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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 105

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qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 25 2011 23:03 GMT
#2081
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.
I spent some time just now looking at your reply + Show Spoiler +
21. Re3
and I think you're right: it refutes the move I proposed for Black. + Show Spoiler +
I wouldn't have expected it at first glance, but the threat of Rh3-Rxh2 turns out to play a large role in shutting down Black's options here.

The move I'm looking at now for Black's 20th move, in your line, is that old standby + Show Spoiler +
...c5, putting the question to us immediately, before our pieces have had the chance to regroup. Here, we can't avoid allowing Black a passed pawn, which along with the Bishop pair and the open board seems like it may give him reasonable chances in this position.

Here I'm not sure what our best approach is. We can still trade off Rooks, if we like, but I'm not sure I like the look of that in this line. E.g. 21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Bd2 Rb2 (diagram/PGN viewer) and although we may be two pawns up on him, I'm not sure at all that I like our position.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this move refutes your line, but I do find it worrisome. How would you recommend we reply?
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 23:20:58
October 25 2011 23:07 GMT
#2082
On October 26 2011 02:45 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 01:25 mastergriggy wrote:
My bad with that last line Qrs, here's the corrected version without the five illegal moves for + Show Spoiler +
b3: 18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Bc3 Bxd2 21. Bxd2 Rxb3 22. Bb4


And thanks for the wrap up Qrs, it's looking really nice.
Thanks for clarifying that, mastergriggy; I've corrected the line in the summary, and added a couple of sublines to show that we don't need to give up the pawn (unless I made a mistake).

Thanks for the praise, too. This was by far the hardest and least fun write-up for me to do, and I don't see myself doing it again. On the other hand, I do think that it's very convenient to have all the analysis organized like that, so I think we should give some thought to coming up with a way to do the analysis collaboratively, in future turns--i.e. instead of everyone posting their own analysis as isolated lines, we have a central tree that everyone can edit (e.g. a Google Doc) and post their analysis at the appropriate spot on the tree.


Yeah man, not a problem. I remember the first time I set up an analysis post with like one diagram, it took me like an hour. It's probably a bit faster now, but all of the spoiler nightmares you put up with is really awesome, and how much you've contributed to the thread nearly speaks for itself.

Edit: Also I am very happy about how many different lines and options we have at this point. A lot of the past moves have been forced, but it's good to see more options for us opening up again.

Edot 2:
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.


+ Show Spoiler +
Continuing the first line you give that ends with 22. Nd2, how would you respond to, 22...Rxe3 23. fxe3 Rb5 attacking the pawn? I don't see a defense for it, and additionally, you've cut off a lot of the mobility of the c1 Bishop for white.
Write your own song!
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
October 25 2011 23:34 GMT
#2083
On October 26 2011 08:07 mastergriggy wrote:

Edot 2:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.


+ Show Spoiler +
Continuing the first line you give that ends with 22. Nd2, how would you respond to, 22...Rxe3 23. fxe3 Rb5 attacking the pawn? I don't see a defense for it, and additionally, you've cut off a lot of the mobility of the c1 Bishop for white.


+ Show Spoiler +
unless I've missed something (not at a board atm) we can simply play 24.a4 (then if 24...Rxa5 25.Nb3 and black loses the rook)
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
October 25 2011 23:46 GMT
#2084
On October 25 2011 14:34 mastergriggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 09:00 GenesisX wrote:
On October 25 2011 02:05 Bill Murray wrote:
On October 25 2011 02:01 mastergriggy wrote:
An even better counter to f4 for black, + Show Spoiler +
Bc5, and then we straight out lose a pawn. If we take back with rook, he takes pawn and then the rook. We just lose material flat out.

i obviously meant bc5.


Won't we win in a trade if 18. f4 Bc5 ? We can take his rook with 19. Rxe8, and if he kills rook we can take his bishop?? If he Bxd4, we can move our rook anywhere on row 8 or Rxc8. Please explain x_x



Bxd4 is with check. If we take the rook, he takes pawn and checks us and then we take his rook.


oh. dam I feel stupid T_T
133 221 333 123 111
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 25 2011 23:53 GMT
#2085
On October 26 2011 06:58 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 01:57 Blazinghand wrote:
So, It doesn't look like any move yet has a simple majority, and I'd rather not see a move with like 4-5 votes win. We should all take more time to consider each other's arguments and try to find a good line here and try to get a majority vote for a specific move.

My thoughts: + Show Spoiler +
our bishop is immobile due to the location of our b pawn and our knight, so we should move one of those pieces when we have the opportunity. Moving the knight seems to be the safest plan, which would probably make Nf1 our move, but I hate playing Nf1 since it's not a great spot for the knight-- it's just not blocking the bishop. Does anyone have any better suggestions?


