost any tech choice is viable for Protoss.
I'd like to see Phoenixs not able to lift sieged up Tanks for a start. Who knows what it would take to have mech as standard TvP?! I just hope Blizz wants it to happen and are working on it
Wow, this build's really cool. Even though I'm protoss, I been playing off-race to understand timings and such, and this build looks really hard to stop. I like this build because it's very similar to 1 Gate FE, and I really never knew that you can support 3-5 factories off 2 base. Looks like we can thank the mules.
edit: Wow, I just noticed how these diamonds players are bad, though. I only watched two, but one cannoned rush into 4 gate and the other just 4 gated. The latter 4 gated despite being in cross positions.. Wow. I despise them.
Ive actually been going alot of Marine/Tank/Banchee play in TvP recently. IF they four gate i like to try to throw in some thors as well, unless i start seeing immortals then ill try to go marine heavy if they are getting collousus ill throw some vikings in but mainly banchee/tank/marine. I like to start with a 2 port banchee haevy harass/contain that will some time end the game right there if they 4 gated with no detection then expand behind that will throwing up 2 more rax and factoires. Along with an armory and eng bay. Then just get center map control use banchees plus contain to keep him on 2 base and when he finally pushes out you should be able to easy crush it with bunkers/marine/seige tanks/turrents/cloack banchees/ a couple ravens and medivacs then it should be gg.
On December 31 2010 07:52 Raiznhell wrote: IMO i don't like the whole balance idea thing but for mech to actually become a standard it would take 3 things. 3 things that if implemented would cause TvZ imbalance i would think.
1) their damage. it would need to be 55 vs armored instead of 50 cuz then you really only have to wait till +1 weapons to be able to start your advance. 2) their cost. 100 gas i think would need to be necessary as right now every 4 tanks is the same gas as a potential 5 BW tanks. 3) their supply. 3 supply what with also needing the marines and hellions for support. as mentioned before the games i posted weren't 200 vs 200 supply (this I did not notice) maybe i did steamroll them with just better macro so perhaps equal supply vs equal supply the 3 supply of tanks would take up too much space and there wouldn't be enough tanks.
all these i think would make TvZ imbalance what with the Roach also being 2 supply (not that it's smart to use roaches in TvZ anyways) but yeah just my opinion on what it would take for there ever to be a "Standard" Pro level TvP Mech play.
I don't think the Tank nerf was what balanced ZvT. Tanks own roaches just as hard with 50dmg as they did with 60. The discovery of "magic box" and the roach +1 range was the key i think.
I think what makes mech weak in TvP is that every single stargate unit hard counters mech in one way or another.
The 3 supply cost i think is fair due to the smarter AI but, Protoss just looks designed to fight mech. With charge, blink, immortals,all stargate units, archons, even colossus with it's high mobility... almost any tech choice is viable for Protoss.
I'd like to see Phoenixs not able to lift sieged up Tanks for a start. Who knows what it would take to have mech as standard TvP?! I just hope Blizz wants it to happen and are working on it
Thats why pure mech doesn't work. But note that every "hard counter" to mech is also "Hard countered" by marines
Marines solve the following: The parenthesis shows what you'll need if you opt to not get Marines
Add some Vikings and your Marine Tank Viking ball look pretty strong. The only thing you have to worry about are templar. Which can be dealt with by using the vikings to spot and focus firing with tanks. Or making a few hellions to snipe the HT.
I kind of do this, but transition to Thors after I have upgrades so I can go in for the kill. I also drop on expos to keep my opponent as weak as possible.
Carriers are the anti tank late game though...if they go carriers you're screwed.
On December 31 2010 07:52 Raiznhell wrote: IMO i don't like the whole balance idea thing but for mech to actually become a standard it would take 3 things. 3 things that if implemented would cause TvZ imbalance i would think.
1) their damage. it would need to be 55 vs armored instead of 50 cuz then you really only have to wait till +1 weapons to be able to start your advance. 2) their cost. 100 gas i think would need to be necessary as right now every 4 tanks is the same gas as a potential 5 BW tanks. 3) their supply. 3 supply what with also needing the marines and hellions for support. as mentioned before the games i posted weren't 200 vs 200 supply (this I did not notice) maybe i did steamroll them with just better macro so perhaps equal supply vs equal supply the 3 supply of tanks would take up too much space and there wouldn't be enough tanks.
all these i think would make TvZ imbalance what with the Roach also being 2 supply (not that it's smart to use roaches in TvZ anyways) but yeah just my opinion on what it would take for there ever to be a "Standard" Pro level TvP Mech play.
I don't think the Tank nerf was what balanced ZvT. Tanks own roaches just as hard with 50dmg as they did with 60. The discovery of "magic box" and the roach +1 range was the key i think.
I think what makes mech weak in TvP is that every single stargate unit hard counters mech in one way or another.
The 3 supply cost i think is fair due to the smarter AI but, Protoss just looks designed to fight mech. With charge, blink, immortals,all stargate units, archons, even colossus with it's high mobility... almost any tech choice is viable for Protoss.
I'd like to see Phoenixs not able to lift sieged up Tanks for a start. Who knows what it would take to have mech as standard TvP?! I just hope Blizz wants it to happen and are working on it
Thats why pure mech doesn't work. But note that every "hard counter" to mech is also "Hard countered" by marines
Marines solve the following: The parenthesis shows what you'll need if you opt to not get Marines
Add some Vikings and your Marine Tank Viking ball look pretty strong. The only thing you have to worry about are templar. Which can be dealt with by using the vikings to spot and focus firing with tanks. Or making a few hellions to snipe the HT.
No matter what you do. Your gonna need marines.
I know, that is why mech does not work :p Not gona go in to it but this is why some other threads about mech got out of hand. You need marines and in late game carrier/ HT owns.
Meh.. the game is young and many things will change along the way. I am glad other people experiment with mech because i do to. Looking forward to the -10sec Phoenix build time
I used to exclusively ghost mech TvP ages ago...but I scrapped that when it turned out to not be viable anymore. A combination of protosses getting much better at this game, and the patch completely killed tank based mech.
Every time you do it, just like serv said, toss takes a free 4th/5th, and one of those might even be a gold. Then they just go carriers, mass immortal/templar/gates with collosus, and will re-max zerg style and kill you, while you're barely on one maxed out supply limit, and with Terran you cannot reproduce your army instantly, while P can.
So mech if you want to, but from my personal experience it got to the point where I had to ask myself: do I want to play this game for fun and win TvPs like this vs weaker players or do I want to start winning SC2 and get better? The choice was pretty obvious.
So if you play for fun, by all means, keep going for that mech TvP.
Mech TvP works if you play against Protosses that don't know how to beat it. But if they know how to beat it, you really shouldn't win many games at all.
Does terran mech actually work out later? I've faced this build a few times and I'm usually ecstatic as a protoss to face it. My favourite build, chargelot/ht/VR basically kills everything in mech. If you spam marines, i can plant two storms and faceroll them. You get thors, my chargelots will surround them. You get tanks, I'll abuse your lack of mobility, mass expand, and in fights your tanks will do just as much damage to your own army as mine, shooting my lots. VRs are usually for me used as a sudden surprise switch, when they don't have any vikings out. (and with about 3 bases at this point it's hard to scout everything). Banshees against mass hts will get demolished with feedback, and medivacs I don't even need to talk about. If you go standard stalker colossus though you'll get facerolled.
So was wondering. What do you guys think a terran can counter chargelot/ht/vr? Blink stalkers I don't ever usually have to pull out (only if they're literally spamming tanks and trying to turtle their asses off), but it's not like it's at all off of my tech tree. Even mass marauder doesn't do good against chargelots. Chargelots frankly own everything in mech, except marines (which are used just because they don't need gas), and banshees. But hts kill this, and VR masses are such an end game force. (Frankly they're just the finishing blow)
---- EDIT: I used to think the only counter was an early banshee rush, but I've changed my build to go standard up to 2 gate robo because otherwise you'll just always die to it. I take out my first obs, check for banshee rush, then I get warp prisms if turtle.
well in my eyes the main counter to Mech is basically the same thing that's demolishing other strategies which is HT carrier. I'm finding the combo tough to but you're going to regardless cuz HTs and Carriers are just AMAZING units.
MMM, Banshee marine, Banshee thor, tank based Mech. hell even just mass viking banshee you will always find HTs and Carriers tough as hell. Although however easier it is to storm or micro carriers i still am not convinced it's very imba.
On December 31 2010 11:30 sas911 wrote: Does terran mech actually work out later? I've faced this build a few times and I'm usually ecstatic as a protoss to face it. My favourite build, chargelot/ht/VR basically kills everything in mech. If you spam marines, i can plant two storms and faceroll them. You get thors, my chargelots will surround them. You get tanks, I'll abuse your lack of mobility, mass expand, and in fights your tanks will do just as much damage to your own army as mine, shooting my lots. VRs are usually for me used as a sudden surprise switch, when they don't have any vikings out. (and with about 3 bases at this point it's hard to scout everything). Banshees against mass hts will get demolished with feedback, and medivacs I don't even need to talk about. If you go standard stalker colossus though you'll get facerolled.
So was wondering. What do you guys think a terran can counter chargelot/ht/vr? Blink stalkers I don't ever usually have to pull out (only if they're literally spamming tanks and trying to turtle their asses off), but it's not like it's at all off of my tech tree. Even mass marauder doesn't do good against chargelots. Chargelots frankly own everything in mech, except marines (which are used just because they don't need gas), and banshees. But hts kill this, and VR masses are such an end game force. (Frankly they're just the finishing blow)
---- EDIT: I used to think the only counter was an early banshee rush, but I've changed my build to go standard up to 2 gate robo because otherwise you'll just always die to it. I take out my first obs, check for banshee rush, then I get warp prisms if turtle.
i was just playing someone who went this and then into a mass carrier at the end i ended up losing but my nooby self had 3k/2k at the end and he had 1k/800 and just lost his 5th expo whereas my 5th expo was still up a running fully saturated and surrounded by turrets with a PF. All that lost it for me was bad end game macro.
On December 31 2010 11:30 sas911 wrote: Does terran mech actually work out later? I've faced this build a few times and I'm usually ecstatic as a protoss to face it. My favourite build, chargelot/ht/VR basically kills everything in mech. If you spam marines, i can plant two storms and faceroll them. You get thors, my chargelots will surround them. You get tanks, I'll abuse your lack of mobility, mass expand, and in fights your tanks will do just as much damage to your own army as mine, shooting my lots. VRs are usually for me used as a sudden surprise switch, when they don't have any vikings out. (and with about 3 bases at this point it's hard to scout everything). Banshees against mass hts will get demolished with feedback, and medivacs I don't even need to talk about. If you go standard stalker colossus though you'll get facerolled.
So was wondering. What do you guys think a terran can counter chargelot/ht/vr? Blink stalkers I don't ever usually have to pull out (only if they're literally spamming tanks and trying to turtle their asses off), but it's not like it's at all off of my tech tree. Even mass marauder doesn't do good against chargelots. Chargelots frankly own everything in mech, except marines (which are used just because they don't need gas), and banshees. But hts kill this, and VR masses are such an end game force. (Frankly they're just the finishing blow)
---- EDIT: I used to think the only counter was an early banshee rush, but I've changed my build to go standard up to 2 gate robo because otherwise you'll just always die to it. I take out my first obs, check for banshee rush, then I get warp prisms if turtle.
I like the Goody mech, marauder/tank/viking openings are solid to defend an expo from a one base attack by the toss give you the chance to be aggressive and practically win vs a 1gate FE. (or at the very least punish the greedy protoss.)
Please note that warpgates dont INSTA warp in units, there is a 5 second warp in time. a few hellions in your probe line can screw it over in that time.
nor does 1 cannon stop 7 hellions. if you focus on hellions>tanks, thats worth it. its like vulture harass in BW. your vultures/hellions can be thrown away (not really thrown away... but dont hurt you that badly?)
On December 31 2010 11:11 avilo wrote: I used to exclusively ghost mech TvP ages ago...but I scrapped that when it turned out to not be viable anymore. A combination of protosses getting much better at this game, and the patch completely killed tank based mech.
Every time you do it, just like serv said, toss takes a free 4th/5th, and one of those might even be a gold. Then they just go carriers, mass immortal/templar/gates with collosus, and will re-max zerg style and kill you, while you're barely on one maxed out supply limit, and with Terran you cannot reproduce your army instantly, while P can.
So mech if you want to, but from my personal experience it got to the point where I had to ask myself: do I want to play this game for fun and win TvPs like this vs weaker players or do I want to start winning SC2 and get better? The choice was pretty obvious.
So if you play for fun, by all means, keep going for that mech TvP.
Avilo I am pretty familiar with your ghost mech. You state that the expansions are the hardest part to deal with. Does this usually mean a toss fast expand? (some people in this thread have noted that toss will attempt this if they know you are meching.) I've encountered problems like this an FE from a protoss is alot harder to hide than a terran's FE. With your ghost mech build it would seem you would notice the FE long before you wanted to put down your factory not to mention your starport. If you notice it what I have been trying to work on is a tank hellion timing attack to discourage toss from FEing. I gain the second 100 gas about the time the factory is about 3/4 done and instead of saving it for a starport I build a second factory. (both gain tech labs) Build tanks when you have the gas and hellions otherwise. Start the blue flame upgrade asap and about 30sec into the research start the siege mode upgrade so they will both finish simultaneously. My push occurs at the moment around the 7:00-7:30 mark (still working on it I think I can do it faster) with 4 tanks/4 hellions/ and about 14-16 marines. I'm no expert with protoss builds but doing a rough protoss build with a gate on 12 and nexus on 14 (probably not optimal but like I said I'm not good with protoss timings) I did nothing but chrono boost probes and both were saturated around the 5:30 mark. You should be able to do some sort of pressure with your marines early on to discourage the constant boosting of probes.
Even if a double factory timing push turns out not to work. Ive been experimenting with goody's marauder/reaper early pressure transition into mech. From what I see standard toss builds have trouble with that pressure so there is not a doubt in my mind that FE would have that problem.
Another transition I use to some sucess if the toss goes for air play is obviously to get alot of marines. I make sure and get a techlab on at least 3 of the raxes I would want to produce infantry from. Once I have the ghost count I want I can produce reapers 3 at a time (for the same price and build time as a ghost) Doing 2 pronged attacks with reapers and hellions seems to keep the toss busy as there are some things that reapers can harass that hellions couldn't dream of harassing.
On December 31 2010 11:11 avilo wrote: I used to exclusively ghost mech TvP ages ago...but I scrapped that when it turned out to not be viable anymore. A combination of protosses getting much better at this game, and the patch completely killed tank based mech.
Every time you do it, just like serv said, toss takes a free 4th/5th, and one of those might even be a gold. Then they just go carriers, mass immortal/templar/gates with collosus, and will re-max zerg style and kill you, while you're barely on one maxed out supply limit, and with Terran you cannot reproduce your army instantly, while P can.
So mech if you want to, but from my personal experience it got to the point where I had to ask myself: do I want to play this game for fun and win TvPs like this vs weaker players or do I want to start winning SC2 and get better? The choice was pretty obvious.
So if you play for fun, by all means, keep going for that mech TvP.
Avilo I am pretty familiar with your ghost mech. You state that the expansions are the hardest part to deal with. Does this usually mean a toss fast expand? (some people in this thread have noted that toss will attempt this if they know you are meching.) I've encountered problems like this an FE from a protoss is alot harder to hide than a terran's FE. With your ghost mech build it would seem you would notice the FE long before you wanted to put down your factory not to mention your starport. If you notice it what I have been trying to work on is a tank hellion timing attack to discourage toss from FEing. I gain the second 100 gas about the time the factory is about 3/4 done and instead of saving it for a starport I build a second factory. (both gain tech labs) Build tanks when you have the gas and hellions otherwise. Start the blue flame upgrade asap and about 30sec into the research start the siege mode upgrade so they will both finish simultaneously. My push occurs at the moment around the 7:00-7:30 mark (still working on it I think I can do it faster) with 4 tanks/4 hellions/ and about 14-16 marines. I'm no expert with protoss builds but doing a rough protoss build with a gate on 12 and nexus on 14 (probably not optimal but like I said I'm not good with protoss timings) I did nothing but chrono boost probes and both were saturated around the 5:30 mark. You should be able to do some sort of pressure with your marines early on to discourage the constant boosting of probes.
Even if a double factory timing push turns out not to work. Ive been experimenting with goody's marauder/reaper early pressure transition into mech. From what I see standard toss builds have trouble with that pressure so there is not a doubt in my mind that FE would have that problem.
Another transition I use to some sucess if the toss goes for air play is obviously to get alot of marines. I make sure and get a techlab on at least 3 of the raxes I would want to produce infantry from. Once I have the ghost count I want I can produce reapers 3 at a time (for the same price and build time as a ghost) Doing 2 pronged attacks with reapers and hellions seems to keep the toss busy as there are some things that reapers can harass that hellions couldn't dream of harassing.
Thats basically just like the 2 fact push in BW you did to kill a 1 gate FE that you pump out 2 tanks and push with your marines and rally vultures to follow.
But yeah one thing to note about avilo's way of Meching was that he goes super Captain Turtle like not to be a dick he's obviously without a doubt a way better and more experienced player than me but like if you go on youtube you can find a game between him and Huk on Steppes of War which is just a classic example of how at least I wouldn't go about meching on Steppes. Like he turtles to the max and never really pushes out and he spends way too much on ghosts than he should and he gets very few hellions for harass (and uses both them and the tanks in drops which i don't think is the best way to use your tanks) and almost no marines if any and he just turtles to the max and pushes his tanks up towards his third instead of where he should be pushing which is straight across the middle. i don't care what matchup you play Tank pushing across the middle of steppes is just amazing.
I watched a game of MorroW's back when he played terran where he went Mech against a toss pushing straight across the middle with bunkers supply depots turrets and of course tanks and he just steamrolled his opponent. the reason being for doing this is because you force him to attack your army cuz if he doesn't then he will lose his natural. If he tries to flank or go into your third on the cliffs with the watch towers you can unsiege and trap him in there where he's either gunna walk into your tanks or your planetary,
Steppes is not a map where you want to wait for maxed tanks and ghosts (and pretty much nothing else) and then try and push you really just gotta get ur first group of tanks and marines just start pushing in a straight line just like you would say on Python if you were at 2/3 o'clock position and P would be at 6 o'clock. You also gotta be flexible and use the map to your advantage that's part of just being good at the game.
Avilo also saw Huk get carriers and would get like 6 vikings and a thor and then mass turrets and yet again turtle.
I mean Mech you obviously turtle but eventually you gotta start crawling towards him but in all the replays and VODs i saw of avilo's Mech he basically just waited for 200/200 with about 80% tanks 15% ghosts and 5% hellions which is obviously not a very good composition. And then he would never transition out of it very much even if he scouted Air tech. In avilo's defense that was like back in the beta and MorroW's game I saw was i think in some Gosugamers stream awhile back a little bit before he switched to Zerg i think anyways. I wish i knew where to find a VOD of the game so i could post it.
On December 31 2010 18:30 gavss wrote: templars and chargelots are very good against marine tank builds. because you can never make enough ghosts if you build tanks.
terran needs mines !
I don't think mines would help much man. Like for one thing they wouldn't do anything to HTs as HTs float plus how often do you think an HT would run into range of one. And against Zlots it would be just another thing for Zlots to exploit to use against your tanks and whatever else you have because of how charge works compared to zlot speed in bw i just can imagine mine dragging would be a lot simpler for the toss. Hellions are better at killing Zlots anyways. I garantee that 10 hellions could kill 16 zlots faster than even 15 vultures ever could.
If you think about it though, Hellions are mineral only, fast and deal splash dmg...splash on a mineral only unit. Ground should not be a problem at all for mech. The air transition that happens allot faster then in BW due to CB is though.
Avilo,Raiznhell, when Protoss goes for double expand (from 2 base to 4) couldn't Terran do the same with PF? They should be safe until some time. The people i play against react in the exact opposite way, are afraid to expand and just turtle lol.
For mech to work you need constant scouting of the and you have to where his units are and what his composition is. You have to use the tanks with other units to protect them - hellions, marines, thors (vikings if he goes colosi). If he goes mass air you can start adding more marines much easier than he can add air units. Early upgrades are crucial and I dont think you need ghosts, marines and hellions take out their shields good enough. Chargelots are no no vs hellions. Surely the toss can double expand but there should be a way to punish him. And sensor towers are just awesome.
On December 31 2010 18:30 gavss wrote: templars and chargelots are very good against marine tank builds. because you can never make enough ghosts if you build tanks.
terran needs mines !
I don't think mines would help much man. Like for one thing they wouldn't do anything to HTs as HTs float plus how often do you think an HT would run into range of one. And against Zlots it would be just another thing for Zlots to exploit to use against your tanks and whatever else you have because of how charge works compared to zlot speed in bw i just can imagine mine dragging would be a lot simpler for the toss. Hellions are better at killing Zlots anyways. I garantee that 10 hellions could kill 16 zlots faster than even 15 vultures ever could.
I am in total agreeance with you raiznhell about vultures and hellions vs zealots. Mines would actually actually not change much. Not the say that they wouldn't help mines would definately help but IMHO they aren't necessary. However, one thing I feel is worth noting is that mines also served the purpose of delaying the dragoon advance as the dragoons could not get in range of the tanks until the mines were cleared.
As many people here have said the main problem with mech is aa.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
You should probably watch the replays considering Jade was the protoss and I was talking about the weakness of this build. Second off, how would this work lategame when a stargate is almost guaranteed.
Remember in BW how Mech would be working strong then the protoss would bust out the Carriers and the Terran would then proceed to shit his pants and bust out a load of Goliaths and ultimately win.
That's why i get 3 starports with reactors before doing any intense pushing action. So that when i see stargate i can bust out so many vikings so fast toss can't believe it.
This can be remedied with marines bunkers and turrets but goliaths worked out much better vs carriers for 2 reasons. 1. goliaths were able to attack carriers while still fulfilling the vultures meat shield role. 2. goliaths benefitted from mech upgrades while vikings do not.
While mech is still useful with things as they are the change(s) that would benefit it the most is altering the viking or altering the thor.
Just wanted to state a critical flaw in this build that might cause a lot of terran users some pain. Its that a well executed 4gate will run over one bunker. You usually need two if ur keeping urself alive off of one reactored rax. Also, another flaw is that once a protoss has 6gas mining as a terran it is really difficult to stop. Your build that does allow map control for the other user will prompt the toss to expand earlier at higher levels especially if he is abusing the mobility of your mech army.
I'm a Terran that would like to play mech rather than bio, but still plays bio because it's stronger. Well, this thread makes me happy, checked 4-5 reps then went laddering beating 2 toss with this. Great work @ OP, I can see some potential for this build! Two things I got in mind: 1. How important are upgrades for this build? As stated by the OP, vehicles weapons is obvious. Does it also make sense to upgrade vehicle armor or infantry weapons? 2. In the few reps I've watched from the OP there wasn't a single Thor. I'd say after 12-15 tanks, I'd might be a good idea to switch to thors because you've got enough tanks anyway. What do you guys think?
On January 01 2011 01:47 Ender Wiggin wrote: Just wanted to state a critical flaw in this build that might cause a lot of terran users some pain. Its that a well executed 4gate will run over one bunker. You usually need two if ur keeping urself alive off of one reactored rax. Also, another flaw is that once a protoss has 6gas mining as a terran it is really difficult to stop. Your build that does allow map control for the other user will prompt the toss to expand earlier at higher levels especially if he is abusing the mobility of your mech army.
yeah I'm sure the 1 rax FE isn't the safest build in the world. I think the safest Openings for Mech will always be a 2 rax opening with some early marauder play or the 1/1/1 tank/marine/raven-banshee then go mech when you expand.
the best build for mech is the 1/1/1 with fast drop hellion(blue flame) and one bunker, then exp+bay, after the cc+bay, add 1 fact(with lab, so two fact with lab...and build only tanks no stop) and one armory and after that(not immediatly, but when you have the money ofcourse...), other 3 factory(1 with lab the other two with reactor). you also have very early the starport so u can pump viking very fast if the opponent go void
On December 31 2010 11:11 avilo wrote: I used to exclusively ghost mech TvP ages ago...but I scrapped that when it turned out to not be viable anymore. A combination of protosses getting much better at this game, and the patch completely killed tank based mech.
Every time you do it, just like serv said, toss takes a free 4th/5th, and one of those might even be a gold. Then they just go carriers, mass immortal/templar/gates with collosus, and will re-max zerg style and kill you, while you're barely on one maxed out supply limit, and with Terran you cannot reproduce your army instantly, while P can.
So mech if you want to, but from my personal experience it got to the point where I had to ask myself: do I want to play this game for fun and win TvPs like this vs weaker players or do I want to start winning SC2 and get better? The choice was pretty obvious.
So if you play for fun, by all means, keep going for that mech TvP.
Avilo I am pretty familiar with your ghost mech. You state that the expansions are the hardest part to deal with. Does this usually mean a toss fast expand? (some people in this thread have noted that toss will attempt this if they know you are meching.) I've encountered problems like this an FE from a protoss is alot harder to hide than a terran's FE. With your ghost mech build it would seem you would notice the FE long before you wanted to put down your factory not to mention your starport. If you notice it what I have been trying to work on is a tank hellion timing attack to discourage toss from FEing. I gain the second 100 gas about the time the factory is about 3/4 done and instead of saving it for a starport I build a second factory. (both gain tech labs) Build tanks when you have the gas and hellions otherwise. Start the blue flame upgrade asap and about 30sec into the research start the siege mode upgrade so they will both finish simultaneously. My push occurs at the moment around the 7:00-7:30 mark (still working on it I think I can do it faster) with 4 tanks/4 hellions/ and about 14-16 marines. I'm no expert with protoss builds but doing a rough protoss build with a gate on 12 and nexus on 14 (probably not optimal but like I said I'm not good with protoss timings) I did nothing but chrono boost probes and both were saturated around the 5:30 mark. You should be able to do some sort of pressure with your marines early on to discourage the constant boosting of probes.
