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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
The TL staff cares about the forums and the community more than anybody else. Every time Idra breaks the rules on the forums, TL mods are put in the unfair position of having to balance Idra's fame and popularity with his disregard for the rules. Every time Idra makes a non constructive, instigative post, he's daring the mods to ban him. Eventually the line has to be drawn, and as you can see, this kind of explosion is the very thing that the mods have tried to avoid for a while, and have pleaded with Idra to try to avoid for a while.
Eventually Idra will grow up, but until he stops acting like a spoiled, stubborn brat about his behavior and decides to conform to the rules the way everyone else has to, I don't see why he should be allowed to post on TL
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United States22883 Posts
On May 08 2011 10:00 Wiseman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 09:55 Caul wrote:
Whether or not Idra deserved the ban has become less important to me, than ,Team Liquid and the moderators imposing a new set of standards on the community. We saw it with the discussion with EG's annoucement and Tyler's comments on the same and we are seeing it again here.
Success or Power corrupts, at some point Team Liquid staff and management need to evaluate what the greater success is doing to the "community" belief and attitude. If Team Liquid is only for "the old guard" or those that "toe the line", then I think that Team Liquid needs to address what the goals for the site are.
At the same time, EG should ask themselves some hard questions about it means to be on EG. Or is Idra the designated "bad boy" of the team and its his job to stir up controversy. Essentiallyis it just an act or stunt for publicity? I wonder what role Incontrol has been designated? But I digress...
Personnely, Idra's act is getting old and tired and is offering nothing new. IMHO he needs to evolve if he wants to continue to be a valued voice in the community and esports in general. As an example, his one dimensional discussion of game balance last week on State of the game.
I will watch his games, but read his posts, no, Watch his stream yes - but with the audio off.
I have to 100% agree with this post. At this point, I think the concern is not over the ban, but what this ban and other recent events that have occurred as we see the explosion of SC2 onto the eSports scene in the coming summer. This is the first summer of Starcraft II and we will see that landscape that will be the SC2 for years to come take a more defined shape. Team Liquid has a definite place in this landscape, but what that place is not set in stone. TL and EG, and all NA eSports organizations need to be asking themselves some tough questions about how they want to see the community grow in NA. SC2 has all the potential bring eSports to the mainstream in NA, but it won't get there purely off of being the great game that it is.
Not to offend, but I think people have absurdly grand illusions about SC2 and the "community of ESPORTS." This isn't the first game to blow up with hundreds of thousands of spectators and I don't expect most of the community to stick around any longer than they have for other games. CS had bigger sponsors and more prize money and probably just as many fans, and look where it is today. I get tons of PMs from people wanting to be featured for the good of ESPORTS and it's a lot of bullshit. People need to stop dreaming about the end goal and start focusing on how to conduct themselves in the meantime.
Speaking personally, and not as staff, I think TL has always been about doing things "the right way" as it sees it as best as it can, even if it clashes with people's end goals for ESPORTS or causes controversy. Of course you can disagree with things like the ban or the voiced protests over EG Master's Cup's system, but they have nothing to do with getting a pat on the back or personal vendettas. In fact, most serious issues are fleshed out by many members of upper level staff, who over the years have shown more presence of mind than any other group of people I've met. Pleas like "unban him for the fans!" clash directly with that. Again, people can disagree with that philosophy, but when it comes to big decisions, this isn't something that has radically changed since SC2 came out.
As for the ban, IdrA is my favorite player and I've cringed during all of his recent bans because I knew it was getting to this point, and I knew he deserved it. Everyone that's been in this community through the WCG USA's and F91 match and all the other drama knew what he was doing with that tweet. I had no say in the matter but in my opinion, if IdrA hadn't been a long time contributing community member himself, 90 days would seem lenient for his history and his past/present attitude.
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Hes had multiple bans and warning, including a few permanent bans. Three months of him not being able to post on tl, probably not that big a deal. If something comes up and he needs to get info out to his fans he'll just turn on stream and do that, or just post a tweet and have one of his fans post something on TL for him. He isn't really silenced, just deciding to be mute. In four months time we'll look back on this and be, "Lol. Remember that time Idra got banned for '....' That was great."
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Yep, someone needs to grow up. Talent and hardwork doesn't give anyone the licence to be an ass.
