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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off.
Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected.
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters.
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Did people actually take that whole "PM Chill to complain" thing seriously? I just assumed it was a joke.
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On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected.
Telling a whole lot of people to harass a moderator should certainly net you some sort of temp ban.
On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters.
There is no drama. Somebody got a temp ban, told a bunch of people to complain to the moderator that banned him, and got his ban extended.
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On May 09 2011 08:41 cheesemaster wrote:
Lindsay lohan is to hollywood as idra is to the sc2 community. And who respects lindsay lohan?
LOL worse comparison ever.
Though you were spot on with him being immature.
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On May 09 2011 09:17 naggerNZ wrote:
Did people actually take that whole "PM Chill to complain" thing seriously? I just assumed it was a joke.
I wouldn't be surprised if they're the same people who actually think the tweet itself was why he received an extension.
Quite a few of them play Zerg and have recently registered, too >.<
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On May 09 2011 09:04 waxypants wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:59 socommaster123 wrote:
Why should Idra change people love or hate him for who he is it's never fair to ask someone to change the internet always seems to find away to eliminate freedom of speech. And it's not just the private internet forums either! I heard that if somebody comes to your house and starts spewing bullshit, you can kick them out! Isn't that just crazy?
Rageomg!!!! Calm sir!
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idrA is to starcraft as brett favre is to football. american people would get it.
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On May 09 2011 08:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:53 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:22 Asparagus wrote:
you can pick apart my very simple examples as much as you want, place them in whatever area you want, be it an alley or a local bar, the mall etc. put the tone in which I'm speaking to my friends about my boss in whatever context or anger, or middle eastern accent, because in simple examples like that you can read it a million ways and have a million different situations and exceptions. just like you can read a million different ways "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you" into whatever action the individual might take towards chill.
Idra didn't give a shit or a second thought as to what those actions may be, that's chills problem and he knew chill would be annoyed. How this relates to trolling, and how if it does relate, cruncher's trolling of idra makes a big difference, as combatex's trolling of incontrol outside of TL jurisdiction brought a ban, it should rightfully be so for cruncher. Let's go over your examples still you are so keen not to do them: A) You would not be charged for murder but you would be charged for involvement and failing to make your actual intentions known, maybe criminally negligent manslaughter if the evidence is bad enough. Probably not since it wasn't your intention for others to hear those words in the first place. B) You would not be charged for anything. AGAIN this relates back to putting a price on someone's head as a comparison to this situation. You are not carrying out the possible death, you are not telling people to carry out the possible death. However you are doing something that will inspire people to hunt this individual down and kill them. You are inciting them to do so, thus you share in the responsibility of that individual's death. So here are the primary things that justify the ban and its extension. A) The ban is completely separated from the lack of streaming. In fact his stream will still be posted as a favored one. This is Idra's personal choice but he deliberately words it as if the ban itself prevents him from playing. B) Idra does not specify the conditions by which anyone should PM Chill. In plainspeak, he doesn't say "PM Chill but please keep it civil"; "PM Chill with evidence and rational arguments showing that Cruncher was stream cheating"; "PM Chill but don't spam him". In a situation like this he takes no responsibility for limiting any potential wrongdoing or absolving himself from any wrongdoing, and at the very least he could do the latter by making his command more descriptive. Which relates back to ----> C) Idra posting this in the public sphere instead of appealing to people close to him to PM him the mods. If he did the latter and Machine and company trolled Chill, he would have the legitimate excuse of "I thought they would be serious but they were just being dicks, I intended for them to do something different". He is smart enough to know that on Twitter he cannot control who reads it and responds to it, but he is responsible for using his brain and not doing anything that could result in bull like this. At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but: D) Idra admits his intentions to Nazgul so any argument about intentions is utterly moot. And most importantly: E) This entire fiasco plays itself out on TL and involves a TL mod being flooded with trolling. Therefore it falls under their jurisdiction to decide his punishment under their own rules. you could have simplified this wall of text and just say "At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but" because that's all that's gotten from it. Intent existed, i'm not denying it. but that alone and being an ass is not deserving of the ban. jesus christ. Are you going to continue to avoid my points or respond to them? Each point covers why the other points cannot be dismissed individually. Also if you actually read the post you'd know that Idra was not "neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances" when he tweeted, which pretty much destroys any scrap of innocence he could claim.