Even if a double factory timing push turns out not to work. Ive been experimenting with goody's marauder/reaper early pressure transition into mech. From what I see standard toss builds have trouble with that pressure so there is not a doubt in my mind that FE would have that problem.
Another transition I use to some sucess if the toss goes for air play is obviously to get alot of marines. I make sure and get a techlab on at least 3 of the raxes I would want to produce infantry from. Once I have the ghost count I want I can produce reapers 3 at a time (for the same price and build time as a ghost) Doing 2 pronged attacks with reapers and hellions seems to keep the toss busy as there are some things that reapers can harass that hellions couldn't dream of harassing.
Thats basically just like the 2 fact push in BW you did to kill a 1 gate FE that you pump out 2 tanks and push with your marines and rally vultures to follow.
But yeah one thing to note about avilo's way of Meching was that he goes super Captain Turtle like not to be a dick he's obviously without a doubt a way better and more experienced player than me but like if you go on youtube you can find a game between him and Huk on Steppes of War which is just a classic example of how at least I wouldn't go about meching on Steppes. Like he turtles to the max and never really pushes out and he spends way too much on ghosts than he should and he gets very few hellions for harass (and uses both them and the tanks in drops which i don't think is the best way to use your tanks) and almost no marines if any and he just turtles to the max and pushes his tanks up towards his third instead of where he should be pushing which is straight across the middle. i don't care what matchup you play Tank pushing across the middle of steppes is just amazing.
I watched a game of MorroW's back when he played terran where he went Mech against a toss pushing straight across the middle with bunkers supply depots turrets and of course tanks and he just steamrolled his opponent. the reason being for doing this is because you force him to attack your army cuz if he doesn't then he will lose his natural. If he tries to flank or go into your third on the cliffs with the watch towers you can unsiege and trap him in there where he's either gunna walk into your tanks or your planetary,
Steppes is not a map where you want to wait for maxed tanks and ghosts (and pretty much nothing else) and then try and push you really just gotta get ur first group of tanks and marines just start pushing in a straight line just like you would say on Python if you were at 2/3 o'clock position and P would be at 6 o'clock. You also gotta be flexible and use the map to your advantage that's part of just being good at the game.
Avilo also saw Huk get carriers and would get like 6 vikings and a thor and then mass turrets and yet again turtle.
I mean Mech you obviously turtle but eventually you gotta start crawling towards him but in all the replays and VODs i saw of avilo's Mech he basically just waited for 200/200 with about 80% tanks 15% ghosts and 5% hellions which is obviously not a very good composition. And then he would never transition out of it very much even if he scouted Air tech. In avilo's defense that was like back in the beta and MorroW's game I saw was i think in some Gosugamers stream awhile back a little bit before he switched to Zerg i think anyways. I wish i knew where to find a VOD of the game so i could post it.
You obviously watched 1 random game and made astounding general statements about how I play which are not only completely wrong, but don't make any sense. I never have dropped tanks in a TvP, that's stupid. You're not familiar with how i played mech at all if you're saying things like this. And are you really trying to lecture me on mech tvp? I've played probably a thousand games of mech tvp between beta and now.
I've played pretty much every mech variation there is in this game, and all of them end up with you giving free advantages to protoss. I was one of the few people to abuse hellions in beta with blue flame hellion drops, but protosses were also horrible at defending it back then...because very few people ever did it. Also, please don't try and say what i know and don't know based off of one shitty game posted on youtube when the game was in beta stages too.
I've done thor/banshee mech b4 that was known about, mass banshee/viking airmech style with ghost, tank/hellion/thor/ghost/viking, mass hellion/tank, thor mech, etc. When you go mech and are reaching max you don't want your army to be heavily hellion based, you want that supply to be thors/tanks/vikings.
Because every protoss unit tears through a hellion based mech army like it's nothing in late-game...and mech vs protoss games went late game all the time because that's how mech plays out...
mech will work at lower diamond levels tvp because those protoss have no idea wtf you are doing and haven't seen it much, but when you start getting higher you'll wonder why you ever were trying mech TvP when at the same timings had you gone bio you'd have your expo, map control, and lots of times be able to pressure protoss and kill them half the time or stay even.
It's not just me saying this stuff either...every other experienced mech player here is describing similar situations and reasons why mech tvp is not good right now. Perhaps everything has not been explored to the fullest, but when even the players that LOVE mech tvp here and used it a lot are saying that it's bad to do...there's a reason for that...
And a huge reason of why you can't mech anymore like before is because zealots armor was changed to be able to take extra tank shots, and tank damage was reduced.
Those two things alone made mech tvp go from viable to downright impossible. Zealots that last through more tank shots combined with immortals that already can take plenty of tank shots, combined with range 9 collosus which means more vikigns less tanks, combined with phoenixes that will easily lift up your tanks...means that protoss simply 1a clicks into your army and if you were unsieged or just sieging at that moment you automatically lost the game.
That means you can't attack with mech, and when you do, you're actually vulnerable to a run-in of zealot/immortal + whatever else they have so protoss always will have their free expansions and simply outmacro you no matter how good your mech play is.
And that's where the metagame is right now TvP. Mech is obsolete, so most good Terrans already were going bio, or have re-learned marauder/marine/viking/ghost bio, and face the situation of needing to pressure and kill protoss before they reach the khadayrin amulet, otherwise it's often GG.
And then that's where you have forum noobies saying, "omg you shouldn't go bio tvp! you're asking to get stormed!" and those are the people that literally understand nothing about SC2.
If you find some mech TvP that works a large percentage of the time at 3k+ diamond that does not give protoss free advantages, please share when you reach that level!
edit: and please don't take this as discouragement of continuing your mech play, it's just that compared to bio based TvP, mech play has too many weaknesses and is too easily abused by good protosses. I myself will probably go back to the drawing board on mech TvP...eventually...to see if there's anything workable there. Mech is playable in TvT/TvZ, so it may still be possible in TvP at some point or versus certain styles.
On January 01 2011 01:47 Ender Wiggin wrote: Just wanted to state a critical flaw in this build that might cause a lot of terran users some pain. Its that a well executed 4gate will run over one bunker. You usually need two if ur keeping urself alive off of one reactored rax. Also, another flaw is that once a protoss has 6gas mining as a terran it is really difficult to stop. Your build that does allow map control for the other user will prompt the toss to expand earlier at higher levels especially if he is abusing the mobility of your mech army.
Also, had to quote what wiggin said here because it's another weakness of trying to play mech TvP.
You can't ever go directly into mech - you always have to start off with a reactored barracks opening, or a marauder opening, or something. And when protoss does a 4gate he basically does get complete map control, which sounds incredibly stupid because you'd think 4gate is all-inish or gimmicky, but they are free to expo because you have virtually no production in comparison to them.
You end up stuck on 1/1/1, so other than tank/marine/raven/banshee timing, you cannot attack 100% of the time, but if you don't attack, they expo free, and if you do attack, they can 4gate and try to kill you early, or even 3gate robo and mass zealot/immortal or what not.
There are just toooooo many ways toss can do something stupidly easy to punish you economically or kill you when you're going for a mech style.
On December 31 2010 11:11 avilo wrote: I used to exclusively ghost mech TvP ages ago...but I scrapped that when it turned out to not be viable anymore. A combination of protosses getting much better at this game, and the patch completely killed tank based mech.
Every time you do it, just like serv said, toss takes a free 4th/5th, and one of those might even be a gold. Then they just go carriers, mass immortal/templar/gates with collosus, and will re-max zerg style and kill you, while you're barely on one maxed out supply limit, and with Terran you cannot reproduce your army instantly, while P can.
So mech if you want to, but from my personal experience it got to the point where I had to ask myself: do I want to play this game for fun and win TvPs like this vs weaker players or do I want to start winning SC2 and get better? The choice was pretty obvious.
So if you play for fun, by all means, keep going for that mech TvP.
Avilo I am pretty familiar with your ghost mech. You state that the expansions are the hardest part to deal with. Does this usually mean a toss fast expand? (some people in this thread have noted that toss will attempt this if they know you are meching.) I've encountered problems like this an FE from a protoss is alot harder to hide than a terran's FE. With your ghost mech build it would seem you would notice the FE long before you wanted to put down your factory not to mention your starport. If you notice it what I have been trying to work on is a tank hellion timing attack to discourage toss from FEing. I gain the second 100 gas about the time the factory is about 3/4 done and instead of saving it for a starport I build a second factory. (both gain tech labs) Build tanks when you have the gas and hellions otherwise. Start the blue flame upgrade asap and about 30sec into the research start the siege mode upgrade so they will both finish simultaneously. My push occurs at the moment around the 7:00-7:30 mark (still working on it I think I can do it faster) with 4 tanks/4 hellions/ and about 14-16 marines. I'm no expert with protoss builds but doing a rough protoss build with a gate on 12 and nexus on 14 (probably not optimal but like I said I'm not good with protoss timings) I did nothing but chrono boost probes and both were saturated around the 5:30 mark. You should be able to do some sort of pressure with your marines early on to discourage the constant boosting of probes.
Even if a double factory timing push turns out not to work. Ive been experimenting with goody's marauder/reaper early pressure transition into mech. From what I see standard toss builds have trouble with that pressure so there is not a doubt in my mind that FE would have that problem.
Another transition I use to some sucess if the toss goes for air play is obviously to get alot of marines. I make sure and get a techlab on at least 3 of the raxes I would want to produce infantry from. Once I have the ghost count I want I can produce reapers 3 at a time (for the same price and build time as a ghost) Doing 2 pronged attacks with reapers and hellions seems to keep the toss busy as there are some things that reapers can harass that hellions couldn't dream of harassing.
Thats basically just like the 2 fact push in BW you did to kill a 1 gate FE that you pump out 2 tanks and push with your marines and rally vultures to follow.
But yeah one thing to note about avilo's way of Meching was that he goes super Captain Turtle like not to be a dick he's obviously without a doubt a way better and more experienced player than me but like if you go on youtube you can find a game between him and Huk on Steppes of War which is just a classic example of how at least I wouldn't go about meching on Steppes. Like he turtles to the max and never really pushes out and he spends way too much on ghosts than he should and he gets very few hellions for harass (and uses both them and the tanks in drops which i don't think is the best way to use your tanks) and almost no marines if any and he just turtles to the max and pushes his tanks up towards his third instead of where he should be pushing which is straight across the middle. i don't care what matchup you play Tank pushing across the middle of steppes is just amazing.
I watched a game of MorroW's back when he played terran where he went Mech against a toss pushing straight across the middle with bunkers supply depots turrets and of course tanks and he just steamrolled his opponent. the reason being for doing this is because you force him to attack your army cuz if he doesn't then he will lose his natural. If he tries to flank or go into your third on the cliffs with the watch towers you can unsiege and trap him in there where he's either gunna walk into your tanks or your planetary,
Steppes is not a map where you want to wait for maxed tanks and ghosts (and pretty much nothing else) and then try and push you really just gotta get ur first group of tanks and marines just start pushing in a straight line just like you would say on Python if you were at 2/3 o'clock position and P would be at 6 o'clock. You also gotta be flexible and use the map to your advantage that's part of just being good at the game.
Avilo also saw Huk get carriers and would get like 6 vikings and a thor and then mass turrets and yet again turtle.
I mean Mech you obviously turtle but eventually you gotta start crawling towards him but in all the replays and VODs i saw of avilo's Mech he basically just waited for 200/200 with about 80% tanks 15% ghosts and 5% hellions which is obviously not a very good composition. And then he would never transition out of it very much even if he scouted Air tech. In avilo's defense that was like back in the beta and MorroW's game I saw was i think in some Gosugamers stream awhile back a little bit before he switched to Zerg i think anyways. I wish i knew where to find a VOD of the game so i could post it.
You obviously watched 1 random game and made astounding general statements about how I play which are not only completely wrong, but don't make any sense. I never have dropped tanks in a TvP, that's stupid. You're not familiar with how i played mech at all if you're saying things like this. And are you really trying to lecture me on mech tvp? I've played probably a thousand games of mech tvp between beta and now.
I've played pretty much every mech variation there is in this game, and all of them end up with you giving free advantages to protoss. I was one of the few people to abuse hellions in beta with blue flame hellion drops, but protosses were also horrible at defending it back then...because very few people ever did it. Also, please don't try and say what i know and don't know based off of one shitty game posted on youtube when the game was in beta stages too.
I've done thor/banshee mech b4 that was known about, mass banshee/viking airmech style with ghost, tank/hellion/thor/ghost/viking, mass hellion/tank, thor mech, etc. When you go mech and are reaching max you don't want your army to be heavily hellion based, you want that supply to be thors/tanks/vikings.
Because every protoss unit tears through a hellion based mech army like it's nothing in late-game...and mech vs protoss games went late game all the time because that's how mech plays out...
mech will work at lower diamond levels tvp because those protoss have no idea wtf you are doing and haven't seen it much, but when you start getting higher you'll wonder why you ever were trying mech TvP when at the same timings had you gone bio you'd have your expo, map control, and lots of times be able to pressure protoss and kill them half the time or stay even.
It's not just me saying this stuff either...every other experienced mech player here is describing similar situations and reasons why mech tvp is not good right now. Perhaps everything has not been explored to the fullest, but when even the players that LOVE mech tvp here and used it a lot are saying that it's bad to do...there's a reason for that...
And a huge reason of why you can't mech anymore like before is because zealots armor was changed to be able to take extra tank shots, and tank damage was reduced.
Those two things alone made mech tvp go from viable to downright impossible. Zealots that last through more tank shots combined with immortals that already can take plenty of tank shots, combined with range 9 collosus which means more vikigns less tanks, combined with phoenixes that will easily lift up your tanks...means that protoss simply 1a clicks into your army and if you were unsieged or just sieging at that moment you automatically lost the game.
That means you can't attack with mech, and when you do, you're actually vulnerable to a run-in of zealot/immortal + whatever else they have so protoss always will have their free expansions and simply outmacro you no matter how good your mech play is.
And that's where the metagame is right now TvP. Mech is obsolete, so most good Terrans already were going bio, or have re-learned marauder/marine/viking/ghost bio, and face the situation of needing to pressure and kill protoss before they reach the khadayrin amulet, otherwise it's often GG.
And then that's where you have forum noobies saying, "omg you shouldn't go bio tvp! you're asking to get stormed!" and those are the people that literally understand nothing about SC2.
If you find some mech TvP that works a large percentage of the time at 3k+ diamond that does not give protoss free advantages, please share when you reach that level!
edit: and please don't take this as discouragement of continuing your mech play, it's just that compared to bio based TvP, mech play has too many weaknesses and is too easily abused by good protosses. I myself will probably go back to the drawing board on mech TvP...eventually...to see if there's anything workable there. Mech is playable in TvT/TvZ, so it may still be possible in TvP at some point or versus certain styles.
Really sorry about harsh criticisms towards your play when obviously you are better than me and know a lot more but like I watched the Huk game and the Ziddy game as well as a few replays you posted that you won in. And in the Huk vid you did drop a tank with 2 hellions on his naturals mineral line. I just thought that in all of those games you pushed the turtling a bit too far. I haven't seen any of your other Mech stuff other than your version of ghostmech.
But you are of course right in that Mech has those weaknesses i suppose but bio is seeming to have a lot of weaknesses of it's own if Protoss can hold out like a hero.
I have a hunch and while i won't be sad if it doesn't happen but i just feel that any future changes to terran are going to involve some sort of Bio nerf and a Mech buff cuz blizzard stated themselves it seems terran struggles late game and right now the only unit that looks like it could use any tweaking for late game is the siege tank. I dunno what they'd do to bio but im expecting something like probably stim doing a percentage hp hit instead of just 10 hp.
I dunno regardless Mech should be something that is at least a map specific strategy like I haven't lost a Mech game yet on Steppes and Delta Quadrant (other than them nailing me at that 7 minute timing as i'm expanding). Those maps plus i find Jungle Basin is super strong for Mech because you can just take the center with the towers and pretty much have full map control without even moving.
@ Psycho-SoniC. Yeah it would be an awesome idea to switch to thors because something that can bust your hump is when they go for a Zlot HT void ray/Carrier thing and you've been dominating the ground battles with your tanks but now they sort of lost the need to have a a ton of them so getting rid of half your tanks (suiciding to take out an expansion or something necessary, they kill nexus soo damn fast unsieged) and then replacing them with thors and the necessary vikings and hellions for the zlot templar VR/Carrier. What the thors do in this case is defend you against an instant warpin of stalkers while your low on tanks as you still have a few tanks and the thors just kill everything (except armored air -_-) ridiculously fast.
First off, i must say, i absolutely LOVE your macro. I watched a few games, and you had a bigger army than your opponent for the most part.
However the fact is that most of the games you completely outplay your opponents. It really didn't show that mech would be any stronger than bio, i'm sure that if you were to bio mech, you would still end up winning.
I noticed that your play style is VERY similar to that of TvP in sc1.
Also, wouldn't be smart to get stim? Stim on marines just does amazing things when you push. I noticed that during your macro, you would end up with a lot more minerals than gas. Putting up some barracks and producing more marines never hurt, especially if your opponent isn't going to be going high templars or collosi to fight your mainly mech army.
I mech'd a bit back in the beta. I mostly just Bio Mech at the moment but after watching A few of your reps. I think i'll take it up again. It reminds me of the good ol' BW days
A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
On December 31 2010 11:11 avilo wrote: I used to exclusively ghost mech TvP ages ago...but I scrapped that when it turned out to not be viable anymore. A combination of protosses getting much better at this game, and the patch completely killed tank based mech.
Every time you do it, just like serv said, toss takes a free 4th/5th, and one of those might even be a gold. Then they just go carriers, mass immortal/templar/gates with collosus, and will re-max zerg style and kill you, while you're barely on one maxed out supply limit, and with Terran you cannot reproduce your army instantly, while P can.
So mech if you want to, but from my personal experience it got to the point where I had to ask myself: do I want to play this game for fun and win TvPs like this vs weaker players or do I want to start winning SC2 and get better? The choice was pretty obvious.
So if you play for fun, by all means, keep going for that mech TvP.
Avilo I am pretty familiar with your ghost mech. You state that the expansions are the hardest part to deal with. Does this usually mean a toss fast expand? (some people in this thread have noted that toss will attempt this if they know you are meching.) I've encountered problems like this an FE from a protoss is alot harder to hide than a terran's FE. With your ghost mech build it would seem you would notice the FE long before you wanted to put down your factory not to mention your starport. If you notice it what I have been trying to work on is a tank hellion timing attack to discourage toss from FEing. I gain the second 100 gas about the time the factory is about 3/4 done and instead of saving it for a starport I build a second factory. (both gain tech labs) Build tanks when you have the gas and hellions otherwise. Start the blue flame upgrade asap and about 30sec into the research start the siege mode upgrade so they will both finish simultaneously. My push occurs at the moment around the 7:00-7:30 mark (still working on it I think I can do it faster) with 4 tanks/4 hellions/ and about 14-16 marines. I'm no expert with protoss builds but doing a rough protoss build with a gate on 12 and nexus on 14 (probably not optimal but like I said I'm not good with protoss timings) I did nothing but chrono boost probes and both were saturated around the 5:30 mark. You should be able to do some sort of pressure with your marines early on to discourage the constant boosting of probes.
Even if a double factory timing push turns out not to work. Ive been experimenting with goody's marauder/reaper early pressure transition into mech. From what I see standard toss builds have trouble with that pressure so there is not a doubt in my mind that FE would have that problem.
Another transition I use to some sucess if the toss goes for air play is obviously to get alot of marines. I make sure and get a techlab on at least 3 of the raxes I would want to produce infantry from. Once I have the ghost count I want I can produce reapers 3 at a time (for the same price and build time as a ghost) Doing 2 pronged attacks with reapers and hellions seems to keep the toss busy as there are some things that reapers can harass that hellions couldn't dream of harassing.
Thats basically just like the 2 fact push in BW you did to kill a 1 gate FE that you pump out 2 tanks and push with your marines and rally vultures to follow.
But yeah one thing to note about avilo's way of Meching was that he goes super Captain Turtle like not to be a dick he's obviously without a doubt a way better and more experienced player than me but like if you go on youtube you can find a game between him and Huk on Steppes of War which is just a classic example of how at least I wouldn't go about meching on Steppes. Like he turtles to the max and never really pushes out and he spends way too much on ghosts than he should and he gets very few hellions for harass (and uses both them and the tanks in drops which i don't think is the best way to use your tanks) and almost no marines if any and he just turtles to the max and pushes his tanks up towards his third instead of where he should be pushing which is straight across the middle. i don't care what matchup you play Tank pushing across the middle of steppes is just amazing.
I watched a game of MorroW's back when he played terran where he went Mech against a toss pushing straight across the middle with bunkers supply depots turrets and of course tanks and he just steamrolled his opponent. the reason being for doing this is because you force him to attack your army cuz if he doesn't then he will lose his natural. If he tries to flank or go into your third on the cliffs with the watch towers you can unsiege and trap him in there where he's either gunna walk into your tanks or your planetary,
Steppes is not a map where you want to wait for maxed tanks and ghosts (and pretty much nothing else) and then try and push you really just gotta get ur first group of tanks and marines just start pushing in a straight line just like you would say on Python if you were at 2/3 o'clock position and P would be at 6 o'clock. You also gotta be flexible and use the map to your advantage that's part of just being good at the game.
Avilo also saw Huk get carriers and would get like 6 vikings and a thor and then mass turrets and yet again turtle.
I mean Mech you obviously turtle but eventually you gotta start crawling towards him but in all the replays and VODs i saw of avilo's Mech he basically just waited for 200/200 with about 80% tanks 15% ghosts and 5% hellions which is obviously not a very good composition. And then he would never transition out of it very much even if he scouted Air tech. In avilo's defense that was like back in the beta and MorroW's game I saw was i think in some Gosugamers stream awhile back a little bit before he switched to Zerg i think anyways. I wish i knew where to find a VOD of the game so i could post it.
You obviously watched 1 random game and made astounding general statements about how I play which are not only completely wrong, but don't make any sense. I never have dropped tanks in a TvP, that's stupid. You're not familiar with how i played mech at all if you're saying things like this. And are you really trying to lecture me on mech tvp? I've played probably a thousand games of mech tvp between beta and now.
I've played pretty much every mech variation there is in this game, and all of them end up with you giving free advantages to protoss. I was one of the few people to abuse hellions in beta with blue flame hellion drops, but protosses were also horrible at defending it back then...because very few people ever did it. Also, please don't try and say what i know and don't know based off of one shitty game posted on youtube when the game was in beta stages too.
I've done thor/banshee mech b4 that was known about, mass banshee/viking airmech style with ghost, tank/hellion/thor/ghost/viking, mass hellion/tank, thor mech, etc. When you go mech and are reaching max you don't want your army to be heavily hellion based, you want that supply to be thors/tanks/vikings.
Because every protoss unit tears through a hellion based mech army like it's nothing in late-game...and mech vs protoss games went late game all the time because that's how mech plays out...
mech will work at lower diamond levels tvp because those protoss have no idea wtf you are doing and haven't seen it much, but when you start getting higher you'll wonder why you ever were trying mech TvP when at the same timings had you gone bio you'd have your expo, map control, and lots of times be able to pressure protoss and kill them half the time or stay even.
It's not just me saying this stuff either...every other experienced mech player here is describing similar situations and reasons why mech tvp is not good right now. Perhaps everything has not been explored to the fullest, but when even the players that LOVE mech tvp here and used it a lot are saying that it's bad to do...there's a reason for that...
And a huge reason of why you can't mech anymore like before is because zealots armor was changed to be able to take extra tank shots, and tank damage was reduced.
Those two things alone made mech tvp go from viable to downright impossible. Zealots that last through more tank shots combined with immortals that already can take plenty of tank shots, combined with range 9 collosus which means more vikigns less tanks, combined with phoenixes that will easily lift up your tanks...means that protoss simply 1a clicks into your army and if you were unsieged or just sieging at that moment you automatically lost the game.
That means you can't attack with mech, and when you do, you're actually vulnerable to a run-in of zealot/immortal + whatever else they have so protoss always will have their free expansions and simply outmacro you no matter how good your mech play is.
And that's where the metagame is right now TvP. Mech is obsolete, so most good Terrans already were going bio, or have re-learned marauder/marine/viking/ghost bio, and face the situation of needing to pressure and kill protoss before they reach the khadayrin amulet, otherwise it's often GG.
And then that's where you have forum noobies saying, "omg you shouldn't go bio tvp! you're asking to get stormed!" and those are the people that literally understand nothing about SC2.
If you find some mech TvP that works a large percentage of the time at 3k+ diamond that does not give protoss free advantages, please share when you reach that level!
edit: and please don't take this as discouragement of continuing your mech play, it's just that compared to bio based TvP, mech play has too many weaknesses and is too easily abused by good protosses. I myself will probably go back to the drawing board on mech TvP...eventually...to see if there's anything workable there. Mech is playable in TvT/TvZ, so it may still be possible in TvP at some point or versus certain styles.
Everything basically got summarized here. Its quiet funny because i also was one of the few that mech for a long time and i can definitely say that it is note that good. All i gotta say is that it is an experience you must experience yourself to truely understand why mech doesnt work. Even late game, it will fail against Carriers + HT. I have been going back to mech by transitioning into it late game. Trying to skip starport if possible and go straight to tanks and out muscle the collosus with tanks + bio and ghost. Then as the game progress ill start swapping addon and transition into pure mech since at the point i can effeciently produce tanks in large quantity and have a decent count to be aggressive with. Then from there ill just keep pressure and dont let them transition to carriers.
