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Gay StarCraft Players - Page 117

Forum Index > TL Community
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Don't post in this thread to say "gay gamers are like everyone else, why do they have a special thread?" It is something that has been posted numerous times, and this isn't the place for that discussion.

For regular posters, don't quote the trolls.
adrenaLinG
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada676 Posts
September 14 2011 21:04 GMT
#2321
On September 15 2011 01:59 matjlav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 12:36 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:21 matjlav wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:00 GDR wrote:
I can't imagine myself ever wanting to be straight. I like men. I can't imagine myself liking woman - sexually - there nether regions actually disgust me. This would prevent me from ever even thinking such a thing. So the idea that I would want to be "cured" is a bit ridiculous.

As far as what happens to a baby, I think that is the parents choice, just like I wouldn't object to an abortion I wouldn't object to what you purpose. It would be unfortunate, and maybe make the lives of gay people harder down the road, but it wouldn't really be my place to tell soon-to-be parents what I think is right when I myself have no plans to raise any children.


You're saying this as an open and comfortable gay person. However, I know for a fact that there are tons of closeted guys that would love nothing more than to be able to be straight just like everyone else.


If you take a child, lock them in a closet and beat them daily, screaming at them "YOU ARE NOT A BOY, I DO NOT LOVE YOU" this will make them wish they wern't a girl. This does not mean it is better to be a boy. That behaviour is what gays have to deal with daily. I am constantly reminded that what I am is not considered normal. For someone without the support network I have, I can definitely see how that would make them feel awful and want to be a different person. It isnt their defect, it is the perverse, cruel way others judge and view the world. Everybody's journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many people consider it a disease, consider it something to hate and fear, says more about them than it does about homosexuality.


I agree with everything you just said. But if an adult homosexual person were to opt into a proven effective treatment to be changed from homosexual into heterosexual, then do we have the right to keep them from doing so because we think that they shouldn't want to be heterosexual? Would it even be wrong of them to want to be heterosexual?


Yes, we would, because it would be in the interests of their personal and mental health to be denied this treatment given the "success rate" of these procedures.

"Ex-gay" or "reparative therapy" is neither proven or effective, so your hypothetical is certainly moot from the very initial premise.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
diverzee
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden992 Posts
September 14 2011 21:16 GMT
#2322
On September 14 2011 21:02 ayaz2810 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 12:32 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 10:58 ayaz2810 wrote:
I have a difficult question for you folks. Let me see if I can make my point without this coming out wrong.

I am a very logical and science oriented individual. I have always been interested in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. I was a pre-med student until lack of funds ended that dream. Because of this, and the fact that our species contains both males and females for reproduction, it would seem to me that homosexuality is something of a... this is where it gets tricky... a genetic mental defect. I don't mean that to sound as if one person is less than another because of their attraction to one sex over the other. I think of it in terms of something like a birth defect. Like being born with webbed toes or something. I say this because we are obviously designed to reproduce sexually, and that takes a member of both sexes. For that to be altered in a human brain would seem to go against our evolution.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to approach this from an unbiased, biological point of view. I have no problem with homosexuals at all personally.

So now my question: If there were an "antidote" for people who were currently gay, and perhaps a test for pregnant women that would reveal homosexuality in utero, and then be "treated", what would the gay community think? Obviously you can really speak only for yourselves, but you can probably speculate based on people that you know.

I'll refrain from inserting my own thoughts, because I'm fairly sure someone will say exactly what I'm thinking.




yaaaayyyy~~~~!!!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN (I never get tired of this ride)

basically, what we have here is a classic argument ad ignorantiam. You hide it well, and seem really thoughtful, so no insult is intended, but basically, you say that "because I cannot fathom a reason how homosexuality can be benificial to reproduction, it isnt and therefore must be a defect". This is also a major unstated false premise in that the assumption is that anything that doesn't directly contribute to penis inserted into vagina and semen being injected into uterus to provide seed for life is not evolutionarily advantageous. The second unstated false premise is that something that anything that negatively affects reproduction is a defect. We will explore both realms shortly.

First, it has been posted many, many, many times (more latin: ad nauseum, or literally, so much so that I am sick of typing it) that it is not excluded from the realm of scientific probability and EXISTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY that homosexuality can benifit the species or "herd" if you will. Basically, read back and try and find it, sift through the rainbows, glitter and tight leather pants. Its in there, I assure you. The tl;dr version is that, grandmother theory (excess men incapable of reproduction increases the number of people capable of taking care of young and thereby increases their chance of survival) and "gay boyfriend" theory (excess men allow for the strongest men to have multiple children in multiple women, increasing their virulence and giving the women the ability to still raise young with a partner). There are lots more theories, some better than others. Basically, none of them are able to be proven, but there are plenty of ways in which we can imagine homosexuality being a positive force in a society, if not in an individual's chance of reproduction.

Part two. Is homosexuality a defect. I think I answered that pretty well. No. Homosexuality is a part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality. I think modern medicinal science is too quick to label defects and at any rate, there are no signs of defective genetic markers or anything related in homosexuality.

As for your anditode questions. For the reasons mentioned above, no. Besides, who would make your clothes?

It is a great question and brings up the ethics of this sort of questioning. If we can cure congenital defects, should we? Cerebral Palsy? Sure. Down's or other related syndroms? Why not end suffering? What if it isnt afforable and easly accessable to anyone other than the rich? What if we select against things that make us unique, like homosexuality, like variations in natural intelligence, like variations in skin, eye, hair colors? This is all heresay but are questions that need to be answered.

I don't want a "cure" because I am not sick. I am individual, I am brownish hair, hazel eyes, need glasses because of nearsightedness, I like men. This is what makes me different from you, or the person who posts below me. These things are important and I would never want to give them up, merely because I don't fit someone else's idea of perfect. I am perfect the way I am, the way I was born and anyone who doesn't agree with that honestly needs to reasses what they value and find beautiful about life.



This was the kind of reaction I was trying to avoid. I never claimed to be a geneticist, physician, or biology guru. I was only stating how it looked to me (and probably a whole lot of other people). To be clear, I don't regard the homosexuality "defect" (still not a huge fan of that terminology) as anything that needs to be "cured" or wiped out. You are somewhat correct when you state that because I cannot fathom how homosexuality is beneficial to reproduction, that my assumption was that is was an abnormality. On the other hand, your assertion that I was trying to engage in some kind of argument.... not so much. I was just stating how it looked to me. On a more positive note, I appreciate the education you provided in more of your post.

And to others that have replied, thanks for the information. Some of these posts are very thoughtful and an interesting read.


