TvP Mech Replays. - Page 12

This.

It also relied a lot on the surprise factor.

MC in the first game went stargate, but his phoenixes didn't catch the medivac drop. He also had a couple chances to break Jinro, but the first time there were no force fields. The second time, he got too greedy and ended up losing 4 immortals when he should have pulled back to let them regenerate shields. At that point Jinro could safely take the gold, and there was little MC could do against the contain.

Personally, MC made the mistake of making a stargate but not getting voidrays. He also chose in both games not to get DT or HT tech. HTs would have softened up the tanks a lot.

Mana vs Naama from the Dreamhack series, for example, shows the power of storm against mech. MC also didn't have enough colossi. If you're going to go robo+stargate, you need to go phoenix+colossus or voidray+immortal+colossus. I think the former is stronger. Otherwise, you go standard protoss colossus+HT and just rape the Terran.

Against the Thor build on scrap, idk why MC went Carriers. Carriers are god awful against marines and vikings. A mothership might have helped, with a vortex, but carriers would have been owned by everything in that unit composition. Thors aren't cost effective, but when repaired they're pretty scary. Thus, MC should have made a LOT of gateway units (rendering the starports ineffective for Jinro) and also messing with the ground army. Protoss players seem to undervalue chargelots, for some reason. They're good against all Terran units save for blue flame hellions, and for those you always have storm.

I think the surprise factor really contributed a lot to MC's loss here.

Hmmm, MC came out on top with the exchange. He had more harvestor and was able to deny the banshee farely well. They both came up fairly even on worker count with MC slightly ahead. So you cant really say that the reason he lost was because of a fail 4 gate.

Dont forget jinro interview guys. He said it depends on the map alot and defintely on those 2 map it was pretty good. Close position LT is beautiful for mech because once you set the gold up you can have a super strong contain. The close position has a weird loopy shape with the gold in the middle and this make good spot for tanks + plantery. Immortal will have to walk around to hit tanks. On scrap, there is a rock you can break down that shrink the distance down amazingly. Also dont forget that void doesnt move fast no more so they can be beaten. But yes, jinro also said he got the build down and it prove to be successful. So i gotta say, it is really good. Now i am some wat convice that mech might be plausible. But the new GSL map will be bigger and thus mech will continue to be less effective?

I highly doubt surprise factor played into it THAT much. I mean sure it affected his opening but he should have figured out Jinro's strategy pretty early on. I mean he made the ideal counters. Zealots, immortals and Air units. Don't think surprise played a huge deal in MC's loss.

Also HTs are a horrible choice to fight Mech as the tanks out-range them and the hellions can pick them off in groups and such. Just my experience anyways.

Did you even watch the gsl?

MC's 4 gate was quote in quote "all in" but did more than enough damage to pay for itself. It was like 25 probes to 15 scvs... I don't really know what you mean by "transitioned" into mech considering he only ever made the one barracks then started a factory and starport... he never even made a marauder or got stim. The carriers would have won MC the game but Jinro spotted them and made a real transition into vikings, getting 2 reactor starports.

actually HT does fairly well against mech. Since HT cause alot of gas you can make zealot. 2 storm well kill tanks i think and that pretty good and tank just sit there and take the hit. HT are better than collosus imo since collosus are kinda vulnerable to viking as well. viking + tanks, both really long range unit wailing at collosus, they drop fast. HT as long as you spread them out they do fairly well. You can argue blueflame own both HT and zealots but if you position your HT properly then it not too bad.

But the main reason why he didnt get HT was because by the time he does get HT, jinro contain would of been unbreakable. Since jinro already began spreading his tanks out + bunker for marine so storm wouldnt be too effective. I dont think storm would of been the answer in this situation. Once the contain is up, he will run some unit to that 9 oclock and just completely dismantles it and it would be gg nonetheless. MC overextended himself when he first broke the contain and lost to many immortals. If he backed off to regain those shield.....the game would of been different.

LOL the people who ripped on the OP about mech not working are about to get ROFLstomped by all the people who stayed up to watch the GSL today.

LiquidJinro vs oGsMC. This series will explain a lot to some of you.

FIrst of all, Jinro has never played against MC with this build.

Second, obviously yes, surprise did play into it. MC mismicroed against Jinro. How often do you see that? You make mistakes when you're caught off guard and you're desperately trying to think of a solution under pressure, on the fly. Look at any of the games where this has happened. Idra vs Clide, Clide panicked. Jinro vs Check, Jinro panicked. You can't come up with a counter build to something when you've just been rolled by it 10 minutes previously, especially not in the NEXT game right after. MC did not know what to do, so he 4-gated.

I have NEVER seen MC 4 gate a Terran. Hell, it's well known that 4 gate is vastly inferior against Terran than against Zerg or Protoss, so it's obvious that MC was hoping to end the game with his own surprise factor. It backfired.

Third, no, MC did not make the proper counters. There were 0 colossus in the game on scrap station. Colossus can pick apart tank lines, and they do pretty well against thors too. You can abuse the range advantage vs Thors. Immortals get stomped by strike cannon, and it was over when MC went carriers. The game was over because they take so damn long to create, they're defeated soundly by the composition Jinro ALREADY had, and their sheer cost makes the Protoss ground army very weak.

