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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 09 2011 09:41 tachon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:30 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 09:24 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:53 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:22 Asparagus wrote:
you can pick apart my very simple examples as much as you want, place them in whatever area you want, be it an alley or a local bar, the mall etc. put the tone in which I'm speaking to my friends about my boss in whatever context or anger, or middle eastern accent, because in simple examples like that you can read it a million ways and have a million different situations and exceptions. just like you can read a million different ways "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you" into whatever action the individual might take towards chill.
Idra didn't give a shit or a second thought as to what those actions may be, that's chills problem and he knew chill would be annoyed. How this relates to trolling, and how if it does relate, cruncher's trolling of idra makes a big difference, as combatex's trolling of incontrol outside of TL jurisdiction brought a ban, it should rightfully be so for cruncher. Let's go over your examples still you are so keen not to do them: A) You would not be charged for murder but you would be charged for involvement and failing to make your actual intentions known, maybe criminally negligent manslaughter if the evidence is bad enough. Probably not since it wasn't your intention for others to hear those words in the first place. B) You would not be charged for anything. AGAIN this relates back to putting a price on someone's head as a comparison to this situation. You are not carrying out the possible death, you are not telling people to carry out the possible death. However you are doing something that will inspire people to hunt this individual down and kill them. You are inciting them to do so, thus you share in the responsibility of that individual's death. So here are the primary things that justify the ban and its extension. A) The ban is completely separated from the lack of streaming. In fact his stream will still be posted as a favored one. This is Idra's personal choice but he deliberately words it as if the ban itself prevents him from playing. B) Idra does not specify the conditions by which anyone should PM Chill. In plainspeak, he doesn't say "PM Chill but please keep it civil"; "PM Chill with evidence and rational arguments showing that Cruncher was stream cheating"; "PM Chill but don't spam him". In a situation like this he takes no responsibility for limiting any potential wrongdoing or absolving himself from any wrongdoing, and at the very least he could do the latter by making his command more descriptive. Which relates back to ----> C) Idra posting this in the public sphere instead of appealing to people close to him to PM him the mods. If he did the latter and Machine and company trolled Chill, he would have the legitimate excuse of "I thought they would be serious but they were just being dicks, I intended for them to do something different". He is smart enough to know that on Twitter he cannot control who reads it and responds to it, but he is responsible for using his brain and not doing anything that could result in bull like this. At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but: D) Idra admits his intentions to Nazgul so any argument about intentions is utterly moot. And most importantly: E) This entire fiasco plays itself out on TL and involves a TL mod being flooded with trolling. Therefore it falls under their jurisdiction to decide his punishment under their own rules. you could have simplified this wall of text and just say "At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but" because that's all that's gotten from it. Intent existed, i'm not denying it. but that alone and being an ass is not deserving of the ban. jesus christ. Are you going to continue to avoid my points or respond to them? Each point covers why the other points cannot be dismissed individually. Also if you actually read the post you'd know that Idra was not "neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances" when he tweeted, which pretty much destroys any scrap of innocence he could claim. I did read it, but I dismissed your entire argument save 1/5 of the entire conversation with me because all your points consist of either taking mine out of context(hiring assassins, plotting attacks), hanging onto themes i've moved on from to further other examples(price on head, hiring assassins), or making implications based off "he should have known" "he knew fully well" "obviously knowing" the facts are cruncher trolled idra (look for posts regarding evidence) IdrA flamed cruncher on TL, got 2dayd. I'm fine with this IdrA then twitters he won't be streaming, pm chill if this upsets you. people PM chill. chill gets mad. mods ask if IdrA meant that as to annoy chill. IdrA agrees. mods see it as trolling chill, asks to apologize and change attitude. IdrA confirms he will remain forever an asshole. extended to 90 day ban, though questioned why instead of just perm banning because nothing constructive was ever posted in months+ from him, and that the "final straw" was given to him... a year ago... and 3+ bans ago. that said, I set examples to show how idra should not be held accountable for the content in the pm, merely that he suggested people pm-bomb him, and questioned how trolling chill is different than cruncher trolling idra. enough with the 2 examples, *in which you're still wrong in the first because you're innocent until proven guilty (but you're one hell of a suspect),and needs concrete evidence linking involvement with murder* it was meant to show intent alone is not enough evidence to convict. i'm repeating myself again because I wrote this 3 times already. adios. They couldn't care less what the content of the PMs were. IdrA said he was annoying Chill, and that's not a good thing to do. It's incredibly different from Cruncher. Cruncher is allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream, so long as it doesn't result in something bad happening on the forum. This eventual "indirect" downspiral of events cannot be considered Cruncher's fault because IdrA could easily have avoided the issue if he just didn't post about it. Why is cruncher allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream and Idra isn't, even if he says he was doing it to annoy Chill? It shouldn't be TL's business to judge peoples actions outside teamliquid, like judge cruncher for stream sniping, cruncher explicitly tells he had harassed Idra, or Idra post a post on twitter. And even if it's TL's business to judge things outside TL.net, then why does not Cruncher being punished for explicit stream sniping(not saying cheating), or telling in interviews about harassing him?