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
I watched the replays and they aren't good examples imo. The first game the cannon rush fails and you expo, anything would have won at that point. The 2nd game your opponent does one of the sloppiest, poorly executed, inefficient 4 gates I've ever seen, if executed better I would break that build, no doubt in my mind. A second rax and 2nd full bunker is necessary to stop a real 4 gate (since you have no marauders).
The 3rd game your opponent plays much better than the first 2 but he still has poor decision making. He keeps trying to break you turtle which is the opposite of how you beat mech. He researches charge and then gets a bunch of stalkers with no blink, and he could have warped dt's into your natural and any old time with the pylon he had, but never did.
I play P and T and also did in BW. I can honestly say I don't believe mech play is viable in PvT. If I see a terran mech I will just expand like crazy, get about 20 gates (seriously) charge and double forge upgrades, maybe some voids too. Then just wait for your push and prevent you from taking expose. Once you push out, I just wait for good positioning and try to get a surround or really good concave on your force while it is moving. Even if I only kill half of it I just remake my army instantly and if i have to I can crono 10 warpates, (because I'll probably have 4 or 5 bases) and hit again and again till I breaks the push. Also, if I see mech I usually go double robo for double immortals. If I get 4 or more bases I get quad robo. Then every time you move out I will warp in and counter attack, everytime your tanks unseige 20 chargelots will hit you. This may seem ridiculous but it crushes mech play. I think your opponents were just unfamiliar with how to play against it. I also think it would be much stronger for you to have more marines (a second rax with tech lab) and get combat shield and stim. I did like the starport with reactor, you need lots of vikings fast, if they go colossus or air, but I think a few dropships full of hellions (and some good micro) would be very effective and I didn't see you utilize the hellions for any successful harass.
Your opponents all played bad imo. Most had poor decision making, and attacked at the worse possible times into turtled positions with no flanking (all their units in a ball) All of your opponents had crap macro. Unused crono, forgetting workers. They were almost always behind on expos, and workers. When they did take more than 3 bases they still only had 6 gates. One game on delta the toss breaks your push and has 2500 in the bank, and you rebuild your army before him because he is on 3 base with 5 gates....... and he could have taken the gold next to his natural at any time but didn't. Most of the opponents seemed to have the right idea for composition, but no idea how to execute and terrible macro. If you face a protoss who identifies your meching, gets the right composition, has good macro and actually understands when to expand, this will loose 90%+
The people you played had bad decision making, bad macro, and only know how to 1a with their army. I would be glad to play against you in a bo7, I will use a bunch of different builds, and I think you will be convinced by the end that this is not viable. You beat your opponents because of decision making, macro,and positioning. Mech had nothing to do with it imo other than the fact that your opponents were inexperienced against it. Any decent toss from BW will probably crush this.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but i have to completely agree with Reborn. The 1st 2 really sucks balls, i can nitpick on how bad jade is with his 4gate push and supposed counters, macros, etc 30 apm (okay i don't believe u need high apm to function, but u need atleast 50 to be competent---noh? but let's leave that.
The biggest issue i think is that the toss u play against dont push u when u try to push, has no sense of map control, and does not pre-emptivly pylon everywhere to wait for u to push.
I think bliz matching you against these guys isn't a mistake, granted ur only high 1k, and they are 2.4k or something, its based on hidden mmr and etc, so if they are bad, they will be matched with u. C'mon, with the bonus points, you pretty much have a 2100 rating for free at a 50 percent w/l ratio, as well as u can spam games--well ALOT of games to get to 3k (with 51 percent w/l)....
On January 01 2011 18:49 SheaR619 wrote: The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
Hellions(especially with Pre-Igniter) can be very effective as a harass unit before the push. I can't prevent your 3rd, but I can harass your bases with Hellion attacks. Hellions are good for map control as well, not as good as Vultures, but I would rate that Hellions > MM when the concern is Map control/Pinning/Harassing.
I read on somewhere that Hellions are cost-effective against Stalkers. That would be awesome but I have a hard time believing that. Could anyone prove that?
Blink play is very good against a mech Terran, but I don't see how can you auto-gg a good Terran player(which I'm not). The Terran can Siege some Tanks near his base to prevent Blink harass at least until some point. Tank Spread is to deal with Chargelots, as well as Blink Stalker attacks.
But overall fighting against Blink Stalkers requires a bit more effort from the Terran than the Protoss.
To be completely honest, I can see mech as a viable build. When I play bio, I'm most concerned about the obvious area damage effects(Colossus, HT), Zealots and Force Fields. I can nullify most of those things with mech(Hellions>Zealots, Mech isn't THAT weak against Storms/Colossi and Force Fields barely touch a standing mech force). Of course mech provides it's own problems, but I don't find them as fearsome as Zealot/Sentry/HT/Colossus is for bio. I don't say that bio isn't viable, but I fear Bio weaknesses more than mech weaknesses.
As for Carriers: Vikings isn't the counter for Carriers, I agree with that. Doing decent against Carriers is enough as I don't require supreme air control that beats everything ever from my Vikings. Carriers don't kill stuff THAT fast(Compare to a couple Colossi killing infantry). They are an immediate threat, but I can let my mech stand there for a moment while my Vikes engage the Carriers.
Phoenix/Carrier may require additional Raxes for Marines. Even Carriers alone may require that.
I'm trying to make mech work as well although I'm only somewhere near 2k level(Don't consider my posts as facts, it will be bad for your health). I can't test this build as much as couple others here because I don't ladder(I can explain why, but I don't bother) and I don't have much people to play with, but:
I use this opener on most maps: 1rax FE(With one gas or gasless, both are fine), get gasses up, Tech Lab on rax(Pump Marines first, testing will help you how many) and get Stim to help hold against early pushes. Get 2 Factories: one with Tech Lab, one with Reactor and research Siege before Pre-Igniter and go whatever you want after that.
I think I can hold early attacks with this opener(with Bunkers of course), even though it's pretty weak against them. Blink rush is very effective against this build especially on Metalopolis and LT, but I think I can hold it(have never tested against a Blink rush, sorry).
I modify this build if my opponent is on close positions on Metalopolis/LT, where I will go 2rax aggression into FE(the same 2rax as against Zerg. I personally like that). SoW is also a map where I need to be cautious. On Shakuras Plateau/Blistering Sands/Jungle Basin in some degree as well because of a possible backdoor attack and because mech is pretty immobile.
I will say this again: Don't take this as an absolute fact. I haven't tested mech in TvP for hundreds of games like some other people for reasons above(The reasons are bad, but deal with it). Also I'm only somewhere at the 2k level so I'm not a good player.
A wall of text, deal with it. Probably full of nothing.
Here are two replays of last nights craftcup EU final in which Goody, who is quite famous for his mechplay, went for straight up mech play against a decent protoss.
I think it really shows som strenghts (very strong and robust ground push w high supply mechball) and weaknesses (really easy to absue the immobility on some maps)....
this is how you should play a mech build ,is still in its infancy but i think is already good(i'm valk by the way) and i know i'm platinum player(i have just started today 1v1 ladder because i love more 2v2) but, i was a B player on bw, so i'm not a total noob, just to let you know :D http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3820/Valk_vs_TOE
I loved the replays. They clearly demonstrate mech is not as dead as I have thought for some time now.
A couple thoughts however. Firstly in most of the games it appears you gained an advantage through either one lucky hellion harass, or by simply having superior macro to your opponent, or both. I get the impression that there are a sizable number of replays you did not care to submit, probably because this build lost to enemies who were your equals (or perhaps betters) in macro. Tanks are simply not as strong as they once were, as they cost 50% more supply and deal less damage compared to brood war. The improved AI is nice, but doesn't actually help against targets like zealots which now take many tank shots to kill.
The general themes of your build seems to be, firstly, a fast expand with 2 bunkers, manned by a reactor barracks. I dig this quite a bit, as in your replays it repelled various sorts of early pokes such as early stalkers trying to punish that expo, with absolutely no success. Next, a gradual build up to 5 factories (1-2 reactor, all others labs), getting first siege then pre-igniter. I see nothing wrong with this, but a small question of whether you might get pre-igniter first, and trust your marines to hold a bit longer so you can open with a much faster, beefier blue flame hellion harass. It seems plausible. Finally you move into getting your third, as well as 3 starports for vikings, one of which has a tech lab for potentially required ravens. Also quite solid. It can hold against carriers (with some difficulty), which was quite impressive. I dig the build a lot.
However there are quite a few weaknesses I see which undermine my belief that this will see professional use unless mech is buffed. Firstly in every game you always entered the big battle with giant supply leads. At least 30 supply up on your opponent, sometimes as much as 60. In a professional game this would not happen under usual circumstances- both players should be able to macro about equally, and the protoss should not be that far behind. What the tanks seemed to do was buffer your advantage, making you lose less supply in each battle because they can bring all their firepower to bear at once very efficiently. This is very interesting to note, that a transition into mass tanks is great for holding onto an existing advantage, but does not appear to give you an advantage by itself.
The major flaw I see is that in fact it seems to do the opposite, since your opponent is left alone for so long they could take a fourth quite easily. None of your opponents in these games availed themselves of this opportunity. Sometimes they were given so much time before you maxed out on tanks, hellions, and vikings, that they could have taken a fifth without too much trouble, but instead chose to make colossi or tech to high templar. Presumably because they thought they were dealing with a typical terran.
This tank based mech play seems to very effectively counter the colossi/HT plays that we are seeing protoss frequently employ because of bio's predominance. It's not that tanks are good against colossi, only that in the numbers players are getting them the tanks can pop them instantly without fear of retaliation. Similarly, the protoss is only getting a couple immortals, and there is just so much tank fire that they get popped immediately. This mech build is an excellent counter-reaction to the protoss' response to heavy bio play. The problem is that none of your replays show a protoss employing the obvious counters to it, such as getting very large numbers of immortals, or building large void ray or carrier fleets. You are fighting an enemy that is poorly equipped to fight against tanks. This replay pack is similar to a protoss player teching directly to high templar against a bio terran, and finding, unsurprisingly, that it is highly effective.
At high levels of play, there will be no ladder fixation on blindly getting lots of gateway with a couple immortals and a couple colossi. If they see you going this sort of mass tank, there will be a countermove, and it will DEMOLISH this build. A tank costs 3 supply and an immortal costs 4. I very much doubt this build could handle a player with 20 immortals, although this many tanks can indeed handle two or so. Similarly, a player going hardcore void ray would probably crush this build, and the protoss has a huge amount of time to scout you, expand freely, and to build whatever they please, so none of these options are entirely unreasonable.
I love the build, but it has pretty clear shortcomings given the nature of mech in starcraft 2, and these shortcomings are not going away unless the game is changed. Still, I intend to try this build for myself a few times to get a better feel for it.
I'm pretty sure 20 immortals will actually lose to 20 tanks because the splash damage rips through the shields almost instantly, unless they are Foxer microed or something.
On January 02 2011 03:42 giuocob wrote: I'm pretty sure 20 immortals will actually lose to 20 tanks because the splash damage rips through the shields almost instantly, unless they are Foxer microed or something.
Yeah but whens the last time you saw a Toss player stack Immortals only...
I'm reasonably sure that a siege tank's splash does not reach beyond one immortal's footprint. A siege tank hitting an immortal will hit nothing else. Even if it's not the case, you can pretty much have one immortal for each tank, and that ratio will always favor the immortals. True, it's a composition you never see because it is unbelievably bad against mass marine or mass marauder. But against mass tank?
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
I think this is a very interesting strategy. Yeah the opponents weren't fantastic and neither was the T (no offense) but I think that just because the opponents weren't the highest caliber it doesn't mean that this isn't a viable strategy. I think this is a good departure from the status quo on TvP and I'm excited to try it out.
I normally 3 rax then expand against Protoss. After watching some streams, I added in the occasional marine/tank build. It's been an effective alternative, especially if the Protoss builds anything on their ramp.
At my level (2250 + Diamond) Terrans have the ability to provide heavy early pressure, which the Protoss normally counters with sentry and FF. But the tanks can siege up and a scan can target the sentries even over FF. Tanks are cost effective against Stalkers and do more DPS than Marauders against Zealots. Of course, the marines are there to kill the zealots, but hey...
What I found to be REALLY cool is that tanks are useful against Colossus and HT. Killing HT before they get in range really hampers them.
On January 02 2011 04:48 out4blood wrote: I normally 3 rax then expand against Protoss. After watching some streams, I added in the occasional marine/tank build. It's been an effective alternative, especially if the Protoss builds anything on their ramp.
At my level (2250 + Diamond) Terrans have the ability to provide heavy early pressure, which the Protoss normally counters with sentry and FF. But the tanks can siege up and a scan can target the sentries even over FF. Tanks are cost effective against Stalkers and do more DPS than Marauders against Zealots. Of course, the marines are there to kill the zealots, but hey...
What I found to be REALLY cool is that tanks are useful against Colossus and HT. Killing HT before they get in range really hampers them.
what you'll find if you continue to mech is that collosi with range are actually the strongest unit protoss has to fight them. if they attack your tank line head on, the tanks only have a range advantage of 4. What ends up happening is all of your tanks don't fire at once, while all the collosi do, so they can pick off 2-3 tanks then go back and recuperate shields. Once they have about 3 - 4 collosi this is really effective and demands the terran to get vikings in rebuttal. I treat collosi as air units now when I mech, it's the most effective way of dealing with them especially since if you get vikings to fight them you're also safe vs any air transitions as well.
Another option is 150 strike cannon thors too, it can be a little micro game of getting the thors in range of the collosi, but they are also useful against immortals.
Meh, I've been convinced. Don't go tank Mech at all. Pros don't do it so why should we I guess.
Tanks cost more and do less damage. another thing is in BW TvP was often considered imba (it wasn't but it always felt easier for toss to win). The marauder despite how much i hate that stupid unit is basically a gift from Blizzard so using it is probably the best thing to do.
I guess if your bellow 2k diamond and want to do this like i did nothings gunna stop you but in Starcraft it's always best to follow the pros. They are Pros after all and not scrubs.
I watched all the replays, and honestly I don't think it's this build that won the game, it's the inexperience of the protoss players with such build that lost them the game. Seriously, I think they got used to the frontal battle advantage in tvp that they have already forgotten the concept of contain and expand to immobile/turtle terran. I saw lots of semi 1 base all-ins, semi 2 base all-ins(expanding only when they fail the frontal assault and lost most army) and very very late upgrades. Getting expansions later than terran is what they never should have done because of terran's MULE.
I think they got used to bio so much that they don't know the correct response to mech. They just save up an army and think they can roll the terran mech like they do to fast expo bio.
I highly doubt this build can go beyond the 2500 diamond level. And I also doubt any decent protoss players would make the same mistakes after a game like this. The hard counter to this build for p is PATIENCE, which is constantly denying terran's expo while expanding themselves and gain the economic advantage.
P.S. I think it's a bit biased when you only post the winning games, which only shows the advantage of this build but not the disadvantage. I didn't see any well executed 4 gate play in the replays(1 with only stalkers which could have been much better with some sentry ff casted) and didn't see good early blink stalker play either. Most of what protoss did are frontal attacks into siege tanks...
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
Good luck moving out with an insanely small number of tanks and getting boned by any mediocre protoss. I obviously had no idea what I was talking about, so i'll let you handle the rest of the mech discussion for me, since you obviously know more than me about it!
I think I understand why lots of the upper tier players don't bother posting here anymore now peace out.
On January 02 2011 06:04 paradisefar wrote: I watched all the replays, and honestly I don't think it's this build that won the game, it's the inexperience of the protoss players with such build that lost them the game. Seriously, I think they got used to the frontal battle advantage in tvp that they have already forgotten the concept of contain and expand to immobile/turtle terran. I saw lots of semi 1 base all-ins, semi 2 base all-ins(expanding only when they fail the frontal assault and lost most army) and very very late upgrades. Getting expansions later than terran is what they never should have done because of terran's MULE.
I think they got used to bio so much that they don't know the correct response to mech. They just save up an army and think they can roll the terran mech like they do to fast expo bio.
I highly doubt this build can go beyond the 2500 diamond level. And I also doubt any decent protoss players would make the same mistakes after a game like this. The hard counter to this build for p is PATIENCE, which is constantly denying terran's expo while expanding themselves and gain the economic advantage.
P.S. I think it's a bit biased when you only post the winning games, which only shows the advantage of this build but not the disadvantage. I didn't see any well executed 4 gate play in the replays(1 with only stalkers which could have been much better with some sentry ff casted) and didn't see good early blink stalker play either. Most of what protoss did are frontal attacks into siege tanks...
Well if you didn't read the post above yours i say fine. Forget it. Mech is stupid. And it's not biased me only posting winning games. It's all I was asked to post. Don't like it don't bloody do it then. Also get you're facts straight. Mech is a "strategy" not a "build"
The 1 rax FE i know for a fact is a good opening build because i saw MakaPrime use it against protoss and he's better than probably 90% of any Terrans on this forum.
The 1 rax FE i know for a fact is a good opening build because i saw MakaPrime use it against protoss and he's better than probably 90% of any Terrans on this forum.
Raiznhell don't completely lose heart. Sure, you didn't completely revolutionize TvP at a stroke. So what? I think there's really something of interest in this new school 5 factory mech style.
This mass tank composition has its weaknesses, but at its core it is an army that the enemy is TOTALLY UNABLE TO DEFEAT heads up without radically altering their unit composition to something very, very nonstandard, like hardcore mass immortal or void ray. Both of these units, it occurs to me, are vulnerable to the same terran unit: the marine. Hmmmm....
In your replays what I'm seeing is an overcommitment to tanks that produces an overly immobile army. However it seems like much of the benefit of having the tanks can be gained without having quite so many of them. In many of the major battles, your tank line is so awesomely deep that the ones at the back never even get the chance to fire. This is very secure, but inefficient, a bit like making too many missile turrets.
The demonstration I see in your replays is that a big tank ball with bunkers in front is actually a practical way to hold off a standard mixed protoss composition that they will typically build when you are fighting them with bio. So the puzzle is how do we push the protoss into getting a composition that will make them unable to attack into the tank line, whereas left to their own devices they would expand all over the map and build immortals or even carriers?
The reason why we are seeing such extensive use of bio is its mobility, particularly when used in conjunction with medivacs. The ability to run about the map, and to drop infantry in the enemy base is too strong to give up. The problem is that in a heads up fight against colossi and storm the infantry stand no chance no matter how many you have, so big armies will always lose to the protoss in the endgame. How do we avoid this problem?
To kill two birds with one stone- have enough tank line that the enemy army will not be able to break it cost effectively. At the same time, harass with small groups of infantry with dropships, emphasizing marines. A dropship or two, escorted by vikings in the wings, can be used to harass as the tank line holds the home front. Blue flame hellions can be included in the drop raids if desired, and if the terrain permits, siege tanks might even be dropped in key locations, such as the ledge on lost temple. The harassment stops the protoss from just expanding everywhere, and even dampens his economy. Using bio offensively forces a mixed composition- he can't mass immortals or void rays- and the resulting composition will be ineffective against tanks.
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
Good luck moving out with an insanely small number of tanks and getting boned by any mediocre protoss. I obviously had no idea what I was talking about, so i'll let you handle the rest of the mech discussion for me, since you obviously no more than me about it!
I think I understand why lots of the upper tier players don't bother posting here anymore now peace out.
You seem to give up on things rather easily, avilo. Perhaps that's a trait that characterizes you?
Regarding the content of your post, obviously if the protoss is staying on 2 bases nobody is forcing you to move out right when the cc finishes into a giant protoss death ball. However, when it does become safe to slow push out to your third, you will have a much faster economy than the P.
Not to mention your tank count doesn't actually suffer from taking a fast third, it's the marines or hellions that lose numbers ( the mineral sinks). This means your tank count doesn't actually slow down by taking a fast third CC.
On January 02 2011 07:12 HiHiByeBye wrote: im at 2200 T. From experience, warp prism + 3 WG shut down any sort of 1-1-1 pretty easily. \
The timing ussually comes b4 you can get your first tank out and just with marines you cant handle zealot stalker.
You bunker will be near your choke, so no where near to help defend.
When protosses rush for warp prisms or blink stalkers that quickly I've played with the idea of building a backup bunker in my mineral line for this sort of thing until the threat passes and you have enough forces to survive it.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to the number of tanks the terran should have though. At least 1 tank if not more should be out by the time a warp prism gets to your base... It's pretty standard to get a tank before starport if you're doing 1-1-1 for safety.
u do not need 30 tank to move out lol, 10 are more than enough , it's possible to get them at about 12:00 , the important thing is to add a big number of hellion, they are good at taking the fire while your tank clean the enemy army...
and with this build you must scout more... really... more scouting is needed with this.
Why are people still convinced Terran mech works? What about mech makes it better than bio+starport? Honestly, only the Thor and Hellions have use, as tanks suck. Also, going mech means you don't have enough gas to support ghosts and/or proper upgrades.
This is not broodwar. In broodwar, tanks killed almost everything in less than 4 shots, most less than 3. It takes something like 14 or 15 shots from a tank to kill an immortal in SC2, 5 to kill a zealot, 8 to kill a colossus, 11(!) to kill an archon. Almost any unit combination a Protoss chooses will break mech. The only thing mech is remotely good against is a pure stalker army, and toss players never make those against Terran because Marauders already kill them better than the pathetic SC2 tanks could ever hope to.
Compare the tank to the marauder. In nearly every way, the marauder is a better and more versatile unit. Pair that with the synergy with marines and ghosts and you'll see why bio is so much better than mech. Sheer DPS alone justifies the decision to use one over the other.
Tanks are 25% more gas-heavy than they were in broodwar. Gas is harder to obtain now as it takes double the workers, and 50 more minerals on that extra refinery. Early pushes are stronger now, and more easily held with bio than mech (in fact, it's impossible to hold most all-ins with mech).
Protoss air dominates now, not just lategame carriers or arbiters. Voidray builds give bio a run for its money, but they completely STOMP mech. Phoenixes go from viable support against bio to incredibly versatile and effective against mech. Carriers up their destruction 3 fold: with so much gas invested in tanks, no real AA threat exists.
HT tech works amazingly despite the nerf to storm. The nerf was balanced by the warp-in ability, so a toss who goes heavy into HTs and gateways will have an ability to reinforce better than you. The Protoss will then win in a war of attrition, the very kind mech itself was intended to dominate. On the other hand, DT tech forces wasted money. Turrets, thinning of defense, attention, scans; while your DT using opponent takes the map and an economic lead. Unfortunately, scans are now intimately tied to the Terran economy, while engineering bays can no longer spot (and turrets are more expensive too!)
And finally we have robo tech. Immortals are quite literally antimech. If I went 4 robo 1 gate off two bases and never made any unit out of my gateway I'd probably still win against a mech user. Immortals have the ability to 3 shot a tank with upgrades. In numbers, only ghosts, stimmed MM and banshees can effectively take them down. Off four Chronoed robos, it'd be hard to keep the numbers low. Colossi are pretty scary too. Vikings are harder to get when you've invested gas in buildings and units that 1.suck and 2.don't shoot air to begin with. In a bad engagement your only choice is to suicide because tanks are helpless when you're sieges and you get outmaneuvered. At least bio can run when colossi engage, giving free shots to the Vikings as the toss attempts a reposition.
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
love how you don't mention turret's gas cost, and warp prisms don t die fast at all. I have no idea why you would think this.
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
love how you don't mention turret's gas cost, and warp prisms don t die fast at all. I have no idea why you would think this.
Turrets don't cost any gas? lol They are 100 minerals. That's it. unless you buy Terran building upgrades you don't spend any gas on turrets. And yes Warp Prisms do die very fast. they take 5 or 6 shots from a missile turret and those things fire super fast not to mention all the marines I'd have lying about.
On January 02 2011 09:54 RaizSucksLOL wrote: check your inbox
LOL well done Civets you have proven that you are the lowest of the low. You made a dummy account on TL, searched for me, and PMed me huge harassment paragraphs.
You really got nuthin better to do but make me laugh.
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy.
Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways.
The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it.
Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p
Meh I'm not out to prove anything except to like low levels (including me) that say things like X strategy is IMPOSSIBLE. Well if you're saying that I don't know how you can play Starcraft especially if you're not a Professional. Even Korean professionals do kooky things that win against other professionals. Example JSLZenith (or somebody on the Zenith team) was owning Zergs by just making masses of Ravens. It was cool to watch and you would never think just massing 1 spell caster unit would be that effective. Like even C+ and B level players in BW never always did what the pro-league players would. You can still see some pretty odd stuff on iCCup.
I don't think or expect any type of revolution of Mech play like I'm not fantasy . Mech is obviously weaker that massed Marauders unfortunately. Biomech seems to be the thing recently anyways :/. Personally I'm not satisfied unless my Protoss opponents die in a sea of tank shells rather than being pelted by odd little grenades that don't blow up yet magically slow things down shot by obnoxious little men in fat suits lol XD.
But I have had people play against me lately knowing what I'm going for before the game starts and they've managed to serve me so...
@Raiznhell, tons of respect for putting practiced ideas and real examples out there. Balance whining is fun, but this is better. It's got me working on heavier mech play.
Rediscovering the hellion has been great. I'd forgotten how crazy it can make your opponent to have those things running around.
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy.
Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways.
The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it.
Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p
Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus.
You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss.
When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is:
A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game.
If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or.
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy.
Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways.
The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it.
Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p
Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus.
You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss.
When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is:
A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game.