I'm not sure we can make any major pawn progress here, but the possibility of a simplification in our favor exists, so I'm going to, for the moment, Abstain, and Not Offer Draw.

This is a good point. It's nice to see such a variety of moves, and that there is no clear majority. However, that also implies that we don't really have a clear plan or immediate goal here.

I think our priority in this position is to eliminate our queenside cramp so that we can develop the bishop and connect rooks, which is why I am supporting the move b4. It is the most immediate and direct way of resolving our queenside cramp. The knight moves do nothing to aid this goal.

It is possible that b3 is a good way to do the same thing, but it feels weaker for a few reasons:

1) With b3, black is still bearing down on our b-pawn, and we must defend it, which means a minor piece will be restrained. Playing b4 eliminates this problem.

2) If we play b4 a5 bxa5, black will eventually have to spend a tempo or two recapturing our a-pawn, giving an additional move or two to improve our position down the line. This isn't the case with b3.

3) Having a pawn on b3 will also eliminate the possibility of Nb3, which we have seen in a couple variations to be a strong move.

4) b4 is a more forcing move. It limits black's responses or options in a way that b3 doesn't.
As far as the general idea that we need to look to our Queenside before tinkering with the Knight, I fully agree, as I've already said. As for the question of b4 vs. b3, you make some good points, jd, but you're only putting one side of the case, so I'll take up the other. Following your numbers:
+ Show Spoiler [top secret strategical matters] +
1) It's true that b3 ties down at least one of our pieces to protecting it, which b4 does not. However, b4 limits us in other ways: specifically, the entire b-file becomes off limits to our pieces. This is a severe limitation, in my opinion: worse than the one that you describe, for two reasons:
  • b3 ties our Knight to d2 for the time being--but d2 is a good square for our Knight. It is relatively safe from attack there, and it controls a number of useful squares, including b3, b1, and c5. We don't need to put it elsewhere--and in fact, in many lines we want it just where it is now.

    By contrast, opening the b-file limits our Bishop from going to b2, and it would emphatically prefer b2 to the square it is now, c1. Yes, there are other useful squares that it may be able to get to eventually, but it takes time to get to them (for one thing, the Knight needs to be moved out of the way), and time is a luxury that we do not necessarily have.
  • The restriction of b3 is a temporary one--Black will not be able to prevent us from eventually freeing the Knight from defending the b-pawn, whether with a (better-prepared) b4 or by defending it with a different piece (such as a Rb1). By contrast, the open b-file is a issue that persists indefinitely.
+ Show Spoiler [caveat] +
There's an important caveat to make: as you pointed out, with our Knight on d2 we can contest the b-file directly, once it's cleared, with Rb1. However, I'm not convinced that it's in our best interest to simplify, in that way. Here's a particular line following 20. Rb1 that I gave in my earlier post as concerning me a little: diagram/PGN viewer. The line is fairly forced, if Black wants it.

I definitely think that we still have a slight edge in the above position, but is it enough of an edge to push through the win, on this simplified board, with Black having the Bishop pair and plenty of mobility, keeping in mind the latent possibility of Black's trading dark-squared Bishop for Knight to reach an opposite-colored Bishop ending (where his Bishop controls the Queening square of our passed pawn)? I'm not convinced. Sure, if this was the best we had, I wouldn't shed tears, and I'd still think we had a shot at a win, but I'm not eager to rush into this endgame.

2) I admit that this is an advantage of b4.

3) Again, this issue is more double-edged than you make it sound. It's true that b4, unlike b3, presents the immediate threat of Nb3, but that's all it is: a threat. It has the result of more or less forcing Black to play the immediate ...a5 (which he would likely, though not necessarily, have played anyhow), and after that, its role is done: with an open b-file and Black's a-pawn gone, we neither can nor particularly want to place a Knight on b3.

Meanwhile, in the b3 lines, we can imagine the possibility of Nb3 at some time in the future, although I concede that it's not particularly likely. Mainly, though, my response to this point is that Nb3 (so far as I have seen) does not have much of a role to play in either the b4 or the b3 lines. It's possible that you've analyzed a line that hasn't come to my attention, of course.

4) This one is the crux of the difference, in my opinion. You put it very well; the only word I'd change in your sentence is the word "black's". b4 is a more forcing move. It limits both sides' responses or options in a way that b3 doesn't. In one case we may talk about "forcing" vs. "non-forcing" and in the other about "flexible" vs. "inflexible", but they're really two sides of the same coin.