One of them said to the moderators' faces "I'm doing this to annoy you". The other one didn't. Which one is trolling on-site?
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I think it is a big loss for teamliquid, there are already too few pro s posting here and you guys are banning them.
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On May 09 2011 09:36 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:24 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:19 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 09:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 09:03 Slipspace wrote:On May 09 2011 08:54 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:49 Slipspace wrote:
looks like attention whoring to me
IdrA has and always will be the way he is and obviously was angry after losing a game because Cruncher had the stream open (not that you can completely blame him, but still its cheating)
apparently you guys don't watch orb's stream because he bashes people literally every other game
either ban him permanently or stop creating these giant drama fiasco's that serve no purpose other than to gather attention
edit: just re-read the tweet and he said "PM chill if this upsets you"
apparently this site not only has a G rated language filter but also personal grudges can merit bans because feedback is not allowed Feedback is not asking a bunch of people to mob a mod with PMs. Also, as far as I know, warnings are personal, so how can a third party (someone who read Idra's twitter) PM a mod with a complain about something he knows nothing about? He said "PM chill if this upsets you," which is hardly "asking a bunch of people to mob a mod." The warning was for a silly reason. Being upset is justified. It's not like he posted a thread and said those words, he said it after a sniped/stream cheated loss which is not saved anywhere on TL and was warned for it. But that's fine if that's the rules of the site. And seeing as he has an endless list of violations, ban the guy permanently and stop masquerading around these drama filled idra-related fiascos obviously trying to draw attention. On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. Obviously it was to annoy him, because Chill annoyed him for the terribly unjustified "warn." That doesn't mean feedback should be rejected. Telling a whole lot of people to harass a moderator should certainly net you some sort of temp ban. On May 09 2011 09:17 Slipspace wrote:
And you're also dancing around the subject of this whole retarded drama fiasco. This thread for starters. There is no drama. Somebody got a temp ban, told a bunch of people to complain to the moderator that banned him, and got his ban extended. You're going to try to convince me that this thread isn't a giant attention whoring waste of time? "Please discuss how we banned IdrA, perhaps the greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time for calling someone a bad name!! Next up, Charlie Sheen shows up wasted to MLG Colombus" Perhaps the greatest SC2 player of all time... hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... You have to be like 12 years old at best.
Hey bro, let's all be friends here. You don't need to attack other people because their opinions differ from yours. If you have mean things to say, keep them to yourself please 
Your post and this thread make me wonder why we all can't be civil to one another... or at least try to be kinder, better people!
I'll keep trying to spread the love ^__^ I hope everyone takes this Cruncher's actions, Idra's action, Chill's actions, etc. etc. etc. as the end of a period of mass b.s.'ing and tries to start being more civil to one another by showing each other the respect we deserve. After all, aren't we all still gamers? humans? living beings?
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idra's user stream, does that mean it won't be featured anymore?
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On May 09 2011 09:50 Silentenigma wrote:
I think it is a big loss for teamliquid, there are already too few pro s posting here and you guys are banning them.