If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or.
No, you also fail to notice that carrier and void ray are good on the ground. They do not sacrifice anything by going such such units. The fact that they can attack air and ground make them good and you never sacrifice a thing by going them. On the other hand, viking, will force you to choose to completely fight in the air.This isnt starcraft 1 where you think viking are goliath and can act as both role. Viking suck more on the ground than their goliath form and you have to upgrade air stuff instead of vechicle stuff to improve them. Getting +1 armor to air just for viking is HUGE but its a super investment since you really want to avoid doing such thing to begin with. The minute you start making viking your anti ground already weak. You must constantly keep making tanks cause if he is smart, he will try to trade army.
Protoss can replenish their army way faster then terran because they can warp in units. Also if they do trade army, your tank count will drop dramatically and once they drop and you have committed to making viking as well, your production on tanks will accumulate at an even slower rate. Dont forget that he will have the superior economy because you have gone mech and he will abuse your immobility and he can sacrifice a bit more as well. Also, you have committed to soo much turret for every inch you push that your ground is also weaker.
I do not know where you get the illusion that going carriers or void rays make the toss ground weaker. But it dramatically makes the terran ground weaker and is exactly wat the toss want. That enough, has paid for the protoss air investment itself.
Lastly, we can sit here and argue all day but if we look at all the pro replay, like Rain has said, we can notice that NONE goes mech vs toss. Wonder why? It is because of exactly what i have explain and what happens when high level protoss meet mech. Its easy to stop and has too much weakness. If you play it 100% correct, you still only have a 50% chance to win. Protoss player will pick you apart and to pieces. People just think that this build can work and is viable because they think this is something new that hasnt been toggled with before. Well, it has and it had been toggled with since beta on and off. It has been studied left and right by top players. The only noticeable terran that still goes mech against toss is a german player name GoOdy. Even still, people has studied him and he has not have much success in a while. I am not sure if he has given up on mech already. If you want to prove that mech is viable, then just post 5 replay of yourself going mech against GOOD protoss. WHen i mean good protoss I mean atleast 3000+ diamond.
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy.
Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways.
The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it.
Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p
Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus.
You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss.
When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is:
A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game.
If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or.
No, you also fail to notice that carrier and void ray are good on the ground. They do not sacrifice anything by going such such units. The fact that they can attack air and ground make them good and you never sacrifice a thing by going them. On the other hand, viking, will force you to choose to completely fight in the air.This isnt starcraft 1 where you think viking are goliath and can act as both role. Viking suck more on the ground than their goliath form and you have to upgrade air stuff instead of vechicle stuff to improve them. Getting +1 armor to air just for viking is HUGE but its a super investment since you really want to avoid doing such thing to begin with. The minute you start making viking your anti ground already weak. You must constantly keep making tanks cause if he is smart, he will try to trade army.
Protoss can replenish their army way faster then terran because they can warp in units. Also if they do trade army, your tank count will drop dramatically and once they drop and you have committed to making viking as well, your production on tanks will accumulate at an even slower rate. Dont forget that he will have the superior economy because you have gone mech and he will abuse your immobility and he can sacrifice a bit more as well. Also, you have committed to soo much turret for every inch you push that your ground is also weaker.
I do not know where you get the illusion that going carriers or void rays make the toss ground weaker. But it dramatically makes the terran ground weaker and is exactly wat the toss want. That enough, has paid for the protoss air investment itself.
Lastly, we can sit here and argue all day but if we look at all the pro replay, like Rain has said, we can notice that NONE goes mech vs toss. Wonder why? It is because of exactly what i have explain and what happens when high level protoss meet mech. Its easy to stop and has too much weakness. If you play it 100% correct, you still only have a 50% chance to win. Protoss player will pick you apart and to pieces. People just think that this build can work and is viable because they think this is something new that hasnt been toggled with before. Well, it has and it had been toggled with since beta on and off. It has been studied left and right by top players. The only noticeable terran that still goes mech against toss is a german player name GoOdy. Even still, people has studied him and he has not have much success in a while. I am not sure if he has given up on mech already. If you want to prove that mech is viable, then just post 5 replay of yourself going mech against GOOD protoss. WHen i mean good protoss I mean atleast 3000+ diamond.
Sure, I'll grant that carriers and void rays are good against ground units as long as they dont have several vikings plowing through their hull. In the event that they do however, carriers and void rays become quite garbage. Especially if there is marine cover on the ground to prevent a chase. The vikings can just sit beyond the protosses range and give volley after volley.
You don't need to cover turrets across the entire map, you only need them when the protoss first makes the switch to air to buy time to get your viking count up, then they are no longer necessary except as a precaution.
The "illusion" I'm under that going air makes the toss ground weaker is because if you spend money on a stargate and money on carriers (350-250 each!) you have less money to spend on ground units. See the math? And furthermore, since tanks and hellions are cost-efficient vs protoss gateway units, the terran can spend equally as much or slightly less on ground as the toss yet be stronger because of his composition. This means that as long as terran survives the air tech switch without losing all his tanks he has a considerable lead.
What it comes down to is terran has the option of putting a reactor on the starports which means it only costs 50/50 for an extra starport, whereas if protoss wants to keep up they have to spend 150-100 on each one. Vikings produce faster and have a longer range, and deal very high burst damage.
The problem with vikings is that they are a specialist unit where the goliath was the ultimate generalist. The viking is more expensive than the goliath was, deals less damage on the ground despite not being able to switch easily between ground and air attacks, and is squishier considering damage inflation as well as its lack of armor (although it counts as Armored). And most importantly it is made from a different structure than tanks- you need starports for vikings. The thor just does pitiful damage against air (vs light, 48 damage per 3 seconds = 16 dps. Less than half that against armor). This leaves the marine as the main anti-air unit in the terran army, and the terran's reliance on the marine means you will have lots of barracks, which means you must build out of those barracks constantly, and before you know it you're going marines-with-some-tanks rather than mech.
I've tried this a couple times, and I must say my suspicions have been confirmed. Heavy factory play is no longer viable as it was in brood war as the factory is no longer a well rounded production structure, and getting vehicle upgrades no longer improves an entire stable composition the way infantry upgrades do. Simply put, mech builds take time. This means your opponent has time to react, and as a result such a build is only worth doing if it is stable against almost any reaction. Which, unfortunately, 5 factory is not. They will simply get air and you lose. Or they will get immortals and you lose. Or they will exploit your immobility with drops as they could even if you had the ability to respond to any of their compositions. Mech's strength was its ability to fight a variety of compositions head on and win, so it didn't matter that it took time. That strength is now absent, and hardcore mech will be dead until it gets it back.
It seems the dev team really wanted to discourage classic brood war style mech given the new terran setup, and also the counters both sides now have to mech, such as immortals, void rays, brood lords, and the fact that mutas are an effective counter to the factory in general. Give terran the goliath in heart of the swarm and then we'll talk about 5 factory mech builds again.
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy.
Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways.
The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it.
Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p
Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus.
You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss.
When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is:
A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game.
If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or.
No, you also fail to notice that carrier and void ray are good on the ground. They do not sacrifice anything by going such such units. The fact that they can attack air and ground make them good and you never sacrifice a thing by going them. On the other hand, viking, will force you to choose to completely fight in the air.This isnt starcraft 1 where you think viking are goliath and can act as both role. Viking suck more on the ground than their goliath form and you have to upgrade air stuff instead of vechicle stuff to improve them. Getting +1 armor to air just for viking is HUGE but its a super investment since you really want to avoid doing such thing to begin with. The minute you start making viking your anti ground already weak. You must constantly keep making tanks cause if he is smart, he will try to trade army.
Protoss can replenish their army way faster then terran because they can warp in units. Also if they do trade army, your tank count will drop dramatically and once they drop and you have committed to making viking as well, your production on tanks will accumulate at an even slower rate. Dont forget that he will have the superior economy because you have gone mech and he will abuse your immobility and he can sacrifice a bit more as well. Also, you have committed to soo much turret for every inch you push that your ground is also weaker.
I do not know where you get the illusion that going carriers or void rays make the toss ground weaker. But it dramatically makes the terran ground weaker and is exactly wat the toss want. That enough, has paid for the protoss air investment itself.
Lastly, we can sit here and argue all day but if we look at all the pro replay, like Rain has said, we can notice that NONE goes mech vs toss. Wonder why? It is because of exactly what i have explain and what happens when high level protoss meet mech. Its easy to stop and has too much weakness. If you play it 100% correct, you still only have a 50% chance to win. Protoss player will pick you apart and to pieces. People just think that this build can work and is viable because they think this is something new that hasnt been toggled with before. Well, it has and it had been toggled with since beta on and off. It has been studied left and right by top players. The only noticeable terran that still goes mech against toss is a german player name GoOdy. Even still, people has studied him and he has not have much success in a while. I am not sure if he has given up on mech already. If you want to prove that mech is viable, then just post 5 replay of yourself going mech against GOOD protoss. WHen i mean good protoss I mean atleast 3000+ diamond.
Sure, I'll grant that carriers and void rays are good against ground units as long as they dont have several vikings plowing through their hull. In the event that they do however, carriers and void rays become quite garbage. Especially if there is marine cover on the ground to prevent a chase. The vikings can just sit beyond the protosses range and give volley after volley.
You don't need to cover turrets across the entire map, you only need them when the protoss first makes the switch to air to buy time to get your viking count up, then they are no longer necessary except as a precaution.
The "illusion" I'm under that going air makes the toss ground weaker is because if you spend money on a stargate and money on carriers (350-250 each!) you have less money to spend on ground units. See the math? And furthermore, since tanks and hellions are cost-efficient vs protoss gateway units, the terran can spend equally as much or slightly less on ground as the toss yet be stronger because of his composition. This means that as long as terran survives the air tech switch without losing all his tanks he has a considerable lead.
What it comes down to is terran has the option of putting a reactor on the starports which means it only costs 50/50 for an extra starport, whereas if protoss wants to keep up they have to spend 150-100 on each one. Vikings produce faster and have a longer range, and deal very high burst damage.
Ok, lets assume you are correct. If this strategy IS viable, why has it not shown itself in tournament. Wouldnt you think more people would use this strategy by now if it is viable? Avilo posted his ghost mech build since early/late beta and if it really is viable wouldnt many different variation would of come up on team liquid? Why have we yet to see it in GSL? MLG? This is alone enough to prove that it does not work.
I am not making assumption that top tier player have tried this and studied it. They truly have studied it. A well known player would be PainUser. I watched his stream when he used to mech against protoss. I watch for hours as he played it out and the many variation. He gave it a try because back then his TvP was his weakest. Then he suddenly stopped. I dont know why he stop but i figured that the reason he stop is because it wasnt viable. Avilo, the first one to try it was committed to try and make it work and then gave up as well. Trump, also tried it a few time and gave up as well. Why do they not try it at tournament? Simple answer is that the strategy is too risky and unreliable that they refuse to risk it at any tournament. Only one player name GoOdy use this build and he the one person that plays mech still. Not many people know of him because he has not have much success in large tournament.
Perhaps I am being too hard on this strategy and just being bias since it does not work for me but until it is shown to be viable and is proven that it can win tournament or is seen in the Top 200, then it is not viable.
On January 01 2011 17:49 giuocob wrote: A lot of people are saying that mech is inferior because going bio all game long is too good not to do. However, As the previous 34 page QQ thread showed, straight bio runs into severe problems late game]. If people were to open mech or at least transition into it as the game progresses, a lot of those problems would disappear. Sure new ones might open up, but a pure gateway army wouldn't kill a mech based army like it does to bio. That's why I have little respect for the comments of those people in the other thread; they throw all their resources into a strategy that's meant to kill the opponent in the midgame, then act surprised when it doesn't work, and they walk into the late game at a disadvantage. You have to PLAY for the late game if you want to excel there, not just stumble into it after a big failed 2-base play. Mech seems like it could be a good way to play for a winning lategame, even if it comes as a transition from early bio stuff.
@avilo: As a protoss, I have a really tough time dealing with mech, which is why I think it's a good strategy. I haven't experienced any of the free advantages that you claim protosses get. So what are some general rules I should be using to get these easy wins over mech? I don't care how OP you think protoss units are, you couldn't 1-A units into large groups of tanks in BW and you can't do it now. Even chargelots get decimated by a well defended tank line before they can kill any more than the front line. I've tried going air, which are the only times I've been able to successfully defeat it, but quite often it just gets shut down by a combination of vikings, turrets, and marines. And as long as the terran isn't just leaving all his tanks in his base like a gold league tank masser, you're not going to get all these free expansions. Is there something obvious I'm missing in all of this?
The point is that terran can not really push out without a good number of tanks. By good number of tanks i am saying about 10 or so tanks if he is going pure mech. Otherwise, a good number of gateway unit + immortal could smash him like nothing. This will give you time to easily take an easily third. Since mech also need 2 base to be efficient so when they take their natural you could technically take your third right away and there nothing he can really do. By the time he has a large army of tanks (which he shouldnt to begin with), you have a much better economy and can easily trade units and come out on top. Your probably not abusing the immobility of mech. If you dont want to be passive then just go quick blink play and you can gg him right off the bat. Lastly, a late game transition to carriers usually end mech play if you been abusing his immobility and decide to transition to carriers the game is basically yours and it is not uncommon to do so. Viking do NOT counter carriers. They only do decent against carriers.
It's not like terran can build command centers in his base or anything. The best way to play mech is to build an extremely fast third command centre yourself, relying on siege tanks to fortify your position. If the protoss takes a fast third, who cares? You have a fast third too. Just because you need big tank numbers to move out doesn't mean you can't build the command center in advance, in anticipation of that tank count.
There's also the fact that there's no rule declaring terran needs X amount of tanks to move out. If protoss expands a rediculous amount of times, or for some reason doesn't have units, go kill him.
It seems that the problem avilo was having is that he would stay on 2 bases when the protoss is expanding, and then only expanding once his tank count was high rather than while its building up. You want the CC to finish as you have enough tanks to move out and fortify the base. It's really not rocket science.
Regarding the late game carrier switch, vikings are lower tech and can be produced much earlier, which means that with proper scouting the viking count should far exceed the carrier count and be sufficient to snipe them. This game isn't played in a vacuum. The biggest problem with mech by far is getting your first expansion up safely with a siege expand. That is the most dangerous part of the game and the rest is just keeping up with scouting and shenanigans.
Yes Avilo, I feel your pain and because of that I will explain it the best i can. Yes, we know you can build a CC in your own base but you can not expand easily anyways because by the time you get a seige is about the same time he has an immortal out. You are basically contained. Early game, if he does do an early immortal push you are pretty screwed. You are basically stuck on 2 base because the map does not favor expanding. For example on Xelnaga, getting a expansion out is already tough enough with the wide open range. Then you must secure your third usually at the gold which is super freakin even more wide open for charge lots to flank you immortal just to stomp you. So you are force to stay on 2 base and pushing out any earlyer with low tank count would be death. He could easily get a third up knowing you cant do anything about it. Once he get a third and saturate is when you start to push out and by then you are going to get stomped because by now he knows your unit composition and prepare charge lots and everything with his superior economy.
Regarding viking and carriers is that if you for one second start going viking, your ground will be extremely weak. Even if you do manage to kill all the carriers, you have invested in sooooo much for viking that are now completely useless and have no purpose but to land on the ground and die once he transition back to immortals and charge lots and ground units. Also phoenix can defeat viking cost for cost as well and are not completely useless cause they can lift tanks, unlike viking who are completely useless as i have stated after they do their job. Therefore he could technically go a pure air army and your viking do not stand a chance or just transition back to ground. The fact is is that you must match your army composition almost PERFECTLY to be able to play mech. Even then, you have only even the odds and the protoss still have alot of control of the game and can punish you in alot of ways.
The protoss can go 3 tech path at the start of the game Twilight council, robo bay, or stargate. All these 3 will punish mech early. Twilight council for fast blink = gg. Robo bay for quick immortal and map control and expand cause you can not kill immortal early with small tank count. Stargate for aggressive air play to force terran to go starport and delay his tank count and expand more as well. The true way to play mech is to not play mech and then transition into it late game. Even then, you need to end the game pretty fast before the toss realize the transition and transition into air to counter it.
Rain, dont give up hope on the mech play. Were just giving you realistic facts that all mech user has experienced when going mech and stuff for you to consider when trying it. Yes, those protoss player were total noob and got rofl-stomped cause they didnt know how to play against mech in the first place. If you truly wana find a way to play mech then find a way to play mech. No one is stopping you and prove us all wrong :p
Your ideas of the terran vs protoss air battle is completely backwards. Once my vikings have killed all your void rays/phoenixes the investment has paid for itself, putting me in a winning position. Landing them and killing gateway units as well is just a bonus.
You also fail to note that army strength is relative. If the protoss is going for void rays/phoenixes/carriers, his ground army will be sacrificed, so sacrificing my mech ball a little for anti air is completely the proper response. Tanks + hellions will always be cost effective against gateway units which means as long as the terran can survive the sky battle, his ground army will be superior and free to inch forward towards the protoss.
When I mech and the protoss goes carriers, my instant response is to unsiege all my tanks and start moving towards his base. I take my fast moving vikings and try to pick off whatever carriers I can as they move slowly towards his ground army. I set up turrets on my push and I'll have as many starports starports for vikings as I need to survive the tech switch. What this does is:
A) protoss has to use the carriers to survive before he has a fleet of them + interceptors B) Marines can shoot interceptors or whatever immortals the toss has while vikings snipe carriers C) Carriers can get intercepted before they reach the main toss army due to the speed of the vikings D) Toss can't attack into your tank ball because of the turrets, marines, and vikings lying in wait. This leads to E) Your tank ball inches towards him, eventually forcing a confrontation and winning the game.
If he tries to base trade in this situation your vikings chase down his slow ass carriers and then you can either just kill his base or go defend either or.
No, you also fail to notice that carrier and void ray are good on the ground. They do not sacrifice anything by going such such units. The fact that they can attack air and ground make them good and you never sacrifice a thing by going them. On the other hand, viking, will force you to choose to completely fight in the air.This isnt starcraft 1 where you think viking are goliath and can act as both role. Viking suck more on the ground than their goliath form and you have to upgrade air stuff instead of vechicle stuff to improve them. Getting +1 armor to air just for viking is HUGE but its a super investment since you really want to avoid doing such thing to begin with. The minute you start making viking your anti ground already weak. You must constantly keep making tanks cause if he is smart, he will try to trade army.
Protoss can replenish their army way faster then terran because they can warp in units. Also if they do trade army, your tank count will drop dramatically and once they drop and you have committed to making viking as well, your production on tanks will accumulate at an even slower rate. Dont forget that he will have the superior economy because you have gone mech and he will abuse your immobility and he can sacrifice a bit more as well. Also, you have committed to soo much turret for every inch you push that your ground is also weaker.
I do not know where you get the illusion that going carriers or void rays make the toss ground weaker. But it dramatically makes the terran ground weaker and is exactly wat the toss want. That enough, has paid for the protoss air investment itself.
Lastly, we can sit here and argue all day but if we look at all the pro replay, like Rain has said, we can notice that NONE goes mech vs toss. Wonder why? It is because of exactly what i have explain and what happens when high level protoss meet mech. Its easy to stop and has too much weakness. If you play it 100% correct, you still only have a 50% chance to win. Protoss player will pick you apart and to pieces. People just think that this build can work and is viable because they think this is something new that hasnt been toggled with before. Well, it has and it had been toggled with since beta on and off. It has been studied left and right by top players. The only noticeable terran that still goes mech against toss is a german player name GoOdy. Even still, people has studied him and he has not have much success in a while. I am not sure if he has given up on mech already. If you want to prove that mech is viable, then just post 5 replay of yourself going mech against GOOD protoss. WHen i mean good protoss I mean atleast 3000+ diamond.
Sure, I'll grant that carriers and void rays are good against ground units as long as they dont have several vikings plowing through their hull. In the event that they do however, carriers and void rays become quite garbage. Especially if there is marine cover on the ground to prevent a chase. The vikings can just sit beyond the protosses range and give volley after volley.
You don't need to cover turrets across the entire map, you only need them when the protoss first makes the switch to air to buy time to get your viking count up, then they are no longer necessary except as a precaution.
The "illusion" I'm under that going air makes the toss ground weaker is because if you spend money on a stargate and money on carriers (350-250 each!) you have less money to spend on ground units. See the math? And furthermore, since tanks and hellions are cost-efficient vs protoss gateway units, the terran can spend equally as much or slightly less on ground as the toss yet be stronger because of his composition. This means that as long as terran survives the air tech switch without losing all his tanks he has a considerable lead.
What it comes down to is terran has the option of putting a reactor on the starports which means it only costs 50/50 for an extra starport, whereas if protoss wants to keep up they have to spend 150-100 on each one. Vikings produce faster and have a longer range, and deal very high burst damage.
Ok, lets assume you are correct. If this strategy IS viable, why has it not shown itself in tournament. Wouldnt you think more people would use this strategy by now if it is viable? Avilo posted his ghost mech build since early/late beta and if it really is viable wouldnt many different variation would of come up on team liquid? Why have we yet to see it in GSL? MLG? This is alone enough to prove that it does not work.
I am not making assumption that top tier player have tried this and studied it. They truly have studied it. A well known player would be PainUser. I watched his stream when he used to mech against protoss. I watch for hours as he played it out and the many variation. He gave it a try because back then his TvP was his weakest. Then he suddenly stopped. I dont know why he stop but i figured that the reason he stop is because it wasnt viable. Avilo, the first one to try it was committed to try and make it work and then gave up as well. Trump, also tried it a few time and gave up as well. Why do they not try it at tournament? Simple answer is that the strategy is too risky and unreliable that they refuse to risk it at any tournament. Only one player name GoOdy use this build and he the one person that plays mech still. Not many people know of him because he has not have much success in large tournament.
Perhaps I am being too hard on this strategy and just being bias since it does not work for me but until it is shown to be viable and is proven that it can win tournament or is seen in the Top 200, then it is not viable.
You have no authority to make such claims. Just because a build/strategy hasn't been used in the GSL yet =/= that it's not viable.
I was using GSL as a large tournament as an example. We can even use tournament that happens weekly as an example too. Such as KOTH, GosuCup, and ICCUP tournaments. For a strategy to be viable, it must be proven that it can stand the highest level of play because that is where the strategy can be tested to see the flaws in it. This strategy couldnt even survive the test of High Level diamond players. There is very little chance that it can suddenly become viable in large tournament. I can use this build at bronze level and low diamond and they would be mind boggled by the unit composition and I could win but that doesnt make it viable because of the skill of the player.
I never said this strategy was impossible and that it will never happen in our life time. As of now, mech is not viable vs protoss because no one has been able to prove it yet. Avilo (top 200) was probably the first one to almost prove that it can work with his post on the build order with specific timing and variation but then tank nerf came and thing fell apart rather quickly. Since no one has been able to prove that it can work at the highest level of play and is consistence with it, it is not viable.
On January 03 2011 13:43 SheaR619 wrote: [...] Since no one has been able to prove that it can work at the highest level of play and is consistence with it, it is not viable as of now, 3.1.2011.
fixed.
all u said just proves that the build is not viable as of now. until today, no one has found a way to consistently have success with a real mech based tvp play on the highest level. but u have in no way proven that there dont exist ways to make it viable... which still have to be discovered....
On January 03 2011 13:43 SheaR619 wrote: I was using GSL as a large tournament as an example. We can even use tournament that happens weekly as an example too. Such as KOTH, GosuCup, and ICCUP tournaments. For a strategy to be viable, it must be proven that it can stand the highest level of play because that is where the strategy can be tested to see the flaws in it. This strategy couldnt even survive the test of High Level diamond players. There is very little chance that it can suddenly become viable in large tournament. I never said this strategy was impossible and that it will never happen in our life time. As of now, mech is not viable vs protoss because no one has been able to prove it yet. Avilo (top 200) was probably the first one to almost prove that it can work with his post on the build order with specific timing and variation but then tank nerf came and thing fell apart rather quickly. Since no one has been able to prove that it can work at the highest level of play and is consistence with it, it is not viable.
What killed mech vs P was Protosses learning how to counter it, not the tank nerf (although it did hurt). It was never viable against a Protoss that knew how to deal with it, in the current or past state of the game.
The problem is really that Thors and Vikings are terrible replacements for Goliaths. Add that to the fact that air units in SC2 are much more meaty (do more damage, but are less agile) and you have a terrible time dealing with air.
On January 03 2011 13:43 SheaR619 wrote: [...] Since no one has been able to prove that it can work at the highest level of play and is consistence with it, it is not viable as of now, 3.1.2011.
fixed.
all u said just proves that the build is not viable as of now. until today, no one has found a way to consistently have success with a real mech based tvp play on the highest level. but u have in no way proven that there dont exist ways to make it viable... which still have to be discovered....
Hehe yes, all I really did just prove that it is not viable as of now. The world was once considered to be cube until someone sail around the world and then prove that it was sphere shape
Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find.
On January 03 2011 14:52 Lightspeed wrote: Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find.
Yes GoOdy really surprise me with his mech play. In fact he was the most impressive person as far as mech goes and even winning a few craftcup. When he started winning those I started to believe as well that mech might now be viable but then he totally got stomped at DreamHack by a protoss and then i begin to have doubts again. Craftcup are kind iffy because the players there really depends on who signs up. He is without a doubt really good because he was able to defeat KawaiiRice as well in ladder and hes probably around that level. So it could of been that he was a really good player that got paired up with lesser opponent. He does give hope, but I am still not sure if it is viable since it has not shown great performances in larger tournament.
On January 03 2011 14:52 Lightspeed wrote: Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find.
His hellion harrass timing is the same timing i used in the ghost mech guide ages ago. Sure, if you can somehow kill 40 probes...you're going to win no matter what. Doesn't mean mech is viable though.
