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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On May 20 2013 00:33 Pseudoku wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 00:29 Firebolt145 wrote:
Improving and playing at your best has nothing to do with the draft.
Some things that improve your play:
- Focusing on making space for carry to farm
- Being efficient with your time
- Supports knowing when to pull, when to zone the enemy, when to rotate, when to countergank
- Using smokes effectively
- Warding and counterwarding
- Being appropriately aggressive/defensive
- Strategic play regarding forcing teamfights at the right time, or emphasising split push, based on team compositions
None of that stuff requires you to draft from the top-tier competitive pool of heroes over and over again to learn. In fact it's best for newbies to learn these things with multiple heroes, so they can apply what they learn to any hero they pick in the future. How does 2 melee supports make space for a melee carry to farm against an aggressive trilane/zone the enemy? How do supports without damage or disables zone/countergank successfully? How do poor teamfight heroes help split push/force teamfights at all?
Heroes are not black/white, it isn't 'top tier Magnus/DS/etc' and 'everything else aka shit tier heroes'.
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On May 20 2013 00:33 Pseudoku wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 00:29 Firebolt145 wrote:
Improving and playing at your best has nothing to do with the draft.
Some things that improve your play:
- Focusing on making space for carry to farm
- Being efficient with your time
- Supports knowing when to pull, when to zone the enemy, when to rotate, when to countergank
- Using smokes effectively
- Warding and counterwarding
- Being appropriately aggressive/defensive
- Strategic play regarding forcing teamfights at the right time, or emphasising split push, based on team compositions
None of that stuff requires you to draft from the top-tier competitive pool of heroes over and over again to learn. In fact it's best for newbies to learn these things with multiple heroes, so they can apply what they learn to any hero they pick in the future. How does 2 melee supports make space for a melee carry to farm against an aggressive trilane/zone the enemy? How do supports without damage or disables zone/countergank successfully? How do poor teamfight heroes help split push/force teamfights at all?
You make it sound like we have to pick the 5 worst heroes in the pool without any synergy whatsoever.
We are just asking to not constanly pick the same heroes over and over again. I.E. Instead of going CK + Wisp you could go CK + AA who also has a lot of synergy. And AA is not picked nearly as much.
Or even a lane like Naga Siren + Lina / Lesh who also has a lot of synergy.
Or bringing back old school dota and put Bane / Shadow Demon / Tiny solo mid.
Just because it's not ubergod-tier doesn't mean it's bad. If the TI3 qualifier should indicate anything is that some very underused heroes are still strong (cough tree). There are a lot of heroes you can choose from who are viable. Don't have to go Naix / Lone Druid / Luna / Gyro every game. Because it's repetative and boring.
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That's part of the challenge of making a fun draft. You get a variety of heroes that are unconventional/fun AND capable of making adequate (if not top-tier) trilanes/offlanes/mids, but aren't necessarily 'competitive tier'.
Besides, the winning team of TLIHs tend to be the ones with better execution rather than the "super tryhard drafts".
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Team 1 has a captain who picks top tier picks such as DS, Mag, Sven, SD, Leshrac. Team 2's captain drafts less common picks such as Zeus/Spectre/Witch Doctor/Lion/Beastmaster. Both of these teams allow the players to learn how to play competitively.
We all know what Team 1 can do so I won't bother going into it, we've seen it a million times.
Let's look at Team 2. The Zeus does his thing in middle and learns how to control runes and the tempo of the game. WD and Lion can practice zoning out the enemy offlaner while farming XP and gold in the jungle, and possibly rotate middle with a smoke. The Beastmaster can practice getting XP in the offlane while abusing ancients, getting level 6 as quick as possible before rotating around and ganking with Roar. Eventually they can use their global power to get pick offs, as well as split push thanks to Spectre's Haunt.
Unfortunately, because Team 1's picks are simply stronger in the current metagame, Team 1 eventually win.
Rinse and repeat.