Idra rarely posts anything of value on this site anymore. No big loss there imo.
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I like it when idra BM's the moderators, to me its funny. Im sure its even funny for them too. But i kinda agree with the decision made here since its one thing to take BM from one guy but its another thing when that person has fans/following and asks them to chip in.
I do think 90 days is a little harsh. Not on idra but on us.
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On May 09 2011 09:46 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:41 tachon wrote:On May 09 2011 09:30 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 09:24 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:53 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:22 Asparagus wrote:
you can pick apart my very simple examples as much as you want, place them in whatever area you want, be it an alley or a local bar, the mall etc. put the tone in which I'm speaking to my friends about my boss in whatever context or anger, or middle eastern accent, because in simple examples like that you can read it a million ways and have a million different situations and exceptions. just like you can read a million different ways "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you" into whatever action the individual might take towards chill.
Idra didn't give a shit or a second thought as to what those actions may be, that's chills problem and he knew chill would be annoyed. How this relates to trolling, and how if it does relate, cruncher's trolling of idra makes a big difference, as combatex's trolling of incontrol outside of TL jurisdiction brought a ban, it should rightfully be so for cruncher. Let's go over your examples still you are so keen not to do them: A) You would not be charged for murder but you would be charged for involvement and failing to make your actual intentions known, maybe criminally negligent manslaughter if the evidence is bad enough. Probably not since it wasn't your intention for others to hear those words in the first place. B) You would not be charged for anything. AGAIN this relates back to putting a price on someone's head as a comparison to this situation. You are not carrying out the possible death, you are not telling people to carry out the possible death. However you are doing something that will inspire people to hunt this individual down and kill them. You are inciting them to do so, thus you share in the responsibility of that individual's death. So here are the primary things that justify the ban and its extension. A) The ban is completely separated from the lack of streaming. In fact his stream will still be posted as a favored one. This is Idra's personal choice but he deliberately words it as if the ban itself prevents him from playing. B) Idra does not specify the conditions by which anyone should PM Chill. In plainspeak, he doesn't say "PM Chill but please keep it civil"; "PM Chill with evidence and rational arguments showing that Cruncher was stream cheating"; "PM Chill but don't spam him". In a situation like this he takes no responsibility for limiting any potential wrongdoing or absolving himself from any wrongdoing, and at the very least he could do the latter by making his command more descriptive. Which relates back to ----> C) Idra posting this in the public sphere instead of appealing to people close to him to PM him the mods. If he did the latter and Machine and company trolled Chill, he would have the legitimate excuse of "I thought they would be serious but they were just being dicks, I intended for them to do something different". He is smart enough to know that on Twitter he cannot control who reads it and responds to it, but he is responsible for using his brain and not doing anything that could result in bull like this. At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but: D) Idra admits his intentions to Nazgul so any argument about intentions is utterly moot. And most importantly: E) This entire fiasco plays itself out on TL and involves a TL mod being flooded with trolling. Therefore it falls under their jurisdiction to decide his punishment under their own rules. you could have simplified this wall of text and just say "At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but" because that's all that's gotten from it. Intent existed, i'm not denying it. but that alone and being an ass is not deserving of the ban. jesus christ. Are you going to continue to avoid my points or respond to them? Each point covers why the other points cannot be dismissed individually. Also if you actually read the post you'd know that Idra was not "neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances" when he tweeted, which pretty much destroys any scrap of innocence he could claim. I did read it, but I dismissed your entire argument save 1/5 of the entire conversation with me because all your points consist of either taking mine out of context(hiring assassins, plotting attacks), hanging onto themes i've moved on from to further other examples(price on head, hiring assassins), or making implications based off "he should have known" "he knew fully well" "obviously knowing" the facts are cruncher trolled idra (look for posts regarding evidence) IdrA flamed cruncher on TL, got 2dayd. I'm fine with this IdrA then twitters he won't be streaming, pm chill if this upsets you. people PM chill. chill gets mad. mods ask if IdrA meant that as to