What this debate boils down to, I believe, is that b4 forces the game down certain lines--lines where we have a slight advantage, as far as I've seen, but not necessarily enough of one to win. If I was confident that these lines were good for us, and not drawish, I'd be on board with you and b4. Since I'm not, I prefer the flexibility of b3, delaying simplification and keeping the board slightly more closed--at the price, I grant you, of giving us (but Black as well!) more things to worry about.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 00:53:50
October 26 2011 00:51 GMT
#2086
Top secret?

I feel like a kid who's the only one left out of a party.

Edit: There also are not too many votes. I'm kind of afraid of sending out a last day reminder, because then people might just rush their move and it will be decided in a random manner. I could give you some extra time, but I will be busy for two days straight after tomorrow, so chances are I won't even look here till Saturday after tomorrow.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 01:31:04
October 26 2011 01:23 GMT
#2087
On October 26 2011 08:53 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 06:58 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On October 26 2011 01:57 Blazinghand wrote:
So, It doesn't look like any move yet has a simple majority, and I'd rather not see a move with like 4-5 votes win. We should all take more time to consider each other's arguments and try to find a good line here and try to get a majority vote for a specific move.

My thoughts: + Show Spoiler +
our bishop is immobile due to the location of our b pawn and our knight, so we should move one of those pieces when we have the opportunity. Moving the knight seems to be the safest plan, which would probably make Nf1 our move, but I hate playing Nf1 since it's not a great spot for the knight-- it's just not blocking the bishop. Does anyone have any better suggestions?


I'm not sure we can make any major pawn progress here, but the possibility of a simplification in our favor exists, so I'm going to, for the moment, Abstain, and Not Offer Draw.

This is a good point. It's nice to see such a variety of moves, and that there is no clear majority. However, that also implies that we don't really have a clear plan or immediate goal here.

I think our priority in this position is to eliminate our queenside cramp so that we can develop the bishop and connect rooks, which is why I am supporting the move b4. It is the most immediate and direct way of resolving our queenside cramp. The knight moves do nothing to aid this goal.

It is possible that b3 is a good way to do the same thing, but it feels weaker for a few reasons:

1) With b3, black is still bearing down on our b-pawn, and we must defend it, which means a minor piece will be restrained. Playing b4 eliminates this problem.

2) If we play b4 a5 bxa5, black will eventually have to spend a tempo or two recapturing our a-pawn, giving an additional move or two to improve our position down the line. This isn't the case with b3.

3) Having a pawn on b3 will also eliminate the possibility of Nb3, which we have seen in a couple variations to be a strong move.

4) b4 is a more forcing move. It limits black's responses or options in a way that b3 doesn't.
As far as the general idea that we need to look to our Queenside before tinkering with the Knight, I fully agree, as I've already said. As for the question of b4 vs. b3, you make some good points, jd, but you're only putting one side of the case, so I'll take up the other. Following your numbers:
+ Show Spoiler [top secret strategical matters] +
1) It's true that b3 ties down at least one of our pieces to protecting it, which b4 does not. However, b4 limits us in other ways: specifically, the entire b-file becomes off limits to our pieces. This is a severe limitation, in my opinion: worse than the one that you describe, for two reasons:
  • b3 ties our Knight to d2 for the time being--but d2 is a good square for our Knight. It is relatively safe from attack there, and it controls a number of useful squares, including b3, b1, and c5. We don't need to put it elsewhere--and in fact, in many lines we want it just where it is now.

    By contrast, opening the b-file limits our Bishop from going to b2, and it would emphatically prefer b2 to the square it is now, c1. Yes, there are other useful squares that it may be able to get to eventually, but it takes time to get to them (for one thing, the Knight needs to be moved out of the way), and time is a luxury that we do not necessarily have.
  • The restriction of b3 is a temporary one--Black will not be able to prevent us from eventually freeing the Knight from defending the b-pawn, whether with a (better-prepared) b4 or by defending it with a different piece (such as a Rb1). By contrast, the open b-file is a issue that persists indefinitely.
+ Show Spoiler [caveat] +
There's an important caveat to make: as you pointed out, with our Knight on d2 we can contest the b-file directly, once it's cleared, with Rb1. However, I'm not convinced that it's in our best interest to simplify, in that way. Here's a particular line following 20. Rb1 that I gave in my earlier post as concerning me a little: diagram/PGN viewer. The line is fairly forced, if Black wants it.

I definitely think that we still have a slight edge in the above position, but is it enough of an edge to push through the win, on this simplified board, with Black having the Bishop pair and plenty of mobility, keeping in mind the latent possibility of Black's trading dark-squared Bishop for Knight to reach an opposite-colored Bishop ending (where his Bishop controls the Queening square of our passed pawn)? I'm not convinced. Sure, if this was the best we had, I wouldn't shed tears, and I'd still think we had a shot at a win, but I'm not eager to rush into this endgame.