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This goes to all the people that think Idra "helps grow esports". Idra has done nothing but play competitively in sc2. He streams because he makes money off viewers. You didn't see him streaming until the justin.tv deals started going around. People thinking that Idra is a contributor to esports really need to start looking through that thick wall that i call being naive and see the truth for what it is. Idra has honestly just caused so much trouble and controversey. I certainly hope he shuts his mouth from now on after this ban. I'm so surprised that TL didn't ban his stream for 90 days as well. TL still continues to let idra make money off utilizing their website despite Idra's actions. What a lucky guy he is. He should be grateful for the grace he is being shown whether or not it was soley to benefit him or not.
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I don't understand how anyone can be a fan of this IdrA any more. He's just a bad mannered, stuck up little brat, who is delusional in thinking he can somehow get away with being a complete tool.
On May 08 2011 10:37 TALegion wrote:
Maybe this is me being stupid (though, makes sense to me...), but I think this entire scenario is a giant-ass piece of evidence that all of IdrA's BM is just some bullshit attention-whoring publicity stunt to get people to notice him (and I believe it's working, seeing as he has a 50 page thread on his ban, and a +400 page fan thread).
^
This
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 08 2011 10:37 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 10:36 intrigue wrote:On May 08 2011 10:33 stevarius wrote:On May 08 2011 10:30 TurpinOS wrote:On May 08 2011 10:25 stevarius wrote:
This is the only forum that I've *ever* seen go to this lengths to ban someone for breaking rules.
90 days? That's just ridiculous. Not a fan of the whole drama scenario and not a fan of how it was handled. With that said, I won't go to great lengths to show my discontent because I don't want to share in his punishment. 1. this should be considered a good thing, atlas a forum that has strict standards of moderations and that are followed 2. idra has been banned over 25 times on the site, ive rarely seen something like that on any forums, he should count himself as very lucky When you consider how many posts he has and how long he's been on these forums, 25 is not really anything. It's like parking tickets over 30 years. to fix your analogy: it's like he parks 4.46 times per day over a period of 7 years and still hits other cars but is the car he hits a waste of metal?
I think its pretty bad that I lol'd at this.
Regardless, I don't want TL to be brough down to the level of the FPS, WoW or other such communities in general, has anyone ever been to the official Bnet forums?Not a pretty sight.
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On May 08 2011 10:37 TALegion wrote:
Question:
Why wasn't this a perma ban?
I understand that as a pro, he gets a little leeway. Maybe even a lot of leeway. But he is WAY past that. If all of his bans (or even really half of them) were taken seriously, he would have been perma banned a while.
TL, being a place were conduct and proper behavior are so well enforced, doesn't seem like a place where there would be THAT MUCH of a double standard ("Oh, you're a pro, so you can do whatever the fuck you want. We'll just flick your ear around as punishment," vs. "What? Fucking 10 posts? Banned.")
I'm not saying that TL is unfair/flawed, because I refuse to believe that, what I'm saying is that they don't take IdrA's bans seriously. Why? My idea is that none of this is, "real." IdrA just does all of this shit for publicity. Why else would he get such lenient penalties?
The TL staff knows this, and bans him accordingly, while still making is realistic. They couldn't just completely ignore it, because then people would think lowly of TL/disregard IdrA as a fake (it'd be too obvious). If they actually treated him regularly, he'd have been gone LONG ago.
Maybe this is me being stupid (though, makes sense to me...), but I think this entire scenario is a giant-ass piece of evidence that all of IdrA's BM is just some bullshit attention-whoring publicity stunt to get people to notice him (and I believe it's working, seeing as he has a 50 page thread on his ban, and a +400 page fan thread).
Wow, this takes the cake as the most asinine conspiracy theory I've ever heard. Good job, Mr. Internet Detective!
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I am so happy to have TL as the number 1 SC community as opposed to having to use the official battle.net forums, I mean can you even imagine trying to get anything useful out of those boards?! I'm not a fan of Idra really, but I do enjoy watching him and I think, in his own way, he is great for Starcraft. But I am thankful TL has high standards and regardless of who fails to meet those standards, they are punished accordingly.
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On May 08 2011 10:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 09:55 Caul wrote:
Whether or not Idra deserved the ban has become less important to me, than ,Team Liquid and the moderators imposing a new set of standards on the community. We saw it with the discussion with EG's annoucement and Tyler's comments on the same and we are seeing it again here.
Success or Power corrupts, at some point Team Liquid staff and management need to evaluate what the greater success is doing to the "community" belief and attitude. If Team Liquid is only for "the old guard" or those that "toe the line", then I think that Team Liquid needs to address what the goals for the site are.
At the same time, EG should ask themselves some hard questions about it means to be on EG. Or is Idra the designated "bad boy" of the team and its his job to stir up controversy. Essentiallyis it just an act or stunt for publicity? I wonder what role Incontrol has been designated? But I digress...
