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TL.net129 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Kennigit/PSTSL/PS_TSL_Banner.png) Dimaga, Reason, Sarens, and Vasilisk Disqualified
TSL-DIMAGA, TSL-Reason, TSL-Sarens, and TSL-Vasilisk are disqualified from TSL competition for ladder abuse.
TSL-DIMAGA
Park[fou] transferred to lopl. After the transfer, lopl played two games (0-2) against TSL-DIMAGA. Games played on Park[fou] match the IP address for TSL-DIMAGA. Thus, the rank and stats on lopl were achieved by TSL-DIMAGA.
TSL-Reason
TSL-Reason played three games (3-0) against Hiroshima. Games played on Hiroshima match the IP address for TSL-Reason. Thus, the rank and stats on Hiroshima were achieved by TSL-Reason.
TSL-Vasilisk
lingoslonik transferred to RussiaSupeRrr. After the transfer, RussiaSupeRrr played three games (0-3) against TSL-Vasilisk. Games played from lingoslonik match the IP address for TSL-Vasilisk. Thus, the rank and stats on RussiaSupeRrr were achieved by TSL-Vasilisk. Also, TSL-Vasilisk used lingoslonik to play many games against TSL players without risking his TSL-Vasilisk account.
TSL-Sarens
Tank18 transferred to complexity-. Immediately after the transfer, TSL-Sarens played three games (3-0) against complexity-. Games played from complexity- and Tank18 match the IP address from TSL-Sarens. Thus, the rank and stats of complexity- were achieved by TSL-Sarens.
Click for Earlier Disqualifications
Please keep in mind that the Top 48 Rankings have still not been finalized. We are still reviewing match lists for abuse and point adjustments.
--TSL Staff
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Dimaga what did you do? 
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This is really getting sad...
so many great players resorting to abuse...
great work catching em
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Wow, so many disqualifications, DRAMAAA
edit: maybe Leg could still qualify :D
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A2 Pomi and now Dimaga... whos next Strelok?
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What.
11 DQs so far, and still counting! This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable!
Sarens
Dimaga
So many respected players being dirty.
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Good stuff admins, keep racking 'em up!
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aers
United States1210 Posts
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ok, now i don't belive in this anymore... give me a break, this kind of players woulnd't risk everything coz 2 OR 3 games!!! i don't belive it
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WTF. This is madness. Dimaga, Yosh, a2, whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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I know I guessed 5+, but damn. At this rate it'll be easily double that; if not triple.
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Wow thank god for that 3-0 rule if that wasnt there would be like x3 more abusers on the ladder
Btw Dimaga Sarens Reason = retarded Idiots like A2 and Yosh
Vasilisk was known hacker so not so surprizing imo
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That would mean Lz is back in? YES!
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They all used the same cheap way of abusing, thinking they wouldn't be caught. Disappointing.
I'm starting to think that collecting personal information on the top60 players won't be enough.
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lol if this continue I just might have gotten in if had just quit at 9,3k.
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GJ admins! keep it clean!
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I dont get it, you just show one singe evidence out of the others you found on the same player or you only have one single abuse evidence per player or just stop digging as soon as you find one ?
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand.
Anyway nice work
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Amazing, simply amazing...
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On December 13 2009 21:01 Boonbag wrote:
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand.
Cheating is cheating. One game, two games, ten games, makes no difference whatsoever.
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Dima
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WHAT? Ok now I am officially shocked!
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makes no sense.. reason would cheat? yeah, right... he was A- after 90 games he played and those three made no difference... really makes no sense and i can't wait to hear what those players have to say.. if they really cheated on this way they are very stupid
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i dont get it... why ppl risk so much just for like 390 points ><
especially ppl that can get to top48 for sure.
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On December 13 2009 20:59 Oystein wrote:
lol if this continue I just might have gotten in if had just quit at 9,3k.
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.........soon we gonna have half the bloody original top 48 on this list :3
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On December 13 2009 20:59 John49ers wrote:
That would mean Lz is back in? YES!
you sure im pretty sure hes to low lol
edit: but if people keep dropping like this...
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I expected no ukrainians will be involved in that, but...
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I love how these kids don't know how to use proxies lol!!! or even spending a week prior to this ladder at a internet cafe getting a high account then getting their friend to play them from their house or the internet cafe
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this is like professional cycling!
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so much for having a Brazilian in TSL... when will the horror end?!?!?!?!?!?!
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I really don't get why the fuck players of Dimaga's calibre would do this. It's beyond me...
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.....
are you fucking kidding me? fuck you DIMAGA
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That doesn't make any sense for me. Why were they cheating? 2 or 3 games mostly?
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On December 13 2009 21:02 RHoudini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:01 Boonbag wrote:
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand. Cheating is cheating. One game, two games, ten games, makes no difference whatsoever.
i think he means it makes no sense to cheat to go only go up like 200 pts or something.
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Dimaga???? Oh man... this is getting scary. Its starting to remind me of when sports starting implementing random steroids testing.
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On December 13 2009 20:59 Oystein wrote:
lol if this continue I just might have gotten in if had just quit at 9,3k.
Its already at that level. G5 got in after the last round of DQ, 4 more + Scan = Shad[Pan] at 9290 is the lowest currently qualifying. Another round of four DQs and both Mamon and LzGamer are in.
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ban 2 more!!! I want a 2nd Bulgarian in top 48!!!
TSL-Vasilisk had at least 1 more abuse
edit: TSL-Naugrim is in if he isn't dq that is 
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LOL if F91 didn't abuse he'd be in top 12
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On December 13 2009 21:11 baller wrote:
LOL if F91 didn't abuse he'd be in top 12
Hah... isn't that a cold slap in the groin. He didn't even need to.
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Theoretically speaking, is it possible that some of the DQed guys had no idea about the transfers and it were just coincidences?
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Iraq1230 Posts
its so lol. its so easy to spot this kind of abuse. 2 days ago i told ret that i thought reason and hiroshima were the same person and he thought that too and now we got the proof.
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It´s the rise in skill levels and big pricepool...
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there's gonna be no terrans left in the end
Where will i get my shiny rep packs from, im looking forward to that part of TSL the most.
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Iraq1230 Posts
On December 13 2009 21:12 myzael wrote:
Theoretically speaking, is it possible that some of the DQed guys had no idea about the transfers and it were just coincidences?
did u miss the part where they said its the same ip?
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On December 13 2009 21:12 myzael wrote:
Theoretically speaking, is it possible that some of the DQed guys had no idea about the transfers and it were just coincidences?
No.
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The thing I don't get is why everyone is abusing so blatantly obvious. Playing games from the same IP, playing two or more games in a row and only playing super short games is asking for it if you ask me.
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On December 13 2009 21:12 myzael wrote:
Theoretically speaking, is it possible that some of the DQed guys had no idea about the transfers and it were just coincidences?
Since there IP was used NO
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On December 13 2009 21:12 myzael wrote:
Theoretically speaking, is it possible that some of the DQed guys had no idea about the transfers and it were just coincidences?
No, because as the posts said, the transfers were done by the players themselves, since the IP addresses of the smurfs matched the players. Unless some other A-/A player played on their computer... then decided to randomly transfer stats.. and then the offending player just so happened to 3-0 the dude.
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This makes mamon qualify? Confirm?
Edith tells me that: A2 f91 and pomi were already removed, so mamon needs another 3 DQ's to qualif 
This is almost more exciting than the ladder it self :D
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On December 13 2009 21:12 myzael wrote:
Theoretically speaking, is it possible that some of the DQed guys had no idea about the transfers and it were just coincidences?
They could have played from a PC club or something with computers having the same IP adresses ?
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holy fuck balls
dimaga??????????+
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On December 13 2009 21:14 haypro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:12 myzael wrote:
Theoretically speaking, is it possible that some of the DQed guys had no idea about the transfers and it were just coincidences? did u miss the part where they said its the same ip?
Oh, I did. Misunderstood or misread to be specific. Sorry for that.
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On December 13 2009 21:09 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:02 RHoudini wrote:On December 13 2009 21:01 Boonbag wrote:
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand. Cheating is cheating. One game, two games, ten games, makes no difference whatsoever. i think he means it makes no sense to cheat to go only go up like 200 pts or something.
Yeah, what newbies, right? Why not abuse to get 1000pts instead of 200? That will fly under the radar.
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so in numbers about 23% of top48 players cheated, kinda sad.
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Money does funny things to people. :-/ I guess there are a several reasons (about 10,000) that would make these guys feel like they need to abuse. I'm still very impressed with the professionalism of the TL staff, it's gotta be hard to ban well respected and good players, but you can't risk the integrity of the event. It IS a lot like random drug testing and the only effective measure is insta-ban.
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roflmao T_T that's terrible..
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On December 13 2009 21:09 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:02 RHoudini wrote:On December 13 2009 21:01 Boonbag wrote:
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand. Cheating is cheating. One game, two games, ten games, makes no difference whatsoever. i think he means it makes no sense to cheat to go only go up like 200 pts or something.
200 points is the difference between place 5 and place 14.
200 points is the difference between place 24 and place 38.
Two or three free wins without taking any risk do make quite a difference.
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On December 13 2009 21:20 RHoudini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:09 yarkO wrote:On December 13 2009 21:02 RHoudini wrote:On December 13 2009 21:01 Boonbag wrote:
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand. Cheating is cheating. One game, two games, ten games, makes no difference whatsoever. i think he means it makes no sense to cheat to go only go up like 200 pts or something. 200 points is the difference between place 5 and place 14. 200 points is the difference between place 24 and place 38. Two or three free wins without taking any risk do make quite a difference.
Without taking any risk? It got them disqualified.
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WTF is going on ? Players in top 12 snacking 2 wins and geting disqualified ...
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What saddens me the most is the fact that only the most stupid or technically least educated get caught.
I think the only way to catch all abusers would be to have an automatic system scanning all reps for similar keystroke patterns to identify smurfs.
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Holy shit, there seems to be no end to this.
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WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT.
shiiiit.
sarens, dimaga
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A2, Pomi, Dimaga, Vasilisk, how stupid T_T...
Fuck our post soviet mentality - cheating is like the part of our life in our countries...
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How about it Kwark, you would have made it after all.
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On December 13 2009 21:11 baller wrote:
LOL if F91 didn't abuse he'd be in top 12
thats just... wow. how the hell must that feel. you jeopardized your respect as a gamer and in the end, it was the very act that ruined you shot at the TSL.
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On December 13 2009 21:26 Torlak wrote:
How about it Kwark, you would have made it after all.
lol
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Was already posted in blogs man.
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so.. 11 players actually abused using their very own IP address...
This leaves me guessing how many actually abused with friends or clanmates, which is harder if not impossible to track.
maybe half of the top48 tried to cheat their way in... really sad what money does to people.
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I expect some akward silence in team 10 (CPL) after this.
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So many people thought there would be no supervision over the ladder... They couldve played more games to qualify but little cheat seemed the easier way, nobodys gonna notice anyway right? When most of the disqualified players are good enough to get in without this crap they clearly just didnt realize theres any risk in doing that.
People can be so stupid...
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FUCKED UP :D SHiT HAPPEND xD
sorry guys about that, its really stupid think i do ^_^ Good Luck to all players TSL !
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thats why the rules should be no other players than TSL players and no dodging.
this is especially gay because its just afterf the ladder is over. bad for players paniking and losing because some players abused.
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
On December 13 2009 21:30 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
so.. 11 players actually abused using their very own IP address...
11 TOP foreigners
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On December 13 2009 21:20 RHoudini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:09 yarkO wrote:On December 13 2009 21:02 RHoudini wrote:On December 13 2009 21:01 Boonbag wrote:
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand. Cheating is cheating. One game, two games, ten games, makes no difference whatsoever. i think he means it makes no sense to cheat to go only go up like 200 pts or something. 200 points is the difference between place 5 and place 14. 200 points is the difference between place 24 and place 38. Two or three free wins without taking any risk do make quite a difference.
Yeah I thought so, but I wasn't sure... rofl then it seems the mutiple tiers qualification rules were actually some sort of trap to lure those out !
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On December 13 2009 21:30 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
so.. 11 players actually abused using their very own IP address...
This leaves me guessing how many actually abused with friends or clanmates, which is harder if not impossible to track.
maybe half of the top48 tried to cheat their way in... really sad what money does to people.
I'm sure we will see another wave being banned for doing that, it's not much harder to match an ip to a clanmate, just takes more time.
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On December 13 2009 21:36 Bifur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:30 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
so.. 11 players actually abused using their very own IP address...
11 TOP foreigners
not true at all, but ye some of them are top foreigners
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Still no reactions from any of the cheaters. I guess they really are all guilty..
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I so wish it would be possible to be that efficient at dqing in the actual sports competitions
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goddamit dimaga why so stupid?
*Sigh*
Just for 2 games they fuck themselves over like this
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On December 13 2009 21:36 NgS.DIMAGA wrote:
FUCKED UP :D SHiT HAPPEND xD
sorry guys about that, its really stupid think i do ^_^ Good Luck to all players TSL !
Everyone knows you as a good guy, but your reputation will be so damaged after this, it was really not worth it...
Oh well, good luck in the future.
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
On December 13 2009 21:40 white wrote:
Still no reactions from any of the cheaters. I guess they really are all guilty..
Dimaga has already reacted:
On December 13 2009 21:36 NgS.DIMAGA wrote:
FUCKED UP :D SHiT HAPPEND xD
sorry guys about that, its really stupid think i do ^_^ Good Luck to all players TSL !
F91 also reacted.
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United States12607 Posts
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This is absultely ridiculous. I cant believe this is happening. People risking being dq for 2-3 wins.
A little drama is good, but this is too much. I now kinda wish, that tl.net announced before the start of the ladder that they had a method of catching this type of abuse. So so many great players will not play now T_T
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omgomgomgomgomg
so fucking sad!
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too many cheaters usually im glad that they catch the assholes but i never expected there to be this many >_<
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what i still don't get is why, if it's only a matter of 200 points, not wait and bash a few selected newbies and grind these 200 points with 4 games instead..
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
On December 13 2009 21:43 mdb wrote:
This is absultely ridiculous. I cant believe this is happening. People risking being dq for 2-3 wins.
A little drama is good, but this is too much. I now kinda wish, that tl.net announced before the start of the ladder that they had a method of catching this type of abuse. So so many great players will not play now T_T
On December 13 2009 21:20 RHoudini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:09 yarkO wrote:On December 13 2009 21:02 RHoudini wrote:On December 13 2009 21:01 Boonbag wrote:
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand. Cheating is cheating. One game, two games, ten games, makes no difference whatsoever. i think he means it makes no sense to cheat to go only go up like 200 pts or something. 200 points is the difference between place 5 and place 14. 200 points is the difference between place 24 and place 38. Two or three free wins without taking any risk do make quite a difference.
Maybe the right thing would be just take these points away and not to ban them?
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On December 13 2009 21:43 Bifur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:40 white wrote:
Still no reactions from any of the cheaters. I guess they really are all guilty.. Dimaga has already reacted: Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:36 NgS.DIMAGA wrote:
FUCKED UP :D SHiT HAPPEND xD
sorry guys about that, its really stupid think i do ^_^ Good Luck to all players TSL ! F91 also reacted.
Well, F91 confessed. Missed Dimagas quote.
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Sarens .
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would be fun to put all the DQed in one cheater pool and make them duke it out - lol @ stigmate
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On December 13 2009 21:45 Bifur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:43 mdb wrote:
This is absultely ridiculous. I cant believe this is happening. People risking being dq for 2-3 wins.
A little drama is good, but this is too much. I now kinda wish, that tl.net announced before the start of the ladder that they had a method of catching this type of abuse. So so many great players will not play now T_T Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:20 RHoudini wrote:On December 13 2009 21:09 yarkO wrote:On December 13 2009 21:02 RHoudini wrote:On December 13 2009 21:01 Boonbag wrote:
I mean that abusing that little number of wins is complete non sense unless I'm failing to understand. Cheating is cheating. One game, two games, ten games, makes no difference whatsoever. i think he means it makes no sense to cheat to go only go up like 200 pts or something. 200 points is the difference between place 5 and place 14. 200 points is the difference between place 24 and place 38. Two or three free wins without taking any risk do make quite a difference. Maybe the right thing would be just take these points away and not to ban them?
Yeah we really want people to do this without risking anything. Remember, this is just the people who were stupid enough to use the same IP twice.
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On December 13 2009 21:45 Bifur wrote:
Maybe the right thing would be just take these points away and not to ban them?
Tell that to Kwark or others who by all rights could have made it into the tournament had they not felt they needed to play even more games to catch up to some people with imaginary points. A couple hundred points effects too many players around them in the ladder to justify allowing them to stay; even in the cases of those who would have easily made top 48 such as Dimaga and Yosh.
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Come on, more DQs please!
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Too greedy, sad people. An updated ladder with all DQ would be nice, slowly i'm losing overview of the current standings.
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Damn it im so much disapointed by top players abusing 2-3 wins because they are lazy to play like 10-20 games more. No doubt in my mind A2 Yosh Dimaga Reason and Sarens are just great players but so lazy ....be ashamed of yourselfs and see guys who have like 300-500 (or more! )games like Morrow Kr Octzerg Sen White-ra and lot of other gamers and you dont even wanna play 100-150 games out of LAZYNESS.
Now thinnk if its worth the risk to miss up on 10k $ for 200-300 points. I can understand ppl like scan mercury ribo and vasilisk who are not that good to get into 48 and got NOTHING to lose but you guys have no excuse.
Im disapoint... TSL will lose on quality games but you guys deserve even bigger punishment for future TSL or similar events.
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Should i be worried that ICCup has a database full of logged IP addresses for over a month? :\
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On December 13 2009 21:52 Doso wrote:
Should i be worried that ICCup has a database full of logged IP addresses for over a month? :\
Why would that worry you
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It's unfortunate that so many players have resorted to abuse, especially when many of them were genuine contenders to win the whole tourney. I hope they've learned their lesson.
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On December 13 2009 21:52 Doso wrote:
Should i be worried that ICCup has a database full of logged IP addresses for over a month? :\
Definately not...
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On December 13 2009 21:44 Boonbag wrote:
what i still don't get is why, if it's only a matter of 200 points, not wait and bash a few selected newbies and grind these 200 points with 4 games instead..
I think its like this:
Players like Dimaga and Yosh reasoned it was clever to sample playstyles perhabs even test reactions to certain builds. Especially on their high level this is a way to get an adavantage over their opponents. After endless hours of grinding with the smurfs they get tired and think. Damn i beat so many top people and get 0 points doing so. Perhabs their place in q3 qualifier is even at risk and they think. i earned that fucking points, i did not even dodge, i can have at least a small piece of the cake. they transfer stats to a friend and get 2 free wins.
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I wonder is this is the final list of abusers looks like they check up all players on top 48 and post 4 players at the time i seriosly dont wanna see other top players that resorted to abuse.
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Keep up the awesome detection work
Sad that so many douches cheat for just 2 games...
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so dimaga get DQ for 2x 97points ...
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Stupid goddamn abusers, can't play straight to qualify, jeez.
Vasilisk should be banned for hacking before TSL even started, that douche never changes :\
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On December 13 2009 22:07 Art_of_Kill wrote:
so dimaga get DQ for 2x 97points ...
yes?
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On December 13 2009 21:30 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
so.. 11 players actually abused using their very own IP address...
This leaves me guessing how many actually abused with friends or clanmates, which is harder if not impossible to track.
maybe half of the top48 tried to cheat their way in... really sad what money does to people.
This is valid, I think. The players DQed so far made it obvious, what about others who didn't? It's very hard to differentiate late 'series' wins that might have been done maliciously from ones that were, as people put it before, just players trying to get a shot at playing against one of the top foreigners at their best.
And another question: was playing on a non-TSL account for the purposes of judging other players' strategy/style illegal by itself?
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On December 13 2009 22:19 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:30 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
so.. 11 players actually abused using their very own IP address...
This leaves me guessing how many actually abused with friends or clanmates, which is harder if not impossible to track.
maybe half of the top48 tried to cheat their way in... really sad what money does to people. This is valid, I think. The players DQed so far made it obvious, what about others who didn't? It's very hard to differentiate late 'series' wins that might have been done maliciously from ones that were, as people put it before, just players trying to get a shot at playing against one of the top foreigners at their best. And another question: was playing on a non-TSL account for the purposes of judging other players' strategy/style illegal by itself?
yes it was and that was the actual purpose of the TOP dqed people imho.
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omg Dimaga. He was one of my favorite players and always so mannered. wtf why did theese players do this they are so skilled and high ranked anyway :S
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Make a tourney with DQ people
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On December 13 2009 21:49 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:45 Bifur wrote:
Maybe the right thing would be just take these points away and not to ban them? Tell that to Kwark or others who by all rights could have made it into the tournament had they not felt they needed to play even more games to catch up to some people with imaginary points. A couple hundred points effects too many players around them in the ladder to justify allowing them to stay; even in the cases of those who would have easily made top 48 such as Dimaga and Yosh.
This is so true, having a way higher cutoff than in reality forced a lot of people to take chances etc. Not to mention having people like reason coming undercover and steal my points illegally really sucks at least for anyone who is selecting their opponents, not that it mattered in my case since I played anyone who wanted to play, but in the late stages where people are cautious about who they play that has a really big effect.
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I had big doubts about SarenS and his last three games.
Vasilik was obvious.
Shame for Reason and Dimaga.
Seriously i just don't get it. Those players are like lazy and stupid.
edit: i wonder if it was Tuzer or Ninja who played on complexity- o,o
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He even name it "Hirosima" so it feels more "japanese" LOL.
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On December 13 2009 22:19 QibingZero wrote:
And another question: was playing on a non-TSL account for the purposes of judging other players' strategy/style illegal by itself?
Yes. TSL players cannot make another account to play TSL players.
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On December 13 2009 21:36 NgS.DIMAGA wrote:
FUCKED UP :D SHiT HAPPEND xD
sorry guys about that, its really stupid think i do ^_^ Good Luck to all players TSL !
Wtf, that's a really bad apology, I don't see what's funny about it
so depressing, Dimaga was really one of the players I was looking forward to the most
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Holy shit. A lot of good players being disqualified. Especially for those who didn't need it...wtf
Reason wasn't a big surprise to me though.
Is this the full extent of their abuse? or did you guys simple find one case and stop looking since once is clearly enough? Seems so strange that all these players would risk it for 3-400 points. Obviously when it was so close those points do matter but i think if i decided to abuse i'd get greedy
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This is quit baffling, I mean many of them would've gotten in easily without those abuses. I hope there's some explanation for it, because we're missing out on quite a few good players.
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Jesus, so many disqualifications. You'd think that people would take TL's word seriously when they said they would find any cheaters, and not do it. :/
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
On December 13 2009 22:29 Makin wrote:
Make a tourney with DQ people
Yeah, and call the winner "The best foreigner abuser/cheater"
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It looks like the sc-community got it´s own Advogate.
I know it´s too soon even for bad jokes.
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On December 13 2009 22:50 So no fek wrote:
Jesus, so many disqualifications. You'd think that people would take TL's word seriously when they said they would find any cheaters, and not do it. :/
ya..i thought that its just formality and so...but they did it...
great job TL staff...caught em all!
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wow
this is just.. sad. i mean i don't get it, dimaga would have easily made it, why risk a lot of money for 2 games? this is just so retarded t.t
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I vote for conspiration! J/K it's really silly how people cheat/abuse to win this. Either you earn the qualify by playing straight up, or you don't get the amazing $$ prize.
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very sad news, not for the players who were banned, cause they deserved that, but for the legit players that won't make it, cause they lost unecessary games or stopped playing thinking they were out.
As someone said, and the "cheating" might be even larger if we consider clanmates multiple accounts agreement. That's just plain sad.
Not only that, but after the iccup ban list, it's another brick in the face of the integrity of the players community... Like if it was ok for everyone to cheat, even a little, this manner is clearly bad and thos players don't earn any kind of respect. I respect work and skill, not cheat....
GJ TL Staff to sort out those cases and to make thoses DQ'S clear and true.
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The thing I don't get is that some people seem to think its enough to just deduct the points and that the cheaters are legitimately still "good enough to deserve a Ro 48 place". I mean thats the same as saying, yeah I only hacked in a few of the games why don't we deduct those from the total.
Anyways, outstanding job by TSL staff catching the cheaters, I don't even want to imagine the amount of work that must go into this.
(On a side note I think people who reset their stats because they thought they couldn't catch the cheaters should be allowed to un-reset their stats. I can see why not though.)
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Will players get pts back for their losses vs abusers ?
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So happy for mamon, deserves a spot after playing that much
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Despite all the jokes about protoss players being abusive, I suppose the one thing they don't abuse is the ladder lolololol
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On December 13 2009 23:14 Scarecrow wrote:
So happy for mamon, deserves a spot after playing that much
u're right!! gratz mamon!!!!
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Not at all surprised. Don't try to cheat the system. You will always get caught.
Like I said the top 56 will make it. This is only day 1 of the Inquisition.
Players will do anything for money.
SHAME! Black eye on E-Sports! Black eye.
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IP only is not strong enough proof. Many people have dynamic IPs, many people share the same IP addresses.
If the APM and hotkeys of those "2nd accounts" are at least similar to the main ones then it's true they cheated but otherwise it's just a false accusation.
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How pathetic are people?
Have some self-respect.
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On December 13 2009 23:23 PunkSkeleton wrote:
IP only is not strong enough proof. Many people have dynamic IPs, many people share the same IP addresses.
If the APM and hotkeys of those "2nd accounts" are at least similar to the main ones then it's true they cheated but otherwise it's just a false accusation.
I don't want chill to throttle me for making conclusions without knowing anything, but I would have to think that they have thought of this and corroborated evidence. They are working very hard right now.
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On December 13 2009 23:23 PunkSkeleton wrote:
IP only is not strong enough proof. Many people have dynamic IPs, many people share the same IP addresses.
If the APM and hotkeys of those "2nd accounts" are at least similar to the main ones then it's true they cheated but otherwise it's just a false accusation.
two A- accounts with the same IP one of them unkown to everyone, transfering his stats and losing to the other, riiiiiight.
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On December 13 2009 23:23 PunkSkeleton wrote:
IP only is not strong enough proof. Many people have dynamic IPs, many people share the same IP addresses.
If the APM and hotkeys of those "2nd accounts" are at least similar to the main ones then it's true they cheated but otherwise it's just a false accusation.
The fact that after transfering stats to a account that has never been a- or w/e that account plays only against the player whose ip matches?
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On December 13 2009 21:36 NgS.DIMAGA wrote:
FUCKED UP :D SHiT HAPPEND xD
sorry guys about that, its really stupid think i do ^_^ Good Luck to all players TSL !
Is this really DIMAGAs answer or just some troll?
I refuse to believe this is what he has to say in this case!
This guy is not like 14years old afaik - those smileys are just retarded!
The F91 answer did at least show some backbone - even though it might be Ash to honor for that...
I really hope i am not rageing on some troll post...
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On December 13 2009 23:23 PunkSkeleton wrote:
IP only is not strong enough proof. Many people have dynamic IPs, many people share the same IP addresses.
If the APM and hotkeys of those "2nd accounts" are at least similar to the main ones then it's true they cheated but otherwise it's just a false accusation.
besides, teamliquid is never that careless when deal with this. Im sure the admins feel as much or even more pain than us to DQ these good players, its not like they want top players to get kicked out from a tournament that they're hosting. Obivously they have to have solid evidence.
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
On December 13 2009 23:13 Boblion wrote:
Will players get pts back for their losses vs abusers ?
And what about wins vs abusers? Should players lost their pts, it they won abusers?
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On December 13 2009 23:23 PunkSkeleton wrote:
IP only is not strong enough proof. Many people have dynamic IPs, many people share the same IP addresses.
If the APM and hotkeys of those "2nd accounts" are at least similar to the main ones then it's true they cheated but otherwise it's just a false accusation.
You do realize if they didnt cheat theyll go out in the open now and defend themselves by raging like crazy right?
They cheated, they fucked it up. End of Story
Having Dimaga/A2/F91/Yosh wouldve made this tourney a lot better since nobody can deny these 4 are top 30 foreigners, however they fucked it up themselves and have to pay for it, let them wait 2 more years for TSL3, because at this time their chance is over.
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trust me, the staff would never DQ anyone unless they are 100% certain of their guilt
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Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already.
EDIT: Instead of 15 minutes of fame, all they'll get is shame and in some cases won't hear the end of it for quite some time.
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On December 13 2009 02:09 H wrote:as long as we're shit-talking
welp...
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On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already.
Are you insane? A2 could've won this
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On December 13 2009 23:32 Bifur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 23:13 Boblion wrote:
Will players get pts back for their losses vs abusers ? And what about wins vs abusers? Should players lost their pts, it they won abusers?
Neither of you is making much sense now, so far none of the caught abuses was game-level abuse (like hacking), but ladder-level abuses. Disregarding straigh-up matches they played would be pointless, damned complicated, and not even fair. (not unfair towards the cheaters - they gave up their right to fair treatment by abusing, but unfair towards anyone who for example got more straight up wins off them than others.)
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Paranoid ...... 5 more fucking wins and would have been in ........ I don`t get it, why the hell didn`t u freakin play , this is just ridicilous , shame.
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On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this
Let me repeat this for you one more time.
No, he wouldn't of.
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On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of.
Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this.
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so are gonna see their rep packs??????
lol
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this.
Don't argue with him. HE KNOWS FOR SURE who will win the tournament. His knowledge of foreign scene is UNIVERSAL and ALL-EMBRACING.
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On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this.
yes 2nd'd
Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD)
Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ.
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You know what else sucks?
With all the abusers gone, the line will be probably drawn so much lower than 9700+ that it is now. However, some people thought they should be trying more and decided to "gamble" a few more games hoing to get some (unneeded as it seems eventually) extra points.
For example Lz is now sitting 9110 cause he saw that his 9600+ would not be enough. Now even with all the abusers gone he might still not make it. And he's just an example, I'm sure there are more people screwed by this whole thing.
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We should just wait for the players to say they have to say.
Until then, im not saying anything .
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On December 13 2009 23:29 iSCd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 21:36 NgS.DIMAGA wrote:
FUCKED UP :D SHiT HAPPEND xD
sorry guys about that, its really stupid think i do ^_^ Good Luck to all players TSL ! Is this really DIMAGAs answer or just some troll? I refuse to believe this is what he has to say in this case! This guy is not like 14years old afaik - those smileys are just retarded! The F91 answer did at least show some backbone - even though it might be Ash to honor for that... I really hope i am not rageing on some troll post...
The man registered on TL in 2004, I can't imagine someone got that account only to use it for a troll 5 years later ^^
So strange though, he always seemed like such a cooly guy
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Coming from you that means very little to me. I was good friends with several of the top coaches and managers. I've been to many a clan war and I'm telling you these guys wouldn't win this tournament. A2 and Dimaga might have made the top 16, or Round of 8 but they most certainly wouldn't win it. I am very familar with both of their styles and I know what potential they have. For example, A2's Terran has always been very suspect against Zerg. Ret has a ridiculously good record against him. Right about now, I would start talking about F91 as A2 and F91 were teammates on MYM., but it's irrelevant because F91 already got caught.
Now then substandard, exactly who are you to say these guys would actually win it? Matter of fact, did you even say that. No, you didn't. All you said is they would reach the top ten. Did I dismiss that? NO. Now, ask yourself the question again? Would these two players win the entire thing? Simple answer: NO. They are long shots.
Verbatim: NO. They would not win this tournament.
EDIT: Bifur, coming from you that means little to me. Don't take what I said out of context. I know A2 almost as well as you and just because you are his countryman (we know you Russians have a great sense of pride, you don't have to preach it) and fought many a war with him doesn't mean you can negate facts. He hasn't played solidly in a while. Hell, the kid has been on and off for ages. When he's on his A game he is a very, very good player but no one other than his fellow countrymen and a few other fan boys would expect him to win this thing because the competition has risen tenfold since A2's hay day.
With that said, as much as I would looove to say who is going to win this thing. I don't. But, I can give you a shortlist of 5 to 8 players who most likely would.
Last year I chose NonY over JF. Close but no cigar. I was very close selecting my fellow countryman and it wasn't out of blind faith, but because I was quite familiar with him as well.
Now, then sir. What do you have to say to that?
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On December 14 2009 00:02 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Coming from you that means very little to me. I was good friends with several of the top coaches and managers. I've been to many a clan war and I'm telling you these guys wouldn't win this tournament. A2 and Dimaga might have made the top 16, or Round of 8 but they most certainly wouldn't win it. I am very familar with both of their styles and I know what potential they have. For example, A2's Terran has always been very suspect against Zerg. Ret has a ridiculously good record against him. Right about now, I would start talking about F91 as A2 and F91 were teammates on MYM., but it's irrelevant because F91 already got caught.
Now then substandard, exactly who are you to say these guys would actually win it? Matter of fact, did you even say that. No, you didn't. All you said is they would reach the top ten. Did I dismiss that? NO. Now, ask yourself the question again? Would these two players win the entire thing? Simple answer: NO. They are long shots.
Verbatim: NO. They would not win this tournament.
In the end, you are both speculating.
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On December 14 2009 00:02 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Coming from you that means very little to me. I was good friends with several of the top coaches and managers. I've been to many a clan war and I'm telling you these guys wouldn't win this tournament. A2 and Dimaga might have made the top 16, or Round of 8 but they most certainly wouldn't win it. I am very familar with both of their styles and I know what potential they have. For example, A2's Terran has always been very suspect against Zerg. Ret has a ridiculously good record against him. Right about now, I would start talking about F91 as A2 and F91 were teammates on MYM., but it's irrelevant because F91 already got caught.
Now then substandard, exactly who are you to say these guys would actually win it? Matter of fact, did you even say that. No, you didn't. All you said is they would reach the top ten. Did I dismiss that? NO. Now, ask yourself the question again? Would these two players win the entire thing? Simple answer: NO. They are long shots.
Verbatim: NO. They would not win this tournament.
Now I don't know the president of blizzard, or know for sure that david Kim is in fact Nada. I drove my car to the car wash today and the doors froze shut and I couldn't get out till I ran the heat on high for 10 minutes. I am very familiar with this game starcraft and I'm telling you that bigger upsets have happened. Don't say that any of the guys that qualify Can't win the tournament.
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On December 14 2009 00:01 Pang0lin wrote:
We should just wait for the players to say they have to say.
Until then, im not saying anything .
What? What could they possibly say that would make you go... "oh well... that's fair and reasonable. rock on." Please elaborate. These are not guesses at possible abuse, these are clear instances of ladder abuse with clear evidence. There's nothing to say about that, no wonder they are not all over the forums trying to make themselves clear.
The only acceptable post they can make now is a final apology before disappearing. (and I hope they dont make that like Dimaga's ridiculous "attempt".)
On December 14 2009 00:02 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Coming from you that means very little to me. I was good friends with several of the top coaches and managers. I've been to many a clan war and I'm telling you these guys wouldn't win this tournament. A2 and Dimaga might have made the top 16, or Round of 8 but they most certainly wouldn't win it. I am very familar with both of their styles and I know what potential they have. For example, A2's Terran has always been very suspect against Zerg. Ret has a ridiculously good record against him. Right about now, I would start talking about F91 as A2 and F91 were teammates on MYM., but it's irrelevant because F91 already got caught.
Now then substandard, exactly who are you to say these guys would actually win it? Matter of fact, did you even say that. No, you didn't. All you said is they would reach the top ten. Did I dismiss that? NO. Now, ask yourself the question again? Would these two players win the entire thing? Simple answer: NO. They are long shots.
Verbatim: NO. They would not win this tournament.
EDIT: Bifur, coming from you that means little to me. Don't take what I said out of context. I know A2 almost as well as you and just because you are his countryman (we know you Russians have a great sense of pride, you don't have to preach it) and fought many a war with him doesn't mean you can negate facts. He hasn't played solidly in a while. Hell, the kid has been on and off for ages. When he's on his A game he is a very, very good player but no one other than his fellow countrymen and a few other fan boys would expect him to win this thing because the competition has risen tenfold since A2's hay day.
With that said, as much as I would looove to say who is going to win this thing. I don't. But, I can give you a shortlist of 5 to 8 players who most likely would.
Last year I chose NonY over JF. Close but no cigar. I was very close selecting my fellow countryman and it wasn't out of blind faith, but because I was quite familiar with him as well.
Now, then sir. What do you have to say to that? Who the hell are you, again?
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If this continues there might be a thread soon "TSL2 Canceled" because of all the cheaters..
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On December 13 2009 23:56 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this. yes 2nd'd Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD) Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ.
hes not the third best foreign t and neither of them had an appreciable chance of winning the whole thing, certainly not as good as ret's. dimaga is very good yes, and its not inconceivable that he could win, but it would be a very large long shot. rets zvz isnt as good as his other matchups but hes still not an underdog vs any foreign z, especially with f91 out of the picture, while dimaga would be the underdog vs at least a handful, and 50/50 vs quite a few others.
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I think all DQ'd players that write an apology note, should atleast post a reppack to the fans that have been following and cheering for them all through the ladder stages, i mean its much better than a "Dam i fucked up! ggs!"
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How many times does Vasilisk have to be caught cheating before we stop letting him in to these events?
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awesome work by TL staff. this makes it especially good for those who worked real hard to get into the top 48 and fell just outside the cutoff... who DIDN'T cheat.
11 down, ??? to go
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Maybe if there are enough abusers, I can get in. (how many people would need to be disqualified for #655 to get in, again?)
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On December 14 2009 00:10 538 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:01 Pang0lin wrote:
We should just wait for the players to say they have to say.
Until then, im not saying anything . What? What could they possibly say that would make you go... "oh well... that's fair and reasonable. rock on." Please elaborate. These are not guesses at possible abuse, these are clear instances of ladder abuse with clear evidence. There's nothing to say about that, no wonder they are not all over the forums trying to make themselves clear. The only acceptable post they can make now is a final apology before disappearing. (and I hope they dont make that like Dimaga's ridiculous "attempt".) Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:02 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Coming from you that means very little to me. I was good friends with several of the top coaches and managers. I've been to many a clan war and I'm telling you these guys wouldn't win this tournament. A2 and Dimaga might have made the top 16, or Round of 8 but they most certainly wouldn't win it. I am very familar with both of their styles and I know what potential they have. For example, A2's Terran has always been very suspect against Zerg. Ret has a ridiculously good record against him. Right about now, I would start talking about F91 as A2 and F91 were teammates on MYM., but it's irrelevant because F91 already got caught.
Now then substandard, exactly who are you to say these guys would actually win it? Matter of fact, did you even say that. No, you didn't. All you said is they would reach the top ten. Did I dismiss that? NO. Now, ask yourself the question again? Would these two players win the entire thing? Simple answer: NO. They are long shots.
Verbatim: NO. They would not win this tournament.
EDIT: Bifur, coming from you that means little to me. Don't take what I said out of context. I know A2 almost as well as you and just because you are his countryman (we know you Russians have a great sense of pride, you don't have to preach it) and fought many a war with him doesn't mean you can negate facts. He hasn't played solidly in a while. Hell, the kid has been on and off for ages. When he's on his A game he is a very, very good player but no one other than his fellow countrymen and a few other fan boys would expect him to win this thing because the competition has risen tenfold since A2's hay day.
With that said, as much as I would looove to say who is going to win this thing. I don't. But, I can give you a shortlist of 5 to 8 players who most likely would.
Last year I chose NonY over JF. Close but no cigar. I was very close selecting my fellow countryman and it wasn't out of blind faith, but because I was quite familiar with him as well.
Now, then sir. What do you have to say to that? Who the hell are you, again?
A smurf to you who knows the foreigner scene pretty well. Good day to you sir. =]
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wow the most stupid are dimaga : 3 minutes games XD
and reason omg haha his teerran is C+ level, impossible to him to win even vs a B- zerg
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On December 14 2009 00:12 LorDo wrote:
If this continues there might be a thread soon "TSL2 Canceled" because of all the cheaters..
No, but in reality the likelihood of another TSL being hosted is slim to none.
Not a pleasant thought. =/
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On December 14 2009 00:26 bEsT[Alive] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:12 LorDo wrote:
If this continues there might be a thread soon "TSL2 Canceled" because of all the cheaters.. No, but in reality the likelihood of another TSL being hosted is slim to none. Not a pleasant thought. =/
Rofl @ this post. You're right, the Olympics are steroid cases which is why it no longer exists......
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
oh the list goes on, how the fuck did so many resort to abuse ;<
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On December 14 2009 00:28 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:26 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 14 2009 00:12 LorDo wrote:
If this continues there might be a thread soon "TSL2 Canceled" because of all the cheaters.. No, but in reality the likelihood of another TSL being hosted is slim to none. Not a pleasant thought. =/ Rofl @ this post.
Best news of the day!
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On December 14 2009 00:14 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 23:56 samachking wrote:On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this. yes 2nd'd Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD) Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ. hes not the third best foreign t and neither of them had an appreciable chance of winning the whole thing, certainly not as good as ret's. dimaga is very good yes, and its not inconceivable that he could win, but it would be a very large long shot. rets zvz isnt as good as his other matchups but hes still not an underdog vs any foreign z, especially with f91 out of the picture, while dimaga would be the underdog vs at least a handful, and 50/50 vs quite a few others.
Im taking a wild guess you're putting yourself as #1 foreign T.
But honestly if you dont include yourself, who is better than A2? He's better than Strelok,Artosis,Morrow,Brat(?),Tarson and any other non-chinese or korean terran i can think of. Yosh might be better but i dont really think so.
The only foreigners i could think A2 would be the underdog vs is You and Ret
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On December 14 2009 00:28 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:26 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 14 2009 00:12 LorDo wrote:
If this continues there might be a thread soon "TSL2 Canceled" because of all the cheaters.. No, but in reality the likelihood of another TSL being hosted is slim to none. Not a pleasant thought. =/ Rofl @ this post. You're right, the Olympics are steroid cases which is why it no longer exists......
Ken, think about the other variables in play. For instance SC2.
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a2 is top3 foreign terran, it's a fact
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On December 14 2009 00:28 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:26 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 14 2009 00:12 LorDo wrote:
If this continues there might be a thread soon "TSL2 Canceled" because of all the cheaters.. No, but in reality the likelihood of another TSL being hosted is slim to none. Not a pleasant thought. =/ Rofl @ this post. You're right, the Olympics are steroid cases which is why it no longer exists......
bEsT[Alive] is greatly knowledgeable, who are you to question what he predicts?:-p
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On December 14 2009 00:31 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:14 IdrA wrote:On December 13 2009 23:56 samachking wrote:On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this. yes 2nd'd Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD) Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ. hes not the third best foreign t and neither of them had an appreciable chance of winning the whole thing, certainly not as good as ret's. dimaga is very good yes, and its not inconceivable that he could win, but it would be a very large long shot. rets zvz isnt as good as his other matchups but hes still not an underdog vs any foreign z, especially with f91 out of the picture, while dimaga would be the underdog vs at least a handful, and 50/50 vs quite a few others. Im taking a wild guess you're putting yourself as #1 foreign T. But honestly if you dont include yourself, who is better than A2? He's better than Strelok,Artosis,Morrow,Brat(?),Tarson and any other non-chinese or korean terran i can think of. Yosh might be better but i dont really think so. The only foreigners i could think A2 would be the underdog vs is You and Ret
id put nyoken brat and gosi[terran] over him, and then group him with strelok and some others i dont know well enough to really distinguish. i actually havent seen yosh play a game in a year and a half but id imagine hes at least as good, dont really know though.
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DIMAGA , SarenS , Yosh , Advokate ....
they just fucking lost my respect ...
srsly wtf !?!?!?!?
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On December 14 2009 00:34 purgerinho wrote:
a2 is top3 foreign terran, it's a fact
IdrA, Strelok, Brat_Ok, ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
A2.
Yes you are right. A2 is definitely top 3 foreign Terran.
Genius.
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wow nice job catching all the abusers. must take alot of work
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On December 14 2009 00:34 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Ken, think about the other variables in play. For instance SC2.
Stop pretending like you know things with a false sense of superiority. TL will be the biggest SC2 site and TSL's are going to keep rocking on until we are on your TV screen.
Consider this a warning please improve your posting to the point where it doesn't annoy 90% of the people reading.
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That would be great news Naz but until then I'll stick around waiting for the news post with TSL3 with a bigger cash prize and more sponsors.
No one knows what the future holds, but you cannot deny all this abuse holds well for the community.
***
Considering you haven't really been around the clan leagues for such a long time I don't think you should be one to judge bro.
I'll end it at that.
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On December 14 2009 00:37 bEsT[Alive] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:34 purgerinho wrote:
a2 is top3 foreign terran, it's a fact IdrA, Strelok, Brat_Ok, ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... A2. Yes you are right. A2 is definitely top 3 foreign Terran. Genius.
a2 is better than strelok so is brat_ok
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On December 14 2009 00:34 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:31 Pulimuli wrote:On December 14 2009 00:14 IdrA wrote:On December 13 2009 23:56 samachking wrote:On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this. yes 2nd'd Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD) Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ. hes not the third best foreign t and neither of them had an appreciable chance of winning the whole thing, certainly not as good as ret's. dimaga is very good yes, and its not inconceivable that he could win, but it would be a very large long shot. rets zvz isnt as good as his other matchups but hes still not an underdog vs any foreign z, especially with f91 out of the picture, while dimaga would be the underdog vs at least a handful, and 50/50 vs quite a few others. Im taking a wild guess you're putting yourself as #1 foreign T. But honestly if you dont include yourself, who is better than A2? He's better than Strelok,Artosis,Morrow,Brat(?),Tarson and any other non-chinese or korean terran i can think of. Yosh might be better but i dont really think so. The only foreigners i could think A2 would be the underdog vs is You and Ret id put nyoken brat and gosi[terran] over him, and then group him with strelok and some others i dont know well enough to really distinguish. i actually havent seen yosh play a game in a year and a half but id imagine hes at least as good, dont really know though.
There's no way imo that Gosi[Terran] is above A2, i dont know much about Nyoken but i know he's really good.
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It's a shame so much well known and GOOD players have done this, and I don't get it; they've done this for like 420pts which in most cases even don't matter on their quali or not? Silly silly pplz..
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On December 14 2009 00:37 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:34 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Ken, think about the other variables in play. For instance SC2. Stop pretending like you know things with a false sense of superiority. TL will be the biggest SC2 site and TSL's are going to keep rocking on until we are on your TV screen. Consider this a warning please improve your posting to the point where it doesn't annoy 90% of the people reading.
and kill rupert murdoch and take over
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On December 14 2009 00:40 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:34 IdrA wrote:On December 14 2009 00:31 Pulimuli wrote:On December 14 2009 00:14 IdrA wrote:On December 13 2009 23:56 samachking wrote:On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this. yes 2nd'd Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD) Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ. hes not the third best foreign t and neither of them had an appreciable chance of winning the whole thing, certainly not as good as ret's. dimaga is very good yes, and its not inconceivable that he could win, but it would be a very large long shot. rets zvz isnt as good as his other matchups but hes still not an underdog vs any foreign z, especially with f91 out of the picture, while dimaga would be the underdog vs at least a handful, and 50/50 vs quite a few others. Im taking a wild guess you're putting yourself as #1 foreign T. But honestly if you dont include yourself, who is better than A2? He's better than Strelok,Artosis,Morrow,Brat(?),Tarson and any other non-chinese or korean terran i can think of. Yosh might be better but i dont really think so. The only foreigners i could think A2 would be the underdog vs is You and Ret id put nyoken brat and gosi[terran] over him, and then group him with strelok and some others i dont know well enough to really distinguish. i actually havent seen yosh play a game in a year and a half but id imagine hes at least as good, dont really know though. There's no way imo that Gosi[Terran] is above A2, i dont know much about Nyoken but i know he's really good.
i have never understood this. you are no one, youve never played these people and you dont know enough about starcraft to actually analyze their play on any level. i have played all of them and gosi[terran] is significantly better than a2 in just about every aspect of the game. how are you trying to argue that with me?
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On December 14 2009 00:40 purgerinho wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:37 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 14 2009 00:34 purgerinho wrote:
a2 is top3 foreign terran, it's a fact IdrA, Strelok, Brat_Ok, ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... A2. Yes you are right. A2 is definitely top 3 foreign Terran. Genius. a2 is better than strelok so is brat_ok
In your opinion yeah that's fine with me because it is your opinion after all. Let's not turn this into a "Who do you think are the best top foreigners today?" thread because there are many of those.
They get boring and tedious because we'll never agree.
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dimaga yosh a2 f91 reason sarens
are they all stupid ?
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dimaga...
why did you abuse why?
idra and ret both said you could easily qualify with your insane mechanics alone
why???
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holy crap, I thought there would just be fairly unknown players that chose to abuse the ladder but this is just... I'm lost for words. but right should be right and good job TSL staff (and iCCup staff aswell I assume)
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On December 14 2009 00:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
I'll end it at that.
lol just click "post"
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On December 14 2009 00:44 bEsT[Alive] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:40 purgerinho wrote:On December 14 2009 00:37 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 14 2009 00:34 purgerinho wrote:
a2 is top3 foreign terran, it's a fact IdrA, Strelok, Brat_Ok, ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... A2. Yes you are right. A2 is definitely top 3 foreign Terran. Genius. a2 is better than strelok so is brat_ok In your opinion yeah that's fine with me because it is your opinion after all. Let's not turn this into a "Who do you think are the best top foreigners today?" thread because there are many of those. They get boring and tedious because we'll never agree.
that's true, it is "battle of opinions" but to stop it just look what every of this players made in their history.. strelok is great, really great but i would put brat_ok at 2nd and a2 at 3rd place..
