EPT- This latest update and hero builds changes was made possible thanks to the feedback and knowledge of the following community members. Sincere thank you to: Belisarius, TheYango, Buckyman, Logo, Velzi, Nevuk, Sn0_Man, BluemoonSC, Birdie
- 14.53% of last month's unique players [12,584,557] are subscribed to the our highest subscribed guide:
Lifestealer (Jungle) Guide -
Enigma (1,016,592) -
Lina (Lane) (1,014,787) -
Rubick (1,014,311) recently hit the 1 million mark - Five guides are currently swimming towards the 1 million mark: (993,920),
(983,460), (976,611), (971,091), 
(965,006) - Top 60 guides are approx. 1Mill subscribers or higher each
- Top 78 guides are approx. 900k subscribers or higher each
- Top 93 guides are approx. 800k subscribers or higher each
- Top 111 guides are approx. 700k subscribers or higher each
- Top 124 guides are approx. 600k subscribers or higher each
- Top 129 guides are approx. 500k subscribers or higher each
- Top 139 guides are approx. 400k subscribers or higher each
- Top 142 guides are approx. 300k subscribers or higher each
- Top 146 guides are approx. 200k subscribers or higher each
- Top 147 guides are approx. 100k subscribers or higher each
In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 295
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On March 28 2016 15:09 Torte de Lini wrote: I don't have enough pub info, both in live pubs and comp. to see how Sniper is played mid. In which case it would make sense to stick with the standard from last time he was relevant, rather than change it, no? | ||
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On March 28 2016 17:35 Belisarius wrote: In which case it would make sense to stick with the standard from last time he was relevant, rather than change it, no? correct: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2125977137 That is the only time he was played recently. 4 months ago, at SL-I, it was max Shrapnel in pub matches, they mostly max Range | ||
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logawa
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On March 30 2016 23:37 logawa wrote: The tooltip of Assassinate in the Sniper builds is telling the player to activate his mask of madness, but the item is not on your guides anymore. Thanks, I'll fix that! | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Kfoc8rq.png) 1 million unique for Outworld Devourer If interested in a timeline of 1 million hits and milestones, you can check it here: http://steamcommunity.com/id/0825771 | ||
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logawa
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On March 31 2016 03:33 logawa wrote: What about Deso + Vlads + Medallion on Phantom Assassin? I removed it because it wasn't that often played and just needlessly confused players. | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
On April 01 2016 05:09 Torte de Lini wrote: Out of a job, so now I can work on the guides more devotedly. Ah that sucks, you think it's going to be long? | ||
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On April 01 2016 05:11 Birdie wrote: Ah that sucks, you think it's going to be long? At least April and May minimum. Thanks for asking. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
lets work on those titles/roles, tho. how is that coming along? | ||
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On April 01 2016 05:28 BluemoonSC wrote: sorry to hear that torte. lets work on those titles/roles, tho. how is that coming along? I'm just going to go manually through the list and see which titles are least used and potentially remove them or make them a sub-role. | ||
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Last updated: 1/4/16 - Removed "Middle" Title, dropped it down to a sub-title - Changed Pudge from "Roam" to "Core" - Changed Pugna from "Core" to "Support" - Changed Techies from "Roam" to "Support" - Changed Spirit Breaker from "Roam" to "Core" - Changed Bounty Hunter from "Roam" to "Support" - Changed Bristleback - Moved Alchemist (Lane) from "Delete" to "Minor Changes" - Alchemist (Lane) to become "Support" - Moved Earth Spirit (Middle) from "Delete" to "Major Changes" - Earth Spirit (Middle) to become "Core" - Moved Lone Druid (Jungle) from "Delete" to "Unchanged" - Removed Vengeful Spirit (Core) New Guide suggestion - Removed Zeus (Support) New Guide suggestion - Removed Pudge (Core) New Guide suggestion - Removed Pugna (Support) New Guide suggestion - Removed Venomancer (Core) New Guide suggestion - Removed Tusk (Core) New Guide suggestion - Removed Wraith King (Support) New Guide suggestion - See blue for sub-role classification 10/3/16 - Adjusted planned deleted guides to be lowest subscribed versions, - Added commentary on guides to keep/alter/remove - combined "probably delete" with "delete" - combined "probably new" with "new" - to discuss: Legion Commander (Jungle) that has been suggested via Belisarius - to discuss: Nyx Assassin (Middle) to Core or combine as "support" with a Middle Subtitle/Tab - to discuss: Warlock (Middle) to delete - is the playstyle/build all that different? - to discuss: Windranger (Lane) to delete - is support Windranger worthwhile to keep? - to discuss: Vengeful Spirit (Core) to create - is not a FOTM or a value way of playing? - to discuss: Wraith King (Support) to create - not a fan, would prefer not to - to discuss: Spirit Breaker (Offlane) to create - is this not core? Skill build differences? - to discuss: Enigma (Offlane) - separate tab from Jungle (though the title would be Support) or? - to discuss: Nature's Prophet (Offlane) - separate tab from Jungle (though the title would be Core) or? 1/6/16 - Removed Protocol as it is no longer pertinent - All guides to be removed or added will be on hold until the system is more accommodating to newly created guides: When I created the  Invoker Hero Build in May 2016. It was to test current initial interest for alternative playstyle new guides (Quas/Wex comparison to Quas/Exort (904,000). The last time I created a hero build was in May 2015 for Arc Warden. As you can see in current results, it is proving to be very difficult for new hero builds of current heroes (i.e not based on new hero releases) despite having over 4,000 followers and being among the last remaining popular hero builds creators - advantages I assumed would alleviate the challenge of this new system. The test Invoker hero build proved I was wrong and so I am not ready to commit in removing old hero builds and creating new ones in view of the loss of current subscribers and the inability to populate newer hero builds. A challenge all remaining hero build creators are facing.+ Show Spoiler [System Suggestions - Mar 10] + Unchanged, except for renaming Abaddon -> Support (Reduce build into just support [no core]) Support Ancient Apparition (Lane) -> Support Support  Anti-Mage -> Core Safe Lane Axe (Jungle) Jungle Axe (Lane) -> Offlane Offlane Bane -> Support Support Batrider -> Offlane Offlane + Jungle Starting Items Bloodseeker (Middle) (Change into Jungle Guide) Jungle Bristleback -> Core Safe Lane + Offlane Starting Items Broodmother -> Offlane OfflaneCentaur Warrunner -> Offlane Offlane Chaos Knight -> Core Safe Lane Chen -> Jungle Jungle Clinkz -> Core Safe Lane Clockwerk -> Offlane OfflaneCrystal Maiden -> Support Support  Dark Seer -> Offlane Offlane Dazzle -> Support SupportDeath Prophet -> Core Middle Starting Items  Disruptor -> Support Support Doom (Jungle) Jungle Doom (Lane) -> Core Safe LaneDragon Knight (Lane) -> Core (Merge Middle/Lane Guide) Safe Lane + Middle Starting Items Drow Ranger -> Core Safe Lane  Earthshaker -> Support SupportEarth Spirit (Lane) -> Support Support + Offlane Starting Items Elder Titan (Lane) -> Support Support  Enchantress -> Jungle Jungle Enigma -> Jungle JungleFaceless Void -> Offlane Offlane  Huskar -> Core Safe Lane + Middle Starting Items Invoker -> Core QW Safe Lane + Middle Starting ItemsIO -> Support Support  Jakiro -> Support Support Juggernaut -> Core Safe LaneKeeper of the Light -> Support Support  Lich -> Support Support Lifestealer (Lane) -> Core Safