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On December 14 2009 12:23 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 10:17 SarenS wrote:
hi,
was stupid decision and I regret it, to explain it I just must say that I didnt had the time to finish the ladder since I came away in weekend and decided to play TuZeR with his smurf. I just regret it was mostly due to a lack of time since I was losing 3 days of the ladder, I tryed and I failed.It's deserved. I dont search escuses or anything just want to apologize to every players and the organizers of this tour.
Have fun to everyone and good luck to the players. What a pathetic excuse, as if having more time also means that you would've made it for sure, such arrogance. Here's an idea, if you're actually sorry maybe you should leave out the bullshit. Yeah we're all real sorry for you that you were too busy taking a fucking vacation to make the ladder lol.
he didn't say it was an excuse. he's explaining why he cheated.
honestly, it's not like these abusers were scum of the earth just waiting to flex their evil muscles. i'd imagine most of their stories will be similar to Sarens - something put them at some sort of inconvenience or disadvantage, making the temptation to cheat hard to resist.
Cheating in something like this is not something i could do - i find their explanations interesting and enlightening.
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F91 didn't get caught, he admitted when asked about it. F91 is truly the only one who has a legit complaints of being dodged as all of TSL avoided him because of lag and maybe skill as well. A deadly combo that no one is to blame for.
It made it a very hard ladder for him, harder than for the others, but F91 and Ash were well aware and informed about this in advance of the ladder. We all knew this was going to be the case for him before he joined so there was nothing new there. When offered half-way to use a smurf he declined because it wasn't needed. They said it would be no problem getting top 12 playing vs Koreans and it seemed like that was going to hold true till F91 stopped playing.
Near the end they requested to smurf but with so little time left we denied the request because this close to the deadline we felt it wouldn't be fair to opponents not to be aware of who they were facing, as losing 1 or 2 games could make a huge difference on the final 2 days.
None of this should ever be an excuse to abuse. The only people who really get dodged are the ones good enough to beat all the Koreans (F91, Ret, Idra, White-ra). Not TSL-Reason don't make me laugh. Being good enough to be dodged means you are good enough to make it regardless, unless you refuse to put sufficient time in.
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hahahahaha
edit: also, i was looking through the match lists of the top qualifiers. I find it absolutely hilarious how few games are played against koreans. it's so, so obvious that everyone was dodging and being pussies once they got high ranks.
there are obvious exceptions, like White-ra, who has literally 15 or 20 times the amount of games vs koreans compared to the mediocre players that dodged. What a hero.
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United States42636 Posts
On December 14 2009 13:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
F91 didn't get caught, he admitted when asked about it. F91 is truly the only one who has a legit complaints of being dodged as all of TSL avoided him because of lag and maybe skill as well. A deadly combo that no one is to blame for.
It made it a very hard ladder for him, harder than for the others, but F91 and Ash were well aware and informed about this in advance of the ladder. We all knew this was going to be the case for him before he joined so there was nothing new there. When offered half-way to use a smurf he declined because it wasn't needed. They said it would be no problem getting top 12 playing vs Koreans and it seemed like that was going to hold true till F91 stopped playing.
Near the end they requested to smurf but with so little time left we denied the request because this close to the deadline we felt it wouldn't be fair to opponents not to be aware of who they were facing, as losing 1 or 2 games could make a huge difference on the final 2 days.
None of this should ever be an excuse to abuse. The only people who really get dodged are the ones good enough to beat all the Koreans (F91, Ret, Idra, White-ra). Not TSL-Reason don't make me laugh. Being good enough to be dodged means you are good enough to make it regardless, unless you refuse to put sufficient time in.
On December 12 2009 06:33 ret wrote:
Admins should check out the games between Ipromiseu and F91.
On December 12 2009 07:02 Ash wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2009 06:39 ret wrote:
I'm not kidding. I saw estro players play iccup against IpromiseU all the time. And saw reps of him. He is Chinese and protoss 100% ( said so in multiple games) and f91 just got 3 really short games vs his terran, so it can't really be any more obvious. Highly amusing. :D I'm not sure if hes chinese but I've just asked F91 personally if he knows that guy and f91 denied. I'll get replays from him later but I don't think hes stupid enough to cheat on two 3 mins games.
F91 was caught by ret, lied about it, realised there was no way his lie was gonna hold up and then admitted it. That's not quite the same as admitting it in my book. That's more like damage limitation after lying fails.