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On December 14 2009 00:43 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:40 Pulimuli wrote:On December 14 2009 00:34 IdrA wrote:On December 14 2009 00:31 Pulimuli wrote:On December 14 2009 00:14 IdrA wrote:On December 13 2009 23:56 samachking wrote:On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this. yes 2nd'd Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD) Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ. hes not the third best foreign t and neither of them had an appreciable chance of winning the whole thing, certainly not as good as ret's. dimaga is very good yes, and its not inconceivable that he could win, but it would be a very large long shot. rets zvz isnt as good as his other matchups but hes still not an underdog vs any foreign z, especially with f91 out of the picture, while dimaga would be the underdog vs at least a handful, and 50/50 vs quite a few others. Im taking a wild guess you're putting yourself as #1 foreign T. But honestly if you dont include yourself, who is better than A2? He's better than Strelok,Artosis,Morrow,Brat(?),Tarson and any other non-chinese or korean terran i can think of. Yosh might be better but i dont really think so. The only foreigners i could think A2 would be the underdog vs is You and Ret id put nyoken brat and gosi[terran] over him, and then group him with strelok and some others i dont know well enough to really distinguish. i actually havent seen yosh play a game in a year and a half but id imagine hes at least as good, dont really know though. There's no way imo that Gosi[Terran] is above A2, i dont know much about Nyoken but i know he's really good. i have never understood this. you are no one, youve never played these people and you dont know enough about starcraft to actually analyze their play on any level. i have played all of them and gosi[terran] is significantly better than a2 in just about every aspect of the game. how are you trying to argue that with me?
Probably because everyone around here has a superiority complex Greg. o:
It's just a pile of nonsense. People like arguing for the sake of arguing.
Looking forward to you, ret, Draco amongst others ripping it up in January.
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On December 14 2009 00:43 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:40 Pulimuli wrote:On December 14 2009 00:34 IdrA wrote:On December 14 2009 00:31 Pulimuli wrote:On December 14 2009 00:14 IdrA wrote:On December 13 2009 23:56 samachking wrote:On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:On December 13 2009 23:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Well, on the bright side none of the guys who got caught (with the lone exception being F91 ofc -__-) would have won this tournament anyway. Are they capable of doing damage and pulling an upset? Of course they are, but they wouldn't win all the mullah anyway and many of them know this already. Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this. yes 2nd'd Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD) Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ. hes not the third best foreign t and neither of them had an appreciable chance of winning the whole thing, certainly not as good as ret's. dimaga is very good yes, and its not inconceivable that he could win, but it would be a very large long shot. rets zvz isnt as good as his other matchups but hes still not an underdog vs any foreign z, especially with f91 out of the picture, while dimaga would be the underdog vs at least a handful, and 50/50 vs quite a few others. Im taking a wild guess you're putting yourself as #1 foreign T. But honestly if you dont include yourself, who is better than A2? He's better than Strelok,Artosis,Morrow,Brat(?),Tarson and any other non-chinese or korean terran i can think of. Yosh might be better but i dont really think so. The only foreigners i could think A2 would be the underdog vs is You and Ret id put nyoken brat and gosi[terran] over him, and then group him with strelok and some others i dont know well enough to really distinguish. i actually havent seen yosh play a game in a year and a half but id imagine hes at least as good, dont really know though. There's no way imo that Gosi[Terran] is above A2, i dont know much about Nyoken but i know he's really good. i have never understood this. you are no one, youve never played these people and you dont know enough about starcraft to actually analyze their play on any level. i have played all of them and gosi[terran] is significantly better than a2 in just about every aspect of the game. how are you trying to argue that with me?
By pure results? Im not saying im better then you at analyzing their play and i havent played either A2 or Terran. There is no need for name-calling just because i think A2 > Terran
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you said "better than" not "more accomplished than"
i also didnt call you any names
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On December 14 2009 00:56 IdrA wrote:
you said "better than" not "more accomplished than"
i also didnt call you any names
I guess he's referring to "You are no one". Which was abit over the top imo. Sure he's not as accomplished as you are in the bw scene but still...
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HAHA GET OUT OF HERE ABUSERS
TSL KNOWS ALL
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On December 14 2009 00:58 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:56 IdrA wrote:
you said "better than" not "more accomplished than"
i also didnt call you any names I guess he's referring to "You are no one". Which was abit over the top imo. Sure he's not as accomplished as you are in the bw scene but still...
thats not really an insult, he is no one as in he doesnt participate in tournaments or leagues or anything and has no experience with the players hes trying to judge
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Fuck sake, i was looking forward to seeing Dimaga play
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On December 14 2009 00:58 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:56 IdrA wrote:
you said "better than" not "more accomplished than"
i also didnt call you any names Sure he's not as accomplished as you are in the bw scene but still...
I honestly hope that's not what he was implying because that would mean only Ret would be allowed to speculate because he's the best player right now.
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On December 14 2009 01:00 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:58 StylishVODs wrote:On December 14 2009 00:56 IdrA wrote:
you said "better than" not "more accomplished than"
i also didnt call you any names I guess he's referring to "You are no one". Which was abit over the top imo. Sure he's not as accomplished as you are in the bw scene but still... thats not really an insult, he is no one as in he doesnt participate in tournaments or leagues or anything and has no experience with the players hes trying to judge
You should probably have frased it "you are no one to judge this matter" or something like that. The other might seem insulting since it can be understood as "you are no one in general" which is pretty harsh.
Anyway it's not my arguement...
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well then perhaps you shouldnt be posting
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On December 14 2009 01:01 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:58 StylishVODs wrote:On December 14 2009 00:56 IdrA wrote:
you said "better than" not "more accomplished than"
i also didnt call you any names Sure he's not as accomplished as you are in the bw scene but still... I honestly hope that's not what he was implying because that would mean only Ret would be allowed to speculate because he's the best player right now.
haha i was referring to pulimuli;)
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On December 14 2009 01:04 IdrA wrote:
well then perhaps you shouldnt be posting
Well someone have to tell you about your bad social skills when you obviously cant see them.
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On December 14 2009 00:47 bEsT[Alive] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:43 IdrA wrote:On December 14 2009 00:40 Pulimuli wrote:On December 14 2009 00:34 IdrA wrote:On December 14 2009 00:31 Pulimuli wrote:On December 14 2009 00:14 IdrA wrote:On December 13 2009 23:56 samachking wrote:On December 13 2009 23:51 Substandard wrote:On December 13 2009 23:45 bEsT[Alive] wrote:On December 13 2009 23:42 Pulimuli wrote:
[quote]
Are you insane? A2 could've won this Let me repeat this for you one more time. No, he wouldn't of. Uh, wtf are you talking about, A2 and Dimaga imho are among the top 10 foreigners and both had a real shot at winning this. yes 2nd'd Dimaga is the 2nd best foreign Zerg and A2 is the 3rd best foreign T(ffs he took 1 game off JD) Saying they have no chance just shows that you are completely clueless about the foreign scene. Sure Idra has a better chance, but these 2 have just as good a chance as Ret considering his ZvZ. hes not the third best foreign t and neither of them had an appreciable chance of winning the whole thing, certainly not as good as ret's. dimaga is very good yes, and its not inconceivable that he could win, but it would be a very large long shot. rets zvz isnt as good as his other matchups but hes still not an underdog vs any foreign z, especially with f91 out of the picture, while dimaga would be the underdog vs at least a handful, and 50/50 vs quite a few others. Im taking a wild guess you're putting yourself as #1 foreign T. But honestly if you dont include yourself, who is better than A2? He's better than Strelok,Artosis,Morrow,Brat(?),Tarson and any other non-chinese or korean terran i can think of. Yosh might be better but i dont really think so. The only foreigners i could think A2 would be the underdog vs is You and Ret id put nyoken brat and gosi[terran] over him, and then group him with strelok and some others i dont know well enough to really distinguish. i actually havent seen yosh play a game in a year and a half but id imagine hes at least as good, dont really know though. There's no way imo that Gosi[Terran] is above A2, i dont know much about Nyoken but i know he's really good. i have never understood this. you are no one, youve never played these people and you dont know enough about starcraft to actually analyze their play on any level. i have played all of them and gosi[terran] is significantly better than a2 in just about every aspect of the game. how are you trying to argue that with me? Probably because everyone around here has a superiority complex Greg. o:
Lol the irony
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On December 14 2009 01:04 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:01 grobo wrote:On December 14 2009 00:58 StylishVODs wrote:On December 14 2009 00:56 IdrA wrote:
you said "better than" not "more accomplished than"
i also didnt call you any names Sure he's not as accomplished as you are in the bw scene but still... I honestly hope that's not what he was implying because that would mean only Ret would be allowed to speculate because he's the best player right now. haha i was referring to pulimuli;)
Hehe yeah i know things got a little confusing now..
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Stylish vs Idra Bo5 grudgematch gogogogo!
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On December 14 2009 01:06 Holgerius wrote:
Stylish vs Idra Bo5 grudgematch gogogogo!
lol haha! lets settle all arguements with games of starcraft;)
If he was zerg i'd go for it lol
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On December 14 2009 01:06 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:04 IdrA wrote:
well then perhaps you shouldnt be posting Well someone have to tell you about your bad social skills when you obviously cant see them.
it is not good social skills to politely accept ignorance. if we did that youd still be telling people to go fac port and attack with 6 tanks.
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u guys rly like each other yes ?
dont make sham of urself flame each other via PM plz ^^
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How petty to throw like 8 or more years of a clean record (afaik) in the SC scene for this and the lack of respect for the organizers and other players just sickens me, it would be somewhat forgivable a few years back when we everyone was just a kid but now¿? .. come on...
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This is freaking disgusting.
There were a lot of players who were close or even in the top48 who fell out because they tried to keep up with the cutoff. Had these players not abused the cutoff would've never been this high and those people would've probably qualified..
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On December 14 2009 01:29 meRz wrote:
This is freaking disgusting.
There were a lot of players who were close or even in the top48 who fell out because they tried to keep up with the cutoff. Had these players not abused the cutoff would've never been this high and those people would've probably qualified..
ya actually thats the worst part of the whole thing. theres quite a few people who were 9500ish and kept playing, losing points, because the cutoff was inflated by these people. really really sucks for them.
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On December 14 2009 01:11 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:06 StylishVODs wrote:On December 14 2009 01:04 IdrA wrote:
well then perhaps you shouldnt be posting Well someone have to tell you about your bad social skills when you obviously cant see them. it is not good social skills to politely accept ignorance. if we did that youd still be telling people to go fac port and attack with 6 tanks.
Well since you avoid all the points i make its still useless to argue with you.
The issue here was how you frased "You are no one". Well done avoiding that.
You're such a prick.
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yea great job admins and r1ch for really looking all this up. Really sad to see Dimaga do this tho, wouldent have expected it from him T_T
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Calgary25972 Posts
wow what a great thread lol
just started page 3, taking a break
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On December 14 2009 01:31 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:11 IdrA wrote:On December 14 2009 01:06 StylishVODs wrote:On December 14 2009 01:04 IdrA wrote:
well then perhaps you shouldnt be posting Well someone have to tell you about your bad social skills when you obviously cant see them. it is not good social skills to politely accept ignorance. if we did that youd still be telling people to go fac port and attack with 6 tanks. Well since you avoid all the points i make its still useless to argue with you. The issue here was how you frased "You are no one". Well done avoiding that. You're such a prick.
i said hes no one, hes never played them, and he doesnt know enough to analyze their play. if that doesnt make it clear to you that im talking in terms of competitive sc, where he is indeed a no one, and where its not really a bad thing to be a no one, then the fault lies in your inability to understand. not my phrasing.
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just have to express my disappointment.
Dimaga, WTF! WEAK.
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Why in heaven's name would people who are so high up on the ladder scale like Yosh, Dimaga, Reason want to cheat??
so lame
t.t
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On December 14 2009 01:33 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:31 StylishVODs wrote:On December 14 2009 01:11 IdrA wrote:On December 14 2009 01:06 StylishVODs wrote:On December 14 2009 01:04 IdrA wrote:
well then perhaps you shouldnt be posting Well someone have to tell you about your bad social skills when you obviously cant see them. it is not good social skills to politely accept ignorance. if we did that youd still be telling people to go fac port and attack with 6 tanks. Well since you avoid all the points i make its still useless to argue with you. The issue here was how you frased "You are no one". Well done avoiding that. You're such a prick. i said hes no one, hes never played them, and he doesnt know enough to analyze their play. if that doesnt make it clear to you that im talking in terms of competitive sc, where he is indeed a no one, and where its not really a bad thing to be a no one, then the fault lies in your inability to understand. not my phrasing.
No I understood it, but given your history of bad mannering and childish acting I think the frasing could have led to misunderstanding, which it did or he wouldn't have thought that you were namecalling.
I said, I guess he's referring to "You are no one".
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if you understood it and were only worried about misconceptions then why were you bitching about my lack of social skills?
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On December 14 2009 01:42 IdrA wrote:
if you understood it and were only worried about misconceptions then why were you bitching about my lack of social skills?
You should seriously get it by now.
Or perhaps you shouldn't be posting...
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that you say one thing and then say another when you realize that you were an idiot, and then repeat until the person you're talking to gets tired of you?
yes i should have gotten that long ago.
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lol Stylish Idra didn't say anything wrong are you being serious? He called him no one and is totally right... it's not insulting..
EDIT: Not to insult you, im just saying.. it's not really that clear cut. Maybe just let it go
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This keeps getting sadder and sadder lol...
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On December 14 2009 01:49 Vasoline73 wrote:
lol Stylish Idra didn't say anything wrong are you being serious? He called him no one and is totally right... it's not insulting..
EDIT: Not to insult you, im just saying.. it's not really that clear cut. Maybe just let it go
Yeh, it was pretty baseless start to the "argument", and he even threw in a social skills stab for no apparent reason.
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On December 14 2009 01:46 IdrA wrote:
that you say one thing and then say another when you realize that you were an idiot, and then repeat until the person you're talking to gets tired of you?
yes i should have gotten that long ago.
uhm?
1. you make a comment.
2. the guy thinks you're bming him.
3. i tell you why since you obviously didn't notice.
4. you explain why it wasnt bm.
5. i explain why it could be understood as bm.
6. you bm me.
7. I tell you your social skills are bad.
8. You counter this by telling me you're better in TvT.
9. I try to keep it to the matter discussed.
10. you think suddenly I didn't understand your point.
11. I get tired of explaining to you.
12. random bad mannered rant.
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On December 14 2009 01:54 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:49 Vasoline73 wrote:
lol Stylish Idra didn't say anything wrong are you being serious? He called him no one and is totally right... it's not insulting..
EDIT: Not to insult you, im just saying.. it's not really that clear cut. Maybe just let it go Yeh, it was pretty baseless start to the "argument", and he even threw in a social skills stab for no apparent reason.
I said it could be understood as name calling. Given Idras background of being bad mannered.
I only threw in the social skills part after he avoided my point and said that i shouldn't be posting.
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He probably knows it is, but no matter how bad manner it seems, what he said was the truth, and it wasn't said in that bad of a way, at least idra didn't mean it to anger him. If it was worded in a different way with the same meaning, no one would have spoken. (I.E someone with no experience vs them)
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On December 14 2009 01:58 Camlito wrote:
He probably knows it is, but no matter how bad manner it seems, what he said was the truth, and it wasn't said in that bad of a way, at least idra didn't mean it to anger him. If it was worded in a different way with the same meaning, no one would have spoken. (I.E someone with no experience vs them)
Exactly.
I didn't start out insulting idra, and I never meant to get into an arguement with him.
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Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Oh, there go two more players I was hoping to see.
I wonder if these players simply admitted this, if they would've been allowed to stay in. What a disappointment. Especially DIMAGA.
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Belgium9945 Posts
On December 14 2009 00:47 StylishVODs wrote:
Wow 11 people? Sadens me
You did the exact same abuse they did.. just not in the TSL
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
If it works for players like White-ra, Idra, Ret, Mondragon etc. it works for everyone because they are without a doubt the most famous players right now. It's sad that you don't have enough time to find games but that's the way it is and you can't blame the system for that.
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On December 14 2009 02:07 RaGe wrote:You did the exact same abuse they did.. just not in the TSL
...or any other tournament where it mattered to anyone.
Two different things in my mind.
1. Abuse on iccup which doesn't mean anything to anyone.
2. Abuse in a tournament where other people suffer.
It's really not the same thing. I would never abuse in a tournament, even if it wasn't money involved. Believe me, with all the smurfs I have, I had plenty of opportunity to give points to people but I didn't.
I tried to show people that my skill was A- and didn't have time to play and felt preassured to do so. This season I had time to play and now I have 3 A- accs and one soon A- which means that I didn't even try to fool anyone.
iccup
You don't agree to some extent?
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
And thus the ridiculous excuses and justification attempts have begun
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
No smurfing. For most players aiming to qualify for the TSL, there will be no doubt as to which ID to use. If you are unsure, use your most recognizable ID or your forum username. If you believe that your chances of qualifying will be severely hampered by using your real I.D. you may contact a TSL staff member to apply for an exemption.
A...huh. Alright.
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
[x] assume role of victim
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On December 14 2009 02:12 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded. Show nested quote +No smurfing. For most players aiming to qualify for the TSL, there will be no doubt as to which ID to use. If you are unsure, use your most recognizable ID or your forum username. If you believe that your chances of qualifying will be severely hampered by using your real I.D. you may contact a TSL staff member to apply for an exemption. A...huh. Alright.
Exactly, that post already failed in its first sentence
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On December 14 2009 01:54 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:46 IdrA wrote:
that you say one thing and then say another when you realize that you were an idiot, and then repeat until the person you're talking to gets tired of you?
yes i should have gotten that long ago. uhm? 1. you make a comment. 2. the guy thinks you're bming him. 3. i tell you why since you obviously didn't notice. 4. you explain why it wasnt bm. 5. i explain why it could be understood as bm. 6. you bm me. 7. I tell you your social skills are bad. 8. You counter this by telling me you're better in TvT. 9. I try to keep it to the matter discussed. 10. you think suddenly I didn't understand your point. 11. I get tired of explaining to you. 12. random bad mannered rant.
lol made my day xD
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
TSL 2 wasn't hurt very much by the disqualifications of the people who couldn't have made it into the top 48 without abusing. In other words, we're not going to miss Vasilisk, Riborobo, etc.
It *was* hurt by the disqualifications of the people who were very far up the ladder when they were disqualified, but you can hardly blame the TSL rules for that. Those disqualifications would have happened with or without the "no smurfing" rule.
I understand that you're taking partial responsibility, but it really appears that you're trying to shift any blame that you can onto people other than yourself.
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
Judging from your list of games you've been doing a fair ammount of dodging yourself. Regarding "beating the tops"... you havnt even played a single one of them.
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
You must be kiding right .... pls its obvious why ppl abused 200-300 points means difference from Q3 to Q2 and Q2 to Q1.
You could still play tons of koreans like white-ra idra ret and so much other players.
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dimaga too? ugh.. Who didn't abuse is what i want to know
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"getting wins in an irregular way", thats cute, Reason :D
Your excuse attempt is nothing but condescending, pretentious and preposterous, downright ridiculous with what i just quoted. Very disrespectfull all in all, gtfo.
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
Finally someones coming out with some reasoning!
I can see your point, but I cant agree with you. The rules might have been a disadvantage for you and the DQd-Players, but I cant see how this allows you to BREAK RULES!
Many modern maps help Zerg -> this does not give Ps the right break rules.
You could have protested or avoided the tournament.
And as you said you had fun without cheating. Why did you not keep it to it? You had to cheat to get a grab at the money? Money really spoiled you man! Its not your to make the rules how to get the money. The rules didnt favour you - bad luck. The world is not shaped by our wishes. You seem to have stopped playing SC for fun. About time you quit imho.
Its sad you cant even give a genuine excuse to the players you cheated on and even blame them...
Finally at least Yosh, A2, Dimaga (dont know about the others) had been well in the top48 and cheated to get even higher. If the low ranks are all Dodgers you could have taken em on in the Q1, Q2s where they can no longer dodge. That would have been your time to shine.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
btw I am currently accepting all fans who are now idol-less.
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On December 14 2009 02:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw I am currently accepting all fans who are now idol-less.
lol
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On December 14 2009 02:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw I am currently accepting all fans who are now idol-less.
is the #1 spot taken?
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On December 14 2009 02:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw I am currently accepting all fans who are now idol-less.
priceless
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On December 14 2009 02:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw I am currently accepting all fans who are now idol-less.
Hahaha! :D
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On December 14 2009 02:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw I am currently accepting all fans who are now idol-less.
yes! perhaps tonight i don't have to cut my self
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On December 14 2009 02:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw I am currently accepting all fans who are now idol-less.
sold
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
if you're so good then play koreans? they dont know who you are...
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All my favorite players got disqualified.
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Why do all these good players have to go and abuse themselves out of the tournament. Also I thought it was announced you would look at IPs when the ladder started, so they should have known it wouldn't work.
edit: I think I can safely say f*** Reason, if he thought he was at a disadvantage he could have applied to smurf, his defense is clearly only trying to take advantage of all the other greedy players that cheated in order to seem justified.
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On December 14 2009 02:32 SCC-Faust wrote:All my favorite players got disqualified.
Worry not, see above!
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What was the reasoning behind the absolutely no smurf rule? Why not allow them to smurf, but send their real IDs to TL admin?
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reason -.-
1. If you believe that your chances of qualifying will be severely hampered by using your real I.D. you may contact a TSL staff member to apply for an exemption.
2. dude play other top players ? kolll mondragon white-ra strelok etc would never dodge you and just the fact u scare play them and want noobs who scare you ... u see ? just play everyone
or 3. play vs koreans they not even know you xD
white-ra did too xD
ps: wow white-ra seems finding ALWAYS an enemey xD
i hate such stupid reasons ... i was so happy see you back and hoped u doing well and then THIS ... n/c
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Who needs soap operas when there's teamliquid? This is high drama.
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On December 14 2009 02:35 Scooge wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the absolutely no smurf rule? Why not allow them to smurf, but send their real IDs to TL admin?
I'm not sure.
One thing is for sure though, it would be extremely boring from a bystander/supporters point of view to see the ladder full of nothing but "an3jna4", "rn3larjalnr", "rlanan35" and so on.
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is awesome32269 Posts
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lol @ reason's post calling his abuse "getting wins irregular way"
like its just some new cheese build order or something
what a creative player
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
Man GTFO and please stay in retirement from now on.
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I wish Rek would drop in and post something, im sure it would be entertaining.
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Baa?21242 Posts
So what about the people who cheated in a different way? How are the T LAdmins gonna hunt them down? Keep 'em coming, drama!
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Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past.
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On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past.
ur right, bisu adn fantasy dodge u hardcore, sk telecom didn't want u to qualify for tsl
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On December 14 2009 00:37 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:34 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Ken, think about the other variables in play. For instance SC2. Stop pretending like you know things with a false sense of superiority. TL will be the biggest SC2 site and TSL's are going to keep rocking on until we are on your TV screen. Consider this a warning please improve your posting to the point where it doesn't annoy 90% of the people reading.
Now, you comment is probably based on a context that I do not know about. However, since you say that 90% of people would be annoying by his posts, in referring to the quoted ones, I feel I have to chip in.
I don't think what he's saying is annoying. I'm sure it will make sense to other people. When Teamliquid presented TSL2 as the last big Starcraft:Brood Wars tournament, I did also get the sense that it would be the last TSL tournament. Maybe it's not something that I considered very carefully, but this is the feeling I got. The release of Starcraft 2 and thereby perhaps the end of Starcraft:Brood Wars seems very final.
It's not impossible to imagine the following scenarios:
- Starcraft 2 is popular, but Starcraft:Brood Wars dies. The main people behind Teamliquid find themselves struggling to find motivation to run the site anymore and cannot identify with the new Starcraft 2 scene.
- Neither Starcraft 2 nor Starcraft:Brood Wars are popular enough to sustain a worthwhile scene, and therefore there will not be any more big Starcraft tournaments. Half of the people have joined the new game, while half refuse it. With its population halfed and no new people joining, the Starcraft:Brood Wars scene runs out of gas. The Starcraft 2 scene is not sustained for long enough to prosper as the gameplay does not catch on.
- Starcraft 2 is immensely popular, and the scene flourishes. The Teamliquid website is not able to retain its large crowd because other sites a poppiing up and are more willing to cover the foreign scene, where suddenly there is something to cover. Teamliquid never again has enough popularity to get sponsorship for another TSL tournament.