The last tournament matches I saw, he won the first game with hellion harrass, and then protoss just abused mech the second two games for freewins.
Doing that was great when tanks being accumulated actually meant something TvP. Now zealot/immortal/collosus rips through them because of the patch where zealots take an extra shot, and tanks do less damage.
And at this point most good Protoss can stop hellion harrass, or if they take any damage, it's not much to matter.
On January 03 2011 14:52 Lightspeed wrote: Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find.
And at this point most good Protoss can stop hellion harrass, or if they take any damage, it's not much to matter.
Well it all depends on what point of the game and if the toss has scouted it. I mean look at DreamHack with Nony.
Nony is one good friggin Toss player and he got totally screwed by hellions.
Plus it's easy to justify suiciding hellions because all you have to do is get 2 probes per hellion to make it worth while and that's just so easy to do with the way their attack works after getting pre-igniter.
I dunno. I just feel that the most potent forms of harassment is banshees and hellions as dropping with MMM can cost you so much more for potentially way less damage.
I've been playing around with your build and have had decent success. The great thing about this strat is that it's obviously a lot stronger midgame and late game than is MM.
I've altered it a few ways.
I make less hellions and more rines too fend off voidrays.
I tend to max out at 4 factories, whereas you go as high as 6 at times.
I'll add another rax if I sense any kind of early agression.
I get ebay quicker and upgrades quicker it seems.
It seemed like you over-produced tanks in a lot of your matches which leaves you susceptible to strong air play.
On January 03 2011 14:52 Lightspeed wrote: Actually, GoOdy (High Europe ladder, EPS player) plays Mech almost exclusively TvP, and he's being successful with it to the point of regularly winning tourneys like CraftCup. Although one might argue that it's rather very diligent probe harras with blueflame hellion that's winning him games than mech per se. Anyway, his playstyle sort of proves that it is possible to play mech TvP, it's just that a certain skillset is needed: positional awareness, thorough scouting, never stopping harrasment, not missing upgrades. Relays should be easy to find.
His hellion harrass timing is the same timing i used in the ghost mech guide ages ago. Sure, if you can somehow kill 40 probes...you're going to win no matter what. Doesn't mean mech is viable though.
The last tournament matches I saw, he won the first game with hellion harrass, and then protoss just abused mech the second two games for freewins.
Doing that was great when tanks being accumulated actually meant something TvP. Now zealot/immortal/collosus rips through them because of the patch where zealots take an extra shot, and tanks do less damage.
And at this point most good Protoss can stop hellion harrass, or if they take any damage, it's not much to matter.
Well, given GoOdy's other traits (sub 100 APM, doesn't hotkey production facilities, queues stuff 5 deep 10 minutes into the game) I think it's amazing that he manages to win games at this level at all. I am not going to argue that mech is in any way more viable or "better" than MMM + V/G, but just as the latter really boils down to perfect ghost control once amulet templars are on the field, it might be ok for the the former to require hellion harass to do a lot of damage to be able to win games with it. I mean, between forcefields, chargelots and storms things don't look to bright for bio either if all you do is stim and kite.
I have to say that air switches are not a problem, but you need to scout them ASAP. Vikings dominate the air and when the speedupgrade for voidrays is removed in the next patch, we can kite those voids forever. You also have to expand and expand and expand and expand when you go mech, so you have your half of the map VERY quickly.
Something very important are the attack upgrades for your tanks. When tanks are +2 and when you hit a critical mass, even immortals can't kill you. +3 is even better. You need to turret up lategame and you need to add some buildings on the map, so units get distracted.
I'm still not done with my mechbuild and I'm learning every day. I played several 3k+ tosses and I won pretty easily (even against those who switched to mass voidray / carrier). The games I lost were due mistake (bad placement, sieged too late, etc) or due FE problems. Yes, as mechterran you need to FE (because you need more gas asap). The problem is that you don't have a critical mass of tanks early game so you are very weak against early agression (and I'm not talking about a 4 gate, but about pushes with 2 collosus, 6 stalkers, some zealots and an immortal around 10:00). I'm still figuring out how to FE safely.
On January 03 2011 17:39 Dente wrote: I have to say that air switches are not a problem, but you need to scout them ASAP. Vikings dominate the air and when the speedupgrade for voidrays is removed in the next patch, we can kite those voids forever. You also have to expand and expand and expand and expand when you go mech, so you have your half of the map VERY quickly.
Something very important are the attack upgrades for your tanks. When tanks are +2 and when you hit a critical mass, even immortals can't kill you. +3 is even better. You need to turret up lategame and you need to add some buildings on the map, so units get distracted.
I'm still not done with my mechbuild and I'm learning every day. I played several 3k+ tosses and I won pretty easily (even against those who switched to mass voidray / carrier). The games I lost were due mistake (bad placement, sieged too late, etc) or due FE problems. Yes, as mechterran you need to FE (because you need more gas asap). The problem is that you don't have a critical mass of tanks early game so you are very weak against early agression (and I'm not talking about a 4 gate, but about pushes with 2 collosus, 6 stalkers, some zealots and an immortal around 10:00). I'm still figuring out how to FE safely.
The thing with mech is your plan HAS to be tailored to the map. A lot of the trouble with FE'ing is getting too greedy and trying to land your CC even though the toss has been 1 basing the entire time. It's better to just build scvs and drop mules in your main while scanning occasionally to see what he's been doing. Usually it's safe to expo once you get siege mode and a couple bunkers down.
On January 03 2011 18:28 QQmonster wrote: The thing with mech is your plan HAS to be tailored to the map. A lot of the trouble with FE'ing is getting too greedy and trying to land your CC even though the toss has been 1 basing the entire time. It's better to just build scvs and drop mules in your main while scanning occasionally to see what he's been doing. Usually it's safe to expo once you get siege mode and a couple bunkers down.
I never land my CC before I see the protoss expanding, but even when he expands, there is a big possibillity of me dying. Like I said: I played on steppes against a toss who went 3gate robo. When I saw him making a nexus, I landed my CC. He came immeadiately with 2 collossae, 1 immortal, 6 stalkers and some zealots at 10:00 (!). There was no way I could stop that with my 4 tanks .
Another scenario: on scrap station: I see a toss going 1 gate FE. No problem since I was 1 rax FE'ing. Strange enough 30 seconds after I landed my CC, he was at my nat with a lot of stalkers (he broke my rocks). I lost some scv's and after a lot of defending, he just crushed me with his army.
I dont know who you guys are playing but the tosses i got just dont let me get my 3rd up and expand all over. There is now way you can safely defend your nat and 3rd with a few tanks at the 10-12 min mark. And if you dont get your 3rd and he gets 4-5 bases then your screwed no matter what you do.
Just saw sksyen attempt a T v P Mech play on his stream. Wasn't effective at all. The Protoss massed Zealot/HT/Archon/Immortals and a few Stalkers and dominated the Thor/Tank/Marines and a few Hellions.
Even with Banshees out. the HT just feedbacked everything and the Raven and yea.. Mass Speedlots clean up Tanks and Thors rather quickly
On January 03 2011 22:01 SecretA5DC wrote: Just saw sksyen attempt a T v P Mech play on his stream. Wasn't effective at all. The Protoss massed Zealot/HT/Archon/Immortals and a few Stalkers and dominated the Thor/Tank/Marines and a few Hellions.
Even with Banshees out. the HT just feedbacked everything and the Raven and yea.. Mass Speedlots clean up Tanks and Thors rather quickly
Theoretically speaking, hellions should be the mineral sink, not marines. Marines won't benefit from the mech upgrades, do not particularly excell at harassing probes, do not counter chargelots, and do not scale with enemy numbers. Sinking gas into banshees and a Raven also cuts into the number of tanks. So yeah, apparently not really committed to mech
On January 03 2011 22:01 SecretA5DC wrote: Just saw sksyen attempt a T v P Mech play on his stream. Wasn't effective at all. The Protoss massed Zealot/HT/Archon/Immortals and a few Stalkers and dominated the Thor/Tank/Marines and a few Hellions.
Even with Banshees out. the HT just feedbacked everything and the Raven and yea.. Mass Speedlots clean up Tanks and Thors rather quickly
Theoretically speaking, hellions should be the mineral sink, not marines. Marines won't benefit from the mech upgrades, do not particularly excell at harassing probes, do not counter chargelots, and do not scale with enemy numbers. Sinking gas into banshees and a Raven also cuts into the number of tanks. So yeah, apparently not really committed to mech
Indeed. Storm and collossus just destroy marines. Hellions are a much better when you mech. Early game you need some rines, but never more then 20. If he goes air you have to scout it very fast (with hellions being everywhere you will most likely spot it). Vikings + turrets and you are fine (turrets are so strong...). Do NOT make banshees or thors, because if you do, you won't be able to reach that critical mass of tanks as fast as possible.
On January 03 2011 22:01 SecretA5DC wrote: Just saw sksyen attempt a T v P Mech play on his stream. Wasn't effective at all. The Protoss massed Zealot/HT/Archon/Immortals and a few Stalkers and dominated the Thor/Tank/Marines and a few Hellions.
Even with Banshees out. the HT just feedbacked everything and the Raven and yea.. Mass Speedlots clean up Tanks and Thors rather quickly
Theoretically speaking, hellions should be the mineral sink, not marines. Marines won't benefit from the mech upgrades, do not particularly excell at harassing probes, do not counter chargelots, and do not scale with enemy numbers. Sinking gas into banshees and a Raven also cuts into the number of tanks. So yeah, apparently not really committed to mech
It's too gas intensive to produce a large number of Tanks and Thors.
Keep in mind Yen had 3 bases including a Gold on Meta and was working on Refineries on all of them. The Protoss had 3 also and as working on a 3.
If I can get a replay I'll put it up. I just find it hard to see it being viable considering none of the Korean pros even bother going in that direction even in late games.
well, if a toss is going air, they will just mix in a few pheonixs. the viking-phenoix battle is about even, and it will prevent them from kiting your voids too much. hopefully more terrans go mech :D maybe then i can use the warp prism more often
On January 03 2011 22:01 SecretA5DC wrote: Just saw sksyen attempt a T v P Mech play on his stream. Wasn't effective at all. The Protoss massed Zealot/HT/Archon/Immortals and a few Stalkers and dominated the Thor/Tank/Marines and a few Hellions.
Even with Banshees out. the HT just feedbacked everything and the Raven and yea.. Mass Speedlots clean up Tanks and Thors rather quickly
Theoretically speaking, hellions should be the mineral sink, not marines. Marines won't benefit from the mech upgrades, do not particularly excell at harassing probes, do not counter chargelots, and do not scale with enemy numbers. Sinking gas into banshees and a Raven also cuts into the number of tanks. So yeah, apparently not really committed to mech
It's too gas intensive to produce a large number of Tanks and Thors.
Keep in mind Yen had 3 bases including a Gold on Meta and was working on Refineries on all of them. The Protoss had 3 also and as working on a 3.
If I can get a replay I'll put it up. I just find it hard to see it being viable considering none of the Korean pros even bother going in that direction even in late games.
Viability at GSL level is not neccesarily viability for everyone else. For me for example, bio play against toss beyond storm is not viable because I lack the Ghost control needed. Likewise Mech is not really viable for me either because I seriously lack game awareness and positioning skills. So for me against Toss the only viable options are a 1 base all in or just rolling over and dying.
I can sort of understand (I think) why no one switches to mech late game, major techswitches are really hard to pull off unless you are really at an advantage anyway. Suddenly throwing down 6 fax and double armory while the game is close? Not going to happen.
At 20:20 a ~5000/3200 Protoss army (Zealots, Archon, Stalkers, Immortals, Voids) clashes into an ~4900/2700 Terran army (Tank, Thor, Hellion, Viking) with 750/550 in reinforcements for T arriving 10 seconds into the fight. At 20:50 Protoss lost everything, T retains half of his army. T had positional advantage imo even though he was not sieged at the beginning of the fight.
Now these two players are certainly not GSL level, also the game was at around 4 or 5 AM and I don't even know if it proves a point, but I think if really commited to, I mean the same level as most players commit to bio with diligent upgrading, dropping, positioning their ghosts an so on and so forth, mech might be as "viable" as anything else. Worst thing, ladder will rank you down until you start winning 50% of your games with it
i only want builds/strategys to work at the highest level of play or else they're not "viable" if the pros don't do it, i won't even give it the light of day
Critical mass of thors is actually good vs void rays btw. dunno why people keep saying thors are bad versus voids. They demolish void rays once you have 7-8+. You make vikings with them too obviously.
But then your opponent can lol @ you and go carrier heavy and you die. TvP is pretty messed up either way you play it, bio tvp or mech tvp.
Bio tvp you have to win before amulet, or play on the teetering edge of everything, where if you don't scan their archives and prepare 1 min b4 with ghosts, you lose to templars.
Or if you somehow don't scout them re-accumulating collosus, and you built ghosts, you die from having no vikings.
And when they build both, you have to have the perfect amount of ghosts, perfect amount of vikings, and hit clutch EMPs before storms go off.
And all of this is assuming you can get into mid-game without too much of a disadvantage now. As discussed in another thread where some 3k+ T says he was having trouble with P...it's true. Protoss can do 3 gate or 4 gate and take their expansion freely ahead of you, whereas you have to 100% be prepared ahead of time with bunkers at your expo because if you didn't build them P can decide to instead mass all sentries/stalker/zealot from their gates and kill you with forcefields a la MC style.
TvP was so much easier b4 when protosses sucked lol, and didn't know their own expansion timings and such.
As for purely mech, if you play perfect it can work...I don't think people should necessarily be discouraged from still trying it. But I think that the best unit compositions for T in SC2 always are gonna be very diverse with not just mech, or not just bio anymore. You have advantages going fully one way or fully the other, but you also have huge disadvantages.
But you are gonna have disadvantages going "diverse" to, with different upgrades and all.
I refuse to believe that "mech" is just a SC BW concept and we will never see it in Sc2 at top level. This marauder kiting/ marine galore can not be the standard for the long term, i hate it as a Terran player and i hate it as a eSports spectator.
Well personally I find Zealots the hardest part in the Protoss army, followed by Phoenixes(after the patch) and Templar(both).
I can find a way to kill Phoenixes and Templar, but Zealots have wrecked my mech, wreck it now, and will wreck it until I find some decent counter to them.
Any suggestions against Zealots as a mech Terran? Hellions are good, but I feel that they just do not cut it. Marauders are kinda a no-no as well, because Tanks take their mobility and they aren't good against Zealots anyway, at least when you can't kite because you have Tanks behind you.
Sc2replayed doesn't work so I don't provide replays for now, but GSL Aiur Garden seems a decent map for mech.
Going Mech while facing practice partners the hardest thing to face was void rays because even if i could kill them it left me very vulnerable. Now you don't have to get crazy amounts of marines and vikings because you'll be able to kite the Void Rays much much easier. I haven't been able to play for over a week though so I'm just getting back into things.
On January 13 2011 04:08 Airact wrote: Well personally I find Zealots the hardest part in the Protoss army, followed by Phoenixes(after the patch) and Templar(both).
I can find a way to kill Phoenixes and Templar, but Zealots have wrecked my mech, wreck it now, and will wreck it until I find some decent counter to them.
Any suggestions against Zealots as a mech Terran? Hellions are good, but I feel that they just do not cut it. Marauders are kinda a no-no as well, because Tanks take their mobility and they aren't good against Zealots anyway, at least when you can't kite because you have Tanks behind you.
Sc2replayed doesn't work so I don't provide replays for now, but GSL Aiur Garden seems a decent map for mech.
Theoretically, Marauders to slow, Helions to fry sounds good, but I'm not a Terran player so take it with a pinch of salt. Perhaps just enough Marauders to slow a ball of chargelots? Like perhaps 10-12? If you have 7-8 blue flame helions, Zealots should die fast if you micro well. (Ofcourse, in a purely perfect world where everything goes well, but I don't think so)
its pretty crazy the recent plays I'v been seeing from terrans. In the early game they are bunkered up with a tank or two out and are consolidating their thor count, while getting armour plating. Then back to Siege tanks. Mixed in with a medium number of marines with +3 dmg. The Mech play Iv been seeing even as a random makes my TvT bioball/tank dead. PvT Immortal/collosus dead. Even on Metalopolis as zerg, i took like 4 bases, and my banes/muta harass/roach play failed. Didn't get a chance to tech to broodlords because there were 3-4 thors with tank/marine back-up plowing down my expansions.
On January 14 2011 03:04 ScythedBlade wrote: Massing hellion tank will rape protoss ground armies =( Throw in a few vikings to pick off any few air units and it because very hard for Protoss.
You would think it would...but in an actual game, the protoss just 1a's into your ball of units and kills everything.
When you try to play mech enough, and you lose games from protoss literally walking into your sieged tank army, then you'll realize why mech doesn't work anymore.
On January 14 2011 03:04 ScythedBlade wrote: Massing hellion tank will rape protoss ground armies =( Throw in a few vikings to pick off any few air units and it because very hard for Protoss.
You would think it would...but in an actual game, the protoss just 1a's into your ball of units and kills everything.
When you try to play mech enough, and you lose games from protoss literally walking into your sieged tank army, then you'll realize why mech doesn't work anymore.
BS. I lose most of my games against mech by trying to attack into it and getting roasted by everything.
I tried these builds alot recently. Its really hard not to lose to stupid shit and you have to play a really refinded build otherwise you lose to all sort of stuff like blinkstalkers earlygame or warpprisms.
You need alot of harassment to make this work but if you are able to get your third base up without beeing abused... its extremely great because almost nothing beats it lategame if you have good timing and scouting with your banshees/blueflame hellions.
On January 14 2011 03:04 ScythedBlade wrote: Massing hellion tank will rape protoss ground armies =( Throw in a few vikings to pick off any few air units and it because very hard for Protoss.
You would think it would...but in an actual game, the protoss just 1a's into your ball of units and kills everything.
When you try to play mech enough, and you lose games from protoss literally walking into your sieged tank army, then you'll realize why mech doesn't work anymore.
BS. I lose most of my games against mech by trying to attack into it and getting roasted by everything.
Because you do not know how to play against mech. Get a very early 3ed, maybe even 4th. Get charge, blink, imortal with a million warpgates. If it lasts long enough, transition to carriers.
Well Jinro just Jinrolled MC using Mech. Should prove at least something to the can't-do attitude people in here . And he did it again in a second game.
now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas.
Hmmm, MC came out on top with the exchange. He had more harvestor and was able to deny the banshee farely well. They both came up fairly even on worker count with MC slightly ahead. So you cant really say that the reason he lost was because of a fail 4 gate.
Dont forget jinro interview guys. He said it depends on the map alot and defintely on those 2 map it was pretty good. Close position LT is beautiful for mech because once you set the gold up you can have a super strong contain. The close position has a weird loopy shape with the gold in the middle and this make good spot for tanks + plantery. Immortal will have to walk around to hit tanks. On scrap, there is a rock you can break down that shrink the distance down amazingly. Also dont forget that void doesnt move fast no more so they can be beaten. But yes, jinro also said he got the build down and it prove to be successful. So i gotta say, it is really good. Now i am some wat convice that mech might be plausible. But the new GSL map will be bigger and thus mech will continue to be less effective?
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
I highly doubt surprise factor played into it THAT much. I mean sure it affected his opening but he should have figured out Jinro's strategy pretty early on. I mean he made the ideal counters. Zealots, immortals and Air units. Don't think surprise played a huge deal in MC's loss.
Also HTs are a horrible choice to fight Mech as the tanks out-range them and the hellions can pick them off in groups and such. Just my experience anyways.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
Did you even watch the gsl?
MC's 4 gate was quote in quote "all in" but did more than enough damage to pay for itself. It was like 25 probes to 15 scvs... I don't really know what you mean by "transitioned" into mech considering he only ever made the one barracks then started a factory and starport... he never even made a marauder or got stim. The carriers would have won MC the game but Jinro spotted them and made a real transition into vikings, getting 2 reactor starports.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
I highly doubt surprise factor played into it THAT much. I mean sure it affected his opening but he should have figured out Jinro's strategy pretty early on. I mean he made the ideal counters. Zealots, immortals and Air units. Don't think surprise played a huge deal in MC's loss.
Also HTs are a horrible choice to fight Mech as the tanks out-range them and the hellions can pick them off in groups and such. Just my experience anyways.
actually HT does fairly well against mech. Since HT cause alot of gas you can make zealot. 2 storm well kill tanks i think and that pretty good and tank just sit there and take the hit. HT are better than collosus imo since collosus are kinda vulnerable to viking as well. viking + tanks, both really long range unit wailing at collosus, they drop fast. HT as long as you spread them out they do fairly well. You can argue blueflame own both HT and zealots but if you position your HT properly then it not too bad.
But the main reason why he didnt get HT was because by the time he does get HT, jinro contain would of been unbreakable. Since jinro already began spreading his tanks out + bunker for marine so storm wouldnt be too effective. I dont think storm would of been the answer in this situation. Once the contain is up, he will run some unit to that 9 oclock and just completely dismantles it and it would be gg nonetheless. MC overextended himself when he first broke the contain and lost to many immortals. If he backed off to regain those shield.....the game would of been different.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
I highly doubt surprise factor played into it THAT much. I mean sure it affected his opening but he should have figured out Jinro's strategy pretty early on. I mean he made the ideal counters. Zealots, immortals and Air units. Don't think surprise played a huge deal in MC's loss.
Also HTs are a horrible choice to fight Mech as the tanks out-range them and the hellions can pick them off in groups and such. Just my experience anyways.
FIrst of all, Jinro has never played against MC with this build.
Second, obviously yes, surprise did play into it. MC mismicroed against Jinro. How often do you see that? You make mistakes when you're caught off guard and you're desperately trying to think of a solution under pressure, on the fly. Look at any of the games where this has happened. Idra vs Clide, Clide panicked. Jinro vs Check, Jinro panicked. You can't come up with a counter build to something when you've just been rolled by it 10 minutes previously, especially not in the NEXT game right after. MC did not know what to do, so he 4-gated.
I have NEVER seen MC 4 gate a Terran. Hell, it's well known that 4 gate is vastly inferior against Terran than against Zerg or Protoss, so it's obvious that MC was hoping to end the game with his own surprise factor. It backfired.
Third, no, MC did not make the proper counters. There were 0 colossus in the game on scrap station. Colossus can pick apart tank lines, and they do pretty well against thors too. You can abuse the range advantage vs Thors. Immortals get stomped by strike cannon, and it was over when MC went carriers. The game was over because they take so damn long to create, they're defeated soundly by the composition Jinro ALREADY had, and their sheer cost makes the Protoss ground army very weak.
WTF? Zealots? I saw MC make maybe 5 zealots at most in the game on Scrap station, and that was with the 4 gate. He never got a twilight council. No blink, no charge, no zealots. I doubt mass stalker would have really helped, but chargelots definitely would have. They're by far the best counter to thors (NOT immortals, immortals get raped by marines and Thors do pretty decently vs them too, because thors have 2 attacks and strike cannon)
I mean, honestly, if MC just had 6 gates pumping zealots, and made anything else he wanted, he would have won. Instead, he didn't have enough gateway units and he got stomped.
And again, look at Mana vs Naama. Mana owns Naama's mech composition several times with storm. He gets contained on one base and comes back to just utterly destroy Naama because he can storm tank lines that cannot avoid the guaranteed 80 damage. If you storm 2 tanks with 1 HT, the HT has paid for himself. HTs also don't die to 2 tank shots, so if you rush a tank line with chargelot/HT, you can break it very easily because the storms essentially halve tank HP and chargelots distract and cause collateral damage. MC displayed neither of these things.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
I highly doubt surprise factor played into it THAT much. I mean sure it affected his opening but he should have figured out Jinro's strategy pretty early on. I mean he made the ideal counters. Zealots, immortals and Air units. Don't think surprise played a huge deal in MC's loss.
Also HTs are a horrible choice to fight Mech as the tanks out-range them and the hellions can pick them off in groups and such. Just my experience anyways.
FIrst of all, Jinro has never played against MC with this build.
Second, obviously yes, surprise did play into it. MC mismicroed against Jinro. How often do you see that? You make mistakes when you're caught off guard and you're desperately trying to think of a solution under pressure, on the fly. Look at any of the games where this has happened. Idra vs Clide, Clide panicked. Jinro vs Check, Jinro panicked. You can't come up with a counter build to something when you've just been rolled by it 10 minutes previously, especially not in the NEXT game right after. MC did not know what to do, so he 4-gated.
I have NEVER seen MC 4 gate a Terran. Hell, it's well known that 4 gate is vastly inferior against Terran than against Zerg or Protoss, so it's obvious that MC was hoping to end the game with his own surprise factor. It backfired.
Third, no, MC did not make the proper counters. There were 0 colossus in the game on scrap station. Colossus can pick apart tank lines, and they do pretty well against thors too. You can abuse the range advantage vs Thors. Immortals get stomped by strike cannon, and it was over when MC went carriers. The game was over because they take so damn long to create, they're defeated soundly by the composition Jinro ALREADY had, and their sheer cost makes the Protoss ground army very weak.
WTF? Zealots? I saw MC make maybe 5 zealots at most in the game on Scrap station, and that was with the 4 gate. He never got a twilight council. No blink, no charge, no zealots. I doubt mass stalker would have really helped, but chargelots definitely would have. They're by far the best counter to thors (NOT immortals, immortals get raped by marines and Thors do pretty decently vs them too, because thors have 2 attacks and strike cannon)
I mean, honestly, if MC just had 6 gates pumping zealots, and made anything else he wanted, he would have won. Instead, he didn't have enough gateway units and he got stomped.
