On April 21 2012 00:34 Thauleris wrote: The other thing that amuses me about the SC scene is that they mock SC2 for being simple. Go look at SC when it was a year or two years after release. Tell me the meta was more evolved then for the SC2 scene is now. It's not because the game is bad, it's because it hasn't had a decade and a half to become the game SC is now. If you don't like SC2 then help change it instead of sitting around pining for days gone by.
you're recycling the same argument that's been periodically made and discredited for like two years now. bw's proscene singlehandedly brought the RTS genre to theoretical maturity over its "decade and a half." sc2's metagame and theory had every single one of those years to build off of from the moment it was released, and two years since then to extend it further. tell me, honestly, that sc2's lived up to where it should be given all its advantages.
also, the sc2 design team has no good excuse to not learn from all the years of the bw proscene either. unfortunately, browder and all the rest are obsessed with toppling bw, and are too proud to take away anything good from the bw scene ("if you like bw go play bw" etc), such as defender's advantage, map control, etc. HOTS is a half-hearted, grudging step in the right direction, but even those are transparent knockoffs of good bw units.
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much. the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
On April 21 2012 00:29 Thauleris wrote: The reason the SC2 scene is crushing the SC scene is that SC is so incredibly hard to get in to. Virtually no one gets into starcraft these days because they recently started playing SC, so the only way is to get "in" is to watch videos that are all in korean and talk to people who make it plain that they utterly despise you because you come from SC2. That doesn't sound like a recipe for a miracle comeback for the SC scene...
Well i played a little bit of BW, and i didn't get any hate for being from SC2. But i totally agree that getting into BW is hard, in SC2 getting a game is like 1 min absolute max on the ladder, but in BW it can take up to 30 mins for me because I can't host, and on some times it would be impossible to even just find one game. Also couple that with the fact that the SC2 foreign scene is huge, the BW one is tiny and foreigners can't compete with Koreans at all, usually just 1 BW stream online on TL, only 2 good English casters, in SC2 there is just more motivation for me to play because of those things.
Edit:// Fantasy? Zerg? Nooooo.............. I'll still cheer for him tho..
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much. the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
fuck this shit I'm not watching proleague if this is true.
On April 20 2012 23:50 Aunvilgod wrote: Could maybe someone explain to me WHY BW is more interesting/challenging than SCII. As far as I know the differences are not that big. Just because the players are not very good the game is not necessarily bad.
Note that I think the rumor about lower skillcap of SCII is crap. Players still die to bad multitasking...
lol, go try play macro games in D rank (which is the initial rank)
also lol at the sc2 players that talk about bw without knowing anything, you think skillcap is sc2 is crap? you probably have never played bw
also i agree with the white_horse post, this post is an example of that
What does playing BW have to do with the skill cap in a different game? No one will truly know for a years.
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much. the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
Holy crap.
I used to joke that Action should switch to SC2 to become a Zerg bonjwa, but are my jokes becoming reality? I should joke less. But I do love Action, but his play in BW was a tad... inconsistent.
And LOL at a Zerg Fantasy. He went from being bad with bio in BW to playing the all-bio race in SC2.
On April 21 2012 00:34 Thauleris wrote: The other thing that amuses me about the SC scene is that they mock SC2 for being simple. Go look at SC when it was a year or two years after release. Tell me the meta was more evolved then for the SC2 scene is now. It's not because the game is bad, it's because it hasn't had a decade and a half to become the game SC is now. If you don't like SC2 then help change it instead of sitting around pining for days gone by.
you're recycling the same argument that's been periodically made and discredited for like two years now. bw's proscene singlehandedly brought the RTS genre to theoretical maturity over its "decade and a half." sc2's metagame and theory had every single one of those years to build off of from the moment it was released, and two years since then to extend it further. tell me, honestly, that sc2's lived up to where it should be given all its advantages.
also, the sc2 design team has no good excuse to not learn from all the years of the bw proscene either. unfortunately, browder and all the rest are obsessed with toppling bw, and are too proud to take away anything good from the bw scene ("if you like bw go play bw" etc), such as defender's advantage, map control, etc. HOTS is a half-hearted, grudging step in the right direction, but even those are transparent knockoffs of good bw units.