Myself, as someone who actually finished med school and doesn't just brag about being interested in science despite being a dropout, I would think twice before calling homosexuality a defect (education makes you doubtful, while bigotry makes you certain). We don't know what causes homosexuality, and it presents with no physical defects - it is thus much more complex than easily genetically identifiable birth defects. Just as we don't know the cause, we don't know the purpose - and in today's civilized society possible purposes might be impossible to identify. The only thing a physician or scientist could say with certainty is that homosexuality isn't considered an illness, and doesn't meet the criteria of being pathological.
Parting
drshdwpuppet
Profile Joined July 2011
United States332 Posts
September 14 2011 22:06 GMT
#2323
On September 15 2011 06:16 diverzee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 21:02 ayaz2810 wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:32 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 10:58 ayaz2810 wrote:
I have a difficult question for you folks. Let me see if I can make my point without this coming out wrong.

I am a very logical and science oriented individual. I have always been interested in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. I was a pre-med student until lack of funds ended that dream. Because of this, and the fact that our species contains both males and females for reproduction, it would seem to me that homosexuality is something of a... this is where it gets tricky... a genetic mental defect. I don't mean that to sound as if one person is less than another because of their attraction to one sex over the other. I think of it in terms of something like a birth defect. Like being born with webbed toes or something. I say this because we are obviously designed to reproduce sexually, and that takes a member of both sexes. For that to be altered in a human brain would seem to go against our evolution.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to approach this from an unbiased, biological point of view. I have no problem with homosexuals at all personally.

So now my question: If there were an "antidote" for people who were currently gay, and perhaps a test for pregnant women that would reveal homosexuality in utero, and then be "treated", what would the gay community think? Obviously you can really speak only for yourselves, but you can probably speculate based on people that you know.

I'll refrain from inserting my own thoughts, because I'm fairly sure someone will say exactly what I'm thinking.




yaaaayyyy~~~~!!!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN (I never get tired of this ride)

basically, what we have here is a classic argument ad ignorantiam. You hide it well, and seem really thoughtful, so no insult is intended, but basically, you say that "because I cannot fathom a reason how homosexuality can be benificial to reproduction, it isnt and therefore must be a defect". This is also a major unstated false premise in that the assumption is that anything that doesn't directly contribute to penis inserted into vagina and semen being injected into uterus to provide seed for life is not evolutionarily advantageous. The second unstated false premise is that something that anything that negatively affects reproduction is a defect. We will explore both realms shortly.

First, it has been posted many, many, many times (more latin: ad nauseum, or literally, so much so that I am sick of typing it) that it is not excluded from the realm of scientific probability and EXISTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY that homosexuality can benifit the species or "herd" if you will. Basically, read back and try and find it, sift through the rainbows, glitter and tight leather pants. Its in there, I assure you. The tl;dr version is that, grandmother theory (excess men incapable of reproduction increases the number of people capable of taking care of young and thereby increases their chance of survival) and "gay boyfriend" theory (excess men allow for the strongest men to have multiple children in multiple women, increasing their virulence and giving the women the ability to still raise young with a partner). There are lots more theories, some better than others. Basically, none of them are able to be proven, but there are plenty of ways in which we can imagine homosexuality being a positive force in a society, if not in an individual's chance of reproduction.

Part two. Is homosexuality a defect. I think I answered that pretty well. No. Homosexuality is a part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality. I think modern medicinal science is too quick to label defects and at any rate, there are no signs of defective genetic markers or anything related in homosexuality.

As for your anditode questions. For the reasons mentioned above, no. Besides, who would make your clothes?

It is a great question and brings up the ethics of this sort of questioning. If we can cure congenital defects, should we? Cerebral Palsy? Sure. Down's or other related syndroms? Why not end suffering? What if it isnt afforable and easly accessable to anyone other than the rich? What if we select against things that make us unique, like homosexuality, like variations in natural intelligence, like variations in skin, eye, hair colors? This is all heresay but are questions that need to be answered.

I don't want a "cure" because I am not sick. I am individual, I am brownish hair, hazel eyes, need glasses because of nearsightedness, I like men. This is what makes me different from you, or the person who posts below me. These things are important and I would never want to give them up, merely because I don't fit someone else's idea of perfect. I am perfect the way I am, the way I was born and anyone who doesn't agree with that honestly needs to reasses what they value and find beautiful about life.



This was the kind of reaction I was trying to avoid. I never claimed to be a geneticist, physician, or biology guru. I was only stating how it looked to me (and probably a whole lot of other people). To be clear, I don't regard the homosexuality "defect" (still not a huge fan of that terminology) as anything that needs to be "cured" or wiped out. You are somewhat correct when you state that because I cannot fathom how homosexuality is beneficial to reproduction, that my assumption was that is was an abnormality. On the other hand, your assertion that I was trying to engage in some kind of argument.... not so much. I was just stating how it looked to me. On a more positive note, I appreciate the education you provided in more of your post.

And to others that have replied, thanks for the information. Some of these posts are very thoughtful and an interesting read.


Myself, as someone who actually finished med school and doesn't just brag about being interested in science despite being a dropout, I would think twice before calling homosexuality a defect (education makes you doubtful, while bigotry makes you certain). We don't know what causes homosexuality, and it presents with no physical defects - it is thus much more complex than easily genetically identifiable birth defects. Just as we don't know the cause, we don't know the purpose - and in today's civilized society possible purposes might be impossible to identify. The only thing a physician or scientist could say with certainty is that homosexuality isn't considered an illness, and doesn't meet the criteria of being pathological.


can I have your babies? I cook and clean and give good cuddles ^^
Enterprise was just temp banned for 1 week by Myles. Reason: You aren't a philosopher and warning aren't cutting it.
Axero
Profile Joined September 2011
United States307 Posts
September 14 2011 22:26 GMT
#2324
On September 15 2011 07:06 drshdwpuppet wrote:
can I have your babies? I cook and clean and give good cuddles ^^


He also owns a leather thong.
☺
GDR
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada407 Posts
September 15 2011 00:42 GMT
#2325
On September 15 2011 07:26 Axero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 07:06 drshdwpuppet wrote:
can I have your babies? I cook and clean and give good cuddles ^^


He also owns a leather thong.


Not sure how I feel about this. It could be sexy.
wristuzi
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1168 Posts
September 15 2011 01:18 GMT
#2326
On September 15 2011 04:01 AutobotDan wrote:
Here's the thing: homosexuality varies so much among different cultures and societies in its expression, that it can't solely be biological in function. There's no universal gay identity or behavior - in fact, even in Western society, there's a great deal of variation.