And again, look at Mana vs Naama. Mana owns Naama's mech composition several times with storm. He gets contained on one base and comes back to just utterly destroy Naama because he can storm tank lines that cannot avoid the guaranteed 80 damage. If you storm 2 tanks with 1 HT, the HT has paid for himself. HTs also don't die to 2 tank shots, so if you rush a tank line with chargelot/HT, you can break it very easily because the storms essentially halve tank HP and chargelots distract and cause collateral damage. MC displayed neither of these things.
Don't forget MC was under constant fear of the cloaked banshee, and whether or not there would be more of them.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
I highly doubt surprise factor played into it THAT much. I mean sure it affected his opening but he should have figured out Jinro's strategy pretty early on. I mean he made the ideal counters. Zealots, immortals and Air units. Don't think surprise played a huge deal in MC's loss.
Also HTs are a horrible choice to fight Mech as the tanks out-range them and the hellions can pick them off in groups and such. Just my experience anyways.
FIrst of all, Jinro has never played against MC with this build.
Second, obviously yes, surprise did play into it. MC mismicroed against Jinro. How often do you see that? You make mistakes when you're caught off guard and you're desperately trying to think of a solution under pressure, on the fly. Look at any of the games where this has happened. Idra vs Clide, Clide panicked. Jinro vs Check, Jinro panicked. You can't come up with a counter build to something when you've just been rolled by it 10 minutes previously, especially not in the NEXT game right after. MC did not know what to do, so he 4-gated.
I have NEVER seen MC 4 gate a Terran. Hell, it's well known that 4 gate is vastly inferior against Terran than against Zerg or Protoss, so it's obvious that MC was hoping to end the game with his own surprise factor. It backfired.
Third, no, MC did not make the proper counters. There were 0 colossus in the game on scrap station. Colossus can pick apart tank lines, and they do pretty well against thors too. You can abuse the range advantage vs Thors. Immortals get stomped by strike cannon, and it was over when MC went carriers. The game was over because they take so damn long to create, they're defeated soundly by the composition Jinro ALREADY had, and their sheer cost makes the Protoss ground army very weak.
WTF? Zealots? I saw MC make maybe 5 zealots at most in the game on Scrap station, and that was with the 4 gate. He never got a twilight council. No blink, no charge, no zealots. I doubt mass stalker would have really helped, but chargelots definitely would have. They're by far the best counter to thors (NOT immortals, immortals get raped by marines and Thors do pretty decently vs them too, because thors have 2 attacks and strike cannon)
I mean, honestly, if MC just had 6 gates pumping zealots, and made anything else he wanted, he would have won. Instead, he didn't have enough gateway units and he got stomped.
And again, look at Mana vs Naama. Mana owns Naama's mech composition several times with storm. He gets contained on one base and comes back to just utterly destroy Naama because he can storm tank lines that cannot avoid the guaranteed 80 damage. If you storm 2 tanks with 1 HT, the HT has paid for himself. HTs also don't die to 2 tank shots, so if you rush a tank line with chargelot/HT, you can break it very easily because the storms essentially halve tank HP and chargelots distract and cause collateral damage. MC displayed neither of these things.
I don't get how 1 50/150 unit that does 80 damage to 2 tanks and dies ends up paying for itself when it didn't kill anything lol.
But whatever you seem to be very keen to prove that Mech is not viable when clearly it is. You make it sound so easy to beat it yet a player roughly 10,000 times the caliber of player you are couldn't do it TWICE in a row. Yeah Mech will never win you 100% of your games but it's not a terrible strategy or at least as terrible as people like you seem to make it sound.
On January 15 2011 18:11 PredY wrote: Naama at dreamhack didn't go mech, he went 1factory with bio!!
He went biomech. In game 3 against Mana he had 3 factories, just like Jinro had 3 factories against MC on the LT game. (he might have had 3 fact in the game on Scrap too)
Jinro made hellions instead of Marauders.
However, if MC went the same composition that Mana went in games 3-5, he would have destroyed Jinro. Jinro didn't actually have that many hellions, and their linear splash isn't really that useful. It's kinda counterintuitive, but chargelots are still cost-effective, and storms make slow-pushing VERY difficult. If you catch a clumped Terran, and are persistent, storms pay off in the end.
I don't get how 1 50/150 unit that does 80 damage to 2 tanks and dies ends up paying for itself when it didn't kill anything lol.
But whatever you seem to be very keen to prove that Mech is not viable when clearly it is. You make it sound so easy to beat it yet a player roughly 10,000 times the caliber of player you are couldn't do it TWICE in a row. Yeah Mech will never win you 100% of your games but it's not a terrible strategy or at least as terrible as people like you seem to make it sound.
Because 2 tanks are 300/250.
If you do damage to the tanks, and they're repaired, you've done damage. The Terran has to spend minerals and gas to repair the tank, not only in the repair cost, but the opportunity cost of the SCV not mining.
Secondly, it makes the contain really easy to break. A tank with 80 HP is very easily killed.
Lastly, it's JUST 2 tanks. Usually a storm will catch much more than just 2 tanks. It'll usually catch a bunch of marines, vikings, repairing SCVs, whatnot. This is the same reason chargelots are really effective: they take so much damage, yet they draw splash onto the Terran's units.
On January 15 2011 18:11 PredY wrote: Naama at dreamhack didn't go mech, he went 1factory with bio!!
He went biomech. In game 3 against Mana he had 3 factories, just like Jinro had 3 factories against MC on the LT game. (he might have had 3 fact in the game on Scrap too)
Jinro made hellions instead of Marauders.
However, if MC went the same composition that Mana went in games 3-5, he would have destroyed Jinro. Jinro didn't actually have that many hellions, and their linear splash isn't really that useful. It's kinda counterintuitive, but chargelots are still cost-effective, and storms make slow-pushing VERY difficult. If you catch a clumped Terran, and are persistent, storms pay off in the end.
The hellion with micro is cost effective against every gateway unit even stalkers (2 hellions beat 1 stalker which is roughly even resources) so zlots are not cost effective against hellions. The hellions would either have to not be moving at all and there would have to be a 2+:1 cost ratio of zlots:hellions.
Also an HT dieing to simply do damage for the sake of forcing repair would not make him worth it.
That's 50/150 lost to do less than that cost in repair to a couple of siege tanks and the mining time or 1 or 2 SCVs wouldn't be much either assuming he is constantly producing SCVs and is over-saturated at all his bases anyways. To repair a unit from 1 to maximum health only costs 25% of the units overall cost so repairing from 80 to 160 health would not be terribly expensive....
On January 15 2011 18:11 PredY wrote: Naama at dreamhack didn't go mech, he went 1factory with bio!!
He went biomech. In game 3 against Mana he had 3 factories, just like Jinro had 3 factories against MC on the LT game. (he might have had 3 fact in the game on Scrap too)
Jinro made hellions instead of Marauders.
However, if MC went the same composition that Mana went in games 3-5, he would have destroyed Jinro. Jinro didn't actually have that many hellions, and their linear splash isn't really that useful. It's kinda counterintuitive, but chargelots are still cost-effective, and storms make slow-pushing VERY difficult. If you catch a clumped Terran, and are persistent, storms pay off in the end.
The hellion with micro is cost effective against every gateway unit even stalkers (2 hellions beat 1 stalker which is roughly even resources) so zlots are not cost effective against hellions. The hellions would either have to not be moving at all and there would have to be a 2+:1 cost ratio of zlots:hellions.
LOL did you just say hellions are cost effective against stalkers?
Really, I don't know what you're smoking.
Hellions are terrible combat units. They're great for harassment, which is why mech has surprise potential. It isn't consistent against good players because hellions are too fragile.
Second, hellion production is very mineral heavy, and those minerals are better spent on marines. There's a reason Jinro only made about 8 hellions in that game vs MC, and it's because he only intended to harass with them. You'll note that he spent the rest of his minerals on marines, because they're better to fight with.
Lastly, I didn't say zealots were cost effective against hellions. I said they're still cost effective even if hellions are around. Zealots are intended to tank damage and break siege tank lines. They still do this even with hellions because of charge. If the hellions are up front, charge will cause the hellions to melt under tank fire (and storms, and the rest of the protoss ball.) If the hellions are in the back, the Protoss ball will kill the Terran tank line even faster despite the loss of zealots, because there will be nothing to absorb the damage for the tanks. The tanks will just die.
If both players lose a majority of their mineral dump units, the Toss is ahead if he loses zealots because the build time is so low and zealot production does not cut into robo buildtime. A loss of hellions, on the other hand, is far more difficult to replace. A loss of tanks is even worse.
Against MC, Jinro had the reinforcing advantage because MC chose to build units that take insanely long to produce. His gateway count was surprisingly low, and on Scrap Station he stubbornly refused to stop making stalkers even though there were no hellions on the field.
EDIT:
i was going to warn everybody in this thread but i'm on a touchpad and that would take forever.
PLEASE SPOILER YOUR DISCUSSIONS ABOUT A GAME THAT JUST FINSHED.
Haha oops. I just kinda replied without spoilering my posts cause it was already...well...spoiled. I could go back and add tags?
Okay I fixed this thread. Any spoilers not in spoiler tags in this thread will result in a ban. Note that this will be in effect for 24hours, afterwards feel free to not use spoiler tags.
The problem I have with mech is expanding. 1) if toss fast expands you will be behind very quickly, and toss can hold a rine + tankpush if he is good. 2) if toss contains you, you can't expand very quickly, unless it's lost temple. Toss will expand himself and you will get behind.
You need a fast 3th and 4th gas if you mech, or zealots and immortals will eat you allive... I once played against a guy who had 2 collossus at 10:00 with 1 immortal and 5 stalkers and some zealots. It destroyed my 4 tanks + my rines. Mech is getting good when you reach a critical mass of tanks, but early game it's really weak imo.
If protoss abuses that early weakness by taking a fast 3th and 4th, you will lose. You just can't attack the protoss early game.
maybe use more hellions in your composition, maybe harass with banshees to keep him in his base while you get a good ammount of tanks, also thors are very good if he goes pheonix
On January 15 2011 20:04 cilinder007 wrote: maybe use more hellions in your composition, maybe harass with banshees to keep him in his base while you get a good ammount of tanks, also thors are very good if he goes pheonix
I opened banshees a lot in the past, and I found it's a rock paper scissor build. If the protoss opens with phoenixes your banshee will get picked off very quickly.
On January 15 2011 20:12 Garmer wrote: best opening in tvp with mech style, is hellion drop
Yes, against a 1base toss. But if toss does a FE build you will kill some probes, but by the time you got your second base, toss is ahead in probes and you lose.
Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...?
Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
User was warned for this post
Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition.
although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas.
User was warned for this post
Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...?
Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
User was warned for this post
Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition.
although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas.
User was warned for this post
Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
But what can you do about the fast expand problem? Protoss can really kill you when you FE, even when they are FE'ing themselves. I really think that mech is very very weak early game and so too much abuseable, or am I missing something?
Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...?
Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
User was warned for this post
Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition.
although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas.
User was warned for this post
Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
cheers, as you said on some maps it's hard to play like that and there aren't really any mid-game timing pushes yet, high eco toss with HT and carrier tech is so hard to beat, i'm sure we'll find a way eventually. love your late cloak banshee and hellion drops, thats a great way to make toss busy and keep him on his toes. keep it up~
Well mech vs protoss has always had these weaknesses:
- Protoss takes a quick third, techs charge/storm, hits you with a timing attack around 10-12 minutes with overwhelming numbers. Your tank count will be low at this point so it's really hard to fend off. It should be possible to develop a build that's safe against this though.
- Poor mobility means the protoss should have a default macro advantage in the midgame. You can counter this somewhat with good hellion drops, but at the same time it's incredibly difficult to take a third without getting counter attacked in your main via warp prism.
- Speed ray / carrier switches in the mid-late game. With speed rays gone (and since carriers take 3 years to build), this is a LOT easier to deal with.
- You need almost all of your army together for it to be effective. Hugely reliant on critical mass.
- Awful reinforcement time. Lose a battle -> lose the game.
Still I think it will only really work on small maps or in close positions on metalopolis/LT. On big maps the mobility issue is too easy to exploit. Imo it is viable but heavily map/position dependent. Imo Terran needs to experiment more with taking a very fast third with a planetary fortress against Z and P. It opens up so many more tech options and is relatively difficult to punish.
On January 15 2011 20:52 Moja wrote: Imo Terran needs to experiment more with taking a very fast third with a planetary fortress against Z and P. It opens up so many more tech options and is relatively difficult to punish.
Protoss can ignore your third and just kill your nat and main, don't forget that. It's very easy to punnish.
On January 15 2011 20:52 Moja wrote: Imo Terran needs to experiment more with taking a very fast third with a planetary fortress against Z and P. It opens up so many more tech options and is relatively difficult to punish.
Protoss can ignore your third and just kill your nat and main, don't forget that. It's very easy to punnish.
Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...?
Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
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Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition.
although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas.
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Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
Your game against Axslav saw him using Carriers very effectively and basically expanding like a Zerg. Is this the type of play that you fear as mech?
Carriers really seemed to work poorly against what Jinro did. Even if MC had 3/4 more Carriers, those vikings still ripped through them so fast, in the end the viking count left over was so high, i think only 2/3 viking died, left no chance to even rebuild Carriers...sigh, going to suck when more Terrans mech :/
Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...?
Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
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Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition.
although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas.
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Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
Your game against Axslav saw him using Carriers very effectively and basically expanding like a Zerg. Is this the type of play that you fear as mech?
Sort of but I think I made many mistakes that game (not scouting the carriers, playing too slow for the positions - because you cant expand past the gold very easily you need to be aggressive).
The fast 3rd by axslav is how I think you should play vs mech tho.
Carriers really seemed to work poorly against what Jinro did. Even if MC had 3/4 more Carriers, those vikings still ripped through them so fast, in the end the viking count left over was so high, i think only 2/3 viking died, left no chance to even rebuild Carriers...sigh, going to suck when more Terrans mech :/
3-4 carriers are not enough, when you hit around 8 carriers they become unstoppable for a mech army though. Carriers + storm is like it was in BW, it rapes the crap out of terrans and the dps of 8 carriers is insane and you need too many vikings to deal with them
On January 15 2011 22:00 Dommk wrote: Carriers really seemed to work poorly against what Jinro did. Even if MC had 3/4 more Carriers, those vikings still ripped through them so fast, in the end the viking count left over was so high, i think only 2/3 viking died, left no chance to even rebuild Carriers...sigh, going to suck when more Terrans mech :/
3-4 carriers are not enough, when you hit around 8 carriers they become unstoppable for a mech army though. Carriers + storm is like it was in BW, it rapes the crap out of terrans and the dps of 8 carriers is insane and you need too many vikings to deal with them
MC had around 6 when Jinro engaged, he didn't even scratch Jinros viking count...even if he had 9/10, the viking would have still wiped the floor, I mean, if the amount of viking Jinro had took out that many Carriers with barely taking any losses, I hardly think another 8-9 would even be enough..
On January 15 2011 22:00 Dommk wrote: Carriers really seemed to work poorly against what Jinro did. Even if MC had 3/4 more Carriers, those vikings still ripped through them so fast, in the end the viking count left over was so high, i think only 2/3 viking died, left no chance to even rebuild Carriers...sigh, going to suck when more Terrans mech :/
3-4 carriers are not enough, when you hit around 8 carriers they become unstoppable for a mech army though. Carriers + storm is like it was in BW, it rapes the crap out of terrans and the dps of 8 carriers is insane and you need too many vikings to deal with them
MC had around 6 when Jinro engaged, he didn't even scratch Jinros viking count...even if he had 9/10, the viking would have still wiped the floor, I mean, if the amount of viking Jinro had took out that many Carriers with barely taking any losses, I hardly think another 8-9 would even be enough..
just saw the game and yeah that timing was pretty neat by jinro
Do you think if you had had to walk around the map that MC would have had enough time to prepare and not lose? If so, could you have beaten him if he had a few more carriers with your unit composition or was he just too far off critical mass? And finally, since GSL is trying out some new maps that seem more focused on solid play, should we expect more of this?
Vikings + Marines does seem like the answer to carriers (I cant see battlecruisers unless he is attacking into you and your plan to win is to hold off as long as possible and not ever attack) but I have a few thoughts about the issue:
1. if the vikings get focused down or the carriers can simply stay alive long enough to giggle on the ground army then I think T just outright loses. 2. carriers cannot run now. I didnt play much BW but Im pretty sure I remember hearing the key to carrier success was the terrain on a map; is that right? Goliaths could be hit and run because of map terrain but now vikings just fly over it. 3. the solution cannot be "don't let him get to carriers". Im glad talk like this has died down significantly since the beta, but since we are moving towards 6+ gases and longer games we have to accept that that is enough time to prepare carriers.
anyway, these be exciting times. I know someone who would be happy:
Mind posting a mech rep pack next Liquid Weekly? I haven't seen the vods yet but judging from the Liquid ROFLSTOMP of the other teams, you do harass->macro mech. I'm trying to do a Thor mech that's based on taking a fast third so having some reps for reference of a different style would be great.
I played this strat out on some maps and it got demolished. When the protoss goes VR you are dead. once the protoss gets like 10+ VRs you are in alot of trouble. Even with marines turrets and vikings you cant hold it. The imobile tanks cant win you the game. The protoss will out expand you and kill you if you move forward more than 1 inch at a time. Wont work at high level play.
On January 16 2011 00:22 sGDaevil wrote: I played this strat out on some maps and it got demolished. When the protoss goes VR you are dead. once the protoss gets like 10+ VRs you are in alot of trouble. Even with marines turrets and vikings you cant hold it. The imobile tanks cant win you the game. The protoss will out expand you and kill you if you move forward more than 1 inch at a time. Wont work at high level play.
Probably because MC decided to go for Carriers...?
Carriers own mech unless scouted, and do ok even when scouted if your eco is strong enough. The problem was his phoenix were a money sink with how many thors I had.
On January 15 2011 17:39 Kokujin wrote: now everyone is going insane over jinro's mech play and are just itching to standardize mech in TvP. but looking closer you'll see in both those games MC makes a failed (one 4 gate?) near all in attack beforehand and suffers substantial losses. jinro then 'transitions' into mech and crushes. mech may be plausible but the jinro games dont really prove mech
This.
It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.
MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.
Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.
Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.
Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.
I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.
User was warned for this post
Before I scouted his stargates, I had a total of 2 vikings and 1 starport.... So clearly I was gearing my army towards beating a gateway heavy composition.
although i didnt see the games, gotta check out the vods, it's awesome that jinro did what he did and it doesnt matter if he won because MC made mistakes, it means that koreans and other terrans will now actually TRY to mech and see what's up with that and they will eventually come up with perhaps better strategies and on new maps they will be more likely to do it and i think THIS is the most important thing and i hope i'm not wrong. Jinro fighting~ there is a hope indeed.
edit: i know that from my personal view asl well, i'm one of the few "high" level terrans on euro going mech or biomech and i have fair success with it don't get me wrong, but im no Flash or Boxer, i can come up with strategies and i have good builds but in late game im still very unsecure and i hope seeing more players go mech especially if it's in GSL will be very helpfull to get new ideas.
User was warned for this post
Ye I always liked your mech ~~ I think it could be viable now without speed rays.
Your game against Axslav saw him using Carriers very effectively and basically expanding like a Zerg. Is this the type of play that you fear as mech?
Sort of but I think I made many mistakes that game (not scouting the carriers, playing too slow for the positions - because you cant expand past the gold very easily you need to be aggressive).
The fast 3rd by axslav is how I think you should play vs mech tho.
Fast 3rd with multiple robos or blink are the best solutions to mech play. In addition protosses are going to have to learn to use walls/semiwalls to hold off hellions.
I noticed you weren't getting any ghosts with your mech. When I meched back in beta as T (granted balance was different) I found that without ghosts you'd just roll over and die to well eco-d immortals.
I also found that all protoss had to do was kill enough tanks to keep you from safely pushing while expanding/getting carriers. There isn't really a good solution to carriers because toss can have +2 air weapons before his first carrier is even out, putting you really behind in viking vs carriers. Chargelots can take on marines pretty well, drawing tank splash into them.
Ultimately, I think MC was surprised and he played very sub-par. Will mech have a comeback? I don't know, but it's clear that bio has limitations. I still haven't seen anyone do my bio => mech transition style play from beta. I think that removes a lot of the limitations/weaknesses of the 1/1/1 style openings.
Great games though, was fun to see some different play.
On January 16 2011 00:22 sGDaevil wrote: I played this strat out on some maps and it got demolished. When the protoss goes VR you are dead. once the protoss gets like 10+ VRs you are in alot of trouble. Even with marines turrets and vikings you cant hold it. The imobile tanks cant win you the game. The protoss will out expand you and kill you if you move forward more than 1 inch at a time. Wont work at high level play.
voidrays are the easiest air to counter, turrets/vikings+ 2 thors rape 10 voidrays
For those interested in seeing more of this style's execution from Jinro I highly recommend to check out the Machinima Realm Invitational.They are great games and demonstrate both the strengths and weaknesses of a mech/harassment play against Protoss.
This style has a big ass Jungle Basin seal of approval on it
Also I think what makes it viable now that flux vane VR are gone is more the blue flame hellions than anything else, even if you can't really attack directly for a while and have an immobile army, hellions are not and it doesn't take lot of hellions to destroy an economy
On January 16 2011 03:43 YarNhoj wrote: Jinro showed @ GSL that mech can pretty convincingly win against protoss.
mech could always win but void rays and carriers were always the achilies heel for mech vs protoss
carriers can be dealt with by launching your push on the protoss when he is just getting carriers. the reason for this is a) his ground army is comprimised by the tech and b) your viking count will be sufficient by this time to take down the few carriers that come out each production cycle.
If this doesn't end the game, establish a good position and set up turrets/research stim and throw down more rax and bunkers. let the marines and turrets target the interceptors while you micro the vikings to snipe the carriers.
beating mech isn't a matter of unit composition, it's a matter of having better macro and game sense.
On January 16 2011 03:43 YarNhoj wrote: Jinro showed @ GSL that mech can pretty convincingly win against protoss.
mech could always win but void rays and carriers were always the achilies heel for mech vs protoss
carriers can be dealt with by launching your push on the protoss when he is just getting carriers. the reason for this is a) his ground army is comprimised by the tech and b) your viking count will be sufficient by this time to take down the few carriers that come out each production cycle.
If this doesn't end the game, establish a good position and set up turrets/research stim and throw down more rax and bunkers. let the marines and turrets target the interceptors while you micro the vikings to snipe the carriers.
beating mech isn't a matter of unit composition, it's a matter of having better macro and game sense.
Agreed with the last bit. A bunch of people in here are like you just make units and win or you just mass expand and win or you just make this unit and win. And that's not the case, you just have to be more solid than your opponent.
I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad .
On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote: I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad .
Maybe you could upload a replay? Your loss might have a different cause then what you are thinking, since your story sounds very odd.
On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote: I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad .
Terran has these things called sensor towers that let you see things coming far enough in advance to react and re-position your army.
Just because you don't know how to deal with something while playing mech doesn't mean MMM is the only way to play. -.-'
On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote: I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad .
Terran has these things called sensor towers that let you see things coming far enough in advance to react and re-position your army.
Just because you don't know how to deal with something while playing mech doesn't mean MMM is the only way to play. -.-'
Yep, and then you move your army to your main --> nat will die. Move half of your army to your main? Your half will die and he will eat the second half. That's how it works and strelok lost exact same way. While I am building sensor towers and while i am defending, toss is expanding like a zerg.
On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote: I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad .
Terran has these things called sensor towers that let you see things coming far enough in advance to react and re-position your army.
Just because you don't know how to deal with something while playing mech doesn't mean MMM is the only way to play. -.-'
Yep, and then you move your army to your main --> nat will die. Move half of your army to your main? Your half will die and he will eat the second half. That's how it works and strelok lost exact same way. While I am building sensor towers and while i am defending, toss is expanding like a zerg.
The story is odd if he tries to move his whole army into your main if you played properly in most situations you should be able to sandwich his army in there and wipe it out very cost effectively as he is attacking into you.
Protoss mass expanding means he will have less units meaning you can safely push with less supply than you usually would wait for.
TvP is obviously not imbalanced as other than MC and Tester what tosses is anyone actually afraid of. And Mech obviously works even if only situational. MMM is not the only option if you think that then you really need to learn to be open minded.
Also who cares if you lose a few games going Mech, you should never win 100% of your games because of a strategy otherwise it would be an imbalanced strategy...
This isnt directed to the OP. But I cant stand reading posts of people who seem to think you can magically make any unit composition at will. You cant just expect to make Mech, Vikings for anti air, Ghosts to snipe Templars, Ravens for detection, etc. any time you feel like it. Even if your economy could support it, theres such thing as a delay where you need to build the infrastructure, research upgrades, etc. before you can implement that unit. And thats not the end of the story. Lets say youre going Mech and you "want to make Vikings" well youre spending money and time just to have the ability to make Vikings. Meanwhile youre Mech army is getting weaker from attacks and the fact that you cant reinforce.
I would think this idea is pretty obvious. But apparently not as so many people make these statements in this forum. Its not that big of a deal I guess as I can easily ignore these posts but it makes it rather difficult to mine out the good info from the bad ones.
Having said that I still dont believe its entirely effective to use Mech vs a good Protoss player. I wish it was true but I just cant imagine crippling the key advantage of Terran in MMMG mobility. Ive tried too many times and failed against lesser Protoss that I wouldve rolled through using MMMG (my winrate using Mech vs P is like 20-30% and usually requires Protoss making big mistakes; whereas MMMG has a much higher winrate... something like 65% or higher). Maybe Im doing things wrong, and I read these threads hoping to get some good advice, only to be disappointed when its riddled with statements like the one above.
