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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 321

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Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
June 21 2016 22:10 GMT
#6401
Roaming riki = support riki, not offlane riki.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-21 22:53:53
June 21 2016 22:48 GMT
#6402
Riki's awkward because core riki is perfectly fine, and a lot of people subscribed to your guide will be confused if you go all-in on the support one.

I don't personally mind calling it offlane, because it's a bit of a middle ground that's not too terrible even if someone uses it to play core. Riki's very unique in that his support and core builds are similar enough for a compromise to be possible.

If you go full roaming support that kind of stops working because his starting/early ends up full of wards/cour/etc, and the core guys go look for a different guide.

Really, he needs two guides. If you're not willing to add or delete guides, maybe it's better to set him back to core?



I'm a fan of veil before blink puck. The double null is ridiculously good for laning and veil speeds up your farming significantly. You get a slightly later blink in exchange for a much faster everything else.


WR guide could just be a duplicate at the moment. Support/offlane doesn't see much play and it's less work to maintain a copy.

I'd be more inclined to try and find a support build to justify the second guide's existence if you weren't maintaining a dozen even more pointless duplicates already.


SF I don't mind aghs. I don't think it's as bad as people say, but it's a totally different build. You can't just throw it in.


Why is prophet still a dual guide? Get rid of that nonsense and do phase drums mael.
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-21 23:56:03
June 21 2016 23:55 GMT
#6403
no offlane riki =/= roaming. you either have to go with support (which is what he is doing at the 4 pos, roaming) or delete the guide before making him an offlane guide.

again, your (lack of) presence is noticed when you're not stationary in the offlane. and if you're not in the offlane,you cant farm the hard camp. so where are you? likely roaming on mid.

a proper 4 position does not necessarily buy any starting support items, but roaming riki certainly purchases sentries and places wards because he doesnt break invis upon using items like a bounty hunter would
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-22 00:15:23
June 22 2016 00:12 GMT
#6404
First, calling it "offlane" doesn't preclude him leaving the lane. A lot of offlaners are expected to gank pre-6 at various points. Plus I suspect he's in a dual lane most of the time anyway in 2k, which makes the distinction between 3 and 4pos very blurred for a lot of these heroes.

I agree it's not optimal. The question is whether it's a workable middle ground that keeps his existing subscribers happy, since that seems to be Torte's main goal at the moment.

However, as I said, if we're not willing to create a second guide then the best thing to do is probably just to set it back to core.

If Torte is feeling brave he could certainly set it to full support. I think that would probably cause a lot of pubstar rikis to subscribe to a different guide, but I could certainly be wrong. It's popular enough that a minor dip probably isn't fatal.

There's no reason to delete it, either way.
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-22 00:15:17
June 22 2016 00:14 GMT
#6405
pubs tend to follow professional trends, i doubt he would see subscriber numbers dip if he made the guide into something that wins pro games

(and at lower levels of play, lanes are stagnant, so no they will not leave their lane)
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-22 16:48:00
June 22 2016 16:39 GMT
#6406
I'd just leave the Riki as Core and put a small section of roaming items (tranquils, urn, force staff, vlads or something like that). It's actually not that bad to roam with a goal of basically the core build eventually. You want to level smoke first on roaming riki, but it's not strictly required in a lot of situations. Just drop the Utility Items section for a Core (Roam).

The name is unfortunate in that case I guess, but I don't think there's a strong need for 2 guides if Torte really doesn't want to add one.
Logo
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
June 22 2016 16:54 GMT
#6407
again, the whole purpose of the new naming system was to designate farm priority. if riki is roaming, his money comes from kills, not hitting creeps.

listing him as a "core" makes literally no sense if you're gonna give him roaming items.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 22 2016 19:43 GMT
#6408
Ok, a lot of feedback. Let me see.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 22 2016 20:25 GMT
#6409
The amount of messages I'm getting for that stupid Nature's Prophet bug is driving me insane.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-24 00:23:02
June 22 2016 20:25 GMT
#6410
Kunkka (Core)
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Moved Armlet of Mordiggian to Core Items
Removed Assault Cuirass

Timbersaw
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Added Hood of Defiance to Situational Items

IO
Removed Animal Courier
Removed Observer Wards x2
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Iron Branch

Wraith King
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Removed Monkey King Bar

Lifestealer (Core)
Lifestealer (Jungle)
Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Removed Monkey King Bar

Timbersaw
New Skill Build: E W E Q E R W W W Q R Q Q E R (1. Timber Chain 2. Whirling Death 3. Reactive Armor).
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Scythe of Vyse

Ursa (Core)
New Skill Build: E Q W E W R E E W W R Q Q Q R (1. Fury Swipes 2. Overpower 3. Earthshock)

Centaur Warrunner
Moved Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Moved Pipe of Insight to Extension Items

Pudge
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Removed Aghanim's Scepter
Removed Wind Lace

Razor
New Skill Build: W Q W Q Q E Q R W W R E E E (1. Plasma Field 2.Static Link 3. Unstable Current)
Added Dragon Lance to Core Items
Added Hurricane Pike to Situational Items
Removed Ring of Aquila

Crystal Maiden
New Skill Build: W E E Q Q Q Q R E E R W W W R (1. Crystal Nova 2. Arcane Aura 3. Frostbite)
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items

Slardar
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Removed Monkey King Bar

Sniper (Core - Safe Lane)
Sniper (Core - Middle)
Added Mask of Madness to Situational Items
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Manta Style to Core Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Butterfly

Terrorblade
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Added Dragon Lance to Core Items
Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Moved Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Boots of Travel - Level 2 to "Luxury Items"
Moved Daedalus to "Luxury Items"
Moved Butterfly to "Luxury Items"
Moved Satanic to "Luxury Items"
Removed Ring of Protection
Removed Butterfly