Couldn't you say the same thing about heterosexuality?
MarineKingPrime ¯\_(シ)_/¯ // Naniwa ¯\_(シ)_/¯ // Morrow
drshdwpuppet
Profile Joined July 2011
United States332 Posts
September 15 2011 01:25 GMT
#2327
I dont actually have a leather thong. I do, however, promise to wake up early and make breakfast while wearing only underwear so you have something nice to wake up to.
Enterprise was just temp banned for 1 week by Myles. Reason: You aren't a philosopher and warning aren't cutting it.
BarbieHsu
Profile Joined September 2011
574 Posts
September 15 2011 02:09 GMT
#2328
On September 15 2011 06:16 diverzee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 21:02 ayaz2810 wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:32 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 10:58 ayaz2810 wrote:
I have a difficult question for you folks. Let me see if I can make my point without this coming out wrong.

I am a very logical and science oriented individual. I have always been interested in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. I was a pre-med student until lack of funds ended that dream. Because of this, and the fact that our species contains both males and females for reproduction, it would seem to me that homosexuality is something of a... this is where it gets tricky... a genetic mental defect. I don't mean that to sound as if one person is less than another because of their attraction to one sex over the other. I think of it in terms of something like a birth defect. Like being born with webbed toes or something. I say this because we are obviously designed to reproduce sexually, and that takes a member of both sexes. For that to be altered in a human brain would seem to go against our evolution.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to approach this from an unbiased, biological point of view. I have no problem with homosexuals at all personally.

So now my question: If there were an "antidote" for people who were currently gay, and perhaps a test for pregnant women that would reveal homosexuality in utero, and then be "treated", what would the gay community think? Obviously you can really speak only for yourselves, but you can probably speculate based on people that you know.

I'll refrain from inserting my own thoughts, because I'm fairly sure someone will say exactly what I'm thinking.




yaaaayyyy~~~~!!!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN (I never get tired of this ride)

basically, what we have here is a classic argument ad ignorantiam. You hide it well, and seem really thoughtful, so no insult is intended, but basically, you say that "because I cannot fathom a reason how homosexuality can be benificial to reproduction, it isnt and therefore must be a defect". This is also a major unstated false premise in that the assumption is that anything that doesn't directly contribute to penis inserted into vagina and semen being injected into uterus to provide seed for life is not evolutionarily advantageous. The second unstated false premise is that something that anything that negatively affects reproduction is a defect. We will explore both realms shortly.

First, it has been posted many, many, many times (more latin: ad nauseum, or literally, so much so that I am sick of typing it) that it is not excluded from the realm of scientific probability and EXISTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY that homosexuality can benifit the species or "herd" if you will. Basically, read back and try and find it, sift through the rainbows, glitter and tight leather pants. Its in there, I assure you. The tl;dr version is that, grandmother theory (excess men incapable of reproduction increases the number of people capable of taking care of young and thereby increases their chance of survival) and "gay boyfriend" theory (excess men allow for the strongest men to have multiple children in multiple women, increasing their virulence and giving the women the ability to still raise young with a partner). There are lots more theories, some better than others. Basically, none of them are able to be proven, but there are plenty of ways in which we can imagine homosexuality being a positive force in a society, if not in an individual's chance of reproduction.

Part two. Is homosexuality a defect. I think I answered that pretty well. No. Homosexuality is a part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality. I think modern medicinal science is too quick to label defects and at any rate, there are no signs of defective genetic markers or anything related in homosexuality.

As for your anditode questions. For the reasons mentioned above, no. Besides, who would make your clothes?

It is a great question and brings up the ethics of this sort of questioning. If we can cure congenital defects, should we? Cerebral Palsy? Sure. Down's or other related syndroms? Why not end suffering? What if it isnt afforable and easly accessable to anyone other than the rich? What if we select against things that make us unique, like homosexuality, like variations in natural intelligence, like variations in skin, eye, hair colors? This is all heresay but are questions that need to be answered.

I don't want a "cure" because I am not sick. I am individual, I am brownish hair, hazel eyes, need glasses because of nearsightedness, I like men. This is what makes me different from you, or the person who posts below me. These things are important and I would never want to give them up, merely because I don't fit someone else's idea of perfect. I am perfect the way I am, the way I was born and anyone who doesn't agree with that honestly needs to reasses what they value and find beautiful about life.



This was the kind of reaction I was trying to avoid. I never claimed to be a geneticist, physician, or biology guru. I was only stating how it looked to me (and probably a whole lot of other people). To be clear, I don't regard the homosexuality "defect" (still not a huge fan of that terminology) as anything that needs to be "cured" or wiped out. You are somewhat correct when you state that because I cannot fathom how homosexuality is beneficial to reproduction, that my assumption was that is was an abnormality. On the other hand, your assertion that I was trying to engage in some kind of argument.... not so much. I was just stating how it looked to me. On a more positive note, I appreciate the education you provided in more of your post.

And to others that have replied, thanks for the information. Some of these posts are very thoughtful and an interesting read.


Myself, as someone who actually finished med school and doesn't just brag about being interested in science despite being a dropout, I would think twice before calling homosexuality a defect (education makes you doubtful, while bigotry makes you certain). We don't know what causes homosexuality, and it presents with no physical defects - it is thus much more complex than easily genetically identifiable birth defects. Just as we don't know the cause, we don't know the purpose - and in today's civilized society possible purposes might be impossible to identify. The only thing a physician or scientist could say with certainty is that homosexuality isn't considered an illness, and doesn't meet the criteria of being pathological.


I think it's a defect, in a sense that you're a woman in a man's body or vice versa.

For gay's their attitude is normal for women and their body is normal for men. But the two normals together is still not considered normal.

I sometimes ask my gay friends what they would be if they had a choice and some say straight girl, some say straight guy. No one says they'd like to stay gay.
archie_
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia4 Posts
September 15 2011 02:32 GMT
#2329
Watching him cast NASL S2 with Gretorp, LzGaMeR has gotten so cute now!
GDR
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada407 Posts
September 15 2011 02:32 GMT
#2330
On September 15 2011 11:09 BarbieHsu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:16 diverzee wrote:
On September 14 2011 21:02 ayaz2810 wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:32 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 10:58 ayaz2810 wrote:
I have a difficult question for you folks. Let me see if I can make my point without this coming out wrong.

I am a very logical and science oriented individual. I have always been interested in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. I was a pre-med student until lack of funds ended that dream. Because of this, and the fact that our species contains both males and females for reproduction, it would seem to me that homosexuality is something of a... this is where it gets tricky... a genetic mental defect. I don't mean that to sound as if one person is less than another because of their attraction to one sex over the other. I think of it in terms of something like a birth defect. Like being born with webbed toes or something. I say this because we are obviously designed to reproduce sexually, and that takes a member of both sexes. For that to be altered in a human brain would seem to go against our evolution.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to approach this from an unbiased, biological point of view. I have no problem with homosexuals at all personally.