annoy chill. IdrA agrees. mods see it as trolling chill, asks to apologize and change attitude. IdrA confirms he will remain forever an asshole. extended to 90 day ban, though questioned why instead of just perm banning because nothing constructive was ever posted in months+ from him, and that the "final straw" was given to him... a year ago... and 3+ bans ago. that said, I set examples to show how idra should not be held accountable for the content in the pm, merely that he suggested people pm-bomb him, and questioned how trolling chill is different than cruncher trolling idra. enough with the 2 examples, *in which you're still wrong in the first because you're innocent until proven guilty (but you're one hell of a suspect),and needs concrete evidence linking involvement with murder* it was meant to show intent alone is not enough evidence to convict. i'm repeating myself again because I wrote this 3 times already. adios. They couldn't care less what the content of the PMs were. IdrA said he was annoying Chill, and that's not a good thing to do. It's incredibly different from Cruncher. Cruncher is allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream, so long as it doesn't result in something bad happening on the forum. This eventual "indirect" downspiral of events cannot be considered Cruncher's fault because IdrA could easily have avoided the issue if he just didn't post about it. Why is cruncher allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream and Idra isn't, even if he says he was doing it to annoy Chill? It shouldn't be TL's business to judge peoples actions outside teamliquid, like judge cruncher for stream sniping, cruncher explicitly tells he had harassed Idra, or Idra post a post on twitter. And even if it's TL's business to judge things outside TL.net, then why does not Cruncher being punished for explicit stream sniping(not saying cheating), or telling in interviews about harassing him? One of them said to the moderators' faces "I'm doing this to annoy you". The other one didn't. Which one is trolling on-site?
Why does it matter if you insult one directly? If he said "I'm doing this to annoy chill", then it would be cool? Cruncher has clearly harassed Idra, and Idra harassed Chill, but I think both Idra and Cruncher should be punished by your logic, if it doesn't matter outside of tl.net's borders. If both players harassed outside tl.net and only one gets punished, then I don't understand how this system works, on tl.net.
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Idra must have been using "stim pack" nowadays.... ㅋㅋㅋ
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On May 09 2011 09:41 hackmed wrote:
How can people possibly be saying he only got banned because he is Idra and the mods are just biased.
In what world is Idra telling his twitter followers to message Chill if they disagree with the ban, acceptable in any way? What does it have to do with Idra's fans/followers? Surely it's between Idra and the mods.
Just imagine you got banned for two days, then you started tweeting to all your followers to PM the responsible mod, there's no way you wouldn't get an extended ban. In fact I think if you are not well known in the community then you would get a permanent ban if you tried to pull a stunt like that.
If anything, the mods are being lenient with Idra (That's not an affront to the mods, i am well aware that well known people in the community will get more leniency than Mrbronze with 5 posts).
Much worse things have been said on TL than saying someone is "a waste of life" and there were no repercussions. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that phrase were used verbatim and simply ignored.
One thing that stand out in particular with regards to moderation is that homophobic language is not treated the same as racist language. Few would even bat an eye at "My opponent did this gay cannon rush", mods especially, but imagine if someone said something like "my opponent was such a nigger that last game". The response from the community would be completely different. But the inconsistency in moderation in those regards is quite a tangent.
I would be more than willing to be that I could create a handful of accounts and use Idra's quote in various places around these forums and not get banned for it. Was Idra banned specifically because he said it to another foreign player? What if it was said to another forum poster, or to an unnamed opponent when a poster was sharing a replay? Or what if it was to another non-foreign progamer, past or present, like Bitbybit perhaps? How universal are the rules against calling someone a waste of life?
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I dont really understand the need to even ban him for 2 days, isnt there something called freedom of speech, all he did was state his opinion about another player, I dont get the big deal at all. I think banning him is rather silly and to be frank I would much rather read a poor post by Idra then almost anyone else, since he is pretty much the best foreign player. And regarding the 90 day ban, he was upset he got banned and vented about it on twitter... so what? The only reason it even had an effect is because he is so popular... Honestly to me this is about the moderators saying to Idra that they can shit on him if they want to and he can't do anything about it, it is out of spite. You want Idra to kiss your ass and he isn't, so you ban him? Very poor decision in my opinion.