So sc2 has all of BW to build on, yet they are completely different games and BW is 100% superior. Hm.
On April 20 2012 23:50 Aunvilgod wrote: Could maybe someone explain to me WHY BW is more interesting/challenging than SCII. As far as I know the differences are not that big. Just because the players are not very good the game is not necessarily bad.
Note that I think the rumor about lower skillcap of SCII is crap. Players still die to bad multitasking...
I think it's mostly people that have some sort of bitterness toward sc2, a lack of experience with sc2, or are just uninformed. The games are different, so yeah, not everyone is going to like both, but they require very similar skill sets and are a lot more similar than angry elitists make them out to be.
Nope, BW is just better to watch, as both more interesting to watch then chess or poker. There is a reason why BW have casual fans (who don't play videogames), and sc2 fans are all playing or have played sc2.
For me is: - graphical style is better (mature, no stupid toyish buildings) - units not clumping in one ball (that just look better) - better balance, and not only race balance, but also balance of opportunities and abilities (no stupid crap like "1 vortex with archons and zerg is dead, but without it protoss is dead") - as a result of previous one - game have more diversity and more dynamic. - level of play. No one in sc2 can multitask nearly as good as Bisu. - no tournaments overloading. 1 OSL, 1 MSL, 1 Proleague. Every game counts. - and the History, that lead to Stories and Drama, and sometimes Comedy. Just compare your usual preview\recap from gstl and preview\recap from proleague.
All of this (besides graphical differences, which are completely preference based) is not inherent to sc2, but rather to any young game.
And every thing there except the 2 first things will evolve as the game evolves. Do you think that the SC scene just popped up and was just as it is today? no it evolved and changed in to what it is today.
- the mothership will be gone i HOTS, so that will change, so vortex is gone - more expansions will come out that will evolve the game and give it more diversity and more dynamic, also time will do this with new and different tactics - Level of play will come, Just watch how much SC2 has evolved the last 2 years - you are complaining that there is a GLOBAL Starcraft scene not just a Korean one. if you only want 3 tournaments inn the world that is nearly impossible to get inn to if you are not Korean fine with me, but i want the biggest tournaments to be international, where if you are a foreigner or Korean it don't matter(Ya know foreigners didn't get in to BW pro teams was because they weren't good enough, but sc2 foreigners and Korean players are a lot more even) - the history is well history it takes time to be made.
And the thing with casuals are just wrong there is a bunch of people that just watch and don't play.
Well Broodwar simply did not have enough sponsors anymore, living in denial is no use. There was MBC shutting down lesser teams dieing, T8 never finding a sponsor ( no sponsor for JD you gotta be kidding me) and the current OSL, did it finaly get around with it's sponsorship ? Or is it still a mess.
I wish both could just excist next to another, because i enjoy watching both. I never really got why i needed to chose between the two. And that drama wich one is better and what not or all that elitism please it's childsplay.
Simple fact is Sc2 is new, so was Starcraft1 at some point and it was not great at the start either Broodwar was never proper balanced, it needs map makers to balance it. We how ever take all the crappy AI and balance problems for granted because of the insane high level of play that has arizen over the years. And because of that you can never compare 12 years of Broodwar to a new RTS game.
Will sc2 ever be as good as current broodwar ? We can only find out in a couple of years, for now i would agree it's not even close but unlike 99% of other RTS games it actualy has potential.
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much. the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
Holy crap.
I used to joke that Action should switch to SC2 to become a Zerg bonjwa, but are my jokes becoming reality? I should joke less. But I do love Action, but his play in BW was a tad... inconsistent.
And LOL at a Zerg Fantasy. He went from being bad with bio in BW to playing the all-bio race in SC2.