So now my question: If there were an "antidote" for people who were currently gay, and perhaps a test for pregnant women that would reveal homosexuality in utero, and then be "treated", what would the gay community think? Obviously you can really speak only for yourselves, but you can probably speculate based on people that you know.

I'll refrain from inserting my own thoughts, because I'm fairly sure someone will say exactly what I'm thinking.




yaaaayyyy~~~~!!!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN (I never get tired of this ride)

basically, what we have here is a classic argument ad ignorantiam. You hide it well, and seem really thoughtful, so no insult is intended, but basically, you say that "because I cannot fathom a reason how homosexuality can be benificial to reproduction, it isnt and therefore must be a defect". This is also a major unstated false premise in that the assumption is that anything that doesn't directly contribute to penis inserted into vagina and semen being injected into uterus to provide seed for life is not evolutionarily advantageous. The second unstated false premise is that something that anything that negatively affects reproduction is a defect. We will explore both realms shortly.

First, it has been posted many, many, many times (more latin: ad nauseum, or literally, so much so that I am sick of typing it) that it is not excluded from the realm of scientific probability and EXISTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY that homosexuality can benifit the species or "herd" if you will. Basically, read back and try and find it, sift through the rainbows, glitter and tight leather pants. Its in there, I assure you. The tl;dr version is that, grandmother theory (excess men incapable of reproduction increases the number of people capable of taking care of young and thereby increases their chance of survival) and "gay boyfriend" theory (excess men allow for the strongest men to have multiple children in multiple women, increasing their virulence and giving the women the ability to still raise young with a partner). There are lots more theories, some better than others. Basically, none of them are able to be proven, but there are plenty of ways in which we can imagine homosexuality being a positive force in a society, if not in an individual's chance of reproduction.

Part two. Is homosexuality a defect. I think I answered that pretty well. No. Homosexuality is a part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality. I think modern medicinal science is too quick to label defects and at any rate, there are no signs of defective genetic markers or anything related in homosexuality.

As for your anditode questions. For the reasons mentioned above, no. Besides, who would make your clothes?

It is a great question and brings up the ethics of this sort of questioning. If we can cure congenital defects, should we? Cerebral Palsy? Sure. Down's or other related syndroms? Why not end suffering? What if it isnt afforable and easly accessable to anyone other than the rich? What if we select against things that make us unique, like homosexuality, like variations in natural intelligence, like variations in skin, eye, hair colors? This is all heresay but are questions that need to be answered.

I don't want a "cure" because I am not sick. I am individual, I am brownish hair, hazel eyes, need glasses because of nearsightedness, I like men. This is what makes me different from you, or the person who posts below me. These things are important and I would never want to give them up, merely because I don't fit someone else's idea of perfect. I am perfect the way I am, the way I was born and anyone who doesn't agree with that honestly needs to reasses what they value and find beautiful about life.



This was the kind of reaction I was trying to avoid. I never claimed to be a geneticist, physician, or biology guru. I was only stating how it looked to me (and probably a whole lot of other people). To be clear, I don't regard the homosexuality "defect" (still not a huge fan of that terminology) as anything that needs to be "cured" or wiped out. You are somewhat correct when you state that because I cannot fathom how homosexuality is beneficial to reproduction, that my assumption was that is was an abnormality. On the other hand, your assertion that I was trying to engage in some kind of argument.... not so much. I was just stating how it looked to me. On a more positive note, I appreciate the education you provided in more of your post.

And to others that have replied, thanks for the information. Some of these posts are very thoughtful and an interesting read.


Myself, as someone who actually finished med school and doesn't just brag about being interested in science despite being a dropout, I would think twice before calling homosexuality a defect (education makes you doubtful, while bigotry makes you certain). We don't know what causes homosexuality, and it presents with no physical defects - it is thus much more complex than easily genetically identifiable birth defects. Just as we don't know the cause, we don't know the purpose - and in today's civilized society possible purposes might be impossible to identify. The only thing a physician or scientist could say with certainty is that homosexuality isn't considered an illness, and doesn't meet the criteria of being pathological.


I think it's a defect, in a sense that you're a woman in a man's body or vice versa.

For gay's their attitude is normal for women and their body is normal for men. But the two normals together is still not considered normal.

I sometimes ask my gay friends what they would be if they had a choice and some say straight girl, some say straight guy. No one says they'd like to stay gay.


That is ridiculous. While sure, some men are effeminate, its not specific to one sexuality. Maybe, you mean sexual attraction (and not attitude), but I'll leave it for someone else smarter then I.

I rather enjoy what I am. I wouldn't change it - I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Axero
Profile Joined September 2011
United States307 Posts
September 15 2011 02:34 GMT
#2331
On September 15 2011 11:09 BarbieHsu wrote:
I sometimes ask my gay friends what they would be if they had a choice and some say straight girl, some say straight guy. No one says they'd like to stay gay.



Your friends hardly count as an accurate microcosm of gay people. Some would change if they could, others are perfectly happy the way they are and wouldn't change.
☺
RoMGraViTy
Profile Joined February 2011
United States314 Posts
September 15 2011 02:48 GMT
#2332
<3 LzGamer now that hes casting nasl atm.
"Khaldor is a younger version of Goro from Mortal Kombat" - Tasteless
Solinos
Profile Joined January 2011
United States105 Posts
September 15 2011 02:53 GMT
#2333
On September 15 2011 11:09 BarbieHsu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:16 diverzee wrote:
On September 14 2011 21:02 ayaz2810 wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:32 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 10:58 ayaz2810 wrote:
I have a difficult question for you folks. Let me see if I can make my point without this coming out wrong.

I am a very logical and science oriented individual. I have always been interested in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. I was a pre-med student until lack of funds ended that dream. Because of this, and the fact that our species contains both males and females for reproduction, it would seem to me that homosexuality is something of a... this is where it gets tricky... a genetic mental defect. I don't mean that to sound as if one person is less than another because of their attraction to one sex over the other. I think of it in terms of something like a birth defect. Like being born with webbed toes or something. I say this because we are obviously designed to reproduce sexually, and that takes a member of both sexes. For that to be altered in a human brain would seem to go against our evolution.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to approach this from an unbiased, biological point of view. I have no problem with homosexuals at all personally.

So now my question: If there were an "antidote" for people who were currently gay, and perhaps a test for pregnant women that would reveal homosexuality in utero, and then be "treated", what would the gay community think? Obviously you can really speak only for yourselves, but you can probably speculate based on people that you know.