I did read it, but I dismissed your entire argument save 1/5 of the entire conversation with me because all your points consist of either taking mine out of context(hiring assassins, plotting attacks), hanging onto themes i've moved on from to further other examples(price on head, hiring assassins), or making implications based off "he should have known" "he knew fully well" "obviously knowing"
the facts are cruncher trolled idra (look for posts regarding evidence)
IdrA flamed cruncher on TL, got 2dayd. I'm fine with this
IdrA then twitters he won't be streaming, pm chill if this upsets you.
people PM chill.
chill gets mad.
mods ask if IdrA meant that as to annoy chill.
IdrA agrees.
mods see it as trolling chill, asks to apologize and change attitude.
IdrA confirms he will remain forever an asshole.
extended to 90 day ban, though questioned why instead of just perm banning because nothing constructive was ever posted in months+ from him, and that the "final straw" was given to him... a year ago... and 3+ bans ago.
that said, I set examples to show how idra should not be held accountable for the content in the pm, merely that he suggested people pm-bomb him, and questioned how trolling chill is different than cruncher trolling idra. enough with the 2 examples, *in which you're still wrong in the first because you're innocent until proven guilty (but you're one hell of a suspect),and needs concrete evidence linking involvement with murder* it was meant to show intent alone is not enough evidence to convict. i'm repeating myself again because I wrote this 3 times already. adios.
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On May 09 2011 09:19 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected. Telling a whole lot of people to harass a moderator should certainly net you some sort of temp ban. Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters. There is no drama. Somebody got a temp ban, told a bunch of people to complain to the moderator that banned him, and got his ban extended.
You're going to try to convince me that this thread isn't a giant attention whoring waste of time? "Please discuss how we banned IdrA, perhaps the greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time for calling someone a bad name!! Next up, Charlie Sheen shows up wasted to MLG Colombus"
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Obviously there is no way to tell for certain that Cruncher was stream cheating. People claim Cruncher has dual monitors, so he could have been stream cheating without it showing on the stream. Perhaps it would be beneficial if a TL staff member advised Cruncher to exit the stream window instead of minimizing it after he has entered a game wit Idra? This could alleviate the controversy if he tried to snipe Idra on ladder again.
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On May 09 2011 09:24 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:53 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:22 Asparagus wrote:
you can pick apart my very simple examples as much as you want, place them in whatever area you want, be it an alley or a local bar, the mall etc. put the tone in which I'm speaking to my friends about my boss in whatever context or anger, or middle eastern accent, because in simple examples like that you can read it a million ways and have a million different situations and exceptions. just like you can read a million different ways "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you" into whatever action the individual might take towards chill.