- Starcraft 2 does not win any popularity, but Starcraft:Brood Wars remains popular. Teamliquid has changed to Starcraft 2 coverage, but there isn't the basis for any major tournaments.
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On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past.
Get an account WITH A DIFFERENT COUNTRY FLAG THEN?
I had a japanese flag acc this start of season lol
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Braavos36373 Posts
On December 14 2009 02:51 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 00:37 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 14 2009 00:34 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Ken, think about the other variables in play. For instance SC2. Stop pretending like you know things with a false sense of superiority. TL will be the biggest SC2 site and TSL's are going to keep rocking on until we are on your TV screen. Consider this a warning please improve your posting to the point where it doesn't annoy 90% of the people reading. Now, you comment is probably based on a context that I do not know about. However, since you say that 90% of people would be annoying by his posts, in referring to the quoted ones, I feel I have to chip in. I don't think what he's saying is annoying. I'm sure it will make sense to other people. When Teamliquid presented TSL2 as the last big Starcraft:Brood Wars tournament, I did also get the sense that it would be the last TSL tournament. Maybe it's not something that I considered very carefully, but this is the feeling I got. The release of Starcraft 2 and thereby perhaps the end of Starcraft:Brood Wars seems very final. It's not impossible to imagine the following scenarios: - Starcraft 2 is popular, but Starcraft:Brood Wars dies. The main people behind Teamliquid find themselves struggling to find motivation to run the site anymore and cannot identify with the new Starcraft 2 scene.
- Neither Starcraft 2 nor Starcraft:Brood Wars are popular enough to sustain a worthwhile scene, and therefore there will not be any more big Starcraft tournaments. Half of the people have joined the new game, while half refuse it. With its population halfed and no new people joining, the Starcraft:Brood Wars scene runs out of gas. The Starcraft 2 scene is not sustained for long enough to prosper as the gameplay does not catch on.
- Starcraft 2 is immensely popular, and the scene flourishes. The Teamliquid website is not able to retain its large crowd because other sites a poppiing up and are more willing to cover the foreign scene, where suddenly there is something to cover. Teamliquid never again has enough popularity to get sponsorship for another TSL tournament.
- Starcraft 2 does not win any popularity, but Starcraft:Brood Wars remains popular. Teamliquid has changed to Starcraft 2 coverage, but there isn't the basis for any major tournaments.
I think he means we're going to run a TSL for StarCraft 2.
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On December 14 2009 02:51 baller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past. ur right, bisu adn fantasy dodge u hardcore, sk telecom didn't want u to qualify for tsl
When i said that koreans dodged me? are u dumb? the foreigners did, i got some games vs the tops at beguining like vs fenix, g5, chosen, when i reached B+~A- with 85% it became really annoying, and i didnt dodge koreans, i played vs them, the problem is im from BRAZIL and time zone difference is 12hours, basically when i was playing they were sleeping and vice-versa.
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On December 14 2009 02:57 dshsdhk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:51 baller wrote:On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past. ur right, bisu adn fantasy dodge u hardcore, sk telecom didn't want u to qualify for tsl When i said that koreans dodged me? are u dumb? the foreigners did, i got some games vs the tops at beguining like vs fenix, g5, chosen, when i reached B+~A- with 85% it became really annoying, and i didnt dodge koreans, i played vs them, the problem is im from BRAZIL and time zone difference is 12hours, basically when i was playing they were sleeping and vice-versa.
can u show me ur superabuse cheese build?
like (-4) pool, win before game start
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On December 14 2009 02:57 dshsdhk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:51 baller wrote:On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past. ur right, bisu adn fantasy dodge u hardcore, sk telecom didn't want u to qualify for tsl When i said that koreans dodged me? are u dumb? the foreigners did, i got some games vs the tops at beguining like vs fenix, g5, chosen, when i reached B+~A- with 85% it became really annoying, and i didnt dodge koreans, i played vs them, the problem is im from BRAZIL and time zone difference is 12hours, basically when i was playing they were sleeping and vice-versa.
You didn't play against a single korean who was A-
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On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past.
You managed to fix yourself a Japanese smurf, but getting on for TSL would be impossible? lol....
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I LOVE THIS DRAMA! GOD IT'S LIKE I AM 7 AGAIN AND WAITING FOR SANTA!
back to fap fap flap and read every single comment <3
Sorry for caps
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i didnt create the acc, it is a friend acc, which was shared between 2 players, i just played a couple of games on that to warm up.
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On December 14 2009 02:32 Julmust wrote:
if you're so good then play koreans? they dont know who you are...
There is not really any point to what you are saying. He already stated the reason why he didn't want to play Koreans. He said that it was unfair that he had to play Koreans just because he was being dodged.
For him, and all the other players playing, it's about how much time you spend on qualifying. You have an old game with a very small scene, where it's possible for a lot of retired of semi-retired gamers to still compete when the competition allows them. They most likely quit because Starcraft was not big enough or important enough for them to keep prioritizing it over other things. But with tournaments such as TSL or WCG, they can suddenly justify using more of their time on Starcraft than what would be ideal, especially if they still love the game very much.
That means that you have very limited time to play, and you do not want to play more than necessary. Because people are dodging you on the ladder, you need to use more time than you have to be able to compete and qualify. So, just play Koreans? The think is that if you would have a lower winrate against Koreans, who are better competition, it would take you more time to qualify, which puts you in the same situation. You are good enough, but you are forced you use an excessive amount of time. Also, I really have no idea whether Koreans are online all hours of the day (it's maybe ten years ago that I played Starcraft), but, if not, people in some time zones will not have any easier time of finding Korean opponents. So, it's definately a way of making sure that only the most devoted players are able to qualify for the tournament, but personally I am missing out on some players I really wanted to see.
One time that this does deal with, though, is that fact that many people are prone to abuse when it's easy to do, which is a horrible mentality. It's so sad when you see a lot. People never really take online tournaments seriously in this sense, and I definately feel that the ones who are abusing are disrespecting Teamliquid and in a sense also the competition. Still, it can in no way be compared to hacking/cheating. Hacking ruins the integrity of the game, meaning no one can trust anyone. This just ruins some of the integrity of the tournament, while it does seem that Teamliquid somehow redeems itself by being so effective in finding the abusers.
It's certainly right to ban these people, but the situation is sad. The quality of the tournament, at least before this, was higher than that of the last tournament. And now we probably will not get to see the replay packs of the people who were banned, meaning that, apart from missing out on them i qualifying rounds and playoff, we miss out of a lot of good replays. I do not think that smurfs should be allowed - there should be full visibility for the fans - but I think the problem lies in the mindset of people. So, KwarK, you really should not feel vindicated, this is all your fault
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Austin10831 Posts
On December 14 2009 03:05 dshsdhk wrote:
i didnt create the acc, it is a friend acc, which was shared between 2 players, i just played a couple of games on that to warm up.
so wtf exactly is your point? you complained about not being allowed to smurf, and that everyone dodged you because you're too good etc, and that has been resoundingly disproved.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
lol @ the "I'm a victim" defense going on here
Reason it should be fairly plain to see that there is no acceptable excuse for creating a smurf and freewinning off of it. The time difference with Brazil isn't so bad (I'm in relatively the same time zone) and the dodging wasn't as hard core as you illustrate. You obviously made it within range of qualifying WITHOUT the abuse you just got greedy. Punishment fits the crime.
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Fucking despicable. I get more pissed every time I see these. These are respected players, is a career-tainting move worth it?
EDIT: There's no excuse. Cheating is cheating.
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On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past.
Did you actually talk to the admins, and their solution was to let you play under another name with a Brazilian flag? Or are you just assuming this is what would happen? Because I have a hard time believing the staff would be that short-sighted when they have been amazing in every other way running this tournament. Because, logically speaking, I don't think there's any doubt that the staff (especially working closely w/ ICcup) would have the resources to give you a workable smurf account. It sounds like you either just didn't read the rules or you just decided to solve your own problems by cheating without even asking what could be done. Either way, that's pretty much your own fault.
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On December 14 2009 03:05 dshsdhk wrote:
i didnt create the acc, it is a friend acc, which was shared between 2 players, i just played a couple of games on that to warm up.
you know who the REAL victims here are?
[19:10:35] Goody
[19:10:40] and RoX.Alf
[19:10:43] both had like
[19:10:45] 9500 points
[19:10:48] but cutoff was 9700
[19:10:51] so they mass gamed
[19:10:52] lost
[19:10:53] raged
[19:10:55] cleared stats
[19:10:57] so sad
[19:11:00] both good manner players
[19:11:04] fucking abusers.
I fully agree. They didnt abuse, they fought their way to their stats. Fuck you and your abusing.
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wow... honestly, this tsl lookin a bit like a bust, all tops players get dq T.T really sad to hear
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On December 14 2009 02:56 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:51 Asjo wrote:On December 14 2009 00:37 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 14 2009 00:34 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Ken, think about the other variables in play. For instance SC2. Stop pretending like you know things with a false sense of superiority. TL will be the biggest SC2 site and TSL's are going to keep rocking on until we are on your TV screen. Consider this a warning please improve your posting to the point where it doesn't annoy 90% of the people reading. Now, you comment is probably based on a context that I do not know about. However, since you say that 90% of people would be annoying by his posts, in referring to the quoted ones, I feel I have to chip in. I don't think what he's saying is annoying. I'm sure it will make sense to other people. When Teamliquid presented TSL2 as the last big Starcraft:Brood Wars tournament, I did also get the sense that it would be the last TSL tournament. Maybe it's not something that I considered very carefully, but this is the feeling I got. The release of Starcraft 2 and thereby perhaps the end of Starcraft:Brood Wars seems very final. It's not impossible to imagine the following scenarios: - Starcraft 2 is popular, but Starcraft:Brood Wars dies. The main people behind Teamliquid find themselves struggling to find motivation to run the site anymore and cannot identify with the new Starcraft 2 scene.
- Neither Starcraft 2 nor Starcraft:Brood Wars are popular enough to sustain a worthwhile scene, and therefore there will not be any more big Starcraft tournaments. Half of the people have joined the new game, while half refuse it. With its population halfed and no new people joining, the Starcraft:Brood Wars scene runs out of gas. The Starcraft 2 scene is not sustained for long enough to prosper as the gameplay does not catch on.
- Starcraft 2 is immensely popular, and the scene flourishes. The Teamliquid website is not able to retain its large crowd because other sites a poppiing up and are more willing to cover the foreign scene, where suddenly there is something to cover. Teamliquid never again has enough popularity to get sponsorship for another TSL tournament.
- Starcraft 2 does not win any popularity, but Starcraft:Brood Wars remains popular. Teamliquid has changed to Starcraft 2 coverage, but there isn't the basis for any major tournaments.
I think he means we're going to run a TSL for StarCraft 2.
What I am relating to is bEsT saying that there will likely not be any future TSL tournaments and Nazgul reacting to this, saying there will be - that Teamliquid will keep up with Starcraft 2. I'm am then responding to Nazgul, saying that it is not unlikely that Teamliquid will not end up doing a TSL for Starcraft 2, due to, for instance, one of the scenarios I mentioned.
Am I misunderstand you or did you think I am trying to explain why there would not be any future TSL tournaments for Starcraft:Brood War? Because I do get that Teamliquid is not intending to have any of those, as you guys are planning to go on board with Starcraft 2.
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Austin10831 Posts
On December 14 2009 03:14 mysticism wrote:
wow... honestly, this tsl lookin a bit like a bust, all tops players get dq T.T really sad to hear
lol? are u serious? RiboRibo, Scan, Mercery, Vasilisk omg cream of the crop is gone.
Most of the top players are right where they should be.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
it does suck for alf and goody but there was literally NO point in resetting and the only thing that made them do that was their own lack of self control / immaturity. I'm fine with them learning a hard lesson. If SCBW can teach them that they shouldn't quit something before it is over then this was a victory.
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
On December 14 2009 01:31 Machine[USA] wrote:
yea great job admins and r1ch for really looking all this up. Really sad to see Dimaga do this tho, wouldent have expected it from him T_T
Ugh............Machine? Have you forgotten about me? Your loyal supporter. T_T
Drama is juicy, but this much drama is just sad =( So many good players gone. I sort of expected it from Scan though.
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Im not saying that im a victim, obvious i did shit, what we did was wrong, i didnt think on the consequences, i did this cause i got mad being dodged non-stop when i really wanted to get in top 13~24, i didnt say that i was a GOD and because of that they dodged me, what can i do if i got a good win %?? i hope that people undestand the situation, and improve the rules for those that can have the same problem in the future, i wish i played only offraces getting a poor stats so i would be qualifed.
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On December 14 2009 03:19 dshsdhk wrote:
Im not saying that im a victim, obvious i did shit, what we did was wrong, i didnt think on the consequences, i did this cause i got mad being dodged non-stop when i really wanted to get in top 13~24, i didnt say that i was a GOD and because of that they dodged me, what can i do if i got a good win %?? i hope that people undestand the situation, and improve the rules for those that can have the same problem in the future, i wish i played only offraces getting a poor stats so i would be qualifed.
yeah sux that tsl rules make u create a fake japanese account, ladder it up 2 B+ rank, get ur friend to play on account, play vs you, and hide games from tsl admins
stupid rules
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United States42234 Posts
On December 13 2009 21:16 MorroW[MB] wrote:
holy fuck balls
dimaga??????????+
Yeah, I know.
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Calgary25972 Posts
I wish you brought up these issues while they were happening.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 14 2009 03:19 dshsdhk wrote:
Im not saying that im a victim, obvious i did shit, what we did was wrong, i didnt think on the consequences, i did this cause i got mad being dodged non-stop when i really wanted to get in top 13~24, i didnt say that i was a GOD and because of that they dodged me, what can i do if i got a good win %?? i hope that people undestand the situation, and improve the rules for those that can have the same problem in the future, i wish i played only offraces getting a poor stats so i would be qualifed.
ReasoN,
What we understand is that many other players managed to get into their positions, and were doubtless more famous and more dangerous than you. I'm sorry for you, but a little humility would be nice right now. Accept the decision, and accept that there really isn't a ton of evidence that these rules were broken.
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On December 14 2009 03:06 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:32 Julmust wrote:
if you're so good then play koreans? they dont know who you are... There is not really any point to what you are saying. He already stated the reason why he didn't want to play Koreans. He said that it was unfair that he had to play Koreans just because he was being dodged. For him, and all the other players playing, it's about how much time you spend on qualifying. You have an old game with a very small scene, where it's possible for a lot of retired of semi-retired gamers to still compete when the competition allows them. They most likely quit because Starcraft was not big enough or important enough for them to keep prioritizing it over other things. But with tournaments such as TSL or WCG, they can suddenly justify using more of their time on Starcraft than what would be ideal, especially if they still love the game very much. That means that you have very limited time to play, and you do not want to play more than necessary. Because people are dodging you on the ladder, you need to use more time than you have to be able to compete and qualify. So, just play Koreans? The think is that if you would have a lower winrate against Koreans, who are better competition, it would take you more time to qualify, which puts you in the same situation. You are good enough, but you are forced you use an excessive amount of time. Also, I really have no idea whether Koreans are online all hours of the day (it's maybe ten years ago that I played Starcraft), but, if not, people in some time zones will not have any easier time of finding Korean opponents. So, it's definately a way of making sure that only the most devoted players are able to qualify for the tournament, but personally I am missing out on some players I really wanted to see. One time that this does deal with, though, is that fact that many people are prone to abuse when it's easy to do, which is a horrible mentality. It's so sad when you see a lot. People never really take online tournaments seriously in this sense, and I definately feel that the ones who are abusing are disrespecting Teamliquid and in a sense also the competition. Still, it can in no way be compared to hacking/cheating. Hacking ruins the integrity of the game, meaning no one can trust anyone. This just ruins some of the integrity of the tournament, while it does seem that Teamliquid somehow redeems itself by being so effective in finding the abusers. It's certainly right to ban these people, but the situation is sad. The quality of the tournament, at least before this, was higher than that of the last tournament. And now we probably will not get to see the replay packs of the people who were banned, meaning that, apart from missing out on them i qualifying rounds and playoff, we miss out of a lot of good replays. I do not think that smurfs should be allowed - there should be full visibility for the fans - but I think the problem lies in the mindset of people. So, KwarK, you really should not feel vindicated, this is all your fault
Exactly, but people wont understand anyway, i give up.
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On December 14 2009 03:19 dshsdhk wrote:
Im not saying that im a victim, obvious i did shit, what we did was wrong, i didnt think on the consequences, i did this cause i got mad being dodged non-stop when i really wanted to get in top 13~24, i didnt say that i was a GOD and because of that they dodged me, what can i do if i got a good win %?? i hope that people undestand the situation, and improve the rules for those that can have the same problem in the future, i wish i played only offraces getting a poor stats so i would be qualifed.
You could just have skipped those "extra" wins and you would have been qualified. Youre trying to make yourself a victim, again.
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Feel sad about the players who played aloth in the end just to try to come to 9600 points and lost and wont even be in now with allt these abusers!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Look reason: If these other big names can get games I sure as hell think you can. And like I said, you cannot blame the timezone: IKNOW the timezone. We bleed into euro early morning, korean night/morning and american time. We get em all dude. If you were unable/unwilling to stay up late at night or wake up early morning and inconvenience yourself on a minor level to get more games to get HIGHER in the ladder you already qual'd for then do it.
YOu know what you did was wrong. You know the consequences. DON'T point the finger at the community and blame your "high win %" sorry but others have a more recognizable name and a better win % and they got games.. that obviously isn't perfect science but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what you did and the reasons you did it for don't match up. Spending ANY TIME on "what TSL could do better" is a joke.
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On December 14 2009 03:17 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 03:14 mysticism wrote:
wow... honestly, this tsl lookin a bit like a bust, all tops players get dq T.T really sad to hear lol? are u serious? RiboRibo, Scan, Mercery, Vasilisk omg cream of the crop is gone. Most of the top players are right where they should be.
f91 dimaga reason, some very good players and it was been what.. less than a day at identifying abuser? there will prob be more to get dq.
and as inc said below other players reset out of rage and cant be brought back in
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Austin10831 Posts
On December 14 2009 03:27 mysticism wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 03:17 BroOd wrote:On December 14 2009 03:14 mysticism wrote:
wow... honestly, this tsl lookin a bit like a bust, all tops players get dq T.T really sad to hear lol? are u serious? RiboRibo, Scan, Mercery, Vasilisk omg cream of the crop is gone. Most of the top players are right where they should be. f91 dimaga reason, some very good players and it was been what.. less than a day at identifying abuser? there will prob be more to get dq. and as inc said below other players reset out of rage and cant be brought back in
"all top players get dq" was what you said, which is really stupid.
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On December 14 2009 03:30 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 03:27 mysticism wrote:On December 14 2009 03:17 BroOd wrote:On December 14 2009 03:14 mysticism wrote:
wow... honestly, this tsl lookin a bit like a bust, all tops players get dq T.T really sad to hear lol? are u serious? RiboRibo, Scan, Mercery, Vasilisk omg cream of the crop is gone. Most of the top players are right where they should be. f91 dimaga reason, some very good players and it was been what.. less than a day at identifying abuser? there will prob be more to get dq. and as inc said below other players reset out of rage and cant be brought back in "all top players get dq" was what you said, which is really stupid.
sorry mr fucking nit picker... next time i will be more clear at the point/msg that i am trying to get out so that i dont offend u
**dont forget yosh and advokate
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United States42234 Posts
On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past.
Seriously? You think that all koreans know you and want to dodge you? Even if you're on a smurf. I guess it takes delusions like that to manage the logic "I'm so good I deserve a place, I can't get a place by merit, therefore I'll take it by cheating because I'm so good".
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Austin10831 Posts
On December 14 2009 03:31 mysticism wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 03:30 BroOd wrote:On December 14 2009 03:27 mysticism wrote:On December 14 2009 03:17 BroOd wrote:On December 14 2009 03:14 mysticism wrote:
wow... honestly, this tsl lookin a bit like a bust, all tops players get dq T.T really sad to hear lol? are u serious? RiboRibo, Scan, Mercery, Vasilisk omg cream of the crop is gone. Most of the top players are right where they should be. f91 dimaga reason, some very good players and it was been what.. less than a day at identifying abuser? there will prob be more to get dq. and as inc said below other players reset out of rage and cant be brought back in "all top players get dq" was what you said, which is really stupid. sorry mr fucking nit picker... next time i will be more clear at the point/msg that i am trying to get out so that i dont offend u **dont forget yosh
You're trying to paint TSL as a failure because a couple of decent players got DQ'd, and I'm gonna call you out on it. Calm down.
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On December 14 2009 03:34 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 03:31 mysticism wrote:On December 14 2009 03:30 BroOd wrote:On December 14 2009 03:27 mysticism wrote:On December 14 2009 03:17 BroOd wrote:On December 14 2009 03:14 mysticism wrote:
wow... honestly, this tsl lookin a bit like a bust, all tops players get dq T.T really sad to hear lol? are u serious? RiboRibo, Scan, Mercery, Vasilisk omg cream of the crop is gone. Most of the top players are right where they should be. f91 dimaga reason, some very good players and it was been what.. less than a day at identifying abuser? there will prob be more to get dq. and as inc said below other players reset out of rage and cant be brought back in "all top players get dq" was what you said, which is really stupid. sorry mr fucking nit picker... next time i will be more clear at the point/msg that i am trying to get out so that i dont offend u **dont forget yosh You're trying to paint TSL as a failure because a couple of decent players got DQ'd, and I'm gonna call you out on it. Calm down.
......... ok, all i am saying is that there is a section of well-known respective players that have been caught absuing to qualify. all i am saying is that it is unfortunaite that this should take place since they would have provided us with some top lvl games. so me making MY OWN OPINION and sayin the tourny would have been better with this players still involved... i am not saying the tourny is a fail, just not possilbe gving the best possible games b/c of have top players dq for being idiots
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United States42234 Posts
One more person gets disced and I think 9290 will be the cutoff. Which is sickening.
Really sucks for all those people on the last day who got up to 9500s and kept playing.
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On December 14 2009 03:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:48 dshsdhk wrote:
Ye sure, the admins would let me create a smurf acc with a brasilian flag and no one would know who i was? wake up plz... and btw koreans know who i was, since when i was active i used to play on west and i was the one the fews that joined top clans like SaSin, [saM] and used to play cw´s for them and had friendship with some progamers , ve beaten silent_control at wcg 2005 in a televisioned game, so im sure some of them remember me from past. Seriously? You think that all koreans know you and want to dodge you? Even if you're on a smurf. I guess it takes delusions like that to manage the logic "I'm so good I deserve a place, I can't get a place by merit, therefore I'll take it by cheating because I'm so good".
Just to save ReasoN the time, since pages seem quick to come by for this news item
On December 14 2009 02:57 dshsdhk wrote:
When i said that koreans dodged me? are u dumb? the foreigners did, i got some games vs the tops at beguining like vs fenix, g5, chosen, when i reached B+~A- with 85% it became really annoying, and i didnt dodge koreans, i played vs them, the problem is im from BRAZIL and time zone difference is 12hours, basically when i was playing they were sleeping and vice-versa.
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Canada7170 Posts
Nothing makes my morning like a cup of joe and a plate of sizzling drama.
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Would be nice with an little extra tourney for the the people high on the list for the last spots in top 48.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I'd like to next get an explanation from:
DIMAGA and Advokate
We've heard from f91 and ReasoN, but those are the other two who had legitimate shots at the top 16, and who nuked themselves.
EDIT: Oh, never mind, didn't see Dimaga. Dammit Dimaga.
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Dimaga actually gave a hilarious one - something like "was stupid, sry, hf" with smileys inbetween...
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if there is a rule that TSL players have to play with only (and only!) TSL players things would be great... who can tell what is going on in idra's/ret's progaming house.. i'm not attacking them, i'm just saying that this format of tournament gives a lot of chance to cheat in many other forms than this abuse... i mean, i have a good friend that has an account at iccup and he gives me freewin.. he tells me beofre the game what build he will go and thats it.. i mean, he can be T, i can be Z and he can try 14 cc and suddenly i'm coming with lings...
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On December 14 2009 03:55 purgerinho wrote:
if there is a rule that TSL players have to play with only (and only!) TSL players things would be great... who can tell what is going on in idra's/ret's progaming house.. i'm not attacking them, i'm just saying that this format of tournament gives a lot of chance to cheat in many other forms than this abuse... i mean, i have a good friend that has an account at iccup and he gives me freewin.. he tells me beofre the game what build he will go and thats it.. i mean, he can be T, i can be Z and he can try 14 cc and suddenly i'm coming with lings...
you will see more dodge then
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On December 14 2009 03:55 purgerinho wrote:
if there is a rule that TSL players have to play with only (and only!) TSL players things would be great... who can tell what is going on in idra's/ret's progaming house.. i'm not attacking them, i'm just saying that this format of tournament gives a lot of chance to cheat in many other forms than this abuse... i mean, i have a good friend that has an account at iccup and he gives me freewin.. he tells me beofre the game what build he will go and thats it.. i mean, he can be T, i can be Z and he can try 14 cc and suddenly i'm coming with lings...
dodgeing and finding players at some times would be a much bigger prob...