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Getting 'caught' is a lot more than being suspected of something. There's clearly a difference between admitting it before proof and waiting it out to see if you can fool the admins. From our side as admins, I can tell you we definitely appreciate it and would encourage others to do the same. But unfortunately that's a pipedream since most of them would rather run with it till the end.
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United States42636 Posts
He got a Protoss player to offrace as Terran without transferring the stats to a new account (like all the other abusers did) so it was 100% clear that the guy who had always been Protoss was offracing vs F91. I'd say he could be pretty sure he wasn't fooling admins.
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You understand how incredibly thin that argument is I assume.
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United States42636 Posts
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me.
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in playing the ladder, lots of people cheat. expect around 50-60%. most don't get caught. people shouldn't act like these are breaking news.
just relax and wait for the final ranking, jeez.
what's all the fuss.
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On December 14 2009 14:22 Crt wrote:
in playing the ladder, lots of people cheat. expect around 50-60%. most don't get caught. people shouldn't act like these are breaking news.
just relax and wait for the final ranking, jeez.
what's all the fuss. That's just... not even true at all.
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On December 14 2009 02:12 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded. Show nested quote +No smurfing. For most players aiming to qualify for the TSL, there will be no doubt as to which ID to use. If you are unsure, use your most recognizable ID or your forum username. If you believe that your chances of qualifying will be severely hampered by using your real I.D. you may contact a TSL staff member to apply for an exemption. A...huh. Alright.
lol XD owned. I knew I read that rule somewhere. There are absolutely no excuses for cheating.
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On December 14 2009 13:49 KwarK wrote:
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me.
First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either.
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On December 13 2009 20:57 Guybrush wrote:What. 11 DQs so far, and still counting! This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable! Sarens  Dimaga So many respected players being dirty.
"This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable! " WSOP Norman Chad quote?
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On December 14 2009 14:49 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 20:57 Guybrush wrote:What. 11 DQs so far, and still counting! This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable! Sarens Dimaga So many respected players being dirty. "This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable! " WSOP Norman Chad quote?
First thing I thought of too, hehe.
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This is sad, and casts serious doubt on the viability of using a ladder to seed tournaments. The whole decision-making process for players is completely broken when 25% of the "qualified" list are going to be DQ'd
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I for one will miss Reason. His double Barracks SCV rush against  sAviOr in his prime was an epic watch
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On December 14 2009 07:58 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 07:51 gk_ender wrote:
simpleset answer of them all, too all the cheaters who were being "ladder dodged"
Idra made first without cheating, and he made it playing koreans
Long story short, for ppl who were being "ladder dodged", you had solutions not involving cheating, contacting tl would b the best, but also, you could have simply played koreans who have no idea who you are. You don't really expect them to compare themselves with IdrA, do you? They surely aren't do that either, they are comparing themselves to weaker players who made it into the top48 by dodging. Idra, White-Ra and ret are players of another caliber, active players with time for the game, who are leading the foreign scene. They are not complaining about having to face tougher competition that the rest of the ladder because they can deal with it. And if they were complaining, IdrA and ret were allowed to play as the only people from Korea, so this exception already means that they are getting special treatment. I'm not saying they are justified in what they did, just that it's a bad comparison and argument.
Your clearly missing the argument im making, bc your making it for me. Those three are players of a different caliber, which is why the deserve theyre spot, but you dont come to play oh im kinda good, you play to win or go home. In the osl and msl, players have to meet the best s class gas to offer in the preliminary rounds. They dont cheat and abuse, though tehy may cheese, they do the best they can. Point being, if you dont have teh skills to put up or shut up then dont play, and especially dont cheat. My whole argument was a kind of joke because the best players you mentioned, are really the famous ones, and they played were they were not famous. But if you really wanna get into it, mondragon is arguably one of the most famous sc players outside of korea, and he made it just fine.
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On December 14 2009 14:44 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 13:49 KwarK wrote:
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me. First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either.
You need to stfu, he didn't do anything wrong according to the rules. Stop bashing people that did not cheat...
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On December 14 2009 15:19 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 14:44 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:On December 14 2009 13:49 KwarK wrote:
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me. First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either. You need to stfu, he didn't do anything wrong according to the rules. Stop bashing people that did not cheat...
The rules failed, that's why. KwarK did a ton wrong. He played his own clan mates multiple times, only played people he knew he could beat, until he was caught. Then he started playing other people 2-3 ranks lower them himself. That's not a legit way to work up a ladder, I'm sorry.
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