Idra didn't give a shit or a second thought as to what those actions may be, that's chills problem and he knew chill would be annoyed. How this relates to trolling, and how if it does relate, cruncher's trolling of idra makes a big difference, as combatex's trolling of incontrol outside of TL jurisdiction brought a ban, it should rightfully be so for cruncher. Let's go over your examples still you are so keen not to do them: A) You would not be charged for murder but you would be charged for involvement and failing to make your actual intentions known, maybe criminally negligent manslaughter if the evidence is bad enough. Probably not since it wasn't your intention for others to hear those words in the first place. B) You would not be charged for anything. AGAIN this relates back to putting a price on someone's head as a comparison to this situation. You are not carrying out the possible death, you are not telling people to carry out the possible death. However you are doing something that will inspire people to hunt this individual down and kill them. You are inciting them to do so, thus you share in the responsibility of that individual's death. So here are the primary things that justify the ban and its extension. A) The ban is completely separated from the lack of streaming. In fact his stream will still be posted as a favored one. This is Idra's personal choice but he deliberately words it as if the ban itself prevents him from playing. B) Idra does not specify the conditions by which anyone should PM Chill. In plainspeak, he doesn't say "PM Chill but please keep it civil"; "PM Chill with evidence and rational arguments showing that Cruncher was stream cheating"; "PM Chill but don't spam him". In a situation like this he takes no responsibility for limiting any potential wrongdoing or absolving himself from any wrongdoing, and at the very least he could do the latter by making his command more descriptive. Which relates back to ----> C) Idra posting this in the public sphere instead of appealing to people close to him to PM him the mods. If he did the latter and Machine and company trolled Chill, he would have the legitimate excuse of "I thought they would be serious but they were just being dicks, I intended for them to do something different". He is smart enough to know that on Twitter he cannot control who reads it and responds to it, but he is responsible for using his brain and not doing anything that could result in bull like this. At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but: D) Idra admits his intentions to Nazgul so any argument about intentions is utterly moot. And most importantly: E) This entire fiasco plays itself out on TL and involves a TL mod being flooded with trolling. Therefore it falls under their jurisdiction to decide his punishment under their own rules. you could have simplified this wall of text and just say "At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but" because that's all that's gotten from it. Intent existed, i'm not denying it. but that alone and being an ass is not deserving of the ban. jesus christ. Are you going to continue to avoid my points or respond to them? Each point covers why the other points cannot be dismissed individually. Also if you actually read the post you'd know that Idra was not "neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances" when he tweeted, which pretty much destroys any scrap of innocence he could claim. I did read it, but I dismissed your entire argument save 1/5 of the entire conversation with me because all your points consist of either taking mine out of context(hiring assassins, plotting attacks), hanging onto themes i've moved on from to further other examples(price on head, hiring assassins), or making implications based off "he should have known" "he knew fully well" "obviously knowing" the facts are cruncher trolled idra (look for posts regarding evidence) IdrA flamed cruncher on TL, got 2dayd. I'm fine with this IdrA then twitters he won't be streaming, pm chill if this upsets you. people PM chill. chill gets mad. mods ask if IdrA meant that as to annoy chill. IdrA agrees. mods see it as trolling chill, asks to apologize and change attitude. IdrA confirms he will remain forever an asshole. extended to 90 day ban, though questioned why instead of just perm banning because nothing constructive was ever posted in months+ from him, and that the "final straw" was given to him... a year ago... and 3+ bans ago. that said, I set examples to show how idra should not be held accountable for the content in the pm, merely that he suggested people pm-bomb him, and questioned how trolling chill is different than cruncher trolling idra. enough with the 2 examples, *in which you're still wrong in the first because you're innocent until proven guilty (but you're one hell of a suspect),and needs concrete evidence linking involvement with murder* it was meant to show intent alone is not enough evidence to convict. i'm repeating myself again because I wrote this 3 times already. adios.
They couldn't care less what the content of the PMs were. IdrA said he was annoying Chill, and that's not a good thing to do.
It's incredibly different from Cruncher. Cruncher is allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream, so long as it doesn't result in something bad happening on the forum. This eventual "indirect" downspiral of events cannot be considered Cruncher's fault because IdrA could easily have avoided the issue if he just didn't post about it.
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Equality may perhaps be a right, but no power on earth can ever turn it into a fact.
idrA being banned is an example.
we are all biased at some point. true nature of humanity is only shown when it's desperate.
no matter what sport it is, players cheat. then we call for fair play, but what makes a man cheat in the first place? can human nature change? why does history repeat? and no lesson is ever learned?
will a moderator ever be fair when judging a friend and a foe? and if he can't be fair in his judgment, how can he be expected to be treated fairly in any aspect of life?