2) I admit that this is an advantage of b4.

3) Again, this issue is more double-edged than you make it sound. It's true that b4, unlike b3, presents the immediate threat of Nb3, but that's all it is: a threat. It has the result of more or less forcing Black to play the immediate ...a5 (which he would likely, though not necessarily, have played anyhow), and after that, its role is done: with an open b-file and Black's a-pawn gone, we neither can nor particularly want to place a Knight on b3.

Meanwhile, in the b3 lines, we can imagine the possibility of Nb3 at some time in the future, although I concede that it's not particularly likely. Mainly, though, my response to this point is that Nb3 (so far as I have seen) does not have much of a role to play in either the b4 or the b3 lines. It's possible that you've analyzed a line that hasn't come to my attention, of course.

4) This one is the crux of the difference, in my opinion. You put it very well; the only word I'd change in your sentence is the word "black's". b4 is a more forcing move. It limits both sides' responses or options in a way that b3 doesn't. In one case we may talk about "forcing" vs. "non-forcing" and in the other about "flexible" vs. "inflexible", but they're really two sides of the same coin.

What this debate boils down to, I believe, is that b4 forces the game down certain lines--lines where we have a slight advantage, as far as I've seen, but not necessarily enough of one to win. If I was confident that these lines were good for us, and not drawish, I'd be on board with you and b4. Since I'm not, I prefer the flexibility of b3, delaying simplification and keeping the board slightly more closed--at the price, I grant you, of giving us (but Black as well!) more things to worry about.

You make some very good points. However, regarding point #1, let's not forget that we have the possibility of eventually contesting the b-file with Rb1, which is currently supported by the knight. I think it would also help the discussion to talk about where we would ideally like to put our bishop, since that is a very important consideration which hasn't really been discussed yet.

At a first glance, I like the d2 square. It hits the squares a5, b4, and also keeps an eye on the kingside. Therefore, I'd lean against developing with a3 Bb2. With b3 our knight is currently stuck defending our b-pawn and blocking our bishop from it's ideal square.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
dtvu
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia687 Posts
October 26 2011 01:27 GMT
#2088
I vote 18. b4
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
October 26 2011 01:45 GMT
#2089
18. b3

+ Show Spoiler +
At first I wanted to play b4, but then b3 was interesting, and it is not as committing as b4. b4 could run into some trouble with black playing a5, and also it gives us some more options with our bishop. This move was the hardest move for me to decide so far, i'm still not sure if this is the best move to play here.
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
Raysalis
Profile Joined July 2010
Malaysia1034 Posts
October 26 2011 02:14 GMT
#2090
18. Nb1

+ Show Spoiler +


I am surprise by Re8 since i expect the rook to go to g8 at some point. The move i expected was a5 and then a4 to lock down our queenside pawns. The only reason I can see for Re8 is that Ng5 wants to gain control of the e file, probably after a plan like Ba6 to connect the rooks first then Bd6, since our bishop still needs to defend the b pawn and block us from connecting our own rook.

The 2 plan i am contemplating is b4 or Nb1. I like Nb1 more so i will choose that.

18. b4 a5 19. bxa5 dont really like the position although we are 2 pawns up so we can give up the a5 pawn for development. Maybe we are better here? I dunno
after 18.b4 Ba6 19. Bb2 Bd6 20. Nb3 black can probably swap all the rooks off after 20...Rxe1 21. Rxe1 Re8 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 and black is still a pawn down but have the 2 bishops. If 23. Nc5 Bxc5 and black can probably hold the opposite colour bishop endgame.

.The reason i like 18.Nb1 over Nf1 is that Nb1 stop black from playing the a5-a4 plan.
ie. 18. Nf1 a5 and black can go a4 the next move.
ie. 18. Nb1 a5 19. Nc3 stops black from going a4
if black try to challenge the e file ie. 18 Nb1 Ba6 19. Nc3 Bd6, we can probably go 20. Rxe8 Rxe8 21. Be3 Bc4 and 22.b4 and i like white position more

:)
indigoawareness
Profile Joined October 2010
Slovakia273 Posts
October 26 2011 02:43 GMT
#2091
b3
To sleep, perchance to dream.
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 08:46:22
October 26 2011 04:23 GMT
#2092
On October 26 2011 08:03 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.
I spent some time just now looking at your reply + Show Spoiler +
21. Re3
and I think you're right: it refutes the move I proposed for Black. + Show Spoiler +
I wouldn't have expected it at first glance, but the threat of Rh3-Rxh2 turns out to play a large role in shutting down Black's options here.