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On December 14 2009 03:53 tree.hugger wrote:
I'd like to next get an explanation from:
DIMAGA and Advokate
We've heard from f91 and ReasoN, but those are the other two who had legitimate shots at the top 16, and who nuked themselves.
dimaga said he fucked up, said sorry and gl in TSL. it's like on 2nd or 3rd page.
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On December 14 2009 03:53 tree.hugger wrote:
I'd like to next get an explanation from:
DIMAGA and Advokate
We've heard from f91 and ReasoN, but those are the other two who had legitimate shots at the top 16, and who nuked themselves.
On December 13 2009 21:36 NgS.DIMAGA wrote:
FUCKED UP :D SHiT HAPPEND xD
sorry guys about that, its really stupid think i do ^_^ Good Luck to all players TSL !
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I believe Reason is definitely making a valid point and most people know Reason and some other "tsl2 abusers" are legit players and pretty mannered throughout the years in the community. It sucks that they have to get out of this "stained".
However, as Chill already pointed out, he should have brought up these issues while they were happening instead of trying to find a way around. Contact a ladder admin, try together to find a solution within the rules, or maybe even end up making some new rules - I don't know what and it doesn't matter at this point really.
So, yes maybe the tsl ladder system is not without flaws, but that doesn't give you the right to try to force your way up.
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On December 14 2009 03:48 Get.Midikem wrote:
Would be nice with an little extra tourney for the the people high on the list for the last spots in top 48.
I actually like this idea, sounds like a bit of fair solace for all the people who forced themselves to play more due to the falsely inflated cutoff limit, or maybe even those who cleared their stats in rage. I'm not sure how viable an idea it is though + Show Spoiler +not too viable, raises a lot of questions
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i talked to dimaga and he said
he admit he cheat and he is sorry, but it is ok. he wasnt at home and he thought it would end soon so he fix auto win, but then he saw later it was 1 hour left so ^^;;;;;
but he said it doesnt matter too much~~ not too important not cheat, just stupid
talked to scan and he said
he knew he was playing against mercurys(who now this guy is lol) smurf but he didnt know it was 4-0, he didnt keep track of score. he is sorry and he agree with admin in the dq
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On December 14 2009 04:02 538 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 03:48 Get.Midikem wrote:
Would be nice with an little extra tourney for the the people high on the list for the last spots in top 48. I actually like this idea, sounds like a bit of fair solace for all the people who forced themselves to play more due to the falsely inflated cutoff limit, or maybe even those who cleared their stats in rage. I'm not sure how viable an idea it is though + Show Spoiler +not too viable, raises a lot of questions
It won't be a fun idea for those actually occupying those last spots right now.
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you can't dodge so much if you have to play TSL players only.. look at the list, there is around 60 A- players and you can't play with one of them after 3-0 (4-1, 5-2...) so u have to go against someone else.. and if there is TSL players only tour then there could be tours to gain you 1000 points for winning or something like that..
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Dimaga, are you serious? O_o
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Canada7170 Posts
On December 14 2009 04:02 MorroW[MB] wrote:
i talked to dimaga and he said
he admit he cheat and he is sorry, but it is ok. he wasnt at home and he thought it would end soon so he fix auto win, but then he saw later it was 1 hour left so ^^;;;;;
but he said it doesnt matter too much~~ not too important not cheat, just stupid
talked to scan and he said
he knew he was playing against mercurys(who now this guy is lol) smurf but he didnt know it was 4-0, he didnt keep track of score. he is sorry and he agree with admin in the dq
wtf this has mostly nothing to do with score. Does he understand this?
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lol, I love how the cheaters who've responded so far have so little shame.
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hey im just saying what he said to me, im not saying i agree or anything at all for that matter. for all i know he could have been feeding me lies just felt like giving u guys some perspective and answers xd
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
Mamon played more than 800 games. I guess he played 24/7. It was important for him and so he found time for what is important for him.
If the game is important to you, find time for it. If you want to quit this game, just quit it. You should realize what is important for you in your life.
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On December 14 2009 04:02 MorroW[MB] wrote:talked to scan and he said
he knew he was playing against mercurys(who now this guy is lol) smurf but he didnt know it was 4-0, he didnt keep track of score. he is sorry and he agree with admin in the dq
lol at scan, this makes it sound like he thinks that playing smurfs for each other with mercury and reaching an "illegal" score of 4-0 had equal parts in his disqualification
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Canada7170 Posts
On December 14 2009 04:07 MorroW[MB] wrote:
hey im just saying what he said to me, im not saying i agree or anything at all for that matter. for all i know he could have been feeding me lies just felt like giving u guys some perspective and answers xd
Oh no, I wasn't attacking you. Sorry if it sounded like it.
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wow these guys are really dumb.
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Reason, your post is ridiculous. Wins in an irregular way, ie. cheating. Rather than apologize you basically insult all of TL reading your post thinking anyone is dumb enough to not see past that bullshit. Instead of blaming others just say that you didn't have the skill, time, effort needed to get in and apologize. It's not unfair that you had less time than others, it just means you don't deserve the spot as much as those people. And now you get what you actually deserve for cheating, getting disqualified, congratulations.
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lets do some of the polls over...
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xD wow Wouldn't be fair if you played Koreans? Then I guess IdrA and Ret got royally screwed because they played almost exclusively Koreans yet are in the top 10. Go q.q that you got caught cheating somewhere else. And if you have to dodge Koreans to get A-, then maybe you shouldn't be there in the first place.
It was listed in the rules and you broke them and got caught, so who's stupid the rules or you?
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On December 14 2009 03:12 Julmust wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 03:05 dshsdhk wrote:
i didnt create the acc, it is a friend acc, which was shared between 2 players, i just played a couple of games on that to warm up. you know who the REAL victims here are? [19:10:35] <IntoTheWow> Goody [19:10:40] <IntoTheWow> and RoX.Alf [19:10:43] <IntoTheWow> both had like [19:10:45] <IntoTheWow> 9500 points [19:10:48] <IntoTheWow> but cutoff was 9700 [19:10:51] <IntoTheWow> so they mass gamed [19:10:52] <IntoTheWow> lost [19:10:53] <IntoTheWow> raged [19:10:55] <IntoTheWow> cleared stats [19:10:57] <IntoTheWow> so sad [19:11:00] <IntoTheWow> both good manner players [19:11:04] <IntoTheWow> fucking abusers. I fully agree. They didnt abuse, they fought their way to their stats. Fuck you and your abusing.
This must be truly heartbreaking for them. Damn.
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wowowow i wake up and i find this drama
and by reading some of the abuser's posts you can really tell that they are truly, and sadly, stupid
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The point of the top 48 advancing is that the potential winner of the TSL could be in positions 1 - 48. Even if you include dodging, etc, you would hope the best, honest, player could at least achieve rank 48.
Once in, there are additional rounds to go through. People are cheating like the ladder is the TSL....all you have to do is make it to #48 guys.
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It strikes me as exceptionally greedy and self absorbed to be safely within the top 48 and still feel like cheating to get into the top 12 or what. Dudes if you're not top 12 you don't deserve to finish on that spot. Take the harder road and work for it instead. Atleast it's an honest way of playing.
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not.
People are saying that this is a dark day for the starcraft community etc and how TSL is not doing well because of it. But it seems to me that TSL is doing excellently because of the rules and the work I assume R1ch has done in conjunction with the crew. People try to abuse, they get banned. They don't get to play on in the tournament and the proof is conclusive. I think all of these things have been excellently handled by TL staff so far.
The alternative would have been that some people abused (maybe the same people) and didn't get found out. They kept on playing in the tournament because no one ever knew they abused and messed with the brackets / qualifiers etc.
I say Rock on TL! Keep banning those that feel cheating is ok.
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This is geting fucking disgusting. Fuck all you cheating bastereds.  ::
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Intothewannab ^ lol agree
Just sad for Dimaga though.. Meh
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On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It strikes me as exceptionally greedy and self absorbed to be safely within the top 48 and still feel like cheating to get into the top 12 or what. Dudes if you're not top 12 you don't deserve to finish on that spot. Take the harder road and work for it instead. Atleast it's an honest way of playing.
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not.
People are saying that this is a dark day for the starcraft community etc and how TSL is not doing well because of it. But it seems to me that TSL is doing excellently because of the rules and the work I assume R1ch has done in conjunction with the crew. People try to abuse, they get banned. They don't get to play on in the tournament and the proof is conclusive. I think all of these things have been excellently handled by TL staff so far.
The alternative would have been that some people abused (maybe the same people) and didn't get found out. They kept on playing in the tournament because no one ever knew they abused and messed with the brackets / qualifiers etc.
I say Rock on TL! Keep banning those that feel cheating is ok.
F91 will not play unless he can get TOP12
the trip from China to Taiwan might cost about 1000$
I dont understand why F91 play this tournament if he cant play many games T.T
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On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not.
Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules.
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No reason to cheat when you are good and dodging is bad also cuz you will have to face a good player later when you are qualified.
But I didn't expect so many players getting caught and all qualifiers should get checked no matter who they are.
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United States4991 Posts
On December 13 2009 23:13 Boblion wrote:
Will players get pts back for their losses vs abusers ?
No. The fact that the players abused doesn't mean the other games were fake or something. The players were DQed because they abused the ladder, not because they had some unfair advantage in any particular game vs opponents.
It is a regrettable decision that the DQs of players may have hurt the chances of others who thought the bar was higher than it was. We didn't deliberately wait to DQ these players (such as removing A2/Pomi/F91 earlier on), but rather most of the abuse happened near the very end of the ladder and thus we had no option (also, it takes some time to catch people abusing, since they're not exactly going to point out to us the games we should check, a process which is still going on).
On December 14 2009 02:35 Scooge wrote:
What was the reasoning behind the absolutely no smurf rule? Why not allow them to smurf, but send their real IDs to TL admin?
People were allowed to smurf, as long as they got the OK from us first. In the previous TSL someone (Skew? I forget who) did do that.
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United States12607 Posts
On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules.
What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12.
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On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 1.
now even more better
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Godamnit, you bastards. They deserve to be DQed.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12. Seriously.
Normally he wouldn't even have been allowed to play. We did him a favor by granting him an exception and then he abused...
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On December 14 2009 06:20 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12. Seriously. Normally he wouldn't even have been allowed to play. We did him a favor by granting him an exception and then he abused...
Wow, in that context it even seems like he should be detested by the community more than the rest of these people. Didn't remember that he had even made agreements with you guys to fly out to play to circumvent the no Chinese rule and then pulls this.
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On December 14 2009 02:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw I am currently accepting all fans who are now idol-less.
Onboard!
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On December 14 2009 06:20 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12. Seriously. Normally he wouldn't even have been allowed to play. We did him a favor by granting him an exception and then he abused...
tsl has no reason to bar him from playing outside of china
what's this favor BS?
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On December 14 2009 06:26 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 06:20 Carnac wrote:On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12. Seriously. Normally he wouldn't even have been allowed to play. We did him a favor by granting him an exception and then he abused... tsl has no reason to bar him from playing outside of china what's this favor BS? You don't even know what you're talking about -.-
We allowed him to play the ladder from China, because he assured us he'd play the qualifiers/ro16 TSL from outside of China.
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which is fair to me, you?
with his skills qualifier 2 or 3, top 48 or top 12 wouldn't matter, he'd make it. but he had to fly out for extended amount of time in the case of q2. this isn't a 2-3 day tourney you can jet out and be home like you never left it, this is weeks and weeks till tsl is over. How long was tsl1?
The circumstances change everything. He should be disqualified but not shit on by being on some public stoning list where everyone else plays comfortably from home. No sireee.
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United States12607 Posts
On December 14 2009 06:24 DrTJEckleburg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 06:20 Carnac wrote:On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12. Seriously. Normally he wouldn't even have been allowed to play. We did him a favor by granting him an exception and then he abused... Wow, in that context it even seems like he should be detested by the community more than the rest of these people. Didn't remember that he had even made agreements with you guys to fly out to play to circumvent the no Chinese rule and then pulls this.
Also don't forget that F91 owes a lot of his popularity outside of China to Liquibition, which TL invited him to play in and also paid him hundreds of dollars for winning.
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On December 14 2009 06:34 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 06:24 DrTJEckleburg wrote:On December 14 2009 06:20 Carnac wrote:On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12. Seriously. Normally he wouldn't even have been allowed to play. We did him a favor by granting him an exception and then he abused... Wow, in that context it even seems like he should be detested by the community more than the rest of these people. Didn't remember that he had even made agreements with you guys to fly out to play to circumvent the no Chinese rule and then pulls this. Also don't forget that F91 owes a lot of his popularity outside of China to Liquibition, which TL invited him to play in and also paid him hundreds of dollars for winning.
look, I dunno how views got so skewed
he got paid dollars for WINNING like anybody would get the purse for winning, how's that a favor AGAIN? liquibition invited him for playing at high level, he won and got some money. in my world that's called a fair n square.
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f91 either should never have participated tsl, or should have given up his tourneys in China. It was stupid of him to not realize how big a commitment being a TSLer means. In the end you cannot possible win it all, and end up screwing up everything.
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On December 14 2009 06:33 .risingdragoon wrote:
which is fair to me, you?
with his skills qualifier 2 or 3, top 48 or top 12 wouldn't matter, he'd make it. but he had to fly out for extended amount of time in the case of q2. this isn't a 2-3 day tourney you can jet out and be home like you never left it, this is weeks and weeks till tsl is over. How long was tsl1?
The circumstances change everything. He should be disqualified but not shit on by being on some public stoning list where everyone else plays comfortably from home. No sireee.
fairness doesn't even enter into it, if anything TL was overly fair to him by just granting him the ability to ladder while in China
he was given the sole exception and fucked it up by abusing in a tournament worth 22,000 dollars run by the same people that have invited him to their tournaments previously
he is trash
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United States12607 Posts
On December 14 2009 06:37 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 06:34 JWD wrote:On December 14 2009 06:24 DrTJEckleburg wrote:On December 14 2009 06:20 Carnac wrote:On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12. Seriously. Normally he wouldn't even have been allowed to play. We did him a favor by granting him an exception and then he abused... Wow, in that context it even seems like he should be detested by the community more than the rest of these people. Didn't remember that he had even made agreements with you guys to fly out to play to circumvent the no Chinese rule and then pulls this. Also don't forget that F91 owes a lot of his popularity outside of China to Liquibition, which TL invited him to play in and also paid him hundreds of dollars for winning. look, I dunno how views got so skewed he got paid dollars for WINNING like anybody would get the purse for winning, how's that a favor AGAIN?
wow
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On December 13 2009 20:59 Oystein wrote:
lol if this continue I just might have gotten in if had just quit at 9,3k.
Lol, maybe so. WTF people, there was so much fucking hype about dimaga and then he fucking cheats... WOW, what a let down.
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On December 14 2009 06:40 H wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 06:33 .risingdragoon wrote:
which is fair to me, you?
with his skills qualifier 2 or 3, top 48 or top 12 wouldn't matter, he'd make it. but he had to fly out for extended amount of time in the case of q2. this isn't a 2-3 day tourney you can jet out and be home like you never left it, this is weeks and weeks till tsl is over. How long was tsl1?
The circumstances change everything. He should be disqualified but not shit on by being on some public stoning list where everyone else plays comfortably from home. No sireee. fairness doesn't even enter into it, if anything TL was overly fair to him by just granting him the ability to ladder while in China he was given the sole exception and fucked it up by abusing in a tournament worth 22,000 dollars run by the same people that have invited him to their tournaments previously he is trash
True and he did cheat just like everyone else on the list but I am more accepting of his situation than anyone else. He HAD to make it to the top 12 because that was the only time he could be in Taiwan or wherever he was going. The rest of the people simply dont have ANY excuses since they were already in the top 48... But im not justifying anything.
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Some people here are freaking me out
And at the top is Reason
I never felt such a stronge urge to simply say '' FUCK YOU '' because thats exactly what I felt after reading your post/s
A simple sorry would have done it. Or '' it was stupid '', '' i regret it''
1) Most koreans dont fucking know you anymore and if they do they wont dodge
2) There are four times more qualiyfing without abusing than there are abusers
tell me how did they do the impossible when you well known Reason feared on the whole planet got dodged all the time and saw now other out..
Seriously.. I never knew excuses would piss me off that much but in this case I cant believe what you wrote.
I will stop here cause I dont want to risk a ban or something but Im lacking the words to describe what I felt after reading your posts.
Its one thing to do something bad and unfair but its a total different thing to come back and instead of being just sorry for it posting such ridicolous excuses..
wtf...
If anything all of those cheaters should feel so stupid. 3 Games less wouldnt have made a difference for yosh who was high in the A, Dimaga or Reason..
U have your right to feel stupid now but its SO unbelievable cheap to blame the tsl2 admins for not being able to implement a proper system which lead u to abusing.. Srry Reason thats just so fucking ridicolous ..
In the end I have to say: I didnt really care about guys like RiboRibo or Vasilisk, barely heard of em..
But Dimaga and yosh abusing is something I would have never ever thought.. And A2 abusing as well.. Its just so unneeded..
If anything it was THE FEAR of not doing good enough ..
good night all..
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On December 14 2009 06:52 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Some people here are freaking me out
And at the top is Reason
I never felt such a stronge urge to simply say '' FUCK YOU '' because thats exactly what I felt after reading your post/s
A simple sorry would have done it. Or '' it was stupid '', '' i regret it''
1) Most koreans dont fucking know you anymore and if they do they wont dodge
2) There are four times more qualiyfing without abusing than there are abusers
tell me how did they do the impossible when you well known Reason feared on the whole planet got dodged all the time and saw now other out..
Seriously.. I never knew excuses would piss me off that much but in this case I cant believe what you wrote.
I will stop here cause I dont want to risk a ban or something but Im lacking the words to describe what I felt after reading your posts.
Its one thing to do something bad and unfair but its a total different thing to come back and instead of being just sorry for it posting such ridicolous excuses..
wtf...
If anything all of those cheaters should feel so stupid. 3 Games less wouldnt have made a difference for yosh who was high in the A, Dimaga or Reason..
U have your right to feel stupid now but its SO unbelievable cheap to blame the tsl2 admins for not being able to implement a proper system which lead u to abusing.. Srry Reason thats just so fucking ridicolous ..
In the end I have to say: I didnt really care about guys like RiboRibo or Vasilisk, barely heard of em..
But Dimaga and yosh abusing is something I would have never ever thought.. And A2 abusing as well.. Its just so unneeded..
If anything it was THE FEAR of not doing good enough ..
good night all..
Who the hell are you going off on? You didn't quote anyone and you keep saying "you" which is making me think you're talking about me since i posted before you.
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^it's reason silly
well reason coulda said sorry first then go into his reasons (lol). it's the same to him probly but it's a big difference for everyone else I guess.
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On December 14 2009 06:55 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 06:52 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Some people here are freaking me out
And at the top is Reason
I never felt such a stronge urge to simply say '' FUCK YOU '' because thats exactly what I felt after reading your post/s
A simple sorry would have done it. Or '' it was stupid '', '' i regret it''
1) Most koreans dont fucking know you anymore and if they do they wont dodge
2) There are four times more qualiyfing without abusing than there are abusers
tell me how did they do the impossible when you well known Reason feared on the whole planet got dodged all the time and saw now other out..
Seriously.. I never knew excuses would piss me off that much but in this case I cant believe what you wrote.
I will stop here cause I dont want to risk a ban or something but Im lacking the words to describe what I felt after reading your posts.
Its one thing to do something bad and unfair but its a total different thing to come back and instead of being just sorry for it posting such ridicolous excuses..
wtf...
If anything all of those cheaters should feel so stupid. 3 Games less wouldnt have made a difference for yosh who was high in the A, Dimaga or Reason..
U have your right to feel stupid now but its SO unbelievable cheap to blame the tsl2 admins for not being able to implement a proper system which lead u to abusing.. Srry Reason thats just so fucking ridicolous ..
In the end I have to say: I didnt really care about guys like RiboRibo or Vasilisk, barely heard of em..
But Dimaga and yosh abusing is something I would have never ever thought.. And A2 abusing as well.. Its just so unneeded..
If anything it was THE FEAR of not doing good enough ..
good night all..
Who the hell are you going off on? You didn't quote anyone and you keep saying "you" which is making me think you're talking about me since i posted before you.
Clearly he's adressing Reason, as he mentions at the top of his post.
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Obviously im talking about reason here..
I find it just utterly ridicolous that he's blaming the tsl2 organization crew
Or his fame ..
good lord.. I will stop here or Im risking a ban..
its all fine.. just sad that many good names are now dqed..
=(
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On December 14 2009 06:13 HnR)Insane wrote:
People were allowed to smurf, as long as they got the OK from us first. In the previous TSL someone (Skew? I forget who) did do that.
Of the top 16, I think ret (TSL.Dezmund) and Skew (BoXeRz) were playing on assigned smurfs, if I recall correctly.
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On December 13 2009 21:18 MaD4tehwin wrote:
so in numbers about 23% of top48 players cheated, kinda sad.
A better way to think of it is, that out of all the players that cheated, 9 got into the top48.
+ Show Spoiler +Because the players who cheated weren't actually top48.
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lol at reasons reason. If u would have told admins of a smurf and talked about flag and all they would have probably just let u create an outside one. Don't argue anymore man there's no reason too as once something drops everyones just going to be unwilling to listen because evidence is there. Anywho sad that this happened
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GreEny K, Puhil is talking to ReasoN, as you would see in the top of the post (I assume you are connecting the name with the word ).
I must say that it's a very strong reaction for Phil, and I certainly do not feel that way myself. ReasoN admits that what he did was bad. If anything, his posts helps us understand the motives behind him doing this abuse, even if he is just posting out of frustration.
I'm not sure TSL admins could really do anything about the problem either, and as I explained earlier I think it's more a matter of the mentality that people show. Rather than trying to make excuses or blindly criticize the admins, I see ReasoN's post as him venting his frustration. Its true that he doesn't seem very apologetic, but as he explained, it seems that he justified the abuse to himself due to how things played out. Just like Dimaga seems clueless about the effects and importance of his actions (unless it's just bad English), ReasoN's due seem to feel any heavy guilt, and therefore prioritizes talking about what he finds the most important topics. It's like I explained earlier, people don't take online events seriously. It's something else you can sense and feel that there are "real" people involved. I don't think it's the love for a sport that means that keeps most ahtletes from taking sterioids (example used someone earlier in the topic), it's the social aspect; the people.
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Reason is one of those guys who are responsible for the shit happens to Goody.
Goody is one a well mannerd known guy and just cuz of those abusers he wont play TSL.
Thats what makes me sick and i think thats why phil got so much anger...
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On December 14 2009 07:17 Asjo wrote:GreEny K, Puhil is talking to ReasoN, as you would see in the top of the post (I assume you are connecting the name with the word ). I must say that it's a very strong reaction for Phil, and I certainly do not feel that way myself. ReasoN admits that what he did was bad. If anything, his posts helps us understand the motives behind him doing this abuse, even if he is just posting out of frustration. I'm not sure TSL admins could really do anything about the problem either, and as I explained earlier I think it's more a matter of the mentality that people show. Rather than trying to make excuses or blindly criticize the admins, I see ReasoN's post as him venting his frustration. Its true that he doesn't seem very apologetic, but as he explained, it seems that he justified the abuse to himself due to how things played out. Just like Dimaga seems clueless about the effects and importance of his actions (unless it's just bad English), ReasoN's due seem to feel any heavy guilt, and therefore prioritizes talking about what he finds the most important topics. It's like I explained earlier, people don't take online events seriously. It's something else you can sense and feel that there are "real" people involved. I don't think it's the love for a sport that means that keeps most ahtletes from taking sterioids (example used someone earlier in the topic), it's the social aspect; the people.
I am pretty sure that Dimaga was fully aware that he was doing something illegal and knew of the concequences it could have. He might be an abuser, but someone who plays SC on that level definitely is intelligent enough to know this.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
What Chill said a few pages ago is just so so true. There was never any reason to resort to cheating in the TSL ladder. If you had a problem with finding games because people were dodging you - we had provisions set up to deal with that situation. If you had simply contacted us you wouldn't have felt like you were at a disadvantage and you would have been able to game fairly. But no, instead you decided to cheat. It baffles me really.