WTF? Zealots? I saw MC make maybe 5 zealots at most in the game on Scrap station, and that was with the 4 gate. He never got a twilight council. No blink, no charge, no zealots. I doubt mass stalker would have really helped, but chargelots definitely would have. They're by far the best counter to thors (NOT immortals, immortals get raped by marines and Thors do pretty decently vs them too, because thors have 2 attacks and strike cannon)

I mean, honestly, if MC just had 6 gates pumping zealots, and made anything else he wanted, he would have won. Instead, he didn't have enough gateway units and he got stomped.

And again, look at Mana vs Naama. Mana owns Naama's mech composition several times with storm. He gets contained on one base and comes back to just utterly destroy Naama because he can storm tank lines that cannot avoid the guaranteed 80 damage. If you storm 2 tanks with 1 HT, the HT has paid for himself. HTs also don't die to 2 tank shots, so if you rush a tank line with chargelot/HT, you can break it very easily because the storms essentially halve tank HP and chargelots distract and cause collateral damage. MC displayed neither of these things.

Axslav > Jinro

Don't forget MC was under constant fear of the cloaked banshee, and whether or not there would be more of them.

I don't get how 1 50/150 unit that does 80 damage to 2 tanks and dies ends up paying for itself when it didn't kill anything lol.

But whatever you seem to be very keen to prove that Mech is not viable when clearly it is. You make it sound so easy to beat it yet a player roughly 10,000 times the caliber of player you are couldn't do it TWICE in a row. Yeah Mech will never win you 100% of your games but it's not a terrible strategy or at least as terrible as people like you seem to make it sound.

He went biomech. In game 3 against Mana he had 3 factories, just like Jinro had 3 factories against MC on the LT game. (he might have had 3 fact in the game on Scrap too)

Jinro made hellions instead of Marauders.

However, if MC went the same composition that Mana went in games 3-5, he would have destroyed Jinro. Jinro didn't actually have that many hellions, and their linear splash isn't really that useful. It's kinda counterintuitive, but chargelots are still cost-effective, and storms make slow-pushing VERY difficult. If you catch a clumped Terran, and are persistent, storms pay off in the end.



Because 2 tanks are 300/250.

If you do damage to the tanks, and they're repaired, you've done damage. The Terran has to spend minerals and gas to repair the tank, not only in the repair cost, but the opportunity cost of the SCV not mining.

Secondly, it makes the contain really easy to break. A tank with 80 HP is very easily killed.

Lastly, it's JUST 2 tanks. Usually a storm will catch much more than just 2 tanks. It'll usually catch a bunch of marines, vikings, repairing SCVs, whatnot. This is the same reason chargelots are really effective: they take so much damage, yet they draw splash onto the Terran's units.

MC's decision not to get charge was fatal.

The hellion with micro is cost effective against every gateway unit even stalkers (2 hellions beat 1 stalker which is roughly even resources) so zlots are not cost effective against hellions. The hellions would either have to not be moving at all and there would have to be a 2+:1 cost ratio of zlots:hellions.

Also an HT dieing to simply do damage for the sake of forcing repair would not make him worth it.

That's 50/150 lost to do less than that cost in repair to a couple of siege tanks and the mining time or 1 or 2 SCVs wouldn't be much either assuming he is constantly producing SCVs and is over-saturated at all his bases anyways. To repair a unit from 1 to maximum health only costs 25% of the units overall cost so repairing from 80 to 160 health would not be terribly expensive....

LOL did you just say hellions are cost effective against stalkers?

Really, I don't know what you're smoking.

Hellions are terrible combat units. They're great for harassment, which is why mech has surprise potential. It isn't consistent against good players because hellions are too fragile.

Second, hellion production is very mineral heavy, and those minerals are better spent on marines. There's a reason Jinro only made about 8 hellions in that game vs MC, and it's because he only intended to harass with them. You'll note that he spent the rest of his minerals on marines, because they're better to fight with.

Lastly, I didn't say zealots were cost effective against hellions. I said they're still cost effective even if hellions are around. Zealots are intended to tank damage and break siege tank lines. They still do this even with hellions because of charge. If the hellions are up front, charge will cause the hellions to melt under tank fire (and storms, and the rest of the protoss ball.) If the hellions are in the back, the Protoss ball will kill the Terran tank line even faster despite the loss of zealots, because there will be nothing to absorb the damage for the tanks. The tanks will just die.

If both players lose a majority of their mineral dump units, the Toss is ahead if he loses zealots because the build time is so low and zealot production does not cut into robo buildtime. A loss of hellions, on the other hand, is far more difficult to replace. A loss of tanks is even worse.

Against MC, Jinro had the reinforcing advantage because MC chose to build units that take insanely long to produce. His gateway count was surprisingly low, and on Scrap Station he stubbornly refused to stop making stalkers even though there were no hellions on the field.

EDIT:



Haha oops. I just kinda replied without spoilering my posts cause it was already...well...spoiled. I could go back and add tags?