The move I'm looking at now for Black's 20th move, in your line, is that old standby + Show Spoiler +
...c5, putting the question to us immediately, before our pieces have had the chance to regroup. Here, we can't avoid allowing Black a passed pawn, which along with the Bishop pair and the open board seems like it may give him reasonable chances in this position.

Here I'm not sure what our best approach is. We can still trade off Rooks, if we like, but I'm not sure I like the look of that in this line. E.g. 21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Bd2 Rb2 (diagram/PGN viewer) and although we may be two pawns up on him, I'm not sure at all that I like our position.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this move refutes your line, but I do find it worrisome. How would you recommend we reply?


Sorry I missed this before, I probably shouldn't spend too much time on this since I'm at uni... but what the hell lol
+ Show Spoiler +
after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 c5 we have the option of playing 21.Ne3 since 21...cxd4 22.Nxd5 Bd8 23.Rxd8 Kxd8 and blacks bishop must defend f6 otherwise we have 3v1 on the kingside. So as long as we can prevent the pawn from promoting we will be fine

[image loading]

maybe 24.Bd2 Rb2 25.Bb4 Bc4 26.Nf4 (edit: Nb6 here might make 25...Bc4 not such a good move) d3 25.Rd1 and I don't see the pawn promoting since black needs his dark square bishop to defend d2, but e.g. 25...f5 (intending to play 26...Bg4) 26.g3 Bg4 27.Nxd3 and we will win from here

[image loading]

Better for black might be 21...Kc6 (or not lol after 22.Nf5 Rb7 23.Re6+ and black is losing the bishop)


Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes, I'm not used to that pgn editor
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
October 26 2011 05:37 GMT
#2093
On October 26 2011 08:34 hype[NZ] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 08:07 mastergriggy wrote:

Edot 2:
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.


+ Show Spoiler +
Continuing the first line you give that ends with 22. Nd2, how would you respond to, 22...Rxe3 23. fxe3 Rb5 attacking the pawn? I don't see a defense for it, and additionally, you've cut off a lot of the mobility of the c1 Bishop for white.


+ Show Spoiler +
unless I've missed something (not at a board atm) we can simply play 24.a4 (then if 24...Rxa5 25.Nb3 and black loses the rook)


Alright, good call. In that case, that line doesn't look as bad for white as I thought.
Write your own song!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 26 2011 09:11 GMT
#2094
On October 26 2011 10:23 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 08:53 qrs wrote:
On October 26 2011 06:58 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On October 26 2011 01:57 Blazinghand wrote:
So, It doesn't look like any move yet has a simple majority, and I'd rather not see a move with like 4-5 votes win. We should all take more time to consider each other's arguments and try to find a good line here and try to get a majority vote for a specific move.

My thoughts: + Show Spoiler +
our bishop is immobile due to the location of our b pawn and our knight, so we should move one of those pieces when we have the opportunity. Moving the knight seems to be the safest plan, which would probably make Nf1 our move, but I hate playing Nf1 since it's not a great spot for the knight-- it's just not blocking the bishop. Does anyone have any better suggestions?


I'm not sure we can make any major pawn progress here, but the possibility of a simplification in our favor exists, so I'm going to, for the moment, Abstain, and Not Offer Draw.

This is a good point. It's nice to see such a variety of moves, and that there is no clear majority. However, that also implies that we don't really have a clear plan or immediate goal here.

I think our priority in this position is to eliminate our queenside cramp so that we can develop the bishop and connect rooks, which is why I am supporting the move b4. It is the most immediate and direct way of resolving our queenside cramp. The knight moves do nothing to aid this goal.

It is possible that b3 is a good way to do the same thing, but it feels weaker for a few reasons:

1) With b3, black is still bearing down on our b-pawn, and we must defend it, which means a minor piece will be restrained. Playing b4 eliminates this problem.

2) If we play b4 a5 bxa5, black will eventually have to spend a tempo or two recapturing our a-pawn, giving an additional move or two to improve our position down the line. This isn't the case with b3.

3) Having a pawn on b3 will also eliminate the possibility of Nb3, which we have seen in a couple variations to be a strong move.

4) b4 is a more forcing move. It limits black's responses or options in a way that b3 doesn't.
As far as the general idea that we need to look to our Queenside before tinkering with the Knight, I fully agree, as I've already said. As for the question of b4 vs. b3, you make some good points, jd, but you're only putting one side of the case, so I'll take up the other. Following your numbers:
+ Show Spoiler [top secret strategical matters] +
1) It's true that b3 ties down at least one of our pieces to protecting it, which b4 does not. However, b4 limits us in other ways: specifically, the entire b-file becomes off limits to our pieces. This is a severe limitation, in my opinion: worse than the one that you describe, for two reasons:
  • b3 ties our Knight to d2 for the time being--but d2 is a good square for our Knight. It is relatively safe from attack there, and it controls a number of useful squares, including b3, b1, and c5. We don't need to put it elsewhere--and in fact, in many lines we want it just where it is now.