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Norway28595 Posts
On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
you are a retarded fucking clown. considering how you have been "retired" for "years" (that is, playing slightly less for a while), your fame is not really all that great anymore - and it wasn't up on par with players like say, mondragon, ret, idra, white-ra before either. yet, these players all legitimately managed to get in the top 12. mondragon through playing nonkoreans (he had no problems getting games despite being considered much better than you, and much more famous), the others through playing koreans.
your post is riddled with moronic exaggerations, in fact the only aspect of your post with any semblance of truth to it is this : "Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit," - and here you somehow manage to greatly understate your wrongdoings. you would have qualified legitimately but then you abuse to get yourself disqualified. this isn't "doing shit", this is being a top class retard.
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On December 14 2009 07:28 Gonozal wrote:
Reason is one of those guys who are responsible for the shit happens to Goody.
Goody is one a well mannerd known guy and just cuz of those abusers he wont play TSL.
Thats what makes me sick and i think thats why phil got so much anger...
Are you referring to the fact that Goody played even though he would have had enough points? And that Goody then lost some games as reset? And you are blaming ReasoN for this due to the fact that he had more points?
First off, that seems kind of speculative. If the 11 players who abused for a few matches had not done this, they might have played straight up and gotten the points that way instead. Also, if they had not gotten the points, someone else might have instead. It's a very strange "what if" scenario to try to set up. The fact remains that if Goody had not reset and had kept on playing, he would likely have qualified.
Second off, I don't like that fact the it's the people with the right amount of points who should qualify. Obviously, it's the people who are best would ideally qualify. So, if people are able to keep playing and still be on top of the ladder, they are good enough, and therefore they qualify. I don't really like that people have to be so tactical about it, stopping at a specific level for the risk that they might not do well enough if they keep on playing. If they didn't do well enough, they weren't good enough.
So, I think you can be mad at them just because you think their acts is despicable. Honestly, though, there is not much point in being made at them because another player played an lost. That's fair and square.
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On December 14 2009 07:33 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 07:17 Asjo wrote:GreEny K, Puhil is talking to ReasoN, as you would see in the top of the post (I assume you are connecting the name with the word ). I must say that it's a very strong reaction for Phil, and I certainly do not feel that way myself. ReasoN admits that what he did was bad. If anything, his posts helps us understand the motives behind him doing this abuse, even if he is just posting out of frustration. I'm not sure TSL admins could really do anything about the problem either, and as I explained earlier I think it's more a matter of the mentality that people show. Rather than trying to make excuses or blindly criticize the admins, I see ReasoN's post as him venting his frustration. Its true that he doesn't seem very apologetic, but as he explained, it seems that he justified the abuse to himself due to how things played out. Just like Dimaga seems clueless about the effects and importance of his actions (unless it's just bad English), ReasoN's due seem to feel any heavy guilt, and therefore prioritizes talking about what he finds the most important topics. It's like I explained earlier, people don't take online events seriously. It's something else you can sense and feel that there are "real" people involved. I don't think it's the love for a sport that means that keeps most ahtletes from taking sterioids (example used someone earlier in the topic), it's the social aspect; the people. I am pretty sure that Dimaga was fully aware that he was doing something illegal and knew of the concequences it could have. He might be an abuser, but someone who plays SC on that level definitely is intelligent enough to know this.
I guess I was not very clear in that statement. When I talked about the implication of what he was doing, I didn't mean breaking the rules. I mean the fact that it is something significant that affects him as well as all of the people following and organizing the event. According to what mOrrow says, it sounds like he doesn't understand it and all, and only thinks about what it means to him, which seems to be simply the inability to continue in the tournament. As said, though, it might just be his English langauge playing a trick on him.
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DIMAGA :| I am disappoint.
Imagine if they'd investigated the first TSL like this one! Probably would've been at least as many DQs
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simpleset answer of them all, too all the cheaters who were being "ladder dodged"
Idra made first without cheating, and he made it playing koreans
Long story short, for ppl who were being "ladder dodged", you had solutions not involving cheating, contacting tl would b the best, but also, you could have simply played koreans who have no idea who you are.
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Its only a matter of time until artosis sits down with ret & idra to talk about the issue, right ?
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On December 14 2009 07:51 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Its only a matter of time until artosis sits down with ret & idra to talk about the issue, right ?
LOL then IdrA can slam Stylish
and Ret can be like "I just wanted a nice good tourny"
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On December 14 2009 07:51 gk_ender wrote:
simpleset answer of them all, too all the cheaters who were being "ladder dodged"
Idra made first without cheating, and he made it playing koreans
Long story short, for ppl who were being "ladder dodged", you had solutions not involving cheating, contacting tl would b the best, but also, you could have simply played koreans who have no idea who you are.
You don't really expect them to compare themselves with IdrA, do you? They surely aren't do that either, they are comparing themselves to weaker players who made it into the top48 by dodging. Idra, White-Ra and ret are players of another caliber, active players with time for the game, who are leading the foreign scene. They are not complaining about having to face tougher competition that the rest of the ladder because they can deal with it. And if they were complaining, IdrA and ret were allowed to play as the only people from Korea, so this exception already means that they are getting special treatment.
I'm not saying they are justified in what they did, just that it's a bad comparison and argument.
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wow, i am surprised so many of the top foreign players are such idiots. How could they think they could get away with such a retarded form of cheating. I am baffled at the sheer stupidity coming from these players.
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Not only could individual players have asked to be able to smurf, but if there were 8-10 players doing so (perhaps the 8-10 abusers eh?), it would have been even more difficult for everyone to guess who they were. Every year there are more and more good foreigners, so it's not terribly surprising to see new names in the top 48.
Having said this, it seems like there was a lot more race and map 'dodging' than player dodging in this ladder.
It's hard to take anyone seriously about this when someone like Mondragon doesn't smurf and still makes the top 12. I mean, when he plays a ZvP it has to be the absolute most anyone in this tournament is affected by not smurfing. And yet, he still managed to play plenty of ZvPs against top foreign protosses. Imagine that.
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Vasilisk should just be permabanned from TL events, first the iccup hacking and now ladder abuse. it's pretty clear that he'll never play fair
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If you can grant F91 permission to play qualifications from within China, then why not RO16? What difference does this really make then? May as well make an exception for him as a whole?
Granting F91 special participation rights has nothing to do with him abusing the ladder. You are just sour on a personal level there. He should not be shunned any more than any other "abuser".
Either way, he abused. DQ is fair. gg
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United States4991 Posts
On December 14 2009 08:37 timmeh wrote:
If you can grant F91 permission to play qualifications from within China, then why not RO16? What difference does this really make then? May as well make an exception for him as a whole?
Granting F91 special participation rights has nothing to do with him abusing the ladder. You are just sour on a personal level there. He should not be shunned any more than any other "abuser".
Either way, he abused. DQ is fair. gg
F91 could only have played the ladder from within China. Everything after that, he would've had to be somewhere else.
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On December 14 2009 08:37 timmeh wrote:
If you can grant F91 permission to play qualifications from within China, then why not RO16? What difference does this really make then? May as well make an exception for him as a whole?
Granting F91 special participation rights has nothing to do with him abusing the ladder. You are just sour on a personal level there. He should not be shunned any more than any other "abuser".
Either way, he abused. DQ is fair. gg
China has major lag issues; whilst playing the ladder from China, with lag, was possible (as there is a lower level of significance and fewer people are affected by the issue), having lag during broadcasted Ro16 matches and beyond would have been unacceptable for viewers and other players.
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On December 14 2009 06:16 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 05:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On December 14 2009 05:48 StarBrift wrote:
It's kinda wierd how some of these people fucked themselves over a 100 times more than anyone else. A2, F91 and Dimaga WOULD have qualified atleast in the top 48 regardless. Now they face the disgrace of a DQ and the prospect of being shunned by the entire community for a long time. I wonder if they any of them feels like a better seed into the tournament or whatever was worth all that. I'm guessing not. Don't put f91 in there, he at least was put in a unique situation by tsl rules. What? Of course F91 belongs in this list, he cheated just like the rest. Every player on the TSL ladder wanted to be in the top 12.
I read it as "don't put F91 in there because he wouldn't have qualified" but reading some of the later posts by .risingdragoon, I think I was wrong
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On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded.
So basically TSL2 Failed because some faggots decided to abuse and get caught?
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so will these guys be banned from future TSL/TL events?
(emphasis on future)
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On December 14 2009 00:02 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
Coming from you that means very little to me. I was good friends with several of the top coaches and managers. I've been to many a clan war and I'm telling you these guys wouldn't win this tournament. A2 and Dimaga might have made the top 16, or Round of 8 but they most certainly wouldn't win it. I am very familar with both of their styles and I know what potential they have. For example, A2's Terran has always been very suspect against Zerg. Ret has a ridiculously good record against him. Right about now, I would start talking about F91 as A2 and F91 were teammates on MYM., but it's irrelevant because F91 already got caught.
Now then substandard, exactly who are you to say these guys would actually win it? Matter of fact, did you even say that. No, you didn't. All you said is they would reach the top ten. Did I dismiss that? NO. Now, ask yourself the question again? Would these two players win the entire thing? Simple answer: NO. They are long shots.
Verbatim: NO. They would not win this tournament.
EDIT: Bifur, coming from you that means little to me. Don't take what I said out of context. I know A2 almost as well as you and just because you are his countryman (we know you Russians have a great sense of pride, you don't have to preach it) and fought many a war with him doesn't mean you can negate facts. He hasn't played solidly in a while. Hell, the kid has been on and off for ages. When he's on his A game he is a very, very good player but no one other than his fellow countrymen and a few other fan boys would expect him to win this thing because the competition has risen tenfold since A2's hay day.
With that said, as much as I would looove to say who is going to win this thing. I don't. But, I can give you a shortlist of 5 to 8 players who most likely would.
Last year I chose NonY over JF. Close but no cigar. I was very close selecting my fellow countryman and it wasn't out of blind faith, but because I was quite familiar with him as well.
Now, then sir. What do you have to say to that?
you are a tool
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On December 14 2009 00:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote:
That would be great news Naz but until then I'll stick around waiting for the news post with TSL3 with a bigger cash prize and more sponsors.
No one knows what the future holds, but you cannot deny all this abuse holds well for the community.
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Considering you haven't really been around the clan leagues for such a long time I don't think you should be one to judge bro.
I'll end it at that.
ban the cunt?
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I don't have the strength right now to read through this thread.I just wanted to register my dismay about this whole situation.
Some players that I had really been looking forward to seeing in the Ro48 onward got DQed. That's balls. That was a very shortsighted, I want to say even selfish thing to do. Yosh? Dimaga? To say nothing of Advokate and F91. I'm not mad at you guys at all. Just depressed. And god damn it you were all in it. You had this shit made.
The quality of the tournament suffers from these losses. The spirit of 100% undiluted, compulsive-F5-on-the-Ladder-Standings euphoria that this tournament had been bringing me over the past few weeks began to taper. I feel like something was stolen. And I feel like the punishment for the people who stole it is the theft itself, which is like some entirely novel species of suck-assery.
*note: I respect the administration of the TSL for making these calls. Not a word to say against them. This tournament is a beautiful thing, really is. I just feel bummed, and I wanted to bitch about it in a sphere where someone might comiserate.*
**note: I am sure once the Ro48 starts, my spirits will pick up. I still got Drone, iNc, ret, Mondy, IdrA, etc., etc., et al.**
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To be honest, the potential of having entertaining games just dropped by 50%. I don't even know if I will watch it or not. DAMN CHEATERS!
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On December 14 2009 09:36 Xiphos wrote:
To be honest, the potential of having entertaining games just dropped by 50%. I don't even know if I will watch it or not. DAMN CHEATERS!
Personally, I don't enjoy watching cheaters so the fact that they are banned is good news to me but to the point there are still 48 awesome players in this tournament and I for one am looking forward to watching as many matches as I can between now and the end.
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Wow I wish I would of kept playing and not stopped. So many dirty players.
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On December 14 2009 09:42 Future wrote:
Wow I wish I would of kept playing and not stopped. So many dirty players.
I wish I woulda stopped at 9560. I'd have been in. I'm a fucking retard. Fuck.
And yes ban that Vasilisk twat from everything for at least year... hacking then abusing in a span of 2 ICCup seasons is unacceptable.
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Who cares about the abusers, we have an awesome tournament to come up with amazing players, Ret, Idra, White Ra, Nyoken, Mana , Sen , Koll ect. , Bunch of dark horses , new players to the scene and most importantly, a lot of fun
Lets stop going "Fox News" on what happen with the abusers, lets let the admins handel it in their own way, and lets us focus just on following this kick ass tournament ;o
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I personally don't care about the people that got banned. Sure they were famous players but they cheated so fuck them. There are so many more better and more-fun-to-watch players im looking forward to. TSL = The shit
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On December 14 2009 09:58 zEroMiCro wrote:
Who cares about the abusers, we have an awesome tournament to come up with amazing players, Ret, Idra, White Ra, Nyoken, Mana , Sen , Koll ect. , Bunch of dark horses , new players to the scene and most importantly, a lot of fun
Lets stop going "Fox News" on what happen with the abusers, lets let the admins handel it in their own way, and lets us focus just on following this kick ass tournament ;o
I'm agree, let's focuse on play-off matches
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 14 2009 09:58 zEroMiCro wrote:
Who cares about the abusers, we have an awesome tournament to come up with amazing players, Ret, Idra, White Ra, Nyoken, Mana , Sen , Koll ect. , Bunch of dark horses , new players to the scene and most importantly, a lot of fun
Lets stop going "Fox News" on what happen with the abusers, lets let the admins handel it in their own way, and lets us focus just on following this kick ass tournament ;o
This.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106047¤tpage=172
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i would just like to say to those who said "oh, they wouldn't have won anyways" that some people play not to win, but just to be a part of the thing. Of course, they'll try to win the whole thing, but just being a part of this great event is an achievement itself. That's why so many people play the ladder (regular TL members) even though they know they won't make top 48. They tried their best, but knew they wouldn't make it. However, just being a part of it all was great in itself.
and of course, upsets happen. so it's not necessarily idra vs ret in the finals.
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hi,
was stupid decision and I regret it, to explain it I just must say that I didnt had the time to finish the ladder since I came away in weekend and decided to play TuZeR with his smurf. I just regret it was mostly due to a lack of time since I was losing 3 days of the ladder, I tryed and I failed.It's deserved. I dont search escuses or anything just want to apologize to every players and the organizers of this tour.
Have fun to everyone and good luck to the players.
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so many respected top foreigners being put on the list-of-d-bags in this TSL .
So sad...
Dimaga
A2
Sarens
Yosh
wtf is going on?
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On December 14 2009 10:17 SarenS wrote:
hi,
was stupid decision and I regret it, to explain it I just must say that I didnt had the time to finish the ladder since I came away in weekend and decided to play TuZeR with his smurf. I just regret it was mostly due to a lack of time since I was losing 3 days of the ladder, I tryed and I failed.It's deserved. I dont search escuses or anything just want to apologize to every players and the organizers of this tour.
Have fun to everyone and good luck to the players.
at least not a bunch of smilie faces in this apology...
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On December 14 2009 09:19 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded. So basically TSL2 Failed because some faggots decided to abuse and get caught?
how the fuck can you fail so bad at paraphrasing. try to be a productive poster and respond to the issue he puts forth as the main problem with tsl2: after a certain point, everyone dodges to save their own rating and it becomes impossible to get a game. no one cares how you feel about cheating as such opinions have been expressed by more than enough spectators, admins, players and the cheaters themselves
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holy shit...
everybody is cheating?
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8748 Posts
On December 14 2009 10:55 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 09:19 arb wrote:On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded. So basically TSL2 Failed because some faggots decided to abuse and get caught? the main problem with tsl2: after a certain point, everyone dodges to save their own rating and it becomes impossible to get a game.
This is simply inaccurate. There is a constant presence of non-TSL players on iccup who rarely dodge. And the TSL players themselves were playing each other to the very end anyway. Look at match lists.
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On December 14 2009 11:07 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 10:55 d_so wrote:On December 14 2009 09:19 arb wrote:On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded. So basically TSL2 Failed because some faggots decided to abuse and get caught? the main problem with tsl2: after a certain point, everyone dodges to save their own rating and it becomes impossible to get a game. This is simply inaccurate. There is a constant presence of non-TSL players on iccup who rarely dodge. And the TSL players themselves were playing each other to the very end anyway. Look at match lists.
But of course noone would EVER have the balls to play reason...
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How about a wildcart tournament?
Grab all the people who where borderline, maybe 8, and do a battle royale for a special spot similar to what happens when a korean goes to the army. AKA for all the massgamers at the last second or reset stats ?
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Thank goodness some of the players have the balls to admit that what they did was wrong and be manner about it such as SarenS instead of douching out like Reason. i can understand and forgive an abuser for at least being honest about it, but never someone crying like a bitch after they got caught and blaming the organizers of the TSL.
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On December 14 2009 10:17 SarenS wrote:
hi,
was stupid decision and I regret it, to explain it I just must say that I didnt had the time to finish the ladder since I came away in weekend and decided to play TuZeR with his smurf. I just regret it was mostly due to a lack of time since I was losing 3 days of the ladder, I tryed and I failed.It's deserved. I dont search escuses or anything just want to apologize to every players and the organizers of this tour.
Have fun to everyone and good luck to the players.
Did you think you deserved to be in the top48 and got denied just by having not enough time?
Honestly these are really low motives! At least you phrased an excuse without excusing yourself -saving a last bit of honor.
I am honestly pissed with people feeling to have the right to decide who deserves to be in the TSL - i mean both the abusers and their "fanboys"! Who are you to decide that dedication is worth less than (partly subjective) ability?
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lol, people know none of them are actually sorry for abusing right?
They`re only sorry for getting caught.
There`s probably also other abusers that aren`t caught. They could easily ask their friends to give them free wins. As long as the IP isn`t the same as anyone in TSL there`s no way for them to get caught.
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wish i knew so many D-bags where going to get banned... becasue i made a bad call.. tryed to win 1 more game to make sure i was going to be safe becasue the points were going up so fast.. then went on a sick slump ^_^ and bye bye me in tsl~
anyways sad to see so many "respectable" non koreans have to result to cheating .. what are you guys thinking.. and better yet.. making excueses for HAVING TO CHEAT? what a load of crap!
shame on you all.
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There should be a special mini-tournament for spots number 49-60 and all the cheaters. Whoever is left alive gets a spot on the TSL. Make it interesting .
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On December 14 2009 11:53 hacpee wrote:There should be a special mini-tournament for spots number 49-60 and all the cheaters. Whoever is left alive gets a spot on the TSL. Make it interesting .
fuck you - giving cheaters another chance to qualify for the TSL - WTF?!
I cant see how sooo many people seem to think cheating is "not soo bad"...
Doping/Cheating is destroying professional sports!
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Dimaga... No!!! Awwww. Well, at least the admins are on the ball...
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I feel bad for the admins having now to go through all of mamon's games.
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KAWAII IF U ABUSED I'LL BREAK UR BALLS OFF AND DROP THEM FOR U UNDERSTOOD?
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On December 14 2009 10:17 SarenS wrote:
hi,
was stupid decision and I regret it, to explain it I just must say that I didnt had the time to finish the ladder since I came away in weekend and decided to play TuZeR with his smurf. I just regret it was mostly due to a lack of time since I was losing 3 days of the ladder, I tryed and I failed.It's deserved. I dont search escuses or anything just want to apologize to every players and the organizers of this tour.
Have fun to everyone and good luck to the players.
What a pathetic excuse, as if having more time also means that you would've made it for sure, such arrogance.
Here's an idea, if you're actually sorry maybe you should leave out the bullshit. Yeah we're all real sorry for you that you were too busy taking a fucking vacation to make the ladder lol.
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On December 14 2009 11:07 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 10:55 d_so wrote:On December 14 2009 09:19 arb wrote:On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded. So basically TSL2 Failed because some faggots decided to abuse and get caught? the main problem with tsl2: after a certain point, everyone dodges to save their own rating and it becomes impossible to get a game. This is simply inaccurate. There is a constant presence of non-TSL players on iccup who rarely dodge. And the TSL players themselves were playing each other to the very end anyway. Look at match lists.
those non-TSLers who rarely dodge are for the most part koreans of whom he addresses in his post.
i don't think it's as easy as saying something is "simply inaccurate" when you look at players like F91 who complained about the same thing and felt they had to resort to cheating to gain points. Maybe if time isn't an issue it is possible to get games.
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On December 14 2009 12:44 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 11:07 Liquid`NonY wrote:On December 14 2009 10:55 d_so wrote:On December 14 2009 09:19 arb wrote:On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded. So basically TSL2 Failed because some faggots decided to abuse and get caught? the main problem with tsl2: after a certain point, everyone dodges to save their own rating and it becomes impossible to get a game. This is simply inaccurate. There is a constant presence of non-TSL players on iccup who rarely dodge. And the TSL players themselves were playing each other to the very end anyway. Look at match lists. those non-TSLers who rarely dodge are for the most part koreans of whom he addresses in his post. i don't think it's as easy as saying something is "simply inaccurate" when you look at players like F91 who complained about the same thing and felt they had to resort to cheating to gain points. Maybe if time isn't an issue it is possible to get games.
Firstly F91 was offered to use a smurf account, why he denied this but then chose to cheat instead is just beyond me.
And the thing is, if you are one of the best foreign 48 players, you HAD ENOUGH time, and if people who might be a bit worse than you skillwise but put in more time then they deserve that spot and you dont.
Also why would you pick F91 as a special case, he's also just one of the cheaters and he reported about his problems just AFTER he got caught.
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I wonder if there'll be more
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On December 14 2009 12:23 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 10:17 SarenS wrote:
hi,
was stupid decision and I regret it, to explain it I just must say that I didnt had the time to finish the ladder since I came away in weekend and decided to play TuZeR with his smurf. I just regret it was mostly due to a lack of time since I was losing 3 days of the ladder, I tryed and I failed.It's deserved. I dont search escuses or anything just want to apologize to every players and the organizers of this tour.
Have fun to everyone and good luck to the players. What a pathetic excuse, as if having more time also means that you would've made it for sure, such arrogance. Here's an idea, if you're actually sorry maybe you should leave out the bullshit. Yeah we're all real sorry for you that you were too busy taking a fucking vacation to make the ladder lol.
he didn't say it was an excuse. he's explaining why he cheated.
honestly, it's not like these abusers were scum of the earth just waiting to flex their evil muscles. i'd imagine most of their stories will be similar to Sarens - something put them at some sort of inconvenience or disadvantage, making the temptation to cheat hard to resist.
Cheating in something like this is not something i could do - i find their explanations interesting and enlightening.
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F91 didn't get caught, he admitted when asked about it. F91 is truly the only one who has a legit complaints of being dodged as all of TSL avoided him because of lag and maybe skill as well. A deadly combo that no one is to blame for.
It made it a very hard ladder for him, harder than for the others, but F91 and Ash were well aware and informed about this in advance of the ladder. We all knew this was going to be the case for him before he joined so there was nothing new there. When offered half-way to use a smurf he declined because it wasn't needed. They said it would be no problem getting top 12 playing vs Koreans and it seemed like that was going to hold true till F91 stopped playing.
Near the end they requested to smurf but with so little time left we denied the request because this close to the deadline we felt it wouldn't be fair to opponents not to be aware of who they were facing, as losing 1 or 2 games could make a huge difference on the final 2 days.
None of this should ever be an excuse to abuse. The only people who really get dodged are the ones good enough to beat all the Koreans (F91, Ret, Idra, White-ra). Not TSL-Reason don't make me laugh. Being good enough to be dodged means you are good enough to make it regardless, unless you refuse to put sufficient time in.
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hahahahaha
edit: also, i was looking through the match lists of the top qualifiers. I find it absolutely hilarious how few games are played against koreans. it's so, so obvious that everyone was dodging and being pussies once they got high ranks.
there are obvious exceptions, like White-ra, who has literally 15 or 20 times the amount of games vs koreans compared to the mediocre players that dodged. What a hero.
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United States42234 Posts
On December 14 2009 13:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
F91 didn't get caught, he admitted when asked about it. F91 is truly the only one who has a legit complaints of being dodged as all of TSL avoided him because of lag and maybe skill as well. A deadly combo that no one is to blame for.
It made it a very hard ladder for him, harder than for the others, but F91 and Ash were well aware and informed about this in advance of the ladder. We all knew this was going to be the case for him before he joined so there was nothing new there. When offered half-way to use a smurf he declined because it wasn't needed. They said it would be no problem getting top 12 playing vs Koreans and it seemed like that was going to hold true till F91 stopped playing.