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Canada11385 Posts
On May 09 2011 07:48 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:44 Azarkon wrote:On May 09 2011 07:40 HolyArrow wrote:
Is it really against the rules to "incite" against Chill when the nature of the "inciting" merely entails PMing to protest a ban, which seems to be within the rules of TL? Like someone else said, if a mod bans someone and it is within the rules to PM that mod if one thinks the ban is unjust, it is the mod's burden to deal with those PMs, and even if IdrA wanted to annoy Chill, it was ultimately the actual people who PM'd Chill with the intent to troll who are to blame. Like I said earlier, people could have easily PM'd Chill with rational, well-thought out arguments, and it's not IdrA's fault that many people didn't do that. 1. Idra didn't tell his fans to ask for his unbanning. He told his fans to bitch to Chill about him not streaming for the next two days (which isn't even up to Chill). Read what he said on twitter. 2. The TL staff went and talked to Idra afterward to verify what he wanted to happen. He admitted that he wanted to annoy Chill and that he doesn't regret it. This is the reason for the ban. That's just differences in how we interpret the twitter post. "PM Chill if my ban upsets you" can easily be interpreted as "PM Chill if you think my ban was unjust and want to argue against it". As for point number 2, I have acknowledged the fact that IdrA admitted to intending to annoy Chill. I believe I address that point in the post you quote. The key point here is not solely IdrA's intent - it's whether or not asking people to PM a mod if they think your ban is unjust (even if you intend those PMs to annoy the mod) is against the rules or not, since PMing a mod to express an opinion about a wrongful ban is not against the rules at all.
I know you want to give Idra the benefit of the doubt, but how naive do you think Idra is? I don't particularly like Idra's antics, but he's always struck me as a fellow that knows exactly how his bm is going to make people react and know exactly how the dregs of internet society operate.
He knows the sort of riff-raff he's managed to accumulate as fans. He purposely misled his twitter readers by tying his lack of streaming to his ban. A completely unrelated issue. He's been banned before so he is more than aware that his streaming is unaffected.
So, given that he's purposely misleading his fans and asking them to pm Chill, if they are upset, and he knows the sort of bm'ers he's picked up as fans... what do you think he was hoping would happen? Some sort of reasoned discourse? I feel like you're doing a disservice to Idra by assuming he's so naive. Furthermore, his follow up conversation with the mods puts a nail in a coffin into Idra's supposed naive innonence. "oh my gosh guys, I had no idea people on teh internets would harass a mod" Really? Really???
Furthermore, this whole pming a mod about your ban being completely legit is trying to hard too dodge the bullet. Under normal circumstances, a lone individual would be banned and that lone individual is allowed to pm a mod about their ban. That's the intention of the rule. Idra knows fully well he can pm mods over his ban- he's been banned before on numerous occasions. He knows the drill.
His twitter post was demagoguery to stir up the masses. And no, I don't think Idra is good for esports. People like Boxer and Day9 are good for esports.
And to the others, can the cheating thing finally be layed to rest? Tyler has mentioned that stream sniping is standard fare, there are pics of Cruncher with the volume on mute. Stream sniping is not cheating.
TLDR- Don't make Idra out to be this naive, wide-eyed innocent forum user. He's an old hand, he's been banned numerous times before, he knows the drill, he knows the crowd he's attracted, he just doesn't give a damn. I really feel you're insulting Idra's intelligence to assume anything else.
On May 09 2011 09:17 naggerNZ wrote:
Did people actually take that whole "PM Chill to complain" thing seriously? I just assumed it was a joke.
Yes, +100 pm's within 24 hours. (Can't remember exact numbers.)
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On May 09 2011 09:24 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:19 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected. Telling a whole lot of people to harass a moderator should certainly net you some sort of temp ban. On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters. There is no drama. Somebody got a temp ban, told a bunch of people to complain to the moderator that banned him, and got his ban extended. You're going to try to convince me that this thread isn't a giant attention whoring waste of time? "Please discuss how we banned IdrA, perhaps the greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time for calling someone a bad name!! Next up, Charlie Sheen shows up wasted to MLG Colombus"
Perhaps the greatest SC2 player of all time... hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
You have to be like 12 years old at best.
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On May 09 2011 09:36 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:24 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:19 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected. Telling a whole lot of people to harass a moderator should certainly net you some sort of temp ban. On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters. There is no drama. Somebody got a temp ban, told a bunch of people to complain to the moderator that banned him, and got his ban extended. You're going to try to convince me that this thread isn't a giant attention whoring waste of time? "Please discuss how we banned IdrA, perhaps the greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time for calling someone a bad name!! Next up, Charlie Sheen shows up wasted to MLG Colombus" Perhaps the greatest SC2 player of all time... hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... You have to be like 12 years old at best.