    By contrast, opening the b-file limits our Bishop from going to b2, and it would emphatically prefer b2 to the square it is now, c1. Yes, there are other useful squares that it may be able to get to eventually, but it takes time to get to them (for one thing, the Knight needs to be moved out of the way), and time is a luxury that we do not necessarily have.
  • The restriction of b3 is a temporary one--Black will not be able to prevent us from eventually freeing the Knight from defending the b-pawn, whether with a (better-prepared) b4 or by defending it with a different piece (such as a Rb1). By contrast, the open b-file is a issue that persists indefinitely.
+ Show Spoiler [caveat] +
There's an important caveat to make: as you pointed out, with our Knight on d2 we can contest the b-file directly, once it's cleared, with Rb1. However, I'm not convinced that it's in our best interest to simplify, in that way. Here's a particular line following 20. Rb1 that I gave in my earlier post as concerning me a little: diagram/PGN viewer. The line is fairly forced, if Black wants it.

I definitely think that we still have a slight edge in the above position, but is it enough of an edge to push through the win, on this simplified board, with Black having the Bishop pair and plenty of mobility, keeping in mind the latent possibility of Black's trading dark-squared Bishop for Knight to reach an opposite-colored Bishop ending (where his Bishop controls the Queening square of our passed pawn)? I'm not convinced. Sure, if this was the best we had, I wouldn't shed tears, and I'd still think we had a shot at a win, but I'm not eager to rush into this endgame.

2) I admit that this is an advantage of b4.

3) Again, this issue is more double-edged than you make it sound. It's true that b4, unlike b3, presents the immediate threat of Nb3, but that's all it is: a threat. It has the result of more or less forcing Black to play the immediate ...a5 (which he would likely, though not necessarily, have played anyhow), and after that, its role is done: with an open b-file and Black's a-pawn gone, we neither can nor particularly want to place a Knight on b3.

Meanwhile, in the b3 lines, we can imagine the possibility of Nb3 at some time in the future, although I concede that it's not particularly likely. Mainly, though, my response to this point is that Nb3 (so far as I have seen) does not have much of a role to play in either the b4 or the b3 lines. It's possible that you've analyzed a line that hasn't come to my attention, of course.

4) This one is the crux of the difference, in my opinion. You put it very well; the only word I'd change in your sentence is the word "black's". b4 is a more forcing move. It limits both sides' responses or options in a way that b3 doesn't. In one case we may talk about "forcing" vs. "non-forcing" and in the other about "flexible" vs. "inflexible", but they're really two sides of the same coin.

What this debate boils down to, I believe, is that b4 forces the game down certain lines--lines where we have a slight advantage, as far as I've seen, but not necessarily enough of one to win. If I was confident that these lines were good for us, and not drawish, I'd be on board with you and b4. Since I'm not, I prefer the flexibility of b3, delaying simplification and keeping the board slightly more closed--at the price, I grant you, of giving us (but Black as well!) more things to worry about.

You make some very good points. However, regarding point #1, let's not forget that we have the possibility of eventually contesting the b-file with Rb1, which is currently supported by the knight.
I didn't forget that. I addressed it in a spoiler marked "caveat". Basically: + Show Spoiler [classified] +
I gave one line where we play Rb1 immediately, and, though it leads to an endgame where we keep our one-pawn advantage, I wasn't sure that it was enough of an advantage to win with, given Black's greater mobility in that position. Perhaps you take a more optimistic view of that endgame, though.

Meanwhile, if we don't play Rb1 immediately, then it's not clear to me when or how we'll be able to. After all, in the b4 lines, d2 is only a temporary post for the Knight, and once it leaves, b1 is unsupported again. If we safely manage to connect Rooks, then b1 would once more be supported, but for one thing, that's at least two moves down the line (we have to move the Knight, then the Bishop), and Black won't be standing still during that time either--he can continue with his own plans (probably involving the old ...c5) to put pressure on us. For another, even once b1 is protected by a Rook, we're not entirely in the clear: Black still may (partly depending on where we post our Knight) have tactics involving a two-Rook showdown down the b- and e-files, where the back-rank check (and threat of mate) means that we may lose, even if we get first draw, much as in the story Shane.

Do you have any specific b4 lines that you've liked the look of, where we get to contest the b-file with Rb1?