I'll refrain from inserting my own thoughts, because I'm fairly sure someone will say exactly what I'm thinking.




yaaaayyyy~~~~!!!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN (I never get tired of this ride)

basically, what we have here is a classic argument ad ignorantiam. You hide it well, and seem really thoughtful, so no insult is intended, but basically, you say that "because I cannot fathom a reason how homosexuality can be benificial to reproduction, it isnt and therefore must be a defect". This is also a major unstated false premise in that the assumption is that anything that doesn't directly contribute to penis inserted into vagina and semen being injected into uterus to provide seed for life is not evolutionarily advantageous. The second unstated false premise is that something that anything that negatively affects reproduction is a defect. We will explore both realms shortly.

First, it has been posted many, many, many times (more latin: ad nauseum, or literally, so much so that I am sick of typing it) that it is not excluded from the realm of scientific probability and EXISTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY that homosexuality can benifit the species or "herd" if you will. Basically, read back and try and find it, sift through the rainbows, glitter and tight leather pants. Its in there, I assure you. The tl;dr version is that, grandmother theory (excess men incapable of reproduction increases the number of people capable of taking care of young and thereby increases their chance of survival) and "gay boyfriend" theory (excess men allow for the strongest men to have multiple children in multiple women, increasing their virulence and giving the women the ability to still raise young with a partner). There are lots more theories, some better than others. Basically, none of them are able to be proven, but there are plenty of ways in which we can imagine homosexuality being a positive force in a society, if not in an individual's chance of reproduction.

Part two. Is homosexuality a defect. I think I answered that pretty well. No. Homosexuality is a part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality. I think modern medicinal science is too quick to label defects and at any rate, there are no signs of defective genetic markers or anything related in homosexuality.

As for your anditode questions. For the reasons mentioned above, no. Besides, who would make your clothes?

It is a great question and brings up the ethics of this sort of questioning. If we can cure congenital defects, should we? Cerebral Palsy? Sure. Down's or other related syndroms? Why not end suffering? What if it isnt afforable and easly accessable to anyone other than the rich? What if we select against things that make us unique, like homosexuality, like variations in natural intelligence, like variations in skin, eye, hair colors? This is all heresay but are questions that need to be answered.

I don't want a "cure" because I am not sick. I am individual, I am brownish hair, hazel eyes, need glasses because of nearsightedness, I like men. This is what makes me different from you, or the person who posts below me. These things are important and I would never want to give them up, merely because I don't fit someone else's idea of perfect. I am perfect the way I am, the way I was born and anyone who doesn't agree with that honestly needs to reasses what they value and find beautiful about life.



This was the kind of reaction I was trying to avoid. I never claimed to be a geneticist, physician, or biology guru. I was only stating how it looked to me (and probably a whole lot of other people). To be clear, I don't regard the homosexuality "defect" (still not a huge fan of that terminology) as anything that needs to be "cured" or wiped out. You are somewhat correct when you state that because I cannot fathom how homosexuality is beneficial to reproduction, that my assumption was that is was an abnormality. On the other hand, your assertion that I was trying to engage in some kind of argument.... not so much. I was just stating how it looked to me. On a more positive note, I appreciate the education you provided in more of your post.

And to others that have replied, thanks for the information. Some of these posts are very thoughtful and an interesting read.


Myself, as someone who actually finished med school and doesn't just brag about being interested in science despite being a dropout, I would think twice before calling homosexuality a defect (education makes you doubtful, while bigotry makes you certain). We don't know what causes homosexuality, and it presents with no physical defects - it is thus much more complex than easily genetically identifiable birth defects. Just as we don't know the cause, we don't know the purpose - and in today's civilized society possible purposes might be impossible to identify. The only thing a physician or scientist could say with certainty is that homosexuality isn't considered an illness, and doesn't meet the criteria of being pathological.


I think it's a defect, in a sense that you're a woman in a man's body or vice versa.

For gay's their attitude is normal for women and their body is normal for men. But the two normals together is still not considered normal.

I sometimes ask my gay friends what they would be if they had a choice and some say straight girl, some say straight guy. No one says they'd like to stay gay.



For point of comparison, I would stay how I am, though the choice is a little fake. I have no idea what it's like to be a straight male or female, and so I can't give an honest about what I would "like" to be. All the same, I'm happy with myself and don't feel compelled to change it.
matjlav
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany2435 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 03:55:11
September 15 2011 03:47 GMT
#2334
On September 15 2011 06:04 adrenaLinG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 01:59 matjlav wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:36 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:21 matjlav wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:00 GDR wrote:
I can't imagine myself ever wanting to be straight. I like men. I can't imagine myself liking woman - sexually - there nether regions actually disgust me. This would prevent me from ever even thinking such a thing. So the idea that I would want to be "cured" is a bit ridiculous.

As far as what happens to a baby, I think that is the parents choice, just like I wouldn't object to an abortion I wouldn't object to what you purpose. It would be unfortunate, and maybe make the lives of gay people harder down the road, but it wouldn't really be my place to tell soon-to-be parents what I think is right when I myself have no plans to raise any children.


You're saying this as an open and comfortable gay person. However, I know for a fact that there are tons of closeted guys that would love nothing more than to be able to be straight just like everyone else.


If you take a child, lock them in a closet and beat them daily, screaming at them "YOU ARE NOT A BOY, I DO NOT LOVE YOU" this will make them wish they wern't a girl. This does not mean it is better to be a boy. That behaviour is what gays have to deal with daily. I am constantly reminded that what I am is not considered normal. For someone without the support network I have, I can definitely see how that would make them feel awful and want to be a different person. It isnt their defect, it is the perverse, cruel way others judge and view the world. Everybody's journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many people consider it a disease, consider it something to hate and fear, says more about them than it does about homosexuality.


I agree with everything you just said. But if an adult homosexual person were to opt into a proven effective treatment to be changed from homosexual into heterosexual, then do we have the right to keep them from doing so because we think that they shouldn't want to be heterosexual? Would it even be wrong of them to want to be heterosexual?


Yes, we would, because it would be in the interests of their personal and mental health to be denied this treatment given the "success rate" of these procedures.


The question was based on the premise that we did have a proven procedure to turn gay people straight.

On September 15 2011 06:04 adrenaLinG wrote:
"Ex-gay" or "reparative therapy" is neither proven or effective, so your hypothetical is certainly moot from the very initial premise.


That's why it's a hypothetical. I was never arguing that there actually is such a treatment. It was only a question for the purpose of discussion, as it was for the original poster who posed the idea.

So, feel free to take a stab at it again if you want because I'm interested to see what people think on the issue. If there were some sort of treatment that could turn gay people straight, would it be wrong to use it?
sotmh
Profile Joined May 2010
United States41 Posts
September 15 2011 04:03 GMT
#2335
I think it's a defect, in a sense that you're a woman in a man's body or vice versa.