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
O_0 Sweet Mother of God. Action the best in KT, Fantasy zerg, Horang2 90% on GM
On April 21 2012 00:34 Thauleris wrote: The other thing that amuses me about the SC scene is that they mock SC2 for being simple. Go look at SC when it was a year or two years after release. Tell me the meta was more evolved then for the SC2 scene is now. It's not because the game is bad, it's because it hasn't had a decade and a half to become the game SC is now. If you don't like SC2 then help change it instead of sitting around pining for days gone by.
you're recycling the same argument that's been periodically made and discredited for like two years now. bw's proscene singlehandedly brought the RTS genre to theoretical maturity over its "decade and a half." sc2's metagame and theory had every single one of those years to build off of from the moment it was released, and two years since then to extend it further. tell me, honestly, that sc2's lived up to where it should be given all its advantages.
also, the sc2 design team has no good excuse to not learn from all the years of the bw proscene either. unfortunately, browder and all the rest are obsessed with toppling bw, and are too proud to take away anything good from the bw scene ("if you like bw go play bw" etc), such as defender's advantage, map control, etc. HOTS is a half-hearted, grudging step in the right direction, but even those are transparent knockoffs of good bw units.
So sc2 has all of BW to build on, yet they are completely different games and BW is 100% superior. Hm.
Those are all internally consistent opinions.
Though I do like how Jellyfish simultaneously hates SC for not copying BW, and also hates it when it is copying BW.
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: some key points:
ace really isn't focusing on sc2 that much. the best player with sc2 on KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
On April 21 2012 00:34 Thauleris wrote: The other thing that amuses me about the SC scene is that they mock SC2 for being simple. Go look at SC when it was a year or two years after release. Tell me the meta was more evolved then for the SC2 scene is now. It's not because the game is bad, it's because it hasn't had a decade and a half to become the game SC is now. If you don't like SC2 then help change it instead of sitting around pining for days gone by.
you're recycling the same argument that's been periodically made and discredited for like two years now. bw's proscene singlehandedly brought the RTS genre to theoretical maturity over its "decade and a half." sc2's metagame and theory had every single one of those years to build off of from the moment it was released, and two years since then to extend it further. tell me, honestly, that sc2's lived up to where it should be given all its advantages.
also, the sc2 design team has no good excuse to not learn from all the years of the bw proscene either. unfortunately, browder and all the rest are obsessed with toppling bw, and are too proud to take away anything good from the bw scene ("if you like bw go play bw" etc), such as defender's advantage, map control, etc. HOTS is a half-hearted, grudging step in the right direction, but even those are transparent knockoffs of good bw units.
So sc2 has all of BW to build on, yet they are completely different games and BW is 100% superior. Hm.
Those are all internally consistent opinions.
Though I do like how Jellyfish simultaneously hates SC for not copying BW, and also hates it when it is copying BW.
Also, what the fuck, Fantasy O_O
Yeah, that was my point, I just chose to do it snidely.
Wow. I'm at a loss, this seems a saddening confirmation of the rumours.
I don't hate SC2, I play it, I can even say I like playing it, it's how I came to TL, but watching is has become increasingly "meh" and discussions are filled with complaints about balance. I get it, it's still growing, it's still evolving, there are still 2 more expansions, and these pro teams will inject new strategies and ideas to the game and do some previously un-thought-of things with marines, marauders, zealots, stalkers and whatnot.
But it won't be as exciting as what BW has been, in this past year that I've been following it closely and before then through VODs and TL.net's friendly posters' history lessons. Still, whatever game TBLS will be playing, I'll probably be watching, but I can't help feel a little sad and nostalgic.
On April 21 2012 00:52 Cejotas wrote: Maybe now blizzard reacts and improves the game...
jk
Apparently it's KeSPA's responsibility, which is an interesting discussion I wish we were having instead of SC2 vs BW.
And while....nothing....will make BW fans like SC2, HotS is at least a small step in the right direction. The Oracle, in particular, is one of the best units in either game.
On April 21 2012 00:44 1sz2sz3sz wrote: KT so far is apparently action the best player with SC2 on SKT1 so far is Fantasy who switched to zerg the coaches agreed from the players they've seen play SC2 so far, that the best is Horang2 from CJ and said he has had 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before
O_0 Sweet Mother of God. Action the best in KT, Fantasy zerg, Horang2 90% on GM
A bit late for April Fools, eh?
Although I'm not surprised about Horang2: The Greatest of Heroes. He did beat Flash in a pretty nice macro game during the last Proleague playoffs.
EPT