I think it would also help the discussion to talk about where we would ideally like to put our bishop, since that is a very important consideration which hasn't really been discussed yet.

At a first glance, I like the d2 square. It hits the squares a5, b4, and also keeps an eye on the kingside. Therefore, I'd lean against developing with a3 Bb2. With b3 our knight is currently stuck defending our b-pawn and blocking our bishop from it's ideal square.
I agree with you in the abstract that, ideally, d2 is a better square for our Bishop than b2. However, we can't think only in ideal terms. + Show Spoiler [more classified stuff] +
b2 has the great practical advantage of convenience: we can move there safely and quickly in one move, after b3. To reach d2, on the other hand, we need to move our Knight at least once, and we'll probably have to move it again for it to reach a useful square. (Also note that if that square becomes e3, then we are at least temporarily eliminating most of the extra mobility provided by Bd2 over Bb2.) While we do all this, Black may be able to restrict us in other ways, simply by applying pressure (for instance, to the a3 pawn, forcing us to leave our Bishop behind to defend it).

Meanwhile, after Bb2, we can move to c3 in just one more step--still not quite as good as d2, but an improvement (it hits the squares a5 and b4, though not the Kingside).

In short: we can discuss which square would be ideally better for our Bishop (and as I said, I agree with you there), but I think we agree that its top priority at present is simply to vacate c1, where it does relatively little for us and badly obstructs our position. b2 is to hand, whereas d2 is a bit more complicated. I'm not definitively saying that we can't play our Bishop there without making other compromises, but here again, I'd like to see some specific lines where we play Bd2 in a way that you're happy with.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
October 26 2011 09:32 GMT
#2095
I might not be able to close the votes properly tomorrow night.

In that case I will most likely not be able to touch this thread till later Saturday.

Also if that happens feel free to go on discussing and voting as long as I don't state the deadline is over with.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 26 2011 09:38 GMT
#2096
On October 26 2011 13:23 hype[NZ] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 08:03 qrs wrote:
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.
I spent some time just now looking at your reply + Show Spoiler +
21. Re3
and I think you're right: it refutes the move I proposed for Black. + Show Spoiler +
I wouldn't have expected it at first glance, but the threat of Rh3-Rxh2 turns out to play a large role in shutting down Black's options here.

The move I'm looking at now for Black's 20th move, in your line, is that old standby + Show Spoiler +
...c5, putting the question to us immediately, before our pieces have had the chance to regroup. Here, we can't avoid allowing Black a passed pawn, which along with the Bishop pair and the open board seems like it may give him reasonable chances in this position.

Here I'm not sure what our best approach is. We can still trade off Rooks, if we like, but I'm not sure I like the look of that in this line. E.g. 21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Bd2 Rb2 (diagram/PGN viewer) and although we may be two pawns up on him, I'm not sure at all that I like our position.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this move refutes your line, but I do find it worrisome. How would you recommend we reply?


Sorry I missed this before, I probably shouldn't spend too much time on this since I'm at uni... but what the hell lol
+ Show Spoiler +
after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 c5 we have the option of playing 21.Ne3 since 21...cxd4 22.Nxd5 Bd8 23.Rxd8 Kxd8 and blacks bishop must defend f6 otherwise we have 3v1 on the kingside. So as long as we can prevent the pawn from promoting we will be fine

[image loading]

maybe 24.Bd2 Rb2 25.Bb4 Bc4 26.Nf4 (edit: Nb6 here might make 25...Bc4 not such a good move) d3 25.Rd1 and I don't see the pawn promoting since black needs his dark square bishop to defend d2, but e.g. 25...f5 (intending to play 26...Bg4) 26.g3 Bg4 27.Nxd3 and we will win from here

[image loading]

Better for black might be 21...Kc6 (or not lol after 22.Nf5 Rb7 23.Re6+ and black is losing the bishop)


Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes, I'm not used to that pgn editor
+ Show Spoiler +
My thought for Black if we opted for 21. Ne3 had been 21...Kc6, as you suggest. It seems a better move here than in lines where it's played ahead of the c-pawn.

I hadn't fully seen the strength of 22. Nf5, which you point out, but I don't think it makes a difference: after 22...Bf8, we are again faced with the immediate threat of ...R(x)e1#, and once we deal with that, in whatever way we choose to, Black can play c4, giving him a passed pawn that is already in our territory, that we currently have no way to threaten (as it is supported on c4 by his d-pawn), and that he can easily move to support with all of his pieces (King included), whereas our King is far away. (sample diagram/line in PGN viewer).

