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I'm not sure they're diverse enough to do that way because I, at least, tend to find I end up with similar lategame items. In my experience at least it tends to be the choice of first item that is the big question because it dictates how effective you're going to be in early fights.
Don't get me wrong, its an important choice. But ultimately you're still going to want BKB, Crys into Daedalus, etc. And boosting your attack speed is always going to be important for more Timelock procs.
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On January 29 2014 01:18 -Celestial- wrote:
I'm not sure they're diverse enough to do that way because I, at least, tend to find I end up with similar lategame items. In my experience at least it tends to be the choice of first item that is the big question because it dictates how effective you're going to be in early fights.
Don't get me wrong, its an important choice. But ultimately you're still going to want BKB, Crys into Daedalus, etc. And boosting your attack speed is always going to be important for more Timelock procs.
yes, that's what I thought, so it makes the situational items section very bulky with incredibly similar items.
Pudge
Added Blink Dagger, removed Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Mirana
Moved Manta Style to Situational Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Guide still feels kind of bare.
edit: all guides reflect 6.80 title and date of update. Will look at hero that need major changes
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Heroes remaining unchanged
- Alchemist
- Ancient Apparition
- Anti-Mage
Updated description regarding AOE on his ultimate
- Axe
- Beastmaster
- Bloodseeker
Updated description regarding Bloodbath change
- Brewmaster
- Broodmother
Updated description regarding pathing if enemies have vision on you.
- Centaur Warrunner
- Death Prophet
- Enchantress
- Huskar
- Invoker
- Juggernaut
- Legion Commander [Lane]
- Lone Druid [Lane]
- Lone Druid [Jungle]
- Lycan
- Magnus
- Medusa
- Morphling
Updated description regarding Waveform's ability to now cast and attack
- Nature's Prophet
- Necrophos
Updated Death Pulse can hit units in Fog of War
- Night Stalker
- Nyx Assassin
- Outworld Devourer
- Phantom Assassin
- Riki
- Sand King
- Silencer
- Skywrath Mage
- Slardar
- Slark [Middle]
- Slark [Lane]
- Sniper
- Spirit Breaker
- Sven
- Timbersaw
- Troll Warlord
- Tusk
- Wraith King
- Zeus
Heroes Changes (These changes are now applied)
Bane
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Batrider
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Clockwerk
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
Chen
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Crystal Maiden
Moved Black King Bar to Situational Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
Dark Seer
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Dazzle
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
Disruptor
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Dragon Knight
(to verify skill build: WEQQQRQEEERWWW) - kept the same
- Drow Ranger
Added Yasha to Core Items
Updated Description for Silence
- Earthshaker
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Earth Spirit
Updated Skill Build: EWQEEREWWWRQQQ (maxing Geomagnetic Grip, Rolling Boulder then Boulder Smash)
Updated Description for Boulder Smash
Updated Description for Rolling Boulder
Updated Description for Geomagnetic Grip
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Enigma
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Faceless Void
Updated descriptions regarding Faceless void's ultimate
Updated Skill build: QWEQERWEEQRQWW (thanks Sno_Man) (two for a proper escape and maxing your bash)
Removed Armlet of Mordiggian
Removed Assault Cuirass
Added Mjonllir to Situational Items
IO
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Jakiro
(to verify Updated skill build: WQQEQEQEERRWWW) (maxing Dual-Breath first, Liquid Fire second)
Updated Description for Ice Path
Updated Description for Dual Breath
Updated Description for Liquid Fire
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Keeper of the Light
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Legion Commander [Jungle]
Updated Skill Build: WEEWEREWWQRQQQ (getting first level of Press the Attack first and then two in Moment of Courage)
- Leshrac
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Lina
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Lion
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Meepo
Updated Skill Build: QWRWWEWQQRQEEE (Getting United We Stand faster)
Mirana
Moved Desolator to Core
Moved Manta Style to Situational Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
- Ogre Magi
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Omniknight
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Pudge
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Removed Drums of Endurance
- Pugna
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
Rubick
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Queen of Pain
Removed Shiva's Guard
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
- Shadow Demon
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Shadow Shaman
Updated Skill Build: QWWEQRQEEERWWW (maxing Shackles second)
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Tidehunter
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Tinker
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Damage-Dealer Items
- Treant Protector
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Undying
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Warlock
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Witch Doctor
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Windranger
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Vengeful Spirit
Added description for Desolator
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Venomancer
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Flying Courier to Utility Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
- Visage
Created Utility Items Tab
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
New guides should be published now
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United States47024 Posts
Phoenix items are mostly just whatever team items your team needs. Arcanes, Mek, Vlad's, Necrobook, Sheep, etc. Whatever you can afford really. Lategame Refresher is cute.