Personnely, Idra's act is getting old and tired and is offering nothing new. IMHO he needs to evolve if he wants to continue to be a valued voice in the community and esports in general. As an example, his one dimensional discussion of game balance last week on State of the game.
I will watch his games, but read his posts, no, Watch his stream yes - but with the audio off.
As a member of the "old guard". I find your post utterly offensive. As someone who has been on TL for 7 years I have seen it change over the years. The leniency people get in posting now is far far higher than it used to be. TL is much more lenient and has become a far more open community overall since the launch of SC2. Do not talk about things you don't understand. We have a list of rules that everyone should have read upon joining TL. What Idra did is against those rules. People may view his ban as harsh, but his status as a progamer and the contributions that have been given to the community because of this is the only reason he hasn't been perma banned. He has a long standing reputation of being bad mannered, trollish, disrespectful, etc... to both his opponents in games, the moderation staff on TL. For him to then continue the behaviour that has gotten him punished in the past then only encourage the harassment of a mod (who has contributed more to this website than almost every user, and a fair amount of progamers) I would tell you all to sit down and think before you post. Ban was justified, and anyone saying it was unjustified is ignorant and should open their eyes. Idra is no saint, hes a complete asshat and has only gotten off as lightly as he has because of his skill at sc2. Everyone should be grateful his stream wasn't pulled from TL.
That isn't even the half of it BC.
I don't think they realize how soft the TL staff has gone. They have welcomed everyone with open arms.
No one likes shit disturbers. IdrA is one of the worst shit disturbers this community has ever known. There is a reason why his fan-base used to be so small. It took an eternity for IdrA to get good results (he simply wouldn't grow -- how ironic!). Then the bandwagon started and now we get bombarded with more shit disturbers.
Have a mind of your own. If someone tells you to do something. Give it a little more thought. I'm getting tired of all these fan boys who regurgitate the same old shit.
On May 08 2011 10:39 Jibba wrote:
Not to offend, but I think people have absurdly grand illusions about SC2 and the "community of ESPORTS." This isn't the first game to blow up with hundreds of thousands of spectators and I don't expect most of the community to stick around any longer than they have for other games. CS had bigger sponsors and more prize money and probably just as many fans, and look where it is today. I get tons of PMs from people wanting to be featured for the good of ESPORTS and it's a lot of bullshit. People need to stop dreaming about the end goal and start focusing on how to conduct themselves in the meantime.
Indeed. The influx will steadily decline and posters will fade away like usual. Perhaps then the quality will outweigh the quantity once again.
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On May 08 2011 10:38 julianto wrote:
What did Idra post that got him originally banned?
Something about cruncher being waste of life.
People want drama and it attracts new people also.
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I think that by posting this here (the 90 days ban thread on forum) you're playing his game. Imho all he wants is attention and being treated like a special person (which he's not, just a simple human being behind a screen like all of us) and you're giving him just that.
I saw the link Ichabod posted and you've had way too much patient with him honestly :F
Regards 
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I don't think IdrA was right to try and get people spamming Chill, but by banning him what do you hope to achieve? If you've warned him before surely you realise he isn't going to change his stance on things and certain players..
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On May 08 2011 10:37 madrod wrote:
this all seems pretty silly to me. "context" seems to be a pretty big thing with the TL admins, but certainly not from other's point of view. looking at greg's twitter, all he said was to pm chill if you're not happy about the ban. isnt that what you do anyway? he didnt say "everyone go call him a dick".
then you take the waste of life comment, in the correct context he said it, hes not saying someone would be better off dead, all he meant was, he is a waste of time, or, a waste of YOUR life if you complain about him.
i dont at all see why this deserved a ban, but TL can ban whoever they want, its their site. all i ask is that the same scrutiny is given to all users in order to be fair. only this rises a problem in that idra was deemed guilty so quickly (using the "waste of life" quote, when not reading what he actually meant), yet everyone is so keen to point out cruncher should be innoxent until proven guilty, theres no solid evidence blah blah blah.
i guess it comes down to the fact that idra never relly posted all that much anyway, not much will be missed. hopefully he streams again soon, and hopefully TL start moderating fairly and without bias.
If TL was fair and treated him like any other user, he would be gone loooong time ago.
TL has rules, and anyone insulting someone else here is banned, I can't see why you try to defend that.
And about the twitter comment : Chill DID received 178 PMs from IdrA's fans. IdrA definitly knew this was going to happen, you can't deny that.