Near the end they requested to smurf but with so little time left we denied the request because this close to the deadline we felt it wouldn't be fair to opponents not to be aware of who they were facing, as losing 1 or 2 games could make a huge difference on the final 2 days.
None of this should ever be an excuse to abuse. The only people who really get dodged are the ones good enough to beat all the Koreans (F91, Ret, Idra, White-ra). Not TSL-Reason don't make me laugh. Being good enough to be dodged means you are good enough to make it regardless, unless you refuse to put sufficient time in.
On December 12 2009 06:33 ret wrote:
Admins should check out the games between Ipromiseu and F91.
On December 12 2009 07:02 Ash wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2009 06:39 ret wrote:
I'm not kidding. I saw estro players play iccup against IpromiseU all the time. And saw reps of him. He is Chinese and protoss 100% ( said so in multiple games) and f91 just got 3 really short games vs his terran, so it can't really be any more obvious. Highly amusing. :D I'm not sure if hes chinese but I've just asked F91 personally if he knows that guy and f91 denied. I'll get replays from him later but I don't think hes stupid enough to cheat on two 3 mins games.
F91 was caught by ret, lied about it, realised there was no way his lie was gonna hold up and then admitted it. That's not quite the same as admitting it in my book. That's more like damage limitation after lying fails.
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Getting 'caught' is a lot more than being suspected of something. There's clearly a difference between admitting it before proof and waiting it out to see if you can fool the admins. From our side as admins, I can tell you we definitely appreciate it and would encourage others to do the same. But unfortunately that's a pipedream since most of them would rather run with it till the end.
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United States42234 Posts
He got a Protoss player to offrace as Terran without transferring the stats to a new account (like all the other abusers did) so it was 100% clear that the guy who had always been Protoss was offracing vs F91. I'd say he could be pretty sure he wasn't fooling admins.
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You understand how incredibly thin that argument is I assume.
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United States42234 Posts
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me.
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in playing the ladder, lots of people cheat. expect around 50-60%. most don't get caught. people shouldn't act like these are breaking news.
just relax and wait for the final ranking, jeez.
what's all the fuss.
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On December 14 2009 14:22 Crt wrote:
in playing the ladder, lots of people cheat. expect around 50-60%. most don't get caught. people shouldn't act like these are breaking news.
just relax and wait for the final ranking, jeez.
what's all the fuss. That's just... not even true at all.
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On December 14 2009 02:12 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 02:02 dshsdhk wrote:
Well, I'm ReasoN and I'm posting to clarify one thing, that TSL2 could have been one of the best online events of all time, if there weren't some extremely idiot rules, like forbidding smurfs, obviously the talented and famous players had a disvantage , especially those who were able to get excellent stats, and we, that did that, were praticaly dodged and ignored of the ladder, just in the most important fase (B+, A- above), with that we were unable or delayed pretty bad of getting a better rank (i didnt have 6hours per day to find people to play), and our unique solution would be playing with koreans (and that woudlnt be fair).
After spending hours trying to get games and being dodged and ignored by 99% of players, we got really in despair, and without thinking of the consequences we try to get some wins in a irregular way, which really hasn't changed anything in my situation (and the other tops that did the same). I even had classified myself by my own merits even without those wins. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that what we did was right, we did shit, but in my point of view, many of the other players had done too, like avoiding players with good stats, or spamming games on just one matchup like i saw some guys doing. (B+ A- only zerg msg for example...)
F91, Yosh, A2, Dimaga, ReasoN, Sarens
This list shows the total TSL2 fail in these requirements, players in this category with 80%++ win percentage with indisputable level were obligated to cheat for moving up in rank, because they were getting hard time to find games, u guys should reflect on what happend in this TSL2, and improve the rules for the next one, im retired since 2007 and i just came back to play this last tournament before quit this game definitely, sad that this shit had to happen, at least i had great time beating some players that are pretty active and who thinks that they are TOPS, and then they get raped by a retired player, i can quit this game satisfacted, peace all.
TSL2 = DODGER LADDER, congrats to the dodgers, they succeeded. Show nested quote +No smurfing. For most players aiming to qualify for the TSL, there will be no doubt as to which ID to use. If you are unsure, use your most recognizable ID or your forum username. If you believe that your chances of qualifying will be severely hampered by using your real I.D. you may contact a TSL staff member to apply for an exemption. A...huh. Alright.
lol XD owned. I knew I read that rule somewhere. There are absolutely no excuses for cheating.
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On December 14 2009 13:49 KwarK wrote:
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me.
First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either.
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On December 13 2009 20:57 Guybrush wrote:What. 11 DQs so far, and still counting! This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable! Sarens Dimaga So many respected players being dirty.
"This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable! " WSOP Norman Chad quote?
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On December 14 2009 14:49 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 20:57 Guybrush wrote:What. 11 DQs so far, and still counting! This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable! Sarens Dimaga So many respected players being dirty. "This is beyond fairytale it's inconceivable! " WSOP Norman Chad quote?
First thing I thought of too, hehe.
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This is sad, and casts serious doubt on the viability of using a ladder to seed tournaments. The whole decision-making process for players is completely broken when 25% of the "qualified" list are going to be DQ'd
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I for one will miss Reason. His double Barracks SCV rush against  sAviOr in his prime was an epic watch
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On December 14 2009 07:58 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 07:51 gk_ender wrote:
simpleset answer of them all, too all the cheaters who were being "ladder dodged"
Idra made first without cheating, and he made it playing koreans
Long story short, for ppl who were being "ladder dodged", you had solutions not involving cheating, contacting tl would b the best, but also, you could have simply played koreans who have no idea who you are. You don't really expect them to compare themselves with IdrA, do you? They surely aren't do that either, they are comparing themselves to weaker players who made it into the top48 by dodging. Idra, White-Ra and ret are players of another caliber, active players with time for the game, who are leading the foreign scene. They are not complaining about having to face tougher competition that the rest of the ladder because they can deal with it. And if they were complaining, IdrA and ret were allowed to play as the only people from Korea, so this exception already means that they are getting special treatment. I'm not saying they are justified in what they did, just that it's a bad comparison and argument.
Your clearly missing the argument im making, bc your making it for me. Those three are players of a different caliber, which is why the deserve theyre spot, but you dont come to play oh im kinda good, you play to win or go home. In the osl and msl, players have to meet the best s class gas to offer in the preliminary rounds. They dont cheat and abuse, though tehy may cheese, they do the best they can. Point being, if you dont have teh skills to put up or shut up then dont play, and especially dont cheat. My whole argument was a kind of joke because the best players you mentioned, are really the famous ones, and they played were they were not famous. But if you really wanna get into it, mondragon is arguably one of the most famous sc players outside of korea, and he made it just fine.
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On December 14 2009 14:44 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 13:49 KwarK wrote:
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me. First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either.
You need to stfu, he didn't do anything wrong according to the rules. Stop bashing people that did not cheat...
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On December 14 2009 15:19 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 14:44 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:On December 14 2009 13:49 KwarK wrote:
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me. First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either. You need to stfu, he didn't do anything wrong according to the rules. Stop bashing people that did not cheat...
The rules failed, that's why. KwarK did a ton wrong. He played his own clan mates multiple times, only played people he knew he could beat, until he was caught. Then he started playing other people 2-3 ranks lower them himself. That's not a legit way to work up a ladder, I'm sorry.
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United States42234 Posts
On December 14 2009 15:24 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 15:19 StorrZerg wrote:On December 14 2009 14:44 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:On December 14 2009 13:49 KwarK wrote:
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me. First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either. You need to stfu, he didn't do anything wrong according to the rules. Stop bashing people that did not cheat... The rules failed, that's why. KwarK did a ton wrong. He played his own clan mates multiple times, only played people he knew he could beat, until he was caught. Then he started playing other people 2-3 ranks lower them himself. That's not a legit way to work up a ladder, I'm sorry.
That I played clan mates is neither here nor there. They weren't throwing games and they got their ranks legitimately. Furthermore I got losses from many of them. However to avoid incidents like this I was asking to stop playing them. I then went on to continue to win points, my high point was a fair bit above the end of playing team mates. As for playing people worse than myself, either that's a compliment to me or an insult to a lot of good players. I sought out games against Machine, LZGamer, Oystein, Octzerg, Zergraptor, Fluffy etc. Now either they're all shit players ready to be farmed by any noob or I can actually play this game.
I also played long series with Dimaga, Mondragon, Drone, Avi etc all of whom are better players than me.
Next time take a look at my match list before bitching.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On December 14 2009 15:24 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 15:19 StorrZerg wrote:On December 14 2009 14:44 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:On December 14 2009 13:49 KwarK wrote:
I understand the edit you made to the above post. Obviously you appreciate it when people don't maintain their innocence in the face of clear evidence because then you have to go to the effort of making unequivocable proofs. But in F91s case the abuse was so obvious that I can't give him any credit for admitting it because there was absolutely nothing to gain, no shred of doubt in any fans mind, to be gained by lying. Confession to me implies sacrifice, making a difficult choice for morality over personal gain. In this case admitting it was the best outcome for F91, he was already shown to be an abuser but trying to argue it would only increase the drama and make him look stupid. When lying gets him nowhere and admitting it helps him I can't give him any credit for making a moral choice.
Had he messaged an admin after abusing and admitted it before ret noticed then I'd be arguing in favour of him remaining in the TSL. It was abuse done in the spur of the moment because of anger and desperation at his 0-3 losses to Castro, how obvious it was shows there was no planning. But it wasn't his conscience that drove him to confess, it was pragmatism and that gets him nowhere with me. First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either. You need to stfu, he didn't do anything wrong according to the rules. Stop bashing people that did not cheat... The rules failed, that's why. KwarK did a ton wrong. He played his own clan mates multiple times, only played people he knew he could beat, until he was caught. Then he started playing other people 2-3 ranks lower them himself. That's not a legit way to work up a ladder, I'm sorry.
While it might not be the most legit display of skill level, you have to take into perspective that there's so much money on the line here. People will do whatever they can to get in. So what if Kwark played lower ranked players to point boost? As long as it's within the rules, so be it. It takes time to play such games still, and if he's gonna take the effort to do so, then let it be.
It might not be completely legit, but it's perfectly understandable.
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On December 13 2009 15:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 15:03 KwarK wrote:On December 13 2009 15:01 Chill wrote:On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote:
You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now. Thanks Kwark. When I entered this thread the first thing I wondered was "How does this affect Kwark?" Thankfully you posted within the first 10 replies to let us all know. Thanks Chill. When I made that post I couldn't help thinking "What does Chill think about my post?". Thankfully you saw it and replied to let us all know. Here's the difference, Kwark. I comment on the topic and people's replies. You always, always enter a thread to talk about yourself. It's getting so tired.
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so people that aren't kwark are allowed to discuss kwark without him responding? that's cool
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Kwark, you stomped shitty players. Before every game, you check their stats don't lie. The reason you have such a shitty record is sometimes there wasn't a single shitty player who wanted to play you after your numerous whispers. Thus, you HAD to play someone decent. Lz...avi...oystein, etc.
That's why your record is what it is. B/c you didn't have the opportunity to just bash every single player worse than you.
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United States42234 Posts
On December 14 2009 16:29 kdog3683 wrote:
Kwark, you stomped shitty players. Before every game, you check their stats don't lie. The reason you have such a shitty record is sometimes there wasn't a single shitty player who wanted to play you after your numerous whispers. Thus, you HAD to play someone decent. Lz...avi...oystein, etc.
That's why your record is what it is. B/c you didn't have the opportunity to just bash every single player worse than you.
Well, given your information of absolutely nothing you could speculate about this stuff. Or you could stfu. That'd work too. Or if you really care you could pm Oystein and ask him who was pestering who for games.
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Braavos36373 Posts
Let's all stop talking about Kwark.
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Its ridicolous people here are still flaming kwark when you look around what well known gamers like dimaga or A2 did..
Reputation still seems to be something important..
Im just really shocked about it. Not so much about the fact that they did do it. People cheat. Thats part of the game unfortunately. But what reason for ?
Especially yosh and dimaga who were ranked so highly.. Its just beyond me..
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I kinda *get* why the people that struggled with the top #48 were tempted to abuse/cheat (i don't agree with it but at least there is a real reason for it).
What I really don't get is why people that would qualify cheat/abuse just to play no or less qualifiers. That’s just utterly retarded.
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I am so glad I voted in the 'What do you look forward to most in TSL2?' for 'drama'. This is turning out to be absolutely amazing.
To be honest, I haven't read all 24 + 20ish pages or replies about all the current DQ's, but from what I can gather people tried to slip in free wins here and their from smurf accounts to boost their overall rating. While this level of cheating really doesn't reflect on a persons character (imo) of course they are going to be banned for it.
Really, there is no other competition like this for foreigners, nothing even close. I almost can sympathize with why they would do it. Its the one chance in several years for them to get their name out there and get some recognition. I dont have the skills to reach super high ranks on Iccup so I can only imagine the pressure they were working under (especially since there was no limit on the amount of games you could play).
In conclusion, banning them is the obvious and correct choice, but I don't think people should disown them as valuable players and contributors to the community.
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On December 13 2009 22:36 Boblion wrote:
edit: i wonder if it was Tuzer or Ninja who played on complexity- o,o
On December 14 2009 10:17 SarenS wrote:
was stupid decision and I regret it, to explain it I just must say that I didnt had the time to finish the ladder since I came away in weekend and decided to play TuZeR with his smurf.
Tuzer
Seriously i don't know what saddens me more. The fact that respected players cheated, the fact that they did it in the most obvious and retarded way, the fact that the level of the tournament will be lowered and people i liked will be missing, or legit players that might have been be able to get in top48 but who rage-reseted won't have a spot.
Sad sad day.
The irony is that with the exception of Vassilik and the Polish guy they could have all have got a spot in top 48 without abusing.
edit: Btw i don't understand SarenS why you didn't play Tuzer legitimely if you needed that much those last 200 pts. Yea people would have called it "cheap wins" but you are better than him and could have win easily without abusing and get your spot.
Kwark played many of his friends too...
If he played you from his house you wouldn't have been DQed
edit: It was you or Tuzer who achieved the B rank on Tank18 ?
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It's safe to say that the ladder system was not perfect but it was damn good, a lot better than a direct invite.
PS -- Threads like this gave birth to a random auto match making system, aka War 3's ladder. While not perfect either it definitely was a step in the right direction.
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On December 14 2009 17:11 HuskyTheHusky wrote:
While this level of cheating really doesn't reflect on a persons character (imo) of course they are going to be banned for it.
How does abusing to a higher rank in a tournament not reflect on your character? The TSL has clearly defined rules that are the same for all players, trying to get an unfair advantage over the other competitors (especially in a tourney with almost 30k prize money) makes you a fucking scumbag.
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On December 14 2009 17:44 sword_siege wrote:
It's safe to say that the ladder system was not perfect but it was damn good, a lot better than a direct invite.
PS -- Threads like this gave birth to a random auto match making system, aka War 3's ladder. While not perfect either it definitely was a step in the right direction.
I 100% agree.. cant wait till sc2 gives me a auto match making system
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On December 14 2009 17:56 Lz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 17:44 sword_siege wrote:
It's safe to say that the ladder system was not perfect but it was damn good, a lot better than a direct invite.
PS -- Threads like this gave birth to a random auto match making system, aka War 3's ladder. While not perfect either it definitely was a step in the right direction. I 100% agree.. cant wait till sc2 gives me a auto match making system
Agreed here from a spectators point of view. Not only will people not be able to fix games (as easily), people will also not be able to abuse their way into a higher spot than they deserve by dodging specific maps, matchups and players.
A ladder in general is a way to match opponents of equal playing strength, nothing more. As such, using a ladder to determine qualifiers will only work when the contestants play fairly. This includes playing all matchups, maps and other players of the same rank. It was therefore really saddening to see certain players with only 1 matchup in the last three pages of their matchlist. Even if this sort of matchup-dodgery doesn't get accompanied by other forms of dodging, it's still a way to propel the player to a higher spot on the ladder than he deserves.
While it may not have been against the written rules of the TSL, all the dodging that was going on was certainly against the spirit of the competition. I have lost a lot of respect for the players that (tried to) map/matchup/player-dodge their way into the TSL.
On a more positive note, by the time we reach the Ro16 most if not all of the dodgers will be out and only the most deserving players will remain. Looking forward to some epic encounters! :-)
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United States47024 Posts
On December 14 2009 16:29 kdog3683 wrote:
Kwark, you stomped shitty players. Before every game, you check their stats don't lie. The reason you have such a shitty record is sometimes there wasn't a single shitty player who wanted to play you after your numerous whispers. Thus, you HAD to play someone decent. Lz...avi...oystein, etc.
That's why your record is what it is. B/c you didn't have the opportunity to just bash every single player worse than you.
1) 90% of people who are talking shit about Kwark are doing it based on word of mouth. I would venture to guess that a very small fraction of them either a) got dodged or b) actually bothered to check his games. Unless you fall in either category (and I'll hazard a guess and say you don't), you really are in no position to question Kwark.
2) None of this is even relevant to the issue at hand. ZZangDreamJoy made an ad hominem attack on Kwark, that somehow didn't get called out. Hell, the post:
On December 14 2009 14:44 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
First of all, of course Ret would try to get that investigated upon. I think it was more of his own fear of running into F91, as his ZvZ is somewhat suspect atm, then him wanting the TSL to be cheat free. And second of all, your one to talk about abuse. You played tons of games vs people 2-3 ranks lower, your own clan mates, etc. You didn't deserve to be in the TSL either.
...doesn't even make any attempt to address Kwark's logic. All it does is question Ret's motives, and BM Kwark.
For all the bitching about Kwark making the thread about him, it seems to me in the last few pages other people are making it about him more than Kwark himself is.
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On December 13 2009 21:00 general.snus wrote:
GJ admins! keep it clean!
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Why all the hate against KwarK? Sure, his iccup rank may not be legitI(as in his skill level is probably worse than koreans 2-3 ranks below him) but at least he didn't cheat like low scum.
User was warned for this post.
Please stop turning the thread off topic about one person. Thanks.
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god reason is such an idiot, i played vs him at C+ or B- rank and I ahve to say, he shouldn't even be allowed to play in TSL, HE LAGS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BADLY OMFG. When I played vs him, he drop screen came up and went down to 0 seconds, and then I couldn't disc him, I had to wait like 2 minutes, and then the game resumes in the middle of a battle when I'm not even ready.... This happened 3 times in a 15 minute game, that ended up taking over 20 minutes. Seriously I am really glad that reason is banned because nobody should have to suffer through that in the qualifier rounds ^_^
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Shame to see sarens and dimaga go I was happy to see dimaga fighting! But yeye, shit happens!
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Luckily for the ladder, most people seemed to abuse in a stupid way :O
Ahh so many Swedes just outside top 48, why slack so much
Would have loved to see how Enivid wouldve done... he raped DreamprO so hard at dreamhack ^.^
Too bad with A2 and Yosh aswell, the community lost alot of quality games in those two , and nomatter what Idra says about their skill, they have serious star quality those 2
But gl all !
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On December 14 2009 22:20 TreK wrote:Luckily for the ladder, most people seemed to abuse in a stupid way :OAhh so many Swedes just outside top 48, why slack so much Would have loved to see how Enivid wouldve done... he raped DreamprO so hard at dreamhack ^.^ Too bad with A2 and Yosh aswell, the community lost alot of quality games in those two , and nomatter what Idra says about their skill, they have serious star quality those 2 But gl all !
Well these are just the people that were caught.
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thats why i said most, who knows what other abuse went on ;p But imo there is a big grey zone, you can see a situation in many ways, a situation being 1 top player asking a lower ranked friend to play him
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I know we're trying not to talk about Kwark ... but personally I'm a fan. He played within the rules and did whatever he could to get to the top of the ladder without avoiding all good players along the way. Sure he strove for advantages but he didn't break the rules, he put in an huge lot of time, and he still played some very tough opponents and, as far as I know, didn't dodge anyone who specifically asked him for a game. Even when he played lower ranked players or clan mates he was still taking a risk of losing a bunch of points if he lost the game.
The iCCup ranking system is obviously flawed in an open ladder if you're trying to get a 100% representation of skill. The system gives out more points for winning than losing for heavens sakes!! Except at the top ranks, that is. The TSL staff, of course, knew this beforehand because they are a group of very bright individuals. Personally, I think it all adds to the fun and gives people with extreme dedication a chance at a huge tournament that they otherwise would have no chance in competing in.
Nice try Kwark, I'm sorry you didn't make it! The same goes to other less players who put in a huge amount of time and effort trying to qualify legitimately.
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I'm going to start this post by saying to clearify one thing. What the abusers did not acceptable and they should recive proper punishment. This is not a post to defend what they did, rather one to prevent it from happening again.
I do however feel that some sort conflict was unavoidable in this system. Be it people giving away wins, people playing weaker players, players dodging certain players or just people accusing each other of it. There is always going to conflict when you use a system where you can pick you opponent. I know there is no such thing as a perfect system but it looks to me like all these problems occured because of the system rather than the players.
Running several qualifiers at different dates with groupstages so that players can adjust to a qualifier that fits them maybe? For example, the players could be allowed to participate in all of the events, it would be harder to qualify in the beginning and then it would become easier along the way as stronger players qualified. If you only can play the first qualifier, you atleast had a fair shot. Lets say there's four qualifiers with all of them differing in date and time. Ofcourse, there is a limit to how far you can go to meet peoples whine... Im also aware that this would require a lot of work to actually set up but considering the work the TL staff has to put into going through IP adresses in the current system Im not sure its that much faster.
Just my 5 cents.. I may regret everything I said in 10 mins but thats what came to mind right now.. 
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On December 14 2009 22:57 Robinsa wrote:
Running several qualifiers at different dates with groupstages so that players can adjust to a qualifier that fits them maybe? For example, the players could be allowed to participate in all of the events, it would be harder to qualify in the beginning and then it would become easier along the way as stronger players qualified. If you only can play the first qualifier, you atleast had a fair shot. Lets say there's four qualifiers with all of them differing in date and time.
This is not very precise tbh I do at least not recon any specific system. I think a discussion about other TSL formats is a good idea, BUT i do also want to say that there will never be a format that is loved by everyone!
The latter can never be as users already disagree about who is supposed to be selected by the qualifiers. I am not talking about specific players but things like pure skill vs determination etc.
Thus there will always be people who dislike the result and players who fell ill treated by the rules. THIS CAN NEVER BE ACCEPTED TO REASON RULE BREAKING! Make your own tournament if you think you know rules for a better tournament, but dont spoil others by DISRESPECTING their rules.
@robinsa: i d love to have a better system like you seem to do. so dont be pissed with this post. maybe ideas for a new TSL should go to another thread, bcs to me it all seems like excusing the unexcuseable in this thread.
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On December 14 2009 23:25 iSCd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 22:57 Robinsa wrote:
Running several qualifiers at different dates with groupstages so that players can adjust to a qualifier that fits them maybe? For example, the players could be allowed to participate in all of the events, it would be harder to qualify in the beginning and then it would become easier along the way as stronger players qualified. If you only can play the first qualifier, you atleast had a fair shot. Lets say there's four qualifiers with all of them differing in date and time.
This is not very precise tbh I do at least not recon any specific system. I think a discussion about other TSL formats is a good idea, BUT i do also want to say that there will never be a format that is loved by everyone! The latter can never be as users already disagree about who is supposed to be selected by the qualifiers. I am not talking about specific players but things like pure skill vs determination etc. Thus there will always be people who dislike the result and players who fell ill treated by the rules. THIS CAN NEVER BE ACCEPTED TO REASON RULE BREAKING! Make your own tournament if you think you know rules for a better tournament, but dont spoil others by DISRESPECTING their rules. @robinsa: i d love to have a better system like you seem to do. so dont be pissed with this post. maybe ideas for a new TSL should go to another thread, bcs to me it all seems like excusing the unexcuseable in this thread.
I stated that I dont approve of what they did the first thing I did in the other post. I does however not change the fact that I think the qualifying system is at fault for some of the previous bashing in this thread where people blame eachother of avoiding etc.. and Im talking about the bashing directed against people who havnt been hung out as cheaters now. This system was built for conflict, and we got it. Im sure the TL staff did everything they thought were necassary to prevent this and I couldnt have said this either unless I knew the result. Lets just learn from it rather than start to bash eachother into the next topic.
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Dominican Republic13 Posts
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 14 2009 17:44 sword_siege wrote:
It's safe to say that the ladder system was not perfect but it was damn good, a lot better than a direct invite.
PS -- Threads like this gave birth to a random auto match making system, aka War 3's ladder. While not perfect either it definitely was a step in the right direction.
Even WC3s ladder gets people trying to abuse it with free-wins during the end of season "pro-ladder" stages, right?
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More blood please.
Let it flood !