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Does Terrorblade need two guides (one jungling, one laning) or would putting him as only jungle be relevant?
I don't know Phoenix at all including starting/early/core, etc. nor item builds so I will have to read up on this hero a bit ):
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United States47024 Posts
I wouldn't jungle TB anymore. This version of TB doesn't have the combination of skills that made him a good jungler in past versions.
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If he's like LC and Lifestealer in terms of jungling capabilties, I'll still make a guide despite his efficiency being slightly lower. I want the guides to safeguard all possible forms of playing a hero.
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Considering his only ability that could possibly make him a not-shit jungler is his illusion maker, his jungle capability is probably on the level of say a naga or a PL. As in, DO NOT DO THIS. (PL can actually jungle fairly well but shhhhhh).
I'd have to see the numbers on his illusion ability but really, just lane him lol.
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United States47024 Posts
No as in, this version he has no inherent regen skills like his old life drain or Zeal.
Jungle TB was a relic of him still having life drain.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On January 29 2014 05:41 Torte de Lini wrote:
If he's like LC and Lifestealer in terms of jungling capabilties, I'll still make a guide despite his efficiency being slightly lower. I want the guides to safeguard all possible forms of playing a hero.
Old TB had a spell similar to Pugna's ultimate, allowing him to jungle easily. That was completely removed, so no more jungling.
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United States47024 Posts
He also suggests leveling Reflection last in all situations when Reflection is probably his strongest skill.
Reflection vs. Meta depends on pace of the game, but Conjure Image maxed any point other than last is extremely questionable. The skill just isn't strong until you have Meta maxed and at least 1 major item.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On January 29 2014 01:02 -Celestial- wrote:
Fair enough. Just seemed an unusual one to leave out.
I bring it up because in general when I play Void I always seem to end up going one of three routes:
- Supercarry if I can get total freefarm and space. Midas into Battlefury into farming absolutely everything. Classic 6-slot lategame position 1.
- Early fights. Which is MoM if my team is yelling about fighting RIGHT NOW. Its probably the single item that gives you the most killing power the fastest as Void. But leaves you incredibly vulnerable. I'm not a fan but needs must sometimes.
- Somewhere in the middle. If I think its likely to go late-ish and I can get some sort of farm I tend to look for Maelstrom. This provides some early power so you can get involved if needed but also provides a little extra farming ability. And builds into Mjollnir which is a useful lategame item for Void anyway. Probably the safest route.
100% agree with this. Kind of what I was trying to say earlier, just much more well said. :D Also, I think you could remove AC from the situational items. It's not really an item you want to have as Void. You don't need the armor as an agi carry, raw hp and magic immunity is much more important for you if you need survivability. And the dps you get for the cost is really not that impressive. Mjolnir definitely is much more common and better lategame item.
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Done. Removed AC for Mjonllir.
Now the dilemma of Terrorblade and Phoenix. I get Terrorblade, but I hate how his initial levels are very one or the other.
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New Hero Guides
Terrorblade
Position: Lane
Skill Build: Q W E Q Q R Q E E E R W W W (1. Reflection, 2. Metamorphosis, 3. Conjure Image)
Starting Items: Tango, Clarity, Shield, 3x branch
Early Game items: PMS, Boots,
Core Items: Treads, Yasha, Black King Bar
Situational Items: Quelling Blade, Manta Style, Diffusal
Extension Items: Sange & Yasha, Butterfly, Satanic, Monkey King Bar
Phoenix
Position: Middle
Skill Build: Q W W E W R W Q Q Q R E E E (1. Fire Spirits, 2. Icarus Dive 3. Sun Ray)
Starting Items: Tangos, Salve, 3 branches
Early Game items: Bottle, Boots
Core Items: Treads, Mekansm
Situational Items: Wand, Urn, Pipe, Ghost Scepter
Extension Items: Heart, Veil, Shiva's Guard, Eth. Blade
Not final, still figuring them out -
Phoenix: Not sure about Eth. Blade, but Ghost Scepter seems smart. Fire Spirits sounds the safest and best with Icarus Dive being quite useful once you hit Six for ganks. Treads for more survivability and standard core items. Looking to add more for Situational/Extension Items because I know I skipped a lot. I understand Phoenix is quite versatile, so if we have to break him up like Nature's Prophet guide, let me know how.