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wait, so hes done this before and been temp-banned before for almost the same infraction
any other person wouldve been killed on site and wouldnt be given a second chance
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On May 08 2011 10:38 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 10:36 Az0r_au wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2011 10:23 mahnini wrote:
what people are forgetting is that TL has high standards for the conduct of their users. due to the explosion of new users and lack of sufficient manpower to moderate a lot of people think TL is just some forum where you can post whatever you feel like with no repercussions. that couldn't be anywhere further from the truth.
this is going to sound super elitist but i don't care because it's the truth. TL is one of the foundations for why sc2 is the way it is today. TL is one of the reasons western esports even stands a chance. for 10 years through thick and thin our little community kept cranking out coverage of a video game from across the world that many have heard of but few truly understood. all the mods and staff you see aren't here doing it for the money or power, they do it because they love the game and the community. hot_bid, chill, kennigit? they all started as regular users who browsed the forum and loved the game. through contributions to the site and dedication they were selected to be among the proud few who could call themselves TL staff.
think about how easy it is today for you to get a stream to watch sc2 and remember that back in 2005 TL members would stay up till 2am on irc hoping that one of our members MAYBE could get their hands on a korean stream. remember that when WCG had no idea what TL was or how to get a proper caster TL's support and encouragement helped propel tasteless to caster fame.
TLPD? possibly the most comprehensive starcraft database in existence? made from the ground up by TL staff and volunteers. our strategy forums are probably the most informative english resources in the world, they have to be moderated and still we don't consider them to be perfect. articles, fpvods, commentaries? our users put their heart and soul into churning these out because they knew somewhere out there in our community there was someone who would appreciate it.
people need to stop considering TL a separate entity or some conglomerate of egotistic admins. TL is YOU. every single poster, viewer, or reader is part of TL. everything on this site is user generated by people who care and it's a damn shame when one of only sites that will literally take a stand for the community and uphold it's integrity is seen as some overzealous, overmoderated, egotistic, site for elitists.
if that's elitist then i'm an elitist and that's just how it is. While I agree that previous TL members have made TL what it is today and you all deserve full credit for bringing your small community to the mainstream, main stream e-sports (atleast in NA) contains BM and smack talk. Try watching Halo or CoD, every frag is accompanied by an insult to the dead players mother or his sexuality. I feel that because of TL's beginnings as a tight nit community, the "old guard" has a very sheltered view and thin skinned view on manners in general. Sooner or later TL will have to deal with the fact that BM is a part of e-sports and a very entertaining part at that. Most casual viewers dont watch e-sports because they can appreciate the finer points of a 45 minute macro game. They watch it for their favourite players and their rivalries or to see people "get owned" etc. The FPS communities as I know them are looked upon as shit compared to TL, same with the WoW community. I don't think that is what we want this to become.
I'm not saying we should emmulate those communities, but at the same time TL needs to realise the value of bm/rivalries to e-sports as a whole.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 08 2011 10:43 Az0r_au wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 10:38 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 10:36 Az0r_au wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2011 10:23 mahnini wrote:
what people are forgetting is that TL has high standards for the conduct of their users. due to the explosion of new users and lack of sufficient manpower to moderate a lot of people think TL is just some forum where you can post whatever you feel like with no repercussions. that couldn't be anywhere further from the truth.
this is going to sound super elitist but i don't care because it's the truth. TL is one of the foundations for why sc2 is the way it is today. TL is one of the reasons western esports even stands a chance. for 10 years through thick and thin our little community kept cranking out coverage of a video game from across the world that many have heard of but few truly understood. all the mods and staff you see aren't here doing it for the money or power, they do it because they love the game and the community. hot_bid, chill, kennigit? they all started as regular users who browsed the forum and loved the game. through contributions to the site and dedication they were selected to be among the proud few who could call themselves TL staff.
think about how easy it is today for you to get a stream to watch sc2 and remember that back in 2005 TL members would stay up till 2am on irc hoping that one of our members MAYBE could get their hands on a korean stream. remember that when WCG had no idea what TL was or how to get a proper caster TL's support and encouragement helped propel tasteless to caster fame.