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It's funny, because before this TSL I actually thought that the ladder system automatically matches people up against each other. When I saw several replay packs from the last tournament, there were so many games of just a few seconds that I thought people were matches up automatically and then thought "no way, I won't play that guy, he's too good" or wouldn't play because they were friends of rivals. Seems quite silly now :o
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Are there going to be more DQs?
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On December 14 2009 01:56 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:54 Camlito wrote:On December 14 2009 01:49 Vasoline73 wrote:
lol Stylish Idra didn't say anything wrong are you being serious? He called him no one and is totally right... it's not insulting..
EDIT: Not to insult you, im just saying.. it's not really that clear cut. Maybe just let it go Yeh, it was pretty baseless start to the "argument", and he even threw in a social skills stab for no apparent reason. I said it could be understood as name calling. Given Idras background of being bad mannered. I only threw in the social skills part after he avoided my point and said that i shouldn't be posting.
You're being really pathetic and childish in this thread. Arguing over a possible interpretation of a sentence and how it might offend someone, and then claiming Idra has no social skills, is a jerk..idiot..blahblah Do you realize how stupid you sound?
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On December 15 2009 16:10 ShaperofDreams wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:56 StylishVODs wrote:On December 14 2009 01:54 Camlito wrote:On December 14 2009 01:49 Vasoline73 wrote:
lol Stylish Idra didn't say anything wrong are you being serious? He called him no one and is totally right... it's not insulting..
EDIT: Not to insult you, im just saying.. it's not really that clear cut. Maybe just let it go Yeh, it was pretty baseless start to the "argument", and he even threw in a social skills stab for no apparent reason. I said it could be understood as name calling. Given Idras background of being bad mannered. I only threw in the social skills part after he avoided my point and said that i shouldn't be posting. You're being really pathetic and childish in this thread. Arguing over a possible interpretation of a sentence and how it might offend someone, and then claiming Idra has no social skills, is a jerk..idiot..blahblah Do you realize how stupid you sound?
Was this post from 10+ pages ago really necessary to rage at and reply to?
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kinda funny in fact (both) xD
btw. As I wrote in the other thread - what about marwin's last games!? They look pretty questionable. How he can find another Ukrainian @ 5:30 am local time and play 3 games which are enough to claim the needed spot @ the ladder ;o !?
tsl-marw match list
It just looks too suspicious to me :S
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On December 15 2009 18:27 BlueStar wrote:kinda funny in fact (both) xD btw. As I wrote in the other thread - what about marwin's last games!? They look pretty questionable. How he can find another Ukrainian @ 5:30 am local time and play 3 games which are enough to claim the needed spot @ the ladder ;o !? tsl-marw match listIt just looks too suspicious to me :S
yeah pretty obvious he fixed those last wins
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well if he played a normal game vs happyzerg who just had a "bad day" no one can ban him for it ^^
better way to abuse then play vs own acc xDD
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On December 15 2009 19:33 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 18:27 BlueStar wrote:kinda funny in fact (both) xD btw. As I wrote in the other thread - what about marwin's last games!? They look pretty questionable. How he can find another Ukrainian @ 5:30 am local time and play 3 games which are enough to claim the needed spot @ the ladder ;o !? tsl-marw match listIt just looks too suspicious to me :S yeah pretty obvious he fixed those last wins
Ban all players who have won against their countrymen during odd hours of the day. Get some more self-proclaimed internet sleuths on it. Come on, guys, lets do this!
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Atleast this proves my point 10 posts ago!, The system was made for conflict.. :D
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actually since he played vs a TSL opponent with both being TSL accounts I dont see anyway u could call this abuse..
except if the games were obviously thrown.. replays will show it if it should be the case
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On December 15 2009 19:33 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 18:27 BlueStar wrote:kinda funny in fact (both) xD btw. As I wrote in the other thread - what about marwin's last games!? They look pretty questionable. How he can find another Ukrainian @ 5:30 am local time and play 3 games which are enough to claim the needed spot @ the ladder ;o !? tsl-marw match listIt just looks too suspicious to me :S yeah pretty obvious he fixed those last wins
He also played Dimaga only one hour before that (4:30) and lost, and also HappyZerg was contender for top48 - so that fact alone does not mean cheating.
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http://www.iccup.com/matchlist/891177/1x1.html
look at last game - started @ 5:52 MSK - duration 05:31 min (ended 3 minutes before closing the TSL2 ladder). If it's not a thrown game he has to be the luckiest man from all those 48 players who qualied ^^
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On December 15 2009 23:12 BlueStar wrote:http://www.iccup.com/matchlist/891177/1x1.htmllook at last game - started @ 5:52 MSK - duration 05:31 min (ended 3 minutes before closing the TSL2 ladder). If it's not a thrown game he has to be the luckiest man from all those 48 players who qualied ^^
The fact that it ended 3 minutes before closing doesn't mean anything, they could have played a 1 hr game and it would still have counted. It's only the starting time (must have started before Dec 13 06:00:00 MSK) that matters.
I dunno if they were thrown or not, just saying the end time of a game doesn't matter
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I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable.
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On December 16 2009 00:36 BlueStar wrote:
I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable.
I don´t agree with you.
Everything starts to look suspicious when you think they do. I mean probably 95% of the players on the verge played faster games towards the end. If you need fast points there´s not much reason in going for hour long macro game everytime.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 16 2009 00:36 BlueStar wrote:
I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable.
I'm not saying Marwin is a cheating low-lying piece of filth. I'm just asking questions. Me? I don't believe that Marwin is cheating by stealing wins at strange hours off of his countrymen. No, I don't know if that's true or not, and maybe it isn't. But don't you think it's a little odd? Don't you think it's a little suspicious?
Hey, don't look at me. I like Marwin personally. Good guy, nice kids. I have nothing against him personally. But, I'm just raising questions. That's all. Don't look at me, I didn't play a series of highly suspect matches against someone I may know because they reside in my country. I'm not an admin. No, I'm just a concerned citizen of TL. And I see this tournament, and...
and I...
I...
I fear for it.
+ Show Spoiler +Man up, cut the stupid "questionable" argument and come out and say what you mean.
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On December 16 2009 00:46 HwangjaeTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2009 00:36 BlueStar wrote:
I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable. I don´t agree with you. Everything starts to look suspicious when you think they do. I mean probably 95% of the players on the verge played faster games towards the end. If you need fast points there´s not much reason in going for hour long macro game everytime.
Probably u r right. I hope u are, cause we already saw many ppl disqualified. Nobody else looked strange to me except marw, and i'm really curious if everything is okay or not ;s
P.S. tree.hugger - eh?
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On December 16 2009 00:54 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2009 00:36 BlueStar wrote:
I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable. I'm not saying Marwin is a cheating low-lying piece of filth. I'm just asking questions. Me? I don't believe that Marwin is cheating by stealing wins at strange hours off of his countrymen. No, I don't know if that's true or not, and maybe it isn't. But don't you think it's a little odd? Don't you think it's a little suspicious? Hey, don't look at me. I like Marwin personally. Good guy, nice kids. I have nothing against him personally. But, I'm just raising questions. That's all. Don't look at me, I didn't play a series of highly suspect matches against someone I may know because they reside in my country. I'm not an admin. No, I'm just a concerned citizen of TL. And I see this tournament, and... and I... I... I fear for it. + Show Spoiler +Man up, cut the stupid "questionable" argument and come out and say what you mean.
lol. I wonder how many people catch the reference...
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On December 16 2009 00:54 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2009 00:36 BlueStar wrote:
I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable. I'm not saying Marwin is a cheating low-lying piece of filth. I'm just asking questions. Me? I don't believe that Marwin is cheating by stealing wins at strange hours off of his countrymen. No, I don't know if that's true or not, and maybe it isn't. But don't you think it's a little odd? Don't you think it's a little suspicious? Hey, don't look at me. I like Marwin personally. Good guy, nice kids. I have nothing against him personally. But, I'm just raising questions. That's all. Don't look at me, I didn't play a series of highly suspect matches against someone I may know because they reside in my country. I'm not an admin. No, I'm just a concerned citizen of TL. And I see this tournament, and... and I... I... I fear for it. + Show Spoiler +Man up, cut the stupid "questionable" argument and come out and say what you mean.
exactly that!
fuck those gay ass suggestiv questions.
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On December 16 2009 00:54 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2009 00:36 BlueStar wrote:
I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable. I'm not saying Marwin is a cheating low-lying piece of filth. I'm just asking questions. Me? I don't believe that Marwin is cheating by stealing wins at strange hours off of his countrymen. No, I don't know if that's true or not, and maybe it isn't. But don't you think it's a little odd? Don't you think it's a little suspicious? Hey, don't look at me. I like Marwin personally. Good guy, nice kids. I have nothing against him personally. But, I'm just raising questions. That's all. Don't look at me, I didn't play a series of highly suspect matches against someone I may know because they reside in my country. I'm not an admin. No, I'm just a concerned citizen of TL. And I see this tournament, and... and I... I... I fear for it. + Show Spoiler +Man up, cut the stupid "questionable" argument and come out and say what you mean.
South Park?
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On December 16 2009 01:32 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2009 00:54 tree.hugger wrote:On December 16 2009 00:36 BlueStar wrote:
I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable. I'm not saying Marwin is a cheating low-lying piece of filth. I'm just asking questions. Me? I don't believe that Marwin is cheating by stealing wins at strange hours off of his countrymen. No, I don't know if that's true or not, and maybe it isn't. But don't you think it's a little odd? Don't you think it's a little suspicious? Hey, don't look at me. I like Marwin personally. Good guy, nice kids. I have nothing against him personally. But, I'm just raising questions. That's all. Don't look at me, I didn't play a series of highly suspect matches against someone I may know because they reside in my country. I'm not an admin. No, I'm just a concerned citizen of TL. And I see this tournament, and... and I... I... I fear for it. + Show Spoiler +Man up, cut the stupid "questionable" argument and come out and say what you mean. lol. I wonder how many people catch the reference...
Glenn Beck, my dear fellow, is a poet. As he would've put it, I think that the dq'd players are abusers. I'm not saying that they abused...
On a more serious note though - to all the other posters who said that the system is flawed:
The system would've been just fine if people had some backbone. The externality of hyping up the event should've been to promote such patriot-ish moral standards.. like that this is a fine event organized by a super dedicated community and I will give my best win it by fair means.
How can there be so many abusers then? Is it the money? Or do they do it always like this, because "it's just the internetz"?
Maybe I'm an idealist but I didn't see it coming on such scale :/ and I guess the staff didn't either. Maybe we thought that the best players we know and love for teh skill are some sorta moral superbeings.
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Hey TSL Admins, one question please. TSL-Juanjo_O who was into the top 48, dissapeared withouth any explanation about it. Did he was DQ for abusing or something ? He's been worried about it, cuz he said that he didnt cheated.
Any explanation about this case will be great, Thanks
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Wow, teamliquid runs tournaments like nobody's business.
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On December 16 2009 00:54 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2009 00:36 BlueStar wrote:
I just mention that it's very suspicious nothing more. Everybody will agree with me.
Imho Marwin is really good and nice player just the circumstances are really questionable. I'm not saying Marwin is a cheating low-lying piece of filth. I'm just asking questions. Me? I don't believe that Marwin is cheating by stealing wins at strange hours off of his countrymen. No, I don't know if that's true or not, and maybe it isn't. But don't you think it's a little odd? Don't you think it's a little suspicious? Hey, don't look at me. I like Marwin personally. Good guy, nice kids. I have nothing against him personally. But, I'm just raising questions. That's all. Don't look at me, I didn't play a series of highly suspect matches against someone I may know because they reside in my country. I'm not an admin. No, I'm just a concerned citizen of TL. And I see this tournament, and... and I... I... I fear for it. + Show Spoiler +Man up, cut the stupid "questionable" argument and come out and say what you mean.
glen beck, am I right?
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On December 14 2009 13:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
F91 didn't get caught, he admitted when asked about it. F91 is truly the only one who has a legit complaints of being dodged as all of TSL avoided him because of lag and maybe skill as well. A deadly combo that no one is to blame for.
It made it a very hard ladder for him, harder than for the others, but F91 and Ash were well aware and informed about this in advance of the ladder. We all knew this was going to be the case for him before he joined so there was nothing new there. When offered half-way to use a smurf he declined because it wasn't needed. They said it would be no problem getting top 12 playing vs Koreans and it seemed like that was going to hold true till F91 stopped playing.
Near the end they requested to smurf but with so little time left we denied the request because this close to the deadline we felt it wouldn't be fair to opponents not to be aware of who they were facing, as losing 1 or 2 games could make a huge difference on the final 2 days.
None of this should ever be an excuse to abuse. The only people who really get dodged are the ones good enough to beat all the Koreans (F91, Ret, Idra, White-ra). Not TSL-Reason don't make me laugh. Being good enough to be dodged means you are good enough to make it regardless, unless you refuse to put sufficient time in.
Plz don't ban F91 from future TL events
facts:
1) F91 needed top 12 because of timing of Q3 is near the official TLSL2 event.
2) F91 made it to top 12 by playing all koreans
3) F91 stop playing because he thought he is already secured top 12
4) Others in top 12 abused the ladder very late in the ladder stage to inflate the Top 12 cut off rating
5) F91 needed to get back into top12, but time is now a huge factor.
6) F91 is being dodged by all foreigners in the latter stage of the ladder. ( they requested a smurf account as a result, but was denied)
7) F91 asked friend to help him with abusing the ladder, as it was impossible to get back to top 12 with the inflated rating and the time that was left.
8) F91 straight up replied "yes I abused" when asked about this situation, And he didn't attempt to explain himself with the above 7 other facts.
Based on these facts, I would consider F91 as a victim of unforeseen events, he was forced into this situation. He didn't create the situation, but he made the wrong decision to deal with the situation. Logically we should consider all these facts before we decide his right in future participation of TL events.
Now ending of facts, my personal opinion is F91 should be allow to participate in future TL events, with promise that he will never abuse again. Put yourself in his situation, what can you do with so little time left at the end of the ladder, and the Smurf option was retracted without prior notice about its availability at end of the ladder. There are 2 choices, play more koreans or abuse. I feel that the right choice is to keep playing koreans from 3am for the rest of the day regardless how tired he was, and hope for the best.
I suspect F91 also aware of this option, and the reason he didn't choose might be because he tried, lost, due to the fact of being too tired and lacking concentration. He realized any more games will drop his rating instead of increasing it. The time was running out, he had no more option available to him other than cheat.
If TL acted sooner, or notice him the possibility of his below top12 ranking might not be final due to others' abuse, he would not have cheated, The responsibility of choosing to cheat is on F91 alone, but the scenario is not created by F91 base on these facts.
So please do not deny F91's right in future TL events, we love to see him in foreigner events.
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If TL acted sooner, or notice him the possibility of his below top12 ranking might not be final due to others' abuse, he would not have cheated, The responsibility of choosing to cheat is on F91 alone, but the scenario is not created by F91 base on these facts.
I don't think it's appropriate to assume things like this. There was contact about F91s rank with Ash and he was very aware F91 was not playing enough to make it to the end with his current rank, and harassed F91 to play more.
Other than that I'm not going to respond here about future punishment. It is a very sensitive subject which needs a lot of staff discussion before we come out with verdicts.
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I see, thanks for the new information, as I do not have those facts when I construct my argument. i guess1 explanation for the lack of playing from F91 would be his miss judgement on how high the rating of top12 cut off would be. The other explanation could be that he planed to cheat from the beginning and didn't care how far he drop off top 12, and finally the most logical explanation is that he's just a slacker
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damn, these guys are pros at catching abusers O.O
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On December 17 2009 09:57 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 13:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
F91 didn't get caught, he admitted when asked about it. F91 is truly the only one who has a legit complaints of being dodged as all of TSL avoided him because of lag and maybe skill as well. A deadly combo that no one is to blame for.
It made it a very hard ladder for him, harder than for the others, but F91 and Ash were well aware and informed about this in advance of the ladder. We all knew this was going to be the case for him before he joined so there was nothing new there. When offered half-way to use a smurf he declined because it wasn't needed. They said it would be no problem getting top 12 playing vs Koreans and it seemed like that was going to hold true till F91 stopped playing.
Near the end they requested to smurf but with so little time left we denied the request because this close to the deadline we felt it wouldn't be fair to opponents not to be aware of who they were facing, as losing 1 or 2 games could make a huge difference on the final 2 days.
None of this should ever be an excuse to abuse. The only people who really get dodged are the ones good enough to beat all the Koreans (F91, Ret, Idra, White-ra). Not TSL-Reason don't make me laugh. Being good enough to be dodged means you are good enough to make it regardless, unless you refuse to put sufficient time in. Plz don't ban F91 from future TL events facts: 1) F91 needed top 12 because of timing of Q3 is near the official TLSL2 event. 2) F91 made it to top 12 by playing all koreans 3) F91 stop playing because he thought he is already secured top 12 4) Others in top 12 abused the ladder very late in the ladder stage to inflate the Top 12 cut off rating 5) F91 needed to get back into top12, but time is now a huge factor. 6) F91 is being dodged by all foreigners in the latter stage of the ladder. ( they requested a smurf account as a result, but was denied) 7) F91 asked friend to help him with abusing the ladder, as it was impossible to get back to top 12 with the inflated rating and the time that was left. 8) F91 straight up replied "yes I abused" when asked about this situation, And he didn't attempt to explain himself with the above 7 other facts.
dimaga and yosh were the only 2 in the top 12 who were caught abusing and their removal dropped the cutoff by around 20 points.
everyone good was dodged and its his own fault he didnt play enough to secure a spot when he knew he had to get top 12. first time he was asked he denied it, ash posted that.
if the other abusers are banned from tl events he should be too.
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On December 17 2009 12:25 IdrA wrote:
dimaga and yosh were the only 2 in the top 12 who were caught abusing
is there a hint there somewhere on that line suggesting they are not the only one abusing, but were only ones that were caught? Just making sure
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id expect there were at least some others, but no i dont actually know of anyone else who cheated
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Osaka27133 Posts
I don't think anyone believes that 100% of the cheaters were caught, far from it. But at some point it becomes impossible to track / enforce / uncover.
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ya, freewinning is impossible to detect if the players arent retarded about it
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freewin isnt cheating really, what rule would it be how hard you have to try to win? Imagine how hard it is to validate every game ever played on iccup
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obviously it is cheating, just because its not something that can really be enforced doesnt mean its ok.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
trek if you don't mind we are going to go ahead and ignore YOUR voice when it comes to abuse/hacking etc.
^_^
Doesn't really shock me you have less of a problem with freewinning than everyone else.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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On December 17 2009 18:29 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
trek if you don't mind we are going to go ahead and ignore YOUR voice when it comes to abuse/hacking etc.
^_^
Doesn't really shock me you have less of a problem with freewinning than everyone else.
So why are you even opening your mouth when we are talking about high level & skilled play ?
+ Show Spoiler +just kidding man.. dont be so mean >_<
Trek isnt right. Cheating is cheating no matter what.
But then again there are things u just cant punish because u dont even recognize them or cant proof em
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hmm, freewin isn't cheating to me either... look how many freewins there are in real sport.. when some team have no need to win then that team makes some moves just to try something new without any risk.. it's like that in starcraft.. it would be cheating if from the start some player gives freewin to some other.. but in the end of ladder when to one player win or loss made no difference..
no cheating
edit: ofcourse, we can debate about word freewin coz someone will say dreiven got freewin and dreiven (and me) would say that was not a freewin
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you can't just compare the two that's seriously incredibly short sighted, how many alternate accounts do football teams have in the world championship
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it is cheating but its so sublime and u can never be sure anyways so its useless arguing about it..
who can decide if a game was lost on purpose or not..
and that comparison is kinda off in deed..
no one said Dreiven got free wins just that the games under the cirumstances they were played are suspicous, if they were proven free wins he would probably not got them removed and thus the points but more likely been kicked ..
whatever I find it ridicolous that some people want other people to shut up on certain matters just because they have been a culprit at one time, too..
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On December 17 2009 22:38 purgerinho wrote:
hmm, freewin isn't cheating to me either... look how many freewins there are in real sport.. when some team have no need to win then that team makes some moves just to try something new without any risk.. it's like that in starcraft.. it would be cheating if from the start some player gives freewin to some other.. but in the end of ladder when to one player win or loss made no difference..
no cheating
edit: ofcourse, we can debate about word freewin coz someone will say dreiven got freewin and dreiven (and me) would say that was not a freewin
Purposefully throwing a game, is also not allowed in football. It is just hard to prove, and thus rarely acted against.
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I just dont think the line between judging if someone plays 100% or if its a freewin is judgeable, altho you can go with opinions, but it will never be fact.. i didnt exactly mean it wasnt cheating tho, it kind of came out wrong.
So incontrol must be awesome up on your high horse ofc
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On December 17 2009 18:49 Kennigit wrote:
hahahah Trek.
be nice
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 18 2009 05:53 TreK wrote:
I just dont think the line between judging if someone plays 100% or if its a freewin is judgeable, altho you can go with opinions, but it will never be fact.. i didnt exactly mean it wasnt cheating tho, it kind of came out wrong.
So incontrol must be awesome up on your high horse ofc
If by high horse you mean I never hacked I guess it is great up here. You should.. wait?
This is the internet. We don't need a court of law and 100% proof doesn't really exist. If a person has an account with the SAME IP that transfers to some random account then magically loses 3 games ALL WITH THE SAME IP we are going to go ahead and rule out that someone in that house is a secret SCBW gosu that was previously undiscovered even by the other gamer and the games were legit.
Trek this is like your 10th year on the scene, you should really know by now we don't go by 100% we go by huge overwhelming evidence which puts us at like 98%.
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I share my PC with boxer
prove i don't!!
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On December 18 2009 06:40 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 05:53 TreK wrote:
I just dont think the line between judging if someone plays 100% or if its a freewin is judgeable, altho you can go with opinions, but it will never be fact.. i didnt exactly mean it wasnt cheating tho, it kind of came out wrong.
So incontrol must be awesome up on your high horse ofc If by high horse you mean I never hacked I guess it is great up here. You should.. wait? This is the internet. We don't need a court of law and 100% proof doesn't really exist. If a person has an account with the SAME IP that transfers to some random account then magically loses 3 games ALL WITH THE SAME IP we are going to go ahead and rule out that someone in that house is a secret SCBW gosu that was previously undiscovered even by the other gamer and the games were legit. Trek this is like your 10th year on the scene, you should really know by now we don't go by 100% we go by huge overwhelming evidence which puts us at like 98%.
Ofcourse! But i thought it was obvious i wasnt talking about people abusing with the same IP.
I meant, for example, that if u asked to play me and i happened to like u and thought u had a great shot at getting top 48, who is to know if i were gonna play my 100% or not? and i think everyone in the top layer of starcraft knows that if u dont give close to 100% it isnt very easy to beat top gamers, then how can one decide if it was abuse or not...thats was my point.
I think its great that abusers and others get kicked out, or else this tournament would have no credibility i guess, i just meant that there is a grey zone that is always impossible to catch.
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We're working on some rules for future TSL's that pulls grey zone stuff into black zone stuff so that there can't be any confusion or suspicion. It's really not impossible but you'll hear about them by the time TSL3 comes along
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Osaka27133 Posts
Basically we are going to clone Nazgul 1200 times and send him to each players house. He will sit behind you while you play, eat all your food, and discuss MMA with you in his awesome Dutch accent.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
People weren't banned for merely winning against friends. That raised suspicion and no amount of rule setting will remove that suspicion. The things that lead to bans were the offrace play, time of games, length of games etc.. yes it is all circumstantial and at the end of the day it cannot be 100% but people should know better. If I 3-0'd artosis minutes before the ladder ended people would have the SAME suspicions with me. If artosis played Zerg people would "KNOW" that it was abuse.
Also I think we are getting ahead of ourselves.. TSL didn't "ban" dreiven they removed games they thought could have been played out of ill intent. They could be wrong so they went with a lesser penalty..
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On December 14 2009 01:30 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 01:29 meRz wrote:
This is freaking disgusting.
There were a lot of players who were close or even in the top48 who fell out because they tried to keep up with the cutoff. Had these players not abused the cutoff would've never been this high and those people would've probably qualified.. ya actually thats the worst part of the whole thing. theres quite a few people who were 9500ish and kept playing, losing points, because the cutoff was inflated by these people. really really sucks for them.
Yea this.
At least somebody's day gets made by qualifying when they thought they wouldn't, it's just unfortunate that it's not the players it probably would have been.
edit: removed part of post
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Well ye, but in almost every big tournament there will be bans and people who cant come.. so if you reset or stop playing when you are very close to qualifying then that doesnt seem very smart.
Altho i can see that most people(including me ofc) didnt think that this many would get banned for abusing
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Ya i can understand TreK too.
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haha :D why make me blush
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