Again, this isn't a line where I think we necessarily have serious problems, but it's one that I find worrisome enough to prefer avoiding b4, since b3 gives us an alternative.
Sorry about the PGN editor, by the way. I use it because it's online, and easily accessible for everyone. It does take a little getting used to, but once you do, I find it reasonably flexible and easy to use. Don't overlook the button "Chessboard Editor in New Window" (which makes it easy to link to specific positions and lines), and the ones marked "<<<" and ">>>" where you can move the position back and forth from a second board that allows you to move (or remove, or add) pieces freely, without worrying about boring details like whose turn it is, or whether a move is technically legal. (Do overlook the button marked "Play This Position Against Computer"--we shouldn't be using that. ;-)
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 26 2011 09:59 GMT
#2097
On October 26 2011 11:14 Raysalis wrote:
18. Nb1

+ Show Spoiler +


I am surprise by Re8 since i expect the rook to go to g8 at some point. The move i expected was a5 and then a4 to lock down our queenside pawns. The only reason I can see for Re8 is that Ng5 wants to gain control of the e file, probably after a plan like Ba6 to connect the rooks first then Bd6, since our bishop still needs to defend the b pawn and block us from connecting our own rook.

The 2 plan i am contemplating is b4 or Nb1. I like Nb1 more so i will choose that.

18. b4 a5 19. bxa5 dont really like the position although we are 2 pawns up so we can give up the a5 pawn for development. Maybe we are better here? I dunno
after 18.b4 Ba6 19. Bb2 Bd6 20. Nb3 black can probably swap all the rooks off after 20...Rxe1 21. Rxe1 Re8 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 and black is still a pawn down but have the 2 bishops. If 23. Nc5 Bxc5 and black can probably hold the opposite colour bishop endgame.

.The reason i like 18.Nb1 over Nf1 is that Nb1 stop black from playing the a5-a4 plan.
ie. 18. Nf1 a5 and black can go a4 the next move.
ie. 18. Nb1 a5 19. Nc3 stops black from going a4
if black try to challenge the e file ie. 18 Nb1 Ba6 19. Nc3 Bd6, we can probably go 20. Rxe8 Rxe8 21. Be3 Bc4 and 22.b4 and i like white position more

The main thing that concerns me about the move you advocate is + Show Spoiler +
the possibility of Black's being able to paralyze us (assuming we intend to keep our extra pawn) by locking down our Queenside while continuing to threaten the b-pawn. You've partly addressed that, by showing how Nb1 defends against ...a4, but I don't think that that alone is enough to address the issue:
  1. Black still has ...a5 at his disposal, and even ...a5 is enough to create problems for us. ...a5 before we've played b4 stops us from playing b4 without losing a pawn.

    The main point of ...a4 is to stop us from playing b3 as well, but once we move the Knight off d2, b3 is not an option either. Sure, we could imagine supporting that with an eventual Rb1, but a Rook on b1 can be easily driven off by Black's light-squared Bishop.
  2. Don't forget about the third move at Black's disposal for locking down the Queenside: the blockading move ...Rb3. While Nb1-c3 defends ...a4, as you say, it makes ...Rb3 stronger (imo), since it prevents us from confronting that Rook with Re3.
When all of these factors are taken together, I'm very concerned that Nb1 doesn't do enough to solve our issues with the Queenside. If you can show me a specific line (any line--it doesn't need to be forced) where we play Nb1, Black proceeds with the ...a5/(...a4)/...Rb3 plan, and we still manage to activate our pieces without dropping the b-pawn, then I'll reconsider Nb1.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 26 2011 10:01 GMT
#2098
Here's the updated vote count:
Move 18 votes

+ Show Spoiler [votes] +
18. Nf1: 2 (mastergriggy, EvilNalu)
18. Nf3: 1 (Cloud9157)
18. b4: 6 (Malli, jdseemoreglass, Bill Murray, itsjustatank, lightman, hype[NZ], dtvu)
18. h3: 0 (Bill Murray)
18. f4: 1 (timh, keyStorm)
18. Nb1: 2 (Chezus, Raysalis)
18. b3: 5 (wizard944, qrs, A-tan, chesshaha, indigoawareness)
Abstain: 4 (hp.Shell, Bill Murray, timh, Blazinghand)
+ Show Spoiler [bar graph] +
[image loading]
Total voters (including abstentions): 19 out of 39 active players

On October 26 2011 18:32 Ng5 wrote:
I might not be able to close the votes properly tomorrow night.

In that case I will most likely not be able to touch this thread till later Saturday.

Also if that happens feel free to go on discussing and voting as long as I don't state the deadline is over with.
Thanks!
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
October 26 2011 11:01 GMT
#2099
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=748012
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
October 26 2011 16:00 GMT
#2100
Nf1
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
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