I think Idra adds more to the competitive community then nearly anyone else, and nearly as much as people like Day9, Artosis and Tasteless add to the Starcraft 2 community in general.
I fail to see how Idra is rager/flamer/etc. he simply states his honest opinions, he is refreshing. I can understand banning for flaming or trolling, but Idra sincerely thinks Cruncher is a very bad player... he might have used remotely colorful language but who cares?
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When someone publicly streams their games, they open themselves up to this kind of "cheating".
If you don't like it, don't stream.
Case closed.
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On May 09 2011 08:22 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:16 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:11 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:54 Thermia wrote:I'm not sure it's the best policy to ban people for things they do off the site, but I guess it's *somewhat* justified since the mods asked if he regretted saying things/won't change his behavior. Although, let's be real here, I don't think anyone at all expected a different answer to those questions. It seems like Idra has a history of making insulting posts, being temp banned (sometimes with a snide or possibly rude comment from the mod doing it), and then Idra insulting said mod when he is back. It just creates a cycle that Idra doesn't care to break, and TL cannot break because it would compromise their forum standards TL has a history of banning people for things they do off the site. Combat-Ex was banned for harassing Incontrol on SC2. 4 people were banned for leaving someone stranded at a lan.[ how do i search for this on TL? super curious Community Ban (link)There it is! On May 09 2011 08:13 turdburgler wrote:On May 09 2011 08:12 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to. IdrA said he intended to annoy Chill and did not regret it. On the forums. For the last time, they did not ban him merely because of his twitter post. idra did his 'annoying' over twitter though. and TL shouldnt be trying to police the internet, especially if its just a personal spat between 2 people. It doesn't matter where the actual thing happened. Saying on TL that you did it to annoy somebody on the forums is trolling in itself. oh wow. thanks for the link came for idra, left with insane story
Holy s**t, that was a insane story..
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On May 09 2011 10:02 tachon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:46 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 09:41 tachon wrote:On May 09 2011 09:30 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 09:24 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:53 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 08:22 Asparagus wrote:
you can pick apart my very simple examples as much as you want, place them in whatever area you want, be it an alley or a local bar, the mall etc. put the tone in which I'm speaking to my friends about my boss in whatever context or anger, or middle eastern accent, because in simple examples like that you can read it a million ways and have a million different situations and exceptions. just like you can read a million different ways "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you" into whatever action the individual might take towards chill.
Idra didn't give a shit or a second thought as to what those actions may be, that's chills problem and he knew chill would be annoyed. How this relates to trolling, and how if it does relate, cruncher's trolling of idra makes a big difference, as combatex's trolling of incontrol outside of TL jurisdiction brought a ban, it should rightfully be so for cruncher. Let's go over your examples still you are so keen not to do them: A) You would not be charged for murder but you would be charged for involvement and failing to make your actual intentions known, maybe criminally negligent manslaughter if the evidence is bad enough. Probably not since it wasn't your intention for others to hear those words in the first place. B) You would not be charged for anything. AGAIN this relates back to putting a price on someone's head as a comparison to this situation. You are not carrying out the possible death, you are not telling people to carry out the possible death. However you are doing something that will inspire people to hunt this individual down and kill them. You are inciting them to do so, thus you share in the responsibility of that individual's death. So here are the primary things that justify the ban and its extension. A) The ban is completely separated from the lack of streaming. In fact his stream will still be posted as a favored one. This is Idra's personal choice but he deliberately words it as if the ban itself prevents him from playing. B) Idra does not specify the conditions by which anyone should PM Chill. In plainspeak, he doesn't say "PM Chill but please keep it civil"; "PM Chill with evidence and rational arguments showing that Cruncher was stream cheating"; "PM Chill but don't spam him". In a situation like this he takes no responsibility for limiting any potential wrongdoing or absolving himself from any wrongdoing, and at the very least he could do the latter by making his command more descriptive. Which relates back to ----> C) Idra