IMO, Jinro was able to pull of a miracle with his mech victories but its still doesnt prove that its a good strategy. Jinro was able to win the first game mainly because of MC blowing it on the hellion drop and then being forced to attack into a seiged position which is always a bad plan (and close positions didnt help). The story from the guy above wtih blink stalkers and cliff walkers doesnt sound odd to me at all, thats only one of the various ways that protoss can easily crush a Terran trying to play tank mech. There will always be a few games that people will point to to prove how well it works, but the fact of the matter is, there's a million games where it gets crushed that nobody shows.
The thor push only worked because of MC's odd composition again (too many phoenixes considering there were no banshees and not enough carriers), although I am interested in a possible thor/viking combo now. Vikings deal with collosus/voids and thors everything else, it would be quite a balancing act with your gas usage though.
On January 16 2011 21:43 Dente wrote: I just lost against a protoss who just blinked stalkers and walked collossae into my main. By the time my tanks were in my main, he killed a few scv's and a factory. He did that a few times and then overran me. I couldn't expand because I had to defend my main. Pfff... TvP is getting ridicilous. MMM is the only thing that works and you can't win a 200/200vs200/200 fight. So sad .
Terran has these things called sensor towers that let you see things coming far enough in advance to react and re-position your army.
Just because you don't know how to deal with something while playing mech doesn't mean MMM is the only way to play. -.-'
Yep, and then you move your army to your main --> nat will die. Move half of your army to your main? Your half will die and he will eat the second half. That's how it works and strelok lost exact same way. While I am building sensor towers and while i am defending, toss is expanding like a zerg.
I really dont like your way of reasoning. Maybe you did something wrong before the moment where you had to move your army back to your main? Or maybe it wasnt a good situation to play mech in the first place? It sounds like you think there is only one solution to each problem. In the same way mech isnt supposed to be the one solution on how to play TvP. Mech could work great in some situations, it is not supposed to be a new strategy on how to roll protoss every game.
Again please upload a replay. It sounds like you are not aware of where your opponents army is and it sounds like your army had poor positioning.
On January 17 2011 03:17 LHUCKS1 wrote: Also, if Toss goes carrier you probably missed a big window of weakness to attack.
Wrong. There are many legitimate periods where toss can go carriers effectively. After storm is out but T is playing defensively with PFs, trying to secure a 3rd and transition to ghosts is a good timing for a carrier transition. Another good time is 2 base carrier where T is securing a natural after a failed 1 base attack and he has to play defensive and eco up.
Carriers do present periods of weakness, but if approached from good timing windows they are perfectly safe.
With this strategy, I constantly pump Marauder with my one rax if I have the gas, concussive is a very important upgrade that requires no macro that can tip a battle in your favor.
My typical unit composition vs. Toss now Maraurder Hellion Tank Viking
Goliaths generally take up too much gas, but if I have the gas I'll make goliaths to support tanks if I'm happy with my tank volume.
This thread has single handedly turned my TvP game around!! But you need to be wary of Toss air, actively scout with reapers or vikings and if you see air, get reactored starports up ASAP so you can mass vikings.
I somehow missed this thread and am mightily impressed with it after the Jinro vs MC game!
During the interview, Jinro stated that his record against Protoss improved dramatically when he used mech. So, it's not a one-hit-wonder thing.
As for people criticising MC's decision to go for Phoenix in both games, Jinro stated that MC used it many times against him (during practice) with success.
Also as for the carriers in game 2, Jinro said that MC has fended of the mech-play using carriers. However, the difference is that MC's 3rd expansion was slower than normal (which needn't be since Jinro was going the immobile mech), which is why he managed to do a timing push against him.
Do people really don't see why jinro won? Mc attacked early-med game and FAILED (on both lost temple and scrap station). Then jinro rolled him. Every terran will roll the protoss with mech after a failed attack from the protoss. Mc just had to do 3 things: - expand like a zerg - defend - abuse the mech immobility. Imagine that jinro is at the towers on lost temple. Mc can just go with collo + stalker around the tower and then just blink into jinro's main, take off a few units and factories, then retreat. By the time jinro moved his mech army to his main, mc can retreat and the damage is done. Then do it again, but this time sandwish jinro. If jinro wins? Np, mc will have much more bases and he will reproduce his army very easy. I am really wondering what jinro has to say about this.
Mc attacked while he just had to expand and defend.
People don't seem to understand how long it takes to move a whole tank army from your natural to your main + siege them. By that time toss can retreat or even take your tanks out if you only send half of them.
On January 17 2011 03:51 Dente wrote: Do people really don't see why jinro won? Mc attacked early-med game and FAILED (on both lost temple and scrap station). Then jinro rolled him. Every terran will roll the protoss with mech after a failed attack from the protoss. Mc just had to do 3 things: - expand like a zerg - defend - abuse the mech immobility. Imagine that jinro is at the towers on lost temple. Mc can just go with collo + stalker around the tower and then just blink into jinro's main, take off a few units and factories, then retreat. By the time jinro moved his mech army to his main, mc can retreat and the damage is done. Then do it again, but this time sandwish jinro. If jinro wins? Np, mc will have much more bases and he will reproduce his army very easy. I am really wondering what jinro has to say about this.
Mc attacked while he just had to expand and defend.
People don't seem to understand how long it takes to move a whole tank army from your natural to your main + siege them. By that time toss can retreat or even take your tanks out if you only send half of them.
I think this is where Sensor Towers comes into play.. Of course you need to place them in right spots, like not where your army is sieged, but at corners to avoid Warp prism or bling/collosus raids..
Anyways, if you have 150/200 upgraded mech army, its so infinitely easier to fight, because in this stage of game your bio is just being obliterated by HTs..
On January 17 2011 03:51 Dente wrote: Do people really don't see why jinro won? Mc attacked early-med game and FAILED (on both lost temple and scrap station). Then jinro rolled him. Every terran will roll the protoss with mech after a failed attack from the protoss. Mc just had to do 3 things: - expand like a zerg - defend - abuse the mech immobility. Imagine that jinro is at the towers on lost temple. Mc can just go with collo + stalker around the tower and then just blink into jinro's main, take off a few units and factories, then retreat. By the time jinro moved his mech army to his main, mc can retreat and the damage is done. Then do it again, but this time sandwish jinro. If jinro wins? Np, mc will have much more bases and he will reproduce his army very easy. I am really wondering what jinro has to say about this.
Mc attacked while he just had to expand and defend.
People don't seem to understand how long it takes to move a whole tank army from your natural to your main + siege them. By that time toss can retreat or even take your tanks out if you only send half of them.
I think this is where Sensor Towers comes into play.. Of course you need to place them in right spots, like not where your army is sieged, but at corners to avoid Warp prism or bling/collosus raids..
Anyways, if you have 150/200 upgraded mech army, its so infinitely easier to fight, because in this stage of game your bio is just being obliterated by HTs..
Let's imagine that I have a sensor tower in my main. I see him coming. Then I need to move my whole mech army to my main, and this will go very slow. By the time I'm marching up my ramp, he is there killing some stuff, and then he will retreat. Just watch naniwa vs strelok!
For example: metapolis. How can I take a third if I need to move between my main and my nat? Toss will have a faster third and fourth + mapcontrol.
On December 30 2010 17:02 giuocob wrote: Holy crap, this is awesome. Looks a whole lot like BW. Now we need someone to win GSL with this and we're golden. Any takers?
Haha if you saw the Ro16 Code S group D the other day, Jinro took oGsMC out with builds similar to these. 2-0. Chinro Fighting! :D
so at what time do you take your third with mech play ? at what # of tanks, also do you only start getting thors if he goes pheonix or do you use the 250mm to deal with the immortals and what do you do against an immortal heavy composition
On January 17 2011 03:51 Dente wrote: Do people really don't see why jinro won? Mc attacked early-med game and FAILED (on both lost temple and scrap station). Then jinro rolled him. Every terran will roll the protoss with mech after a failed attack from the protoss. Mc just had to do 3 things: - expand like a zerg - defend - abuse the mech immobility. Imagine that jinro is at the towers on lost temple. Mc can just go with collo + stalker around the tower and then just blink into jinro's main, take off a few units and factories, then retreat. By the time jinro moved his mech army to his main, mc can retreat and the damage is done. Then do it again, but this time sandwish jinro. If jinro wins? Np, mc will have much more bases and he will reproduce his army very easy. I am really wondering what jinro has to say about this.
Mc attacked while he just had to expand and defend.
People don't seem to understand how long it takes to move a whole tank army from your natural to your main + siege them. By that time toss can retreat or even take your tanks out if you only send half of them.
Ok now your posts are starting to look like blatant whine. MC was still in the lead(atleast at one point during the game) supply-wise after both of those attacks.
Abuse mech immobility? Do you know the speed of a colossus? Do you know the speed of a tank? Assuming that your army is positioned properly, do you realize it takes a lot more time for the protoss to walk all the way around your army than it does to reposition your army a little bit to block the road into your main? You are lying to yourself if you think that unsiege/siege takes more time than having to run 3 times the total distance. Do you realize how vulnerable the protoss's front will be if he even attemps to do this?
On January 16 2011 00:22 sGDaevil wrote: I played this strat out on some maps and it got demolished. When the protoss goes VR you are dead. once the protoss gets like 10+ VRs you are in alot of trouble. Even with marines turrets and vikings you cant hold it. The imobile tanks cant win you the game. The protoss will out expand you and kill you if you move forward more than 1 inch at a time. Wont work at high level play.
I have seen a replay of you in another thread, its defo not high level play.
Alright BroodjeBaller, because Mr. 5 posts which are all flames as far as I can see really has alot of credit, whats your ranking because your counter point to Dente's is ridiculously naive. Tanks take a long time to move up a ramp because they are fat not even taking into consideration seige and unseige time, and you will hardly have such good map control that you will see them coming from 3x the distance away.
It goes like this lets pretend its LT, a big group of blink stalkers moves around outside your map control range, then they make a beeline straight for your cliff and blink up. Now best case scenario you had a sensory tower and some time to unseige your tanks. Now the stalkers have arrived at your base and you are still going to need to move them back from their forward position and then up the ramp basically one at a time, where they will have to wait until a sufficient number has gotten up there or you will get ruined. Not to mention how its difficult to move bulky tanks through a lategame base full of buildings. Meanwhile you have lost your containment position probably a couple of buildings and maybe some tanks while you were moving around and protoss has lost nothing at all.
And yes the protoss front is vulnerable, but siege tank armies cant attack quickly into a base very well without risking heavy loses. They have to move slowly whenever they encounter more then the smallest resistance, so even if there are only 5 zealots and 2 collosus left at base, if you try to attack into that with unseiged tanks you will lose more then hes losing at your base to some marines and 2 tanks and you will probably lose the base trade.
There's no need for that kind of abuse. Broodjeballer made a fair point: if Dente wants help understanding how mech can be used effectively in TvP, he should post a replay of his and ask for assistance, rather than whining.
statikg described it perfectly. I don't need advice about mech. I beated 3k+ diamonds with it (before patch 1.2) and I experimented with it for a very long time. I saw alot of 200/200 protoss army's melt to my 150/200 tank army so I was happy to found out a way to combat the protoss army.
Then I met protoss players who abused the fact that I was going mech: - contain me so they can get their second base much quicker and so that I have my 3th and 4th gas much later. By the time I have enough tanks to attack (yes, you need an amount of them to be able to win a battle) they got 2 more bases and I will lose 100%.
- abuse my immobility. It's like statikg described: tanks are slow and it's damn hard to move them up your ramp and siege them. If you manage to get them up, toss can just retreat and toy with you. Like I said: watch strelok vs naniwa. Strelok killed naniwa's army but naniwa immeadiately made a new one and destroyed strelok with collo + stalkers. He just abused the cliff.
- abuse the mothership. If you have to move your tanks all around the map, and with the fear of speedlots and blinkstalkers, there is never enough time to spread your tanks very well. 1 vortex and half of your tanks will be gone.
On January 17 2011 10:12 statikg wrote: Alright BroodjeBaller, because Mr. 5 posts which are all flames as far as I can see really has alot of credit, whats your ranking because your counter point to Dente's is ridiculously naive. Tanks take a long time to move up a ramp because they are fat not even taking into consideration seige and unseige time, and you will hardly have such good map control that you will see them coming from 3x the distance away.
It goes like this lets pretend its LT, a big group of blink stalkers moves around outside your map control range, then they make a beeline straight for your cliff and blink up. Now best case scenario you had a sensory tower and some time to unseige your tanks. Now the stalkers have arrived at your base and you are still going to need to move them back from their forward position and then up the ramp basically one at a time, where they will have to wait until a sufficient number has gotten up there or you will get ruined. Not to mention how its difficult to move bulky tanks through a lategame base full of buildings. Meanwhile you have lost your containment position probably a couple of buildings and maybe some tanks while you were moving around and protoss has lost nothing at all.
And yes the protoss front is vulnerable, but siege tank armies cant attack quickly into a base very well without risking heavy loses. They have to move slowly whenever they encounter more then the smallest resistance, so even if there are only 5 zealots and 2 collosus left at base, if you try to attack into that with unseiged tanks you will lose more then hes losing at your base to some marines and 2 tanks and you will probably lose the base trade.
Douche.
Assuming your army is positioned like jinro vs mc on LT (And I assume you are talking about such a situation aswell since your are talking about losing your containment position). You can easily intercept the collosus and stalkers at the bushes. There is no need to move all(or half) of your tanks back into your main. "Only 5 zealots and 2 collosus" Thats 22 supply/1100 minerals/400 gas, which means his main army is significantly weaker. And I didnt imply to attack his front with tanks in the first place. You can easily poke with a couple of marauders/marines to see if he really has the "only 5 zealots and 2 collosus" and if he doesnt you can sacrifise the units to take out the nexus at his natural.
On January 17 2011 10:12 statikg wrote: Alright BroodjeBaller, because Mr. 5 posts which are all flames as far as I can see really has alot of credit, whats your ranking because your counter point to Dente's is ridiculously naive. Tanks take a long time to move up a ramp because they are fat not even taking into consideration seige and unseige time, and you will hardly have such good map control that you will see them coming from 3x the distance away.
It goes like this lets pretend its LT, a big group of blink stalkers moves around outside your map control range, then they make a beeline straight for your cliff and blink up. Now best case scenario you had a sensory tower and some time to unseige your tanks. Now the stalkers have arrived at your base and you are still going to need to move them back from their forward position and then up the ramp basically one at a time, where they will have to wait until a sufficient number has gotten up there or you will get ruined. Not to mention how its difficult to move bulky tanks through a lategame base full of buildings. Meanwhile you have lost your containment position probably a couple of buildings and maybe some tanks while you were moving around and protoss has lost nothing at all.
And yes the protoss front is vulnerable, but siege tank armies cant attack quickly into a base very well without risking heavy loses. They have to move slowly whenever they encounter more then the smallest resistance, so even if there are only 5 zealots and 2 collosus left at base, if you try to attack into that with unseiged tanks you will lose more then hes losing at your base to some marines and 2 tanks and you will probably lose the base trade.
Douche.
Assuming your army is positioned like jinro vs mc on LT (And I assume you are talking about such a situation aswell since your are talking about losing your containment position). You can easily intercept the collosus and stalkers at the bushes. There is no need to move all(or half) of your tanks back into your main. "Only 5 zealots and 2 collosus" Thats 22 supply/1100 minerals/400 gas, which means his main army is significantly weaker. And I didnt imply to attack his front with tanks in the first place. You can easily poke with a couple of marauders/marines to see if he really has the "only 5 zealots and 2 collosus" and if he doesnt you can sacrifise the units to take out the nexus at his natural.
We are talking about MECH men. You can't poke with marines or marauders. Please stop posting about this subject untill you saw strelok vs naniwa. Strelok moved half of his tanks to his main and he lost all those tanks. Stalkers blink into your tanks and collossae will finnish them. You can't intercept the collosus and stalkers...
Then you take the name of the play way too literally. And this could be the cause of your losses. If someones army is tank/thor heavy with some vikings/medivacs and a lot of marines I would still refer to it as mech based play. You are blaming the whole strategy when you dont even play it properly.
On January 17 2011 20:37 BroodjeBaller wrote: Then you take the name of the play way too literally. And this could be the cause of your losses. If someones army is tank/thor heavy with some vikings/medivacs and a lot of marines I would still refer to it as mech based play. You are blaming the whole strategy when you dont even play it properly.
Jinro made 0 marauders and almost no marines. That is the mech we are talking about. You are talking about biomech, which is not as strong as pure mech and which will die against HT + zealot.
On January 17 2011 20:37 BroodjeBaller wrote: Then you take the name of the play way too literally. And this could be the cause of your losses. If someones army is tank/thor heavy with some vikings/medivacs and a lot of marines I would still refer to it as mech based play. You are blaming the whole strategy when you dont even play it properly.
Jinro made 0 marauders and almost no marines. That is the mech we are talking about. You are talking about biomech, which is not as strong as pure mech and which will die against HT + zealot.
So you're saying that what Jinro did was not mech? I mean he used medivacs and vikings. Also, he didn't make "almost no marines", I saw a lot of marines. Perhaps we weren't watching the same games.
I am really getting tired of this "if you make anything but tanks/thors/hellions it can no longer be called mech". Well call it biomech or whatever the fuck you want then, point is that it works. At least it's not as bad you're trying to make it out to be.
So please, tone down your bullshit and try to learn how to play the freaking game without complaining about imbalances all the god damn time!
On January 17 2011 20:37 BroodjeBaller wrote: Then you take the name of the play way too literally. And this could be the cause of your losses. If someones army is tank/thor heavy with some vikings/medivacs and a lot of marines I would still refer to it as mech based play. You are blaming the whole strategy when you dont even play it properly.
Jinro made 0 marauders and almost no marines. That is the mech we are talking about. You are talking about biomech, which is not as strong as pure mech and which will die against HT + zealot.
I just gave an example. If you are talking about jinro he made medivacs/marines/banshees/raven besides mech, so thats not mech either in your eyes, tho I think most people would still refer to it as mech play. Anyway I would still like to see a replay where protoss walks around terrans contain. You could even load some tanks into medivacs to reposition your tank line faster. Hellion/banshees harass could be devastating if a toss tries to do this.
Okay you guys are right about Mech being able to be abused for it's immobility but you over exaggerate to what level that can be abused. Back in BW 99% of TvP's were Mech, Protoss didn't have warp in but their overall army was still way more mobile than in sc2 as collossi and immortals are really slow and zealots are slower in sc2 as instead of speed upgrade they have a charge ability.
If the fact that Mech is slow means it auto-loses then Terrans never would have won a game in BW.
The only problem I have with Mech is not it's mobility but rather it's cost. 125 gas for a Siege Tank should really be lowered to 100 prevent the need for such long games, for every 4 current patch tanks could be another siege tank or extra factory to get a slightly earlier mass which is one of the problems Jinro stated with it is that you will always get a super long game. But meh.
Getting contained doesn't seem like it would be much of an issue as you can simply slow push out with your tanks and he wouldn't be able to charge forward and stop you without being shelled by the rear tanks.
On January 17 2011 21:08 Raiznhell wrote: Okay you guys are right about Mech being able to be abused for it's immobility but you over exaggerate to what level that can be abused. Back in BW 99% of TvP's were Mech, Protoss didn't have warp in but their overall army was still way more mobile than in sc2 as collossi and immortals are really slow and zealots are slower in sc2 as instead of speed upgrade they have a charge ability.
If the fact that Mech is slow means it auto-loses then Terrans never would have won a game in BW.
Difference being: spider mines and 2 supply tanks(along with goliath > thor for the most part). I'm not going to say mech isn't viable or anything, just that you can't really compare sc mech vs sc2 mech, since the differences are so huge.
I love playing vs mech, templar n' phoenixes all the way! Though, Thors still give me loads of trouble.... I feel like well played MMM is more taxing than Well played mech. I feel like vs MMM execution is what is important, but with mech preparation is more important.
On January 17 2011 21:03 BroodjeBaller wrote: Anyway I would still like to see a replay where protoss walks around terrans contain. You could even load some tanks into medivacs to reposition your tank line faster.
Ok I just decided to stop discussing with you after reading this line. We are talking about mech on MASTER level, not gold. Good luck transporting tanks with medivacs against 25+ stalkers and 5 collossae. Since you still haven't seen strelok vs naniwa, I will post the replay link. Watch it! http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)mouzStrelok_vs_(P)nAni_lost_temple_sc2rep_com_20110110/4305
You probably never ever tried mech by yourself. MC attacked into jinro's bunkers on both lost temple and scrap station. That is a freewin for the terran. I never lose a tvp when the protoss just attacks into my bunkers. I never saw mc getting more then 3 bases in both games. I never saw mc abusing the mech immobility. Ofcourse you make vikings and ravens and some rines. Jinro his army was 95% metal aka mech.
On January 17 2011 21:08 Raiznhell wrote: Okay you guys are right about Mech being able to be abused for it's immobility but you over exaggerate to what level that can be abused. Back in BW 99% of TvP's were Mech, Protoss didn't have warp in but their overall army was still way more mobile than in sc2 as collossi and immortals are really slow and zealots are slower in sc2 as instead of speed upgrade they have a charge ability.
If the fact that Mech is slow means it auto-loses then Terrans never would have won a game in BW.
The only problem I have with Mech is not it's mobility but rather it's cost. 125 gas for a Siege Tank should really be lowered to 100 prevent the need for such long games, for every 4 current patch tanks could be another siege tank or extra factory to get a slightly earlier mass which is one of the problems Jinro stated with it is that you will always get a super long game. But meh.
Getting contained doesn't seem like it would be much of an issue as you can simply slow push out with your tanks and he wouldn't be able to charge forward and stop you without being shelled by the rear tanks.
Give me spidermines and I will not complain about mech immobility.
On January 17 2011 21:03 BroodjeBaller wrote: Anyway I would still like to see a replay where protoss walks around terrans contain. You could even load some tanks into medivacs to reposition your tank line faster.
Ok I just decided to stop discussing with you after reading this line. We are talking about mech on MASTER level, not gold. Good luck transporting tanks with medivacs against 25+ stalkers and 5 collossae.
I saw jinro do this on LT to reposition his tanks, he sure is gold level. inb4 "but the stalker will just kill the medivacs" no they wont because earlier you were talking about the situation where the toss army was all the way around the tank line into the terrans main.
You probably never ever tried mech by yourself. MC attacked into jinro's bunkers on both lost temple and scrap station. That is a freewin for the terran. I never lose a tvp when the protoss just attacks into my bunkers. I never saw mc getting more then 3 bases in both games. I never saw mc abusing the mech immobility. Ofcourse you make vikings and ravens and some rines. Jinro his army was 95% metal aka mech.
Its obviously not a freewin since mc still had a lead supply wise after those attacks. And I dunno if you watched more of MC's games, but he really doesnt care about bunkers and still wins most of the times. Against rainbow he attacked into 4 bunkers and won anyway. And a few posts ago mech was just thor, tank, hellion, viking.
I understand the point your trying to make, but lets say you move your tanks to the bushes, by the time you have seiged up, his units can just move deeper into your base OR if he has sufficient units, he can just crush your unseiged tanks which he will definitely see via obs. Its still risky to move them around unseiged, and again I'm assuming sensor tower which I think is a generous assumption on 2 bases early-midgame.
Going even beyond this, there is a certain critical mass of tanks but a chargelot/immortal army can totally crush through a mech army through much of the game, throw in like 1 collosus to deal with marines and tanks are just countered by so many things that protoss has its very hard. I have seen protoss win this kind of engagement attacking into 10 seiged up tanks (protoss army was a bit bigger but it still seems counter intuitive)...its pretty ridiculous.
Broodje, Dente and I are both masters, I'm guessing that your a spectator general, I know that Jinro made it seem easy, but the true success behind the games was in LT the hellion drop and in scrap MC's questionable decision to make mass phoenix followed up by carriers which got composition countered. Close positions helped. Try playing a long macro game on metal when the opponent can just go around your tank line to your other expansions. You can't just unsiege and run over to the opponent because your gonna get rocked with your unseiged tanks, or he can make a switch to carriers, your beyond f'd if you dont see it coming (try scouting 3 stargates hidden discretly in a 5base metal match). The 2base scenario we have been discussing so far is the BEST CASE for terran, once you move to a 3base game the problems compound and it just gets worse from there.
Maybe someone should write a guide for mech TvP, Jinro? To have the things we know and the things we think need to be figured out in an order.
I think Sensor Towers are essential for mech play. Not only they give you a heads up warning but, maybe, with a few well placed ST, you can keep your tanks unsieged for a faster response. It might be the answer for what happened to strelok, goody, etc (the blink, colossie thing). They are so darn expensive though...
Ghosts are also very important i think. Just one or two, for the brute "dps"done to shields can increase the cost effectiveness of your army dramatically.
What i really loved about Jinro's play were the banshees. I just realized that cloaked banshees can be superb for scouting. They are faster then observers (pre speed).
On January 17 2011 21:03 BroodjeBaller wrote: Anyway I would still like to see a replay where protoss walks around terrans contain. You could even load some tanks into medivacs to reposition your tank line faster.
Ok I just decided to stop discussing with you after reading this line. We are talking about mech on MASTER level, not gold. Good luck transporting tanks with medivacs against 25+ stalkers and 5 collossae.
I saw jinro do this on LT to reposition his tanks, he sure is gold level. inb4 "but the stalker will just kill the medivacs" no they wont because earlier you were talking about the situation where the toss army was all the way around the tank line into the terrans main.