Way to read into the quotation buddy. Obviously it's extreme sarcasm.
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On May 09 2011 09:24 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:19 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected. Telling a whole lot of people to harass a moderator should certainly net you some sort of temp ban. On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters. There is no drama. Somebody got a temp ban, told a bunch of people to complain to the moderator that banned him, and got his ban extended. You're going to try to convince me that this thread isn't a giant attention whoring waste of time? "Please discuss how we banned IdrA, perhaps the greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time for calling someone a bad name!! Next up, Charlie Sheen shows up wasted to MLG Colombus"
imo its intention is transparency of the mod team. i think that is clear.
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On May 09 2011 09:36 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:24 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:19 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected. Telling a whole lot of people to harass a moderator should certainly net you some sort of temp ban. On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters. There is no drama. Somebody got a temp ban, told a bunch of people to complain to the moderator that banned him, and got his ban extended. You're going to try to convince me that this thread isn't a giant attention whoring waste of time? "Please discuss how we banned IdrA, perhaps the greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time for calling someone a bad name!! Next up, Charlie Sheen shows up wasted to MLG Colombus" Perhaps the greatest SC2 player of all time... hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... You have to be like 12 years old at best.
if you're not 12 years old and are on this site. mmm.. then its really sad.
User was banned for this post.
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How can people possibly be saying he only got banned because he is Idra and the mods are just biased.
In what world is Idra telling his twitter followers to message Chill if they disagree with the ban, acceptable in any way? What does it have to do with Idra's fans/followers? Surely it's between Idra and the mods.
Just imagine you got banned for two days, then you started tweeting to all your followers to PM the responsible mod, there's no way you wouldn't get an extended ban. In fact I think if you are not well known in the community then you would get a permanent ban if you tried to pull a stunt like that.
If anything, the mods are being lenient with Idra (That's not an affront to the mods, i am well aware that well known people in the community will get more leniency than Mrbronze with 5 posts).
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On May 09 2011 09:30 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:24 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:53 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:22 Asparagus wrote:
you can pick apart my very simple examples as much as you want, place them in whatever area you want, be it an alley or a local bar, the mall etc. put the tone in which I'm speaking to my friends about my boss in whatever context or anger, or middle eastern accent, because in simple examples like that you can read it a million ways and have a million different situations and exceptions. just like you can read a million different ways "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you" into whatever action the individual might take towards chill.
Idra didn't give a shit or a second thought as to what those actions may be, that's chills problem and he knew chill would be annoyed. How this relates to trolling, and how if it does relate, cruncher's trolling of idra makes a big difference, as combatex's trolling of incontrol outside of TL jurisdiction brought a ban, it should rightfully be so for cruncher. Let's go over your examples still you are so keen not to do them: A) You would not be charged for murder but you would be charged for involvement and failing to make your actual intentions known, maybe criminally negligent manslaughter if the evidence is bad enough. Probably not since it wasn't your intention for others to hear those words in the first place. B) You would not be charged for anything. AGAIN this relates back to putting a price on someone's head as a comparison to this situation. You are not carrying out the possible death, you are not telling people to carry out the possible death. However you are doing something that will inspire people to hunt this individual down and kill them. You are inciting them to do so, thus you share in the responsibility of that individual's death. So here are the primary things that justify the ban and its extension. A) The ban is completely separated from the lack of streaming. In fact his stream will still be posted as a favored one. This is Idra's personal choice but he deliberately words it as if the ban itself prevents him from playing. B) Idra does not specify the conditions by which anyone should PM Chill. In plainspeak, he doesn't say "PM Chill but please keep it civil"; "PM Chill with evidence and rational arguments showing that Cruncher was stream cheating"; "PM Chill but don't spam him". In a situation like this he takes no responsibility for limiting