posting this in the public sphere instead of appealing to people close to him to PM him the mods. If he did the latter and Machine and company trolled Chill, he would have the legitimate excuse of "I thought they would be serious but they were just being dicks, I intended for them to do something different". He is smart enough to know that on Twitter he cannot control who reads it and responds to it, but he is responsible for using his brain and not doing anything that could result in bull like this. At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but: D) Idra admits his intentions to Nazgul so any argument about intentions is utterly moot. And most importantly: E) This entire fiasco plays itself out on TL and involves a TL mod being flooded with trolling. Therefore it falls under their jurisdiction to decide his punishment under their own rules. you could have simplified this wall of text and just say "At the very least he's neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances but" because that's all that's gotten from it. Intent existed, i'm not denying it. but that alone and being an ass is not deserving of the ban. jesus christ. Are you going to continue to avoid my points or respond to them? Each point covers why the other points cannot be dismissed individually. Also if you actually read the post you'd know that Idra was not "neglectful and ignorant of his circumstances" when he tweeted, which pretty much destroys any scrap of innocence he could claim. I did read it, but I dismissed your entire argument save 1/5 of the entire conversation with me because all your points consist of either taking mine out of context(hiring assassins, plotting attacks), hanging onto themes i've moved on from to further other examples(price on head, hiring assassins), or making implications based off "he should have known" "he knew fully well" "obviously knowing" the facts are cruncher trolled idra (look for posts regarding evidence) IdrA flamed cruncher on TL, got 2dayd. I'm fine with this IdrA then twitters he won't be streaming, pm chill if this upsets you. people PM chill. chill gets mad. mods ask if IdrA meant that as to annoy chill. IdrA agrees. mods see it as trolling chill, asks to apologize and change attitude. IdrA confirms he will remain forever an asshole. extended to 90 day ban, though questioned why instead of just perm banning because nothing constructive was ever posted in months+ from him, and that the "final straw" was given to him... a year ago... and 3+ bans ago. that said, I set examples to show how idra should not be held accountable for the content in the pm, merely that he suggested people pm-bomb him, and questioned how trolling chill is different than cruncher trolling idra. enough with the 2 examples, *in which you're still wrong in the first because you're innocent until proven guilty (but you're one hell of a suspect),and needs concrete evidence linking involvement with murder* it was meant to show intent alone is not enough evidence to convict. i'm repeating myself again because I wrote this 3 times already. adios. They couldn't care less what the content of the PMs were. IdrA said he was annoying Chill, and that's not a good thing to do. It's incredibly different from Cruncher. Cruncher is allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream, so long as it doesn't result in something bad happening on the forum. This eventual "indirect" downspiral of events cannot be considered Cruncher's fault because IdrA could easily have avoided the issue if he just didn't post about it. Why is cruncher allowed to do whatever he wants on his stream and Idra isn't, even if he says he was doing it to annoy Chill? It shouldn't be TL's business to judge peoples actions outside teamliquid, like judge cruncher for stream sniping, cruncher explicitly tells he had harassed Idra, or Idra post a post on twitter. And even if it's TL's business to judge things outside TL.net, then why does not Cruncher being punished for explicit stream sniping(not saying cheating), or telling in interviews about harassing him? One of them said to the moderators' faces "I'm doing this to annoy you". The other one didn't. Which one is trolling on-site? Why does it matter if you insult one directly? If he said "I'm doing this to annoy chill", then it would be cool? Cruncher has clearly harassed Idra, as Idra harassed Chill, but I think both should be punished by your logic, if it doesn't matter outside of tl.net's borders. If both players harassed outside tl.net and only one gets punished, then I don't understand how this system works, on tl.net.
It's not the harassment itself. It's the intention and the blatant admission of the harassment that warrants a ban. If IdrA said "I was just venting on Twitter", then maybe you would have a point.
And by "to the moderators' faces", I literally mean on the Team Liquid website. There's a difference between trolling on a Justin.tv stream and trolling on TL in regards to the obligations for moderators to carry out their jurisdiction.
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Strange how he feels he can get away with that?...
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On May 09 2011 10:03 0001001000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 09:41 hackmed wrote:
How can people possibly be saying he only got banned because he is Idra and the mods are just biased.