You probably never ever tried mech by yourself. MC attacked into jinro's bunkers on both lost temple and scrap station. That is a freewin for the terran. I never lose a tvp when the protoss just attacks into my bunkers. I never saw mc getting more then 3 bases in both games. I never saw mc abusing the mech immobility. Ofcourse you make vikings and ravens and some rines. Jinro his army was 95% metal aka mech.
Its obviously not a freewin since mc still had a lead supply wise after those attacks. And I dunno if you watched more of MC's games, but he really doesnt care about bunkers and still wins most of the times. Against rainbow he attacked into 4 bunkers and won anyway. And a few posts ago mech was just thor, tank, hellion, viking.
Well then explain why both strelok and goody lost to naniwa's collossus + stalker. Did you actually watch those games? They perfectly show why mech is not viable at all.
What Jinro did against MC in game 2 100% countered MC's immortal/carriers/stalkers.
Obviously he's proving Mech is viable in a TvP but it doesn't mean that he and every terran should immediately 4-factory every TvP that makes it to the late game. It was just right for the time.
Well then explain why both strelok and goody lost to naniwa's collossus + stalker. Did you actually watch those games? They perfectly show why mech is not viable at all.
Doesn't really mean much, haven't seen the vods but i'll find them when i get home. Jinro had enough viking support to take out any colossus perfectly fine. What MC did charging into the tanks and bunkers might have worked against TSL_Rain but not jinro :D
On January 17 2011 21:03 BroodjeBaller wrote: Anyway I would still like to see a replay where protoss walks around terrans contain. You could even load some tanks into medivacs to reposition your tank line faster.
Ok I just decided to stop discussing with you after reading this line. We are talking about mech on MASTER level, not gold. Good luck transporting tanks with medivacs against 25+ stalkers and 5 collossae.
I saw jinro do this on LT to reposition his tanks, he sure is gold level. inb4 "but the stalker will just kill the medivacs" no they wont because earlier you were talking about the situation where the toss army was all the way around the tank line into the terrans main.
You probably never ever tried mech by yourself. MC attacked into jinro's bunkers on both lost temple and scrap station. That is a freewin for the terran. I never lose a tvp when the protoss just attacks into my bunkers. I never saw mc getting more then 3 bases in both games. I never saw mc abusing the mech immobility. Ofcourse you make vikings and ravens and some rines. Jinro his army was 95% metal aka mech.
Its obviously not a freewin since mc still had a lead supply wise after those attacks. And I dunno if you watched more of MC's games, but he really doesnt care about bunkers and still wins most of the times. Against rainbow he attacked into 4 bunkers and won anyway. And a few posts ago mech was just thor, tank, hellion, viking.
Well then explain why both strelok and goody lost to naniwa's collossus + stalker. Did you actually watch those games? They perfectly show why mech is not viable at all.
so your basing of a few gamse that mech if not viable at all and there is no way anyone can beat naniwa with mech play ?
Okay well Dente is clearly just that dude in a forum that tries to lie to himself and prove it to others. In Dente's logic MMM shouldn't even be viable at all because even MMM doesn't win 100% of the time. It's like if a couple guys lose a couple games that makes it completely impossible to do lol. But if the strategy was able to beat the best protoss in the world I don't care how it happened I think it's "viable" if it eliminated the best protoss in the world from a tournament.
And as for not being able to compare sc1 Mech and sc2 Mech you are absolutely 100% able to compare them. Why? Because they are both Mech for pete's pepper.
Anything you say sc2 Mech doesn't have from BW Mech there's garanteed to be a benefit from sc2 Mech to replace it.
For examples. Lack of spider mines,
Hellions do Splash damage, bunkered marines accomplish the same job in keeping stuff away from your tanks long enough for your tanks to shell the enemy. (Besides spider mines often could be used against you imagine a mine following a chargelot in sc2...)
2 supply tanks,
Tanks don't overkill with their fire so they don't really need the 70 damage and the 2 supply as much, the gas cost sucks but I guess blizzard deems the extra 25 gas being there as essential to balance for some dumb reason :/. In BW you needed more tanks because 6-10 of your forward tanks would shot at the first 3 zlots in the charge.
As for the Goliath problem having to produce the marine for the bunkers if enough of a deterrence to allow you to build up the required amount of vikings to deal with anything in the air but you should be making a few vikings the whole time anyways so. Vikings are basically Goliaths they have basically all the same stats except vikings cost a bit more but fly.
And I think anyone who says Mech is not "viable" is dumb because all a strategy needs to be viable is to work and Mech has worked so. I think some people don't like it because you actually have to think when going Mech rather than going Marauders lol.
On January 18 2011 02:51 Raiznhell wrote: And as for not being able to compare sc1 Mech and sc2 Mech you are absolutely 100% able to compare them. Why? Because they are both Mech for pete's pepper.
Anything you say sc2 Mech doesn't have from BW Mech there's garanteed to be a benefit from sc2 Mech to replace it.
For examples. Lack of spider mines,
Hellions do Splash damage, bunkered marines accomplish the same job in keeping stuff away from your tanks long enough for your tanks to shell the enemy. (Besides spider mines often could be used against you imagine a mine following a chargelot in sc2...)
Hardly, spider mine gives you a lot more presence on the map and encourages harassment to replenish vultures and therefore for more spider mines. You can place mines and run off with the vulture, the hellion is stuck next to your army. Hellions strength comes from worker roasts, they are imo far worse for straight up combat usefulness.
On January 18 2011 02:51 Raiznhell wrote:2 supply tanks,
Tanks don't overkill with their fire so they don't really need the 70 damage and the 2 supply as much, the gas cost sucks but I guess blizzard deems the extra 25 gas being there as essential to balance for some dumb reason :/. In BW you needed more tanks because 6-10 of your forward tanks would shot at the first 3 zlots in the charge.
While this is true to an extent, it's countered via splitting your tanks up. 2 supply tanks = a lot longer tank line, which again reduces the impact of immobility, since your army covers more ground. Ontopic, if you have such a spread that 6-10 tanks shoot before something dies(in sc1) then immos are basically your issue in SC2. It's painful to watch when a toss has immo in front and take the first volley from basically all the tanks and then watch chargelots run in, without a scratch.
On January 18 2011 02:51 Raiznhell wrote:As for the Goliath problem having to produce the marine for the bunkers if enough of a deterrence to allow you to build up the required amount of vikings to deal with anything in the air but you should be making a few vikings the whole time anyways so. Vikings are basically Goliaths they have basically all the same stats except vikings cost a bit more but fly.
They however aren't produced from the same structure and don't share upgrades. This a lesser issue though. Mind you though, that marines cost supply, spider mines don't. So while they do help with AA, your meatshield is starting to decrease your tank line even further(if anything, if I was to use rines for AA, I'd likely rather just build turrets, which are stronger in sc2 tho).
On January 18 2011 02:51 Raiznhell wrote:And I think anyone who says Mech is not "viable" is dumb because all a strategy needs to be viable is to work and Mech has worked so. I think some people don't like it because you actually have to think when going Mech rather than going Marauders lol.
It really depends on the definition of viable. From what I've seen, you have to outplay your opponent and tbh in that case be better off just going MMM. I mean you can win with it as has been proven, but from my testing of it, it kind of just felt like handicapping myself. Rather skip tanks alltogether, since for their cost they just don't feel useful enough and there are plenty of other good units in the terran arsenal that provide similar results and don't have as gaping weakness. One of the reasons I play terran is due to the siege tank though, so I'd love to be convinced that it could offer better results than other builds/unit combos.
On January 18 2011 03:17 Dente wrote: Well okay then, it's viable lads, but make sure protoss doesn't build stalkers + collo or immortals with zealots!
hellion/thor/siege tank is extremely effective against these builds in a straight up fight. Thors take and deal an incredible amount of ground damage. Siege tanks also do lots of damage, and its splash. Hellions + blue flame do absurd amounts of damage to zealots. I would be interested to see someone do some unit tests with a mass mech army vs various mass protoss armies to see how they match up. I think that a mech army would do very well against most unit compositions in a head on battle, however as its been pointed out many many times it's very immobile so positioning and scouting is everything.
On January 18 2011 03:17 Dente wrote: Well okay then, it's viable lads, but make sure protoss doesn't build stalkers + collo or immortals with zealots!
hellion/thor/siege tank is extremely effective against these builds in a straight up fight. Thors take and deal an incredible amount of ground damage. Siege tanks also do lots of damage, and its splash. Hellions + blue flame do absurd amounts of damage to zealots. I would be interested to see someone do some unit tests with a mass mech army vs various mass protoss armies to see how they match up. I think that a mech army would do very well against most unit compositions in a head on battle, however as its been pointed out many many times it's very immobile so positioning and scouting is everything.
whell in a unit tester a maxed sieged tank army could beat almost any unit compositions except maybe pure immortals but that doesnt realy help you since you wont have a lot of those perfect condition fights in a real game and the protoss will try to abuse your immobility
On January 18 2011 03:52 giuocob wrote: Are you guys telling Jinro he doesn't know how to play the game or something?
I am telling that jinro his mech worked because 1) mc wasted units on his bunkers, 2) mc never abused the tank immobility, 3) mc never exanded like a zerg.
On January 18 2011 03:52 giuocob wrote: Are you guys telling Jinro he doesn't know how to play the game or something?
I am telling that jinro his mech worked because 1) mc wasted units on his bunkers, 2) mc never abused the tank immobility, 3) mc never exanded like a zerg.
jinro says he beats players that usualy beat him using mech so....
Biggest problem with Mech is that if you lose your army or don't absolutley crush the opposing player you're pretty much done. Takes forever to rebuild a mech army even if you're keeping up with macro and que'ing units while you fight/lose them and reinforcing your army is pretty much not going to happen. In the time it takes your mech units to travel up to your opponents base you've already ethier crushed his army or lost your entire army.
Mech will never be solid. Cause if it was solid, you could do it every match vP on every single map, regardless of positions. The games Jinro played vs MC, are extremely isolated. Close positions LT with a contain against the protoss. MC recovering from attempting a 4gate and chooses stargate tech with carriers and ends up getting countered with double starport reactor vikings.
On January 18 2011 05:07 Talack wrote: Biggest problem with Mech is that if you lose your army or don't absolutley crush the opposing player you're pretty much done. Takes forever to rebuild a mech army even if you're keeping up with macro and que'ing units while you fight/lose them and reinforcing your army is pretty much not going to happen. In the time it takes your mech units to travel up to your opponents base you've already ethier crushed his army or lost your entire army.
Extremely frustrating strat to use.
I don't understand this...if you've got 4 factories, one reactored for hellions you can get a frontline of tanks supporting hellion/marauders is short order.
Reactored starport churns out vikings quickly as well.
On January 18 2011 05:07 Talack wrote: Biggest problem with Mech is that if you lose your army or don't absolutley crush the opposing player you're pretty much done. Takes forever to rebuild a mech army even if you're keeping up with macro and que'ing units while you fight/lose them and reinforcing your army is pretty much not going to happen. In the time it takes your mech units to travel up to your opponents base you've already ethier crushed his army or lost your entire army.
Extremely frustrating strat to use.
I don't understand this...if you've got 4 factories, one reactored for hellions you can get a frontline of tanks supporting hellion/marauders is short order.
Reactored starport churns out vikings quickly as well.
you need a critical # of tank for them to be effective, if you trade armies and you rebuild 4 tanks arent going to help you, you need like 10 tanks for them to start ripping stuff appart, and the toss can just rebuild a gateway army much faster
The TSL final game on LT is a good example of the bigger issue with mech: mobility. Head on, P can at best trade even, but colosi / blink are more mobile. Maps matter, a continuing series :-)
On January 18 2011 05:15 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: Mech will never be solid. Cause if it was solid, you could do it every match vP on every single map, regardless of positions. The games Jinro played vs MC, are extremely isolated. Close positions LT with a contain against the protoss. MC recovering from attempting a 4gate and chooses stargate tech with carriers and ends up getting countered with double starport reactor vikings.
Do you realize that sc is a strategy game and not some lineair stuff?
I really like this against protoss. However, is the 1rax fe necessary? I find that its hard to hold off 4gate (at least for me) until I can get tanks out. Would 3rax into mech or even 2rax into mech be viable? Maybe I just need to practice getting enough marines for 3 bunkers off of 1rax FE to defend against 4gate. :s
Thanks for this thread :D I've been using this strat but with a different opening. Instead of 1 rax with a reactor, i use the 2 rax fe build to be safer against 4 gates and aggressive robo strats. I've been playing diamonds in the mid 2000's and the I only really lose when im too lazy/lack patience to siege hop.
People complain about mobility but are we looking at this from the wrong angle. Banshees provide amazing mobility and great dps in large numbers. When meching and containing etc why not use the power of the contain to get up banshees for harass & added dps that way you can harass and put out fires away from the front line.
On January 18 2011 12:40 ShAdoW101 wrote: Thanks for this thread :D I've been using this strat but with a different opening. Instead of 1 rax with a reactor, i use the 2 rax fe build to be safer against 4 gates and aggressive robo strats. I've been playing diamonds in the mid 2000's and the I only really lose when im too lazy/lack patience to siege hop.
2 rax fe would be an awesome opener, and any type of 1/1/1 or fast tech to tanks before getting your expansion would be awesome too. If the protoss fast expands himself a good opening would be to go for an MMThor timing push, expand and then drop your factories and go ghostmech or regular mech with more marines than usual. It's strong because you already got the armory for upgrades and a safe expansion.
Hey haters! how about adding this strat to your arsenal rather than shooting down?? Obviously Jinro finds it effective in certain situations as we do not see him meching every single game. My advice is to learn the strat and hide it up your sleeve so when it will come in handy you can use it =)
p.s when games on Steppes of War drag out vP, i always mech. Barely any flanks on that map
On January 19 2011 02:01 Garmer wrote: there is only one problem with mech build, :It is much harder to execute than bioball/viking, trust me, for the rest i think is a viable build.
its a lot easier to win in the late game with a 200/200 mech army than with a 200 bio army
On December 30 2010 17:38 giuocob wrote: I'm trying to think of all the things that would give this trouble as a strategy. I'm going to ignore any early rush/all-in strategies, because the early game can be changed to accommodate those, but the end goal of tank+hellion+marine is the same.
Chargelots - these only become a big problem when they get all up in your tanks' face, but honestly, I don't think they're that big of a threat if you can block them with your hellions. A big ball of 10+ blue flame hellions with marines and tanks behind it is going to kill infinity zealots.
Void rays - anything more than a smattering of void rays would give this trouble, so it would need to be scouted. Once scouted, extra marines and/or vikings would be enough to shut this down.
Carriers - pretty much the same as vrs.
High templar - Hellion snipes! Also ghosts if you feel you really need it.
Immortals: These guys actually kinda suck once the tank count starts hitting the double digits. Without impeccable micro, the immortals are all going to lose their shields at once to splash, and then get rolled.
I'd guess the optimal protoss composition to deal with this would be chargelots, templar, and void rays, maybe a few colossi if the tech already existed. But does this actually have a hard counter? If it does, I can't think of one.
Believe it or not DTs of all things were giving me loads of trouble despite building turrets and here's why. Protoss would push and lose a ton of units but realize in the battle the turrets around my tanks would sometimes get taken out and he'd warp in loads of dts and send them all over the place. got really frustrating to deal with. but 90% of the times i lost doing mech strats was being killed off early or the VR tech switch cuz i got lazy with my scouting which is nothing but a noob mistake.
You could work in one or two ravens for detection of DTs..
Below is a direct copy of the Thread above that i made so ignore the OP formating. _____________________________________ THIS IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE VIABILITY OF THIS UNIT COMP. NOT BUILD ORDER/ OPENER/ STYLE
Me like many other Terrans are sick of going mass bio. So i've been working on BioMech and found out that Marine Tank Viking with Heavy Upgrades works great. Jinro has also demonstrated recently the power of PureMech with Heavy Harass. __________________________________ My Replays- I prefer a 1 rax FE throwing down 2 more raxes and then 2 Factories(used to get 3 but cut it out for faster upgrades) and getting fast upgrades. Then adding a 4th rax and Reactors. Later adding Vikings
Currently I'm working on adding Harass and looking for timing windows. Hope these inspire someone. This is my style and currently works for me. It may not work for everyone. And i'm still improving my game by adding harass. But right now my Macro is my strongest aspect and i'm abusing that with my build. __________________________________
What do you think? Personally i find these compositions viable. Yes its harder then Bio, but i believe it is necessary to learn in order to compete with Protoss L8 game. This is not to say one can't open 3rax/2rax bio and transition into Mech/BioMech. You don't have to open straight Mech.
I recently lost a game on Shakuras to a Protoss whose main army was mass upgraded chargelots, high templar, immortals, colossi, and archons. He harassed a ton with warp prisms all over, and dropped archons onto my tanks when I didn't have much anti-air, or it was preoccupied with colossi. He finished me off with carriers, though.
I'll admit I didn't play perfectly, but he basically did, IMO. Here's the replay, if you want to check it out.
defend your collosi with stalkers, when you get into a big confrontation you cant prevent them from dying so just make them useful in the time you have (its not like the terrans army is going to unsiege and run away after killing your collosi lololo)
On January 21 2011 10:25 Salv wrote: So what is the consensus among you Terrans about what us Protoss need to do? Are colossi, HT, gateway units to way to go here?
Just play solid, go a little bit heavier on the zlots than you normally would but they won't count for anything if you don't find a good position to engage from. Clumped zlots against hellions/tank is wasted money. The only composition I wouldn't do is mass blink stalker. Protoss's think blink stalkers are godly and if you have it researched there's situations where it's exploitable sure but Blink Stalkers are extremely easy to stop and usually will only work if the Terran is super sloppy. Otherwise just be solid with your macro because Mech is usually going for a macro game rather than a quick 15 minute game.
The way i have combated this build in the past is exploiting its weakness in mobility. A handful of stargate units and warp prism drops can be super effective.
On January 21 2011 14:11 Blyadischa wrote: I think to beat mech all you have to do is out expand, harass a lot, barely hold mech pushes, then get HT/Carrier, with emphasis on the carriers.
On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote: One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily
I dunno about during the early game but notice in most of the games i surround my base with turrets as well as upgrade the turret range so he can't blink in cuz he needs an obs to see over the cliff. if im not mistaken the observer can't get in range of seeing the turret for the stalkers to shoot after the turret range. i could be wrong on that tho so don't quote me on it.
if the protoss blinks fast he can get up the shelf with an observer spotting through a turret. If he does this he's committing a chunk of troops to your base though, just trap them with siege tanks and minimize your losses then your push will be that much stronger.
hes not committing because he can just blink back down? logic fail.
What do you think? Personally i find these compositions viable. Yes its harder then Bio, but i believe it is necessary to learn in order to compete with Protoss L8 game. This is not to say one can't open 3rax/2rax bio and transition into Mech/BioMech. You don't have to open straight Mech.
Agreed, I'm winning a lot with mech, but I'm starting to transition to more of an even bio/mech midgame...it's very difficult to put early pressure on Toss with a straight mech build...good Toss will drop on you and take advantage before you have the critical mass of tanks that are needed.
On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote: One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily
I dunno about during the early game but notice in most of the games i surround my base with turrets as well as upgrade the turret range so he can't blink in cuz he needs an obs to see over the cliff. if im not mistaken the observer can't get in range of seeing the turret for the stalkers to shoot after the turret range. i could be wrong on that tho so don't quote me on it.
if the protoss blinks fast he can get up the shelf with an observer spotting through a turret. If he does this he's committing a chunk of troops to your base though, just trap them with siege tanks and minimize your losses then your push will be that much stronger.
hes not committing because he can just blink back down? logic fail.
I think what he is saying is it depends on where the terran army is. If the turrets are on the edge the first stalker will blink in after the observer dies. which provides vision for the rest of them. Unless this is the first time you have used blink the terran should know you have it. So when he sees stalkers moving he leaves the most recent production cycle of tanks behind and retreats a few and you start massacring the stalkers as they blink up. Sure you can blink back down but that does take time if they terran player notices you going for blink into the main strategy he can easily prepare an ambush. Like I said at the beginning this is total dependent on where the terran and protoss armies are when the protoss decides to go for this.
Also keep in mind if you decide to go for a massive blink in strategy that means air units and stalkers is all the harass can contain a couple of tanks and a raven or 2 work very well against this.
On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote: One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily
I dunno about during the early game but notice in most of the games i surround my base with turrets as well as upgrade the turret range so he can't blink in cuz he needs an obs to see over the cliff. if im not mistaken the observer can't get in range of seeing the turret for the stalkers to shoot after the turret range. i could be wrong on that tho so don't quote me on it.
if the protoss blinks fast he can get up the shelf with an observer spotting through a turret. If he does this he's committing a chunk of troops to your base though, just trap them with siege tanks and minimize your losses then your push will be that much stronger.
hes not committing because he can just blink back down? logic fail.
blink has a cooldown time, and also if i position my tanks outside my base and some inside then even if he does blink down hes only blinking down into tank fire... if i have tanks near my base this is a dumb move unless youre trying to free up supply.
if my army is across the map then you dont even need to blink in, you could just walk up the ramp.
I'm liking how much Mech TvP I'm seeing lately, avilo Mechs a lot now on his stream and Fenix used it yesterday as well. Not really a revolution at all but it's just now I can actually look forward to watching a TvP XD.
1. Is there a big diference on my economy betwen 1 rax(reactor) FE or 1/1/1 FE??, cuz when i get the first one the protoss contains me, but when i do the second the protoss do a FE, so i do lost the advantage.
2. Usually when i get mech, everything its pretty cool, until the protoss get a 3 expo, and then for me its too hard to move out and take a third, what i shoult do?? its pretty hard on big maps like shakuras
Well at the time i was playing the games that i have posted (I haven't played more than 10 games since the patch so XD) the 2 standard builds among Protoss were 3 gate robo and 4 gate, I've seen MakaPrime.WE do the 1 Rax expand against Protoss before only he went from there into adding additional barracks but I figured why not just go into Mech so I did and it started working.
I find that i can get a really fast mass of units with the 1 rax FE and it counters the fact that Protoss consistently 1 base for a long time. It was very rare that a Protoss would expand faster than me and in such cases I wouldn't alter my plan much it would just be slightly harder in the engagements. If they went nexus first though you could easily bunker rush them after getting your barracks.
But there are many other builds you can do other than 1 Rax FE and 1/1/1, as long as the opening gains you something and you transition into making a bunch of factories your pretty much set. Pick an opening which suits your style.
I should really start playing again and get into Masters because I'm not far off and because I here a lot of people are doing more macro builds and I want to test out a 1 fact double expand using spread out hellions and bunkered marines similar to how BoxeR use to use vultures with spider mines when double expanding in BW and then churning out a ton of Mech really fast.
I'd actually suggest trying to double expand if Toss goes Nexus first.
On February 12 2011 02:54 darkzuka wrote: Great! post ever! but i have some issues :C
1. Is there a big diference on my economy betwen 1 rax(reactor) FE or 1/1/1 FE??, cuz when i get the first one the protoss contains me, but when i do the second the protoss do a FE, so i do lost the advantage.
2. Usually when i get mech, everything its pretty cool, until the protoss get a 3 expo, and then for me its too hard to move out and take a third, what i shoult do?? its pretty hard on big maps like shakuras
3. What about upgrades?? what are esencials?
*Sorry for the bad english :3!!!! and ty
You should be able to hold off any sort of aggression with 1 rax(reactor) FE. Just need to have good scouting and seeing if the toss is expanding or not. So wat if he contains you? just slowly push out with tanks and scoot him out of there and force an engagement in a favorable position. I perfer this over 1/1/1 (FE? cant really fast expand if you go 1/1/1) since you get your expansion wayyyy faster. Usually people who go 1/1/1 are generally teching to something and will be investing money into that so they wont have time to expand. Its kinda hard to go mech on 1 base so i generally 1 rax reactor expand if i see fast fast fast aggression i just pop down a bunker and is safe. When FE, you must learn how to defend any sort of early aggression since you are giving them pure map control.
Try to take a third where you can easily push to his base. So it is easyer to defend.
3. Getting +1 attack will make your tank be able to 3 shot stalkers instead of 4. That is only if he doesnt have +1 armor. If you get +2 it wll always be 3 shot on stalkers.
Yeah getting the +2 weapons on Tanks is what your aiming for then getting your Air upgrades right after Because unless you kill him prior too, Air units will always be the transition of choice in the end game for Protoss.
I recently played a Mech TvP (http://www.mediafire.com/?chkypzt2zivykj3)
and although the scary Toss push earlygame nearly killed me (fortunately my hellions could harass his eco to even things out), I got to 200/200 eventually. So I moved out with mech+ghosts and got crushed and I don't really understand why. I think it was maybe the upgrades? That lost me the game, although I feel like it wouldn't have made much of a difference. Or is it just that you need to deal more with Immortals specifically, like with 250mm cannons or Yamato?
You shouldn't have problems with immortals using this build because your tank count is pretty high. The only time immortals could hurt you is early game with a 3 gate robo build.
Um, Im new to TLforums, and a lowly bronze, so forgive me if im being unintentionally stupid:
I main as Protoss. My build starts at a norm 9pylon. Then I go for gas, and send out a scout beforethe pylon is done. With this probe, I take one, or both enemy gasses, which in my experiance, (aga ai n, not much of that) effectively stops a faster mech build. I've won 9/11 of my last games. If im horably wrong, please tell me. Im all about learning.
EDIT: sorry about any mispellings. Im usimg the Beta TL Android App.
EPT
. Anyways point is the terran isn't scouting but if the protoss does then the toss just does the drop. This build applies 0 early pressure and 0 scouting. This is the equivalent of going mass voidray I don't see how you think you have to cheese to beat this.
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To have the things we know and the things we think need to be figured out in an order. 