any potential wrongdoing or absolving himself from any wrongdoing, and at the very least he could do the latter by making his command more descriptive. Which relates back to ----> C) Idra posting this in the public sphere instead of appealing to people close to him to PM him the mods. If he did the latter and Machine and company trolled Chill, he would have the legitimate excuse of "I thought they would be serious but they were just being dicks, I intended for them to do something different". He is smart enough to know that on Twitter he cannot control who reads it and responds to it, but he is responsible for using his brain and not doing anything that could result in bull like this. At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but: D) Idra admits his intentions to Nazgul so any argument about intentions is utterly moot. And most importantly: E) This entire fiasco plays itself out on TL and involves a TL mod being flooded with trolling. Therefore it falls under their jurisdiction to decide his punishment under their own rules. you could have simplified this wall of text and just say "At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but" because that's all that's gotten from it. Intent existed, i'm not denying it. but that alone and being an ass is not deserving of the ban. jesus christ. Are you going to continue to avoid my points or respond to them? Each point covers why the other points cannot be dismissed individually. Also if you actually read the post you'd know that Idra was not "neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances" when he tweeted, which pretty much destroys any scrap of innocence he could claim. I did read it, but I dismissed your entire argument save 1/5 of the entire conversation with me because all your points consist of either taking mine out of context(hiring assassins, plotting attacks), hanging onto themes i've moved on from to further other examples(price on head, hiring assassins), or making implications based off "he should have known" "he knew fully well" "obviously knowing" the facts are cruncher trolled idra (look for posts regarding evidence) IdrA flamed cruncher on TL, got 2dayd. I'm fine with this IdrA then twitters he won't be streaming, pm chill if this upsets you. people PM chill. chill gets mad. mods ask if IdrA meant that as to annoy chill. IdrA agrees. mods see it as trolling chill, asks to apologize and change attitude. IdrA confirms he will remain forever an asshole. extended to 90 day ban, though questioned why instead of just perm banning because nothing constructive was ever posted in months+ from him, and that the "final straw" was given to him... a year ago... and 3+ bans ago. that said, I set examples to show how idra should not be held accountable for the content in the pm, merely that he suggested people pm-bomb him, and questioned how trolling chill is different than cruncher trolling idra. enough with the 2 examples, *in which you're still wrong in the first because you're innocent until proven guilty (but you're one hell of a suspect),and needs concrete evidence linking involvement with murder* it was meant to show intent alone is not enough evidence to convict. i'm repeating myself again because I wrote this 3 times already. adios. They couldn't care less what the content of the PMs were. IdrA said he was annoying Chill, and that's not a good thing to do. It's incredibly different from Cruncher. Cruncher is allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream, so long as it doesn't result in something bad happening on the forum. This eventual "indirect" downspiral of events cannot be considered Cruncher's fault because IdrA could easily have avoided the issue if he just didn't post about it.
Why is cruncher allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream and Idra isn't, even if he says he was doing it to annoy Chill? It shouldn't be TL's business to judge peoples actions outside teamliquid, like judge cruncher for stream sniping, cruncher explicitly tells he had harassed Idra, or Idra post a post on twitter. And even if it's TL's business to judge things outside TL.net, then why does not Cruncher being punished for explicit stream sniping(not saying cheating), or telling in interviews about harassing him?
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On May 09 2011 09:24 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:19 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected. Telling a whole lot of people to harass a moderator should certainly net you some sort of temp ban. On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters. There is no drama. Somebody got a temp ban, told a bunch of people to complain to the moderator that banned him, and got his ban extended. You're going to try to convince me that this thread isn't a giant attention whoring waste of time? "Please discuss how we banned IdrA, perhaps the greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time for calling someone a bad name!! Next up, Charlie Sheen shows up wasted to MLG Colombus"
It totally is a waste of time because there is nothing to discuss. However, some people really want to discuss it, so they have created one designated thread to replace the many threads that would have otherwise been made. Technically there was already a designated thread for ban discussion but it would have been swallowed up by the sheer number of posts in here.
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EPT