Boring.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Obviously in my example it could've come straight down to Team 1's players playing better than Team 2's players, letting them win anyway. But what I'm trying to do is eliminate the 'draft' from playing such a huge role in deciding the winner of games. Some of us are decent/great drafters, other are not. Does that mean that the game should be decided from the beginning?
Those of us who are page 1-10 players may come into these IH's looking to play super high level Dota with top tier picks and all. But what we have to realise is that this IH has many players who are almost brand new to Dota. Teaching these guys the fundamentals of Dota without forcing them to play top tier heroes, many of which they are completely unfamiliar with, is one of the things we should be aiming for.
I'm not sure if I'm properly conveying my points, it's a bit of a jumble.
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I suppose the question is why are you coming into these inhouse games - most of us are here for fun games with a fun atmosphere, with semi high level players or players trying to get better, at least. If you want progame drafts, well that will happen every few games, but its not the point of this IH...i think?
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I think it was the game that you left yesterday Firebolt, but honestly the last 5v5 of the day I think showed it pretty well. We had a captain who literally had 1 win. Didn't know any of the heroes, and was using guides entirely. We ended up drafting a 'fun' team with a mid huskar (for the new guy), a farming storm, ES/Naga supports (though thinking back disruptor/ES would have been better) and an offlane/jungle prophet. It was my first ES game ever (fun hero btw, going to play him more) but in its own dumb way the draft worked. We had what we needed to kite the lifestealer, we could block the bear from pulling (had I been more experienced) and if we 5 manned during the night time, NS wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective.
Through that game I learned more than I could have in 10 more games with bane, sd, and the like.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Its fun unless you ban the against the creative team
then mid gets pooled a bottle.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On May 20 2013 01:06 Kipsate wrote:
Its fun unless you ban the against the creative team
then mid gets pooled a bottle.
Yeah this was also ridiculous. One team was drafting a lightning theme with Zeus/Razor/Disruptor, then the other team decides to ban Storm and something else (can't remember). What was the point of that? They're already gimping themselves by going for a fun and zany theme, and you decide to force them to pick something else? Bleh.
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Honestly the people who think this should be hardcore top tier dota are probably also the people who call those who smoke gank or counter ward tryhards.
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it was the Frenchie
It's okay, he paid for it :D
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I think DD's draft would often be considered fun drafts in inhouses. The biggest issue with tryhard drafts is how they are far less diverse than even competitive drafts. I think since people have far less practice drafting they end up doing the cookie cutter good drafts you see all the time and it gets really boring.
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you can't just make arbitrary rules like "no tryhard drafts" though
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
I'm aware. Two ideas I've gotten so far are 1) RD mode, and 2) have the captains agree with each other prior to the game starting whether they will be going for fun themes or serious top tier drafts, and if they disagree, then it can be a vote of the players.
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I consider it fun to play with and against competitive drafts. I get enough random compositions in mm while grouping with tlers.
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I think a lot of the popular heroes are fun to play like Rubick, QoP, Clock, Lina, Magnus etc... But whenever I play in the IH games we end up with boring shit like Kotl, Ogre Magi, Bounty Hunter, Vengeful Spirit and Death Prophet. Often the teams have poor synergy as well. If you want diverse teams you can just play AR, can't get more diverse than that. You play CM because you want something that makes sense and works well together as well as against the enemy.
Imo RD is a great idea.
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I agree with leloup and Feederbolt
Last game was insanely bad, i mean, outdrafted from the get go, is a NO FUN way. Even if you could outplay us, we just needed to do "fine" and we will eventually win the game no matter what, and you guys needed to play "8/10" at least to make it even.
I also know that "rules" for the drafts would be silly, but you can agree or not, vote or not or something like that, or even play RD, wich is a great mode.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
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All Dire Strength or Radiant Int. Best games ever
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All I know is that i pretty much draft whatever I want and I still have like 80% win rate as captain during tlih since people who are uncreative tryhard a probably don't understand certain lane matchups or reasoning behind their tryhard picks
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EPT