For gay's their attitude is normal for women and their body is normal for men. But the two normals together is still not considered normal.

I sometimes ask my gay friends what they would be if they had a choice and some say straight girl, some say straight guy. No one says they'd like to stay gay.


You seem to be confusing gender identity and sexual orientation.
matjlav
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany2435 Posts
September 15 2011 04:07 GMT
#2336
On September 15 2011 11:09 BarbieHsu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:16 diverzee wrote:
On September 14 2011 21:02 ayaz2810 wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:32 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 10:58 ayaz2810 wrote:
I have a difficult question for you folks. Let me see if I can make my point without this coming out wrong.

I am a very logical and science oriented individual. I have always been interested in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. I was a pre-med student until lack of funds ended that dream. Because of this, and the fact that our species contains both males and females for reproduction, it would seem to me that homosexuality is something of a... this is where it gets tricky... a genetic mental defect. I don't mean that to sound as if one person is less than another because of their attraction to one sex over the other. I think of it in terms of something like a birth defect. Like being born with webbed toes or something. I say this because we are obviously designed to reproduce sexually, and that takes a member of both sexes. For that to be altered in a human brain would seem to go against our evolution.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to approach this from an unbiased, biological point of view. I have no problem with homosexuals at all personally.

So now my question: If there were an "antidote" for people who were currently gay, and perhaps a test for pregnant women that would reveal homosexuality in utero, and then be "treated", what would the gay community think? Obviously you can really speak only for yourselves, but you can probably speculate based on people that you know.

I'll refrain from inserting my own thoughts, because I'm fairly sure someone will say exactly what I'm thinking.




yaaaayyyy~~~~!!!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN (I never get tired of this ride)

basically, what we have here is a classic argument ad ignorantiam. You hide it well, and seem really thoughtful, so no insult is intended, but basically, you say that "because I cannot fathom a reason how homosexuality can be benificial to reproduction, it isnt and therefore must be a defect". This is also a major unstated false premise in that the assumption is that anything that doesn't directly contribute to penis inserted into vagina and semen being injected into uterus to provide seed for life is not evolutionarily advantageous. The second unstated false premise is that something that anything that negatively affects reproduction is a defect. We will explore both realms shortly.

First, it has been posted many, many, many times (more latin: ad nauseum, or literally, so much so that I am sick of typing it) that it is not excluded from the realm of scientific probability and EXISTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY that homosexuality can benifit the species or "herd" if you will. Basically, read back and try and find it, sift through the rainbows, glitter and tight leather pants. Its in there, I assure you. The tl;dr version is that, grandmother theory (excess men incapable of reproduction increases the number of people capable of taking care of young and thereby increases their chance of survival) and "gay boyfriend" theory (excess men allow for the strongest men to have multiple children in multiple women, increasing their virulence and giving the women the ability to still raise young with a partner). There are lots more theories, some better than others. Basically, none of them are able to be proven, but there are plenty of ways in which we can imagine homosexuality being a positive force in a society, if not in an individual's chance of reproduction.

Part two. Is homosexuality a defect. I think I answered that pretty well. No. Homosexuality is a part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality. I think modern medicinal science is too quick to label defects and at any rate, there are no signs of defective genetic markers or anything related in homosexuality.

As for your anditode questions. For the reasons mentioned above, no. Besides, who would make your clothes?

It is a great question and brings up the ethics of this sort of questioning. If we can cure congenital defects, should we? Cerebral Palsy? Sure. Down's or other related syndroms? Why not end suffering? What if it isnt afforable and easly accessable to anyone other than the rich? What if we select against things that make us unique, like homosexuality, like variations in natural intelligence, like variations in skin, eye, hair colors? This is all heresay but are questions that need to be answered.

I don't want a "cure" because I am not sick. I am individual, I am brownish hair, hazel eyes, need glasses because of nearsightedness, I like men. This is what makes me different from you, or the person who posts below me. These things are important and I would never want to give them up, merely because I don't fit someone else's idea of perfect. I am perfect the way I am, the way I was born and anyone who doesn't agree with that honestly needs to reasses what they value and find beautiful about life.



This was the kind of reaction I was trying to avoid. I never claimed to be a geneticist, physician, or biology guru. I was only stating how it looked to me (and probably a whole lot of other people). To be clear, I don't regard the homosexuality "defect" (still not a huge fan of that terminology) as anything that needs to be "cured" or wiped out. You are somewhat correct when you state that because I cannot fathom how homosexuality is beneficial to reproduction, that my assumption was that is was an abnormality. On the other hand, your assertion that I was trying to engage in some kind of argument.... not so much. I was just stating how it looked to me. On a more positive note, I appreciate the education you provided in more of your post.

And to others that have replied, thanks for the information. Some of these posts are very thoughtful and an interesting read.


Myself, as someone who actually finished med school and doesn't just brag about being interested in science despite being a dropout, I would think twice before calling homosexuality a defect (education makes you doubtful, while bigotry makes you certain). We don't know what causes homosexuality, and it presents with no physical defects - it is thus much more complex than easily genetically identifiable birth defects. Just as we don't know the cause, we don't know the purpose - and in today's civilized society possible purposes might be impossible to identify. The only thing a physician or scientist could say with certainty is that homosexuality isn't considered an illness, and doesn't meet the criteria of being pathological.


I think it's a defect, in a sense that you're a woman in a man's body or vice versa.

For gay's their attitude is normal for women and their body is normal for men. But the two normals together is still not considered normal.

I sometimes ask my gay friends what they would be if they had a choice and some say straight girl, some say straight guy. No one says they'd like to stay gay.


Really? I don't know who you're talking to.

I personally couldn't really make much of a decision on that. I'm sure that being a straight guy or a straight woman or a gay woman would have just led to a completely different experience from what I've had. I can't really give any informed decision as to which one I'd rather be, and it's silly to act as if you can.
diverzee
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden992 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 09:59:57
September 15 2011 09:55 GMT
#2337
On September 15 2011 11:09 BarbieHsu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:16 diverzee wrote:
On September 14 2011 21:02 ayaz2810 wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:32 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 10:58 ayaz2810 wrote:
I have a difficult question for you folks. Let me see if I can make my point without this coming out wrong.

I am a very logical and science oriented individual. I have always been interested in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. I was a pre-med student until lack of funds ended that dream. Because of this, and the fact that our species contains both males and females for reproduction, it would seem to me that homosexuality is something of a... this is where it gets tricky... a genetic mental defect. I don't mean that to sound as if one person is less than another because of their attraction to one sex over the other. I think of it in terms of something like a birth defect. Like being born with webbed toes or something. I say this because we are obviously designed to reproduce sexually, and that takes a member of both sexes. For that to be altered in a human brain would seem to go against our evolution.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to approach this from an unbiased, biological point of view. I have no problem with homosexuals at all personally.