In what world is Idra telling his twitter followers to message Chill if they disagree with the ban, acceptable in any way? What does it have to do with Idra's fans/followers? Surely it's between Idra and the mods.
Just imagine you got banned for two days, then you started tweeting to all your followers to PM the responsible mod, there's no way you wouldn't get an extended ban. In fact I think if you are not well known in the community then you would get a permanent ban if you tried to pull a stunt like that.
If anything, the mods are being lenient with Idra (That's not an affront to the mods, i am well aware that well known people in the community will get more leniency than Mrbronze with 5 posts).
Much worse things have been said on TL than saying someone is "a waste of life" and there were no repercussions. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that phrase were used verbatim and simply ignored. One thing that stand out in particular with regards to moderation is that homophobic language is not treated the same as racist language. Few would even bat an eye at "My opponent did this gay cannon rush", mods especially, but imagine if someone said something like "my opponent was such a nigger that last game". The response from the community would be completely different. But the inconsistency in moderation in those regards is quite a tangent. I would be more than willing to be that I could create a handful of accounts and use Idra's quote in various places around these forums and not get banned for it. Was Idra banned specifically because he said it to another foreign player? What if it was said to another forum poster, or to an unnamed opponent when a poster was sharing a replay? Or what if it was to another non-foreign progamer, past or present, like Bitbybit perhaps? How universal are the rules against calling someone a waste of life?
I was talking about the 90 day ban, not the 2 day ban, i find it hard to believe that all this drama is around the 2 day ban when other similar Idra posts have also had him short bans (with no such drama).
Sure i bet people have said worse than "you're a waste of life" and gone unpunished, but at the same time posts which may seem ever lighter may have got a ban as well. Different mods will see different posts, some may feel that something crossed the line while another will think it merely dances on the line.
The moderation team isn't an autonomous system banning only that which breaks the exact definition of the rules, each mod as an individual with their own decisions and interpretations.
And even if the 2 day ban was unfair, that doesn't justify his tweet.
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Canada11258 Posts
On May 09 2011 10:04 Jyxz wrote:
I dont really understand the need to even ban him for 2 days, isnt there something called freedom of speech, all he did was state his opinion about another player, I dont get the big deal at all. I think banning him is rather silly and to be frank I would much rather read a poor post by Idra then almost anyone else, since he is pretty much the best foreign player. And regarding the 90 day ban, he was upset he got banned and vented about it on twitter... so what? The only reason it even had an effect is because he is so popular... Honestly to me this is about the moderators saying to Idra that they can shit on him if they want to and he can't do anything about it, it is out of spite. You want Idra to kiss your ass and he isn't, so you ban him? Very poor decision in my opinion.
I think Idra adds more to the competitive community then nearly anyone else, and nearly as much as people like Day9, Artosis and Tasteless add to the Starcraft 2 community in general.
I fail to see how Idra is rager/flamer/etc. he simply states his honest opinions, he is refreshing. I can understand banning for flaming or trolling, but Idra sincerely thinks Cruncher is a very bad player... he might have used remotely colorful language but who cares?
I would ask you to consider the destination if Team Liquid would go down this path of 'free speech.' I've come from some real hell-hole forums where insults were standard fare and mods and admins frequently banned each other. And another forum where the website disowned the forum and started a new one, while the trolls continued to run rampant in the old one, creating their own 'mods' until the forum disintegrated in anarchy... but they had freedom of speech. Team Liquid has always stood out as a lonely fortress of reason and mannered opinion in a wilderness of crap. TL seems much more lenient and accommodating then when I first started lurking, but I for one don't want to got down the road where respected community members are allowed to start flame wars on TL's forum. If it must be done, save it for the streaming and in-game chat.
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On May 08 2011 07:00 Saturnize wrote:
Why don't you just pull the trigger and perma ban him already?
Besides the fact it's not their status quo, it wouldn't be good for the community unless he did something so completely outlandish it warranted something that extreme. While some of his antics are pretty bm, they rarely are malicious. This who spamming a mod thing is the first time I can think of him doing something malicious to anyone.
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On May 09 2011 10:04 Jyxz wrote:
I dont really understand the need to even ban him for 2 days, isnt there something called freedom of speech, all he did was state his opinion about another player, I dont get the big deal at all. I think banning him is rather silly and to be frank I would much rather read a poor post by Idra then almost anyone else, since he is pretty much the best foreign player. And regarding the 90 day ban, he was upset he got banned and vented about it on twitter... so what? The only reason it even had an effect is because he is so popular... Honestly to me this is about the moderators saying to Idra that they can shit on him if they want to and he can't do anything about it, it is out of spite. You want Idra to kiss your ass and he isn't, so you ban him? Very poor decision in my opinion.
I think Idra adds more to the competitive community then nearly anyone else, and nearly as much as people like Day9, Artosis and Tasteless add to the Starcraft 2 community in general.
I fail to see how Idra is rager/flamer/etc. he simply states his honest opinions, he is refreshing. I can understand banning for flaming or trolling, but Idra sincerely thinks Cruncher is a very bad player... he might have used remotely colorful language but who cares?
So you're okay with someone insulting someone else, as long as he's a good player?... sigh... don't go down that road please... no one should let other people randomnly mistreat or insult them, simply because they're better at something.
And you really can't see how he's a flamer?? Just read his posts, they go back a long time.
Expressing your opinions is ok everywhere, but there's a broad spectrum of ways to express them, and some are clearly not ok.
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On May 09 2011 10:15 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 10:04 Jyxz wrote:
I dont really understand the need to even ban him for 2 days, isnt there something called freedom of speech, all he did was state his opinion about another player, I dont get the big deal at all. I think banning him is rather silly and to be frank I would much rather read a poor post by Idra then almost anyone else, since he is pretty much the best foreign player. And regarding the 90 day ban, he was upset he got banned and vented about it on twitter... so what? The only reason it even had an effect is because he is so popular... Honestly to me this is about the moderators saying to Idra that they can shit on him if they want to and he can't do anything about it, it is out of spite. You want Idra to kiss your ass and he isn't, so you ban him? Very poor decision in my opinion.
I think Idra adds more to the competitive community then nearly anyone else, and nearly as much as people like Day9, Artosis and Tasteless add to the Starcraft 2 community in general.
I fail to see how Idra is rager/flamer/etc. he simply states his honest opinions, he is refreshing. I can understand banning for flaming or trolling, but Idra sincerely thinks Cruncher is a very bad player... he might have used remotely colorful language but who cares? I would ask you to consider the destination if Team Liquid would go down this path of 'free speech.' I've come from some real hell-hole forums where insults were standard fare and mods and admins frequently banned each other. And another forum where the website disowned the forum and started a new one, while the trolls continued to run rampant in the old one, creating their own 'mods' until the forum disintegrated in anarchy... but they had freedom of speech. Team Liquid has always stood out as a lonely fortress of reason and mannered opinion in a wilderness of crap. TL seems much more lenient and accommodating then when I first started lurking, but I for one don't want to got down the road where respected community members are allowed to start flame wars on TL's forum. If it must be done, save it for the streaming and in-game chat.
Just from your description I know you are talking about the LUE/LUElinks split, and LUElinks is infinitely better than GFaqsLUE
Anyways, TL is not America - they have no requirement to uphold the 1st Amendment. Idra is annoying, he rallies up all his sycophants to be equally annoying, and admits as such. He doesn't really post at all on the forums besides to flame people or bitch about Zerg, so its not like the ban even matters to him, as long as his stream is still linked here.
I imagine if he slips up again he'll be IP-banned and his stream removed from the featured streams
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Its a shame, the whole "sniping" misunderstanding:
Cruncher meant that he only clicked search when Idra did, not that he listened to the stream.
He also mentioned specifically that he muted Idra's stream, but there is no evidence as to whether or not he unmuted after.
So basically nobody but Cruncher knows if he cheated.
Idra was wrong to state he was cheating with no evidence which was probably a product of his hotheadedness.
But was Idra really harassing Chill? He might've not meant to literally PM Chill, he may have just meant that Chill was the one who decided to ban Idra.
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EPT