Brewmaster (Core)
New Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Thunder Clap 2. Drunken Brawler 3. Drunken Haze)

Drow Ranger
New Skill Build: E Q E W E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Precision Aura 2. Gust 3. Frost Arrows)
Added Yasha to Core Items
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Manta Style to Core Items
Removed Shadow Blade

Witch Doctor
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Paralyzing Cask 2. Maledict 3. Voodoo Restoration)
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Removed Refresher Orb

Shadow Fiend
Added Manta Style to Extension Items
Moved Bottle to Core Items
Removed Helm of the Dominator

Puck
Added Null Talisman to Core Items
Added Veil of Discord to Core Items
Removed Magic Wand

Faceless Void
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W (1. Time Walk 2. Time Lock 3. Time Dilation
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Added Quelling Blade to Early Game
Added Echo Sabre to Situational Items
Moved Magic Wand to Core Items
Moved Diffusal Blade - Level 1 to Extension Items
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Faerie Fire
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Iron Talon

Silencer (Core)
New Skill Build: W Q Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Arcane Curse 2. Last Word 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Added Null Talisman to Early Game
Added Veil of Discord to Core Items
Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
Moved Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Removed Shadow Blade

Sand King
New Skill Build: Q WW Q W Q W Q R E R E E E R (1. Sand Storm 2. Burrowstrike 3. Caustic Finale)
Added Clarity to Starting Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Removed Animal Courier
Removed Observer Ward
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Wind Lace

Renamed Offlane
Abaddon
Added Stout Shield to Starting Items
Moved Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Situational Items
Removed Ring of Protection
Removed Animal Courier



Switch to Offlane (?)
Is Q maxed last? Item build now Hurricane Pike into Atos into BKB?
Move Bfury to situational items. Consider Vanguard (note: Regen for farming is easier + use blink strike + Dagger to farm faster). Vlad's to Situational Items, consider BKB to Core + One survival item [Satanic/Heart??]
outdated item build
starting items
late-game items
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-22 21:19:16
June 22 2016 21:03 GMT
#6411
I really don't understand these Faceless Void competitive builds:

Max Bash second with Manta Style + Diffusal before Blink Dagger

Even with the usual offlane build, still max Bash: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2447138580

I understand Diffusal + Manta Style means more attack speed, Bashes, mana burn during Chronosphere (with illusions working inside) + Mana burn, but is it worth the trade-off of blinking [freeing up your Time Walk] and Vlad's to farm during the early stages?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
June 22 2016 21:31 GMT
#6412
what good is maxing time dilation before bash anyway?

youre never gonna need to use it more than once per fight anyway, which for a long while, will only be when you have chronosphere up. you get the same amount of slow per CD, just at a shorter duration..but 6s is long enough early on anyway.

but again, you only want to fight around your chronosphere cooldown early and timelock doesn't increase the effectiveness of your chronosphere.

R>Q>E>W
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 22 2016 21:37 GMT
#6413
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/87296354/matches?hero=silencer

This guy's Mid (Core) Silencer build gets Q last, wtf?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-22 21:45:35
June 22 2016 21:45 GMT
#6414
he doesnt get a single point in his glaives in a couple of his games which is certainly not the play. in his most recent game, he also gets agha which im pretty sure is a bad idea as a core silencer.

not sure i would pay any attention to that guy.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 22 2016 21:46 GMT
#6415
I updated both Faceless Void build (still Vlad's -> Blink, Extension: Manta + Diffusal Blade).
Not sure if I should put Diffusal Blade or Manta Style earlier as helps in fights earlier on and the other helps with farming also.

(Core):

I update his skill build to have an early point in W + Veil into Force Staff then Extension (Atos in Situational). I'm still not sure how to build him appropriately or if an early point in W is necessary (since we're going veil -> two Null Taslismans)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 22 2016 21:46 GMT
#6416
On June 23 2016 06:45 BluemoonSC wrote:
he doesnt get a single point in his glaives in a couple of his games which is certainly not the play. in his most recent game, he also gets agha which im pretty sure is a bad idea as a core silencer.

not sure i would pay any attention to that guy.


I think Aghanim's is really strong, but that's because I really like Silencer's Q ability.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-22 21:52:51
June 22 2016 21:48 GMT
#6417
faceless, probably could go for morbid mask treads yasha?

silencer, w is 100% necessary. its an orb which allows you to harass your opponent without attracting the attention of creeps. it gives you control over the lane.

On June 23 2016 06:46 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2016 06:45 BluemoonSC wrote:
he doesnt get a single point in his glaives in a couple of his games which is certainly not the play. in his most recent game, he also gets agha which im pretty sure is a bad idea as a core silencer.

not sure i would pay any attention to that guy.


I think Aghanim's is really strong, but that's because I really like Silencer's Q ability.


dont forget his agi gain got a huge buff this patch. you're gonna see a lot more right click/control (atos, hex, hurricane pike) than utility as a result.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-22 21:50:10
June 22 2016 21:50 GMT
#6418
I'll do the last 3 (OD, PA, NP) later tonight.

I'm going to wait on Riki. I am 100% confident he is going to be classified as Offlane - Sub-title: Roaming, but have to break down how I want to go about it.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
June 22 2016 21:50 GMT
#6419
void bash is a lot of dmg
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-22 22:08:08
June 22 2016 22:07 GMT
#6420
On June 23 2016 06:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'll do the last 3 (OD, PA, NP) later tonight.

I'm going to wait on Riki. I am 100% confident he is going to be classified as Offlane - Sub-title: Roaming, but have to break down how I want to go about it.


im gonna be so mad at you if i get rikis in my pubs going offlane taking up a lane instead of playing a proper 4 position roamer lol
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
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