So now my question: If there were an "antidote" for people who were currently gay, and perhaps a test for pregnant women that would reveal homosexuality in utero, and then be "treated", what would the gay community think? Obviously you can really speak only for yourselves, but you can probably speculate based on people that you know.

I'll refrain from inserting my own thoughts, because I'm fairly sure someone will say exactly what I'm thinking.




yaaaayyyy~~~~!!!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN (I never get tired of this ride)

basically, what we have here is a classic argument ad ignorantiam. You hide it well, and seem really thoughtful, so no insult is intended, but basically, you say that "because I cannot fathom a reason how homosexuality can be benificial to reproduction, it isnt and therefore must be a defect". This is also a major unstated false premise in that the assumption is that anything that doesn't directly contribute to penis inserted into vagina and semen being injected into uterus to provide seed for life is not evolutionarily advantageous. The second unstated false premise is that something that anything that negatively affects reproduction is a defect. We will explore both realms shortly.

First, it has been posted many, many, many times (more latin: ad nauseum, or literally, so much so that I am sick of typing it) that it is not excluded from the realm of scientific probability and EXISTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY that homosexuality can benifit the species or "herd" if you will. Basically, read back and try and find it, sift through the rainbows, glitter and tight leather pants. Its in there, I assure you. The tl;dr version is that, grandmother theory (excess men incapable of reproduction increases the number of people capable of taking care of young and thereby increases their chance of survival) and "gay boyfriend" theory (excess men allow for the strongest men to have multiple children in multiple women, increasing their virulence and giving the women the ability to still raise young with a partner). There are lots more theories, some better than others. Basically, none of them are able to be proven, but there are plenty of ways in which we can imagine homosexuality being a positive force in a society, if not in an individual's chance of reproduction.

Part two. Is homosexuality a defect. I think I answered that pretty well. No. Homosexuality is a part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality. I think modern medicinal science is too quick to label defects and at any rate, there are no signs of defective genetic markers or anything related in homosexuality.

As for your anditode questions. For the reasons mentioned above, no. Besides, who would make your clothes?

It is a great question and brings up the ethics of this sort of questioning. If we can cure congenital defects, should we? Cerebral Palsy? Sure. Down's or other related syndroms? Why not end suffering? What if it isnt afforable and easly accessable to anyone other than the rich? What if we select against things that make us unique, like homosexuality, like variations in natural intelligence, like variations in skin, eye, hair colors? This is all heresay but are questions that need to be answered.

I don't want a "cure" because I am not sick. I am individual, I am brownish hair, hazel eyes, need glasses because of nearsightedness, I like men. This is what makes me different from you, or the person who posts below me. These things are important and I would never want to give them up, merely because I don't fit someone else's idea of perfect. I am perfect the way I am, the way I was born and anyone who doesn't agree with that honestly needs to reasses what they value and find beautiful about life.



This was the kind of reaction I was trying to avoid. I never claimed to be a geneticist, physician, or biology guru. I was only stating how it looked to me (and probably a whole lot of other people). To be clear, I don't regard the homosexuality "defect" (still not a huge fan of that terminology) as anything that needs to be "cured" or wiped out. You are somewhat correct when you state that because I cannot fathom how homosexuality is beneficial to reproduction, that my assumption was that is was an abnormality. On the other hand, your assertion that I was trying to engage in some kind of argument.... not so much. I was just stating how it looked to me. On a more positive note, I appreciate the education you provided in more of your post.

And to others that have replied, thanks for the information. Some of these posts are very thoughtful and an interesting read.


Myself, as someone who actually finished med school and doesn't just brag about being interested in science despite being a dropout, I would think twice before calling homosexuality a defect (education makes you doubtful, while bigotry makes you certain). We don't know what causes homosexuality, and it presents with no physical defects - it is thus much more complex than easily genetically identifiable birth defects. Just as we don't know the cause, we don't know the purpose - and in today's civilized society possible purposes might be impossible to identify. The only thing a physician or scientist could say with certainty is that homosexuality isn't considered an illness, and doesn't meet the criteria of being pathological.


I think it's a defect, in a sense that you're a woman in a man's body or vice versa.

For gay's their attitude is normal for women and their body is normal for men. But the two normals together is still not considered normal.

I sometimes ask my gay friends what they would be if they had a choice and some say straight girl, some say straight guy. No one says they'd like to stay gay.


You "think it's a defect"? You can think whatever you want, but you should know you won't find scientific backup of such a claim - we simply don't know enough about it and can pretty much only speak on whether it is pathological or not. The reasons you give for thinking of it as a defect however are ridiculous, offensive and shows you completely lack understanding of psychiatry, sexuality and gender identity. You're getting all those badly mixed up. Someone more knowledgable could by using those words be referring to, as someone else pointed out gender identity disorders or transsexualism which are in fact disorders or defects if you will (my suspicions tell me you like the word defect about people different than you). There is however a kind of treatment for that, and it needs a diagnostic classification. It is unrelated to homosexuality. Lastly, personally I don't trust people who say "I have loads of gay friends, I am not a homophobe, and my gay friends told me today [insert self-loathing]". There is no reason to believe you have gay friends, or that they speak in favour of your suspicions.

EDIT:
drshdwpuppet: can I have your babies? I cook and clean and give good cuddles ^^


Lol, um as much as I could use a meal and a cleaner apartment, let me think about it
Parting
AutobotDan
Profile Joined October 2010
42 Posts
September 15 2011 12:28 GMT
#2338
On September 15 2011 03:39 Nuxar wrote:
When I was discovering who I am, at first I was obviously scared. However, despite every feeling. At first, I thought I wanted to be straight. But eventually, I realised that I actually didnt want to be gay. I tried hard to change my way of thinking. I didnt try by painfully torturing my own psychology and hating who I was. Instrad, I made myself truly believe that I love women. It worked at a certain degree. In that I actually DO love some women. But in the end, its only because I wanted that so badly that I made myself believe it true. If I wouldnt of done all that, then i would probably be disgusted by them predator-face.

But in the same way, I tried very hard. I made myself believe. But in the end, I accepted myself and I know that I cant change it, and I extremely happy with it now.


I'm happy that you learned how to accept who you are. Also, that was so funny I choked on my food. I've had gay friends describe it as the facehugger from aliens, a flesh wound, a giant crab monster's mouth, rotting flesh, and the roast beef sandwich from hell.
AngrilyHat
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3 Posts
September 15 2011 17:34 GMT
#2339
On September 15 2011 11:09 BarbieHsu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 06:16 diverzee wrote:
On September 14 2011 21:02 ayaz2810 wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:32 drshdwpuppet wrote:
On September 14 2011 10:58 ayaz2810 wrote:
I have a difficult question for you folks. Let me see if I can make my point without this coming out wrong.