Terrorblade: A lot harder to figure out, I prefer reflection over Metamorphosis at the beginning. His items are the hardest part. Thanks Yango for the skill build tip.
Can we skip ult until level 9-10??
Item builds, sounds like Manta and S&Y are popular.
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Looking for feedback and to round them out properly if anyone knows better (which you very likely do).
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On January 29 2014 06:02 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 01:02 -Celestial- wrote:
Fair enough. Just seemed an unusual one to leave out.
I bring it up because in general when I play Void I always seem to end up going one of three routes:
- Supercarry if I can get total freefarm and space. Midas into Battlefury into farming absolutely everything. Classic 6-slot lategame position 1.
- Early fights. Which is MoM if my team is yelling about fighting RIGHT NOW. Its probably the single item that gives you the most killing power the fastest as Void. But leaves you incredibly vulnerable. I'm not a fan but needs must sometimes.
- Somewhere in the middle. If I think its likely to go late-ish and I can get some sort of farm I tend to look for Maelstrom. This provides some early power so you can get involved if needed but also provides a little extra farming ability. And builds into Mjollnir which is a useful lategame item for Void anyway. Probably the safest route. 100% agree with this. Kind of what I was trying to say earlier, just much more well said. :D Also, I think you could remove AC from the situational items. It's not really an item you want to have as Void. You don't need the armor as an agi carry, raw hp and magic immunity is much more important for you if you need survivability. And the dps you get for the cost is really not that impressive. Mjolnir definitely is much more common and better lategame item.
If you are not the only hero with damage on your team and nobody else gets an ac you might as well get it. I don't even understand how there can be too many situational items, if a hero has 20 situational good items you should list 20.
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On January 29 2014 22:58 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 06:02 cecek wrote:On January 29 2014 01:02 -Celestial- wrote:
Fair enough. Just seemed an unusual one to leave out.
I bring it up because in general when I play Void I always seem to end up going one of three routes:
- Supercarry if I can get total freefarm and space. Midas into Battlefury into farming absolutely everything. Classic 6-slot lategame position 1.
- Early fights. Which is MoM if my team is yelling about fighting RIGHT NOW. Its probably the single item that gives you the most killing power the fastest as Void. But leaves you incredibly vulnerable. I'm not a fan but needs must sometimes.
- Somewhere in the middle. If I think its likely to go late-ish and I can get some sort of farm I tend to look for Maelstrom. This provides some early power so you can get involved if needed but also provides a little extra farming ability. And builds into Mjollnir which is a useful lategame item for Void anyway. Probably the safest route. 100% agree with this. Kind of what I was trying to say earlier, just much more well said. :D Also, I think you could remove AC from the situational items. It's not really an item you want to have as Void. You don't need the armor as an agi carry, raw hp and magic immunity is much more important for you if you need survivability. And the dps you get for the cost is really not that impressive. Mjolnir definitely is much more common and better lategame item. If you are not the only hero with damage on your team and nobody else gets an ac you might as well get it. I don't even understand how there can be too many situational items, if a hero has 20 situational good items you should list 20.
Because it becomes counter-intuitive to the point of the guides where you should orient the player towards what's most relevatn and what's not. Otherwise it can be overwhelming, especially if I have to make notes for each and every item under the situation. There are discrepancies around my MMR and lower where a general gist of needed items are acceptable under most situations.
It's a very fine-line and I'm a lot more flexible now than before (with guides like Slardar and Nature's Prophet especially). But I don't want 50 items under situational to encompass every possible scenario. After awhile, players stop trusting the guides and using their own understanding of the game to buy items not listed.
But I like to limit situational to about 3 to 5, with exceptions for a lot more technical and demanding heroes like Puck and such.
That's my feeling.
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I think you have a good outlook on the guides Torte, which is probably why most of them are so good. I use them for almost every hero and I feel that the most important part is without a doubt the core (really nice with heroes like Jugger, where you have two clear cores depending on what your aim is). When I got my core, I almost always go for the extension items.
IMO, situational items are not all that important in guides, since they are situational. If you're good enough to know when to get situational items, you're probably good enough to know which items to get. What most people who need guides are looking for, it just direction, the basics of how the hero should be played. Tons of characters can go for a shadow blade if they are getting snowbally and want to keep snowballing, doesn't mean it has to be listed in every guide.
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EPT