TLPD? possibly the most comprehensive starcraft database in existence? made from the ground up by TL staff and volunteers. our strategy forums are probably the most informative english resources in the world, they have to be moderated and still we don't consider them to be perfect. articles, fpvods, commentaries? our users put their heart and soul into churning these out because they knew somewhere out there in our community there was someone who would appreciate it.
people need to stop considering TL a separate entity or some conglomerate of egotistic admins. TL is YOU. every single poster, viewer, or reader is part of TL. everything on this site is user generated by people who care and it's a damn shame when one of only sites that will literally take a stand for the community and uphold it's integrity is seen as some overzealous, overmoderated, egotistic, site for elitists.
if that's elitist then i'm an elitist and that's just how it is. While I agree that previous TL members have made TL what it is today and you all deserve full credit for bringing your small community to the mainstream, main stream e-sports (atleast in NA) contains BM and smack talk. Try watching Halo or CoD, every frag is accompanied by an insult to the dead players mother or his sexuality. I feel that because of TL's beginnings as a tight nit community, the "old guard" has a very sheltered view and thin skinned view on manners in general. Sooner or later TL will have to deal with the fact that BM is a part of e-sports and a very entertaining part at that. Most casual viewers dont watch e-sports because they can appreciate the finer points of a 45 minute macro game. They watch it for their favourite players and their rivalries or to see people "get owned" etc. The FPS communities as I know them are looked upon as shit compared to TL, same with the WoW community. I don't think that is what we want this to become. I'm not saying we should emmulate those communities, but at the same time TL needs to realise the value of bm/rivalries to e-sports as a whole.
To E-sports maybe, not TL, there is a difference.
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On May 08 2011 10:38 the-darkest-templar wrote:
Idra's ban was deserved. He creates needless conflict because he's self-important and feels that if he has enough followers then his childishness is justified.
It isn't. He had a lit of leeway. And he abused the hell out of it. Idra needs to grow up. Anyone else would have just taken the ban and gone back to streaming. He had to complicate issues because he felt persecuted, as he often does, because he's Idra, and everyone's out to get him.
And Cruncher does not create conflict with Idra because he then feels self-important and feels that his followers will love him more for playing the anti-anti-hero to Idra's anti-hero? This particular conflict I do not believe was started by Idra, but it was continued by him.
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On May 08 2011 10:43 Az0r_au wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 10:38 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 10:36 Az0r_au wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2011 10:23 mahnini wrote:
what people are forgetting is that TL has high standards for the conduct of their users. due to the explosion of new users and lack of sufficient manpower to moderate a lot of people think TL is just some forum where you can post whatever you feel like with no repercussions. that couldn't be anywhere further from the truth.
this is going to sound super elitist but i don't care because it's the truth. TL is one of the foundations for why sc2 is the way it is today. TL is one of the reasons western esports even stands a chance. for 10 years through thick and thin our little community kept cranking out coverage of a video game from across the world that many have heard of but few truly understood. all the mods and staff you see aren't here doing it for the money or power, they do it because they love the game and the community. hot_bid, chill, kennigit? they all started as regular users who browsed the forum and loved the game. through contributions to the site and dedication they were selected to be among the proud few who could call themselves TL staff.
think about how easy it is today for you to get a stream to watch sc2 and remember that back in 2005 TL members would stay up till 2am on irc hoping that one of our members MAYBE could get their hands on a korean stream. remember that when WCG had no idea what TL was or how to get a proper caster TL's support and encouragement helped propel tasteless to caster fame.
TLPD? possibly the most comprehensive starcraft database in existence? made from the ground up by TL staff and volunteers. our strategy forums are probably the most informative english resources in the world, they have to be moderated and still we don't consider them to be perfect. articles, fpvods, commentaries? our users put their heart and soul into churning these out because they knew somewhere out there in our community there was someone who would appreciate it.
people need to stop considering TL a separate entity or some conglomerate of egotistic admins. TL is YOU. every single poster, viewer, or reader is part of TL. everything on this site is user generated by people who care and it's a damn shame when one of only sites that will literally take a stand for the community and uphold it's integrity is seen as some overzealous, overmoderated, egotistic, site for elitists.
if that's elitist then i'm an elitist and that's just how it is. While I agree that previous TL members have made TL what it is today and you all deserve full credit for bringing your small community to the mainstream, main stream e-sports (atleast in NA) contains BM and smack talk. Try watching Halo or CoD, every frag is accompanied by an insult to the dead players mother or his sexuality. I feel that because of TL's beginnings as a tight nit community, the "old guard" has a very sheltered view and thin skinned view on manners in general. Sooner or later TL will have to deal with the fact that BM is a part of e-sports and a very entertaining part at that. Most casual viewers dont watch e-sports because they can appreciate the finer points of a 45 minute macro game. They watch it for their favourite players and their rivalries or to see people "get owned" etc. The FPS communities as I know them are looked upon as shit compared to TL, same with the WoW community. I don't think that is what we want this to become. I'm not saying we should emmulate those communities, but at the same time TL needs to realise the value of bm/rivalries to e-sports as a whole.
there is a difference between bm and rivalries and being a dick.
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EPT