I am a very logical and science oriented individual. I have always been interested in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. I was a pre-med student until lack of funds ended that dream. Because of this, and the fact that our species contains both males and females for reproduction, it would seem to me that homosexuality is something of a... this is where it gets tricky... a genetic mental defect. I don't mean that to sound as if one person is less than another because of their attraction to one sex over the other. I think of it in terms of something like a birth defect. Like being born with webbed toes or something. I say this because we are obviously designed to reproduce sexually, and that takes a member of both sexes. For that to be altered in a human brain would seem to go against our evolution.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to approach this from an unbiased, biological point of view. I have no problem with homosexuals at all personally.

So now my question: If there were an "antidote" for people who were currently gay, and perhaps a test for pregnant women that would reveal homosexuality in utero, and then be "treated", what would the gay community think? Obviously you can really speak only for yourselves, but you can probably speculate based on people that you know.

I'll refrain from inserting my own thoughts, because I'm fairly sure someone will say exactly what I'm thinking.




yaaaayyyy~~~~!!!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN (I never get tired of this ride)

basically, what we have here is a classic argument ad ignorantiam. You hide it well, and seem really thoughtful, so no insult is intended, but basically, you say that "because I cannot fathom a reason how homosexuality can be benificial to reproduction, it isnt and therefore must be a defect". This is also a major unstated false premise in that the assumption is that anything that doesn't directly contribute to penis inserted into vagina and semen being injected into uterus to provide seed for life is not evolutionarily advantageous. The second unstated false premise is that something that anything that negatively affects reproduction is a defect. We will explore both realms shortly.

First, it has been posted many, many, many times (more latin: ad nauseum, or literally, so much so that I am sick of typing it) that it is not excluded from the realm of scientific probability and EXISTING EVOLUTIONARY THEORY that homosexuality can benifit the species or "herd" if you will. Basically, read back and try and find it, sift through the rainbows, glitter and tight leather pants. Its in there, I assure you. The tl;dr version is that, grandmother theory (excess men incapable of reproduction increases the number of people capable of taking care of young and thereby increases their chance of survival) and "gay boyfriend" theory (excess men allow for the strongest men to have multiple children in multiple women, increasing their virulence and giving the women the ability to still raise young with a partner). There are lots more theories, some better than others. Basically, none of them are able to be proven, but there are plenty of ways in which we can imagine homosexuality being a positive force in a society, if not in an individual's chance of reproduction.

Part two. Is homosexuality a defect. I think I answered that pretty well. No. Homosexuality is a part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality. I think modern medicinal science is too quick to label defects and at any rate, there are no signs of defective genetic markers or anything related in homosexuality.

As for your anditode questions. For the reasons mentioned above, no. Besides, who would make your clothes?

It is a great question and brings up the ethics of this sort of questioning. If we can cure congenital defects, should we? Cerebral Palsy? Sure. Down's or other related syndroms? Why not end suffering? What if it isnt afforable and easly accessable to anyone other than the rich? What if we select against things that make us unique, like homosexuality, like variations in natural intelligence, like variations in skin, eye, hair colors? This is all heresay but are questions that need to be answered.

I don't want a "cure" because I am not sick. I am individual, I am brownish hair, hazel eyes, need glasses because of nearsightedness, I like men. This is what makes me different from you, or the person who posts below me. These things are important and I would never want to give them up, merely because I don't fit someone else's idea of perfect. I am perfect the way I am, the way I was born and anyone who doesn't agree with that honestly needs to reasses what they value and find beautiful about life.



This was the kind of reaction I was trying to avoid. I never claimed to be a geneticist, physician, or biology guru. I was only stating how it looked to me (and probably a whole lot of other people). To be clear, I don't regard the homosexuality "defect" (still not a huge fan of that terminology) as anything that needs to be "cured" or wiped out. You are somewhat correct when you state that because I cannot fathom how homosexuality is beneficial to reproduction, that my assumption was that is was an abnormality. On the other hand, your assertion that I was trying to engage in some kind of argument.... not so much. I was just stating how it looked to me. On a more positive note, I appreciate the education you provided in more of your post.

And to others that have replied, thanks for the information. Some of these posts are very thoughtful and an interesting read.


Myself, as someone who actually finished med school and doesn't just brag about being interested in science despite being a dropout, I would think twice before calling homosexuality a defect (education makes you doubtful, while bigotry makes you certain). We don't know what causes homosexuality, and it presents with no physical defects - it is thus much more complex than easily genetically identifiable birth defects. Just as we don't know the cause, we don't know the purpose - and in today's civilized society possible purposes might be impossible to identify. The only thing a physician or scientist could say with certainty is that homosexuality isn't considered an illness, and doesn't meet the criteria of being pathological.


I think it's a defect, in a sense that you're a woman in a man's body or vice versa.

For gay's their attitude is normal for women and their body is normal for men. But the two normals together is still not considered normal.

I sometimes ask my gay friends what they would be if they had a choice and some say straight girl, some say straight guy. No one says they'd like to stay gay.


To add to pretty much what everyone else has said to your terrifyingly misinformed and ignorant comment, I have never once thought of myself as a "woman trapped in a man's body" despite being sexually attracted men. For the most part I would consider myself as effeminate as the average heterosexual male when it comes to mannerisms, physical characteristics (including dress-sense), and personality and I feel safe in assuming that I'm not the only gay man like this.

It's pretty offensive, to me at least, for you to come bumbling in to this thread to tell us that you have figured out why being homosexual is a defect based on some extremely loose and disingenuous assumptions especially when a fair chunk of the regular posters in this thread (by no means am I including myself) are living contradictions to your 'proof'. Further more, you qualify your entire argument with "I have gay friends" which somehow gives it a credible source? I'm sorry but just because you have limited experience with a statistically insignificant number of homosexuals doesn't make you an authority on the matter and it sure as hell doesn't mean you can be offensive under the guise of acquired knowledge.

PS: For those active posters in this thread, both gay and straight, I sincerely do appreciate the amount of information and perspective you all have been able to spread around. I'm equally impressed with the amount of acceptance to find here on TL and the SC community in general. Keep up the great work guys! :D Oh, and Moletrap is kinda cute
GDR
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada407 Posts
September 15 2011 19:27 GMT
#2340
On September 16 2011 02:34 AngrilyHat wrote:
Moletrap is kinda cute


On-topic of casters (and GSL) who else is happy that Khaldor is going to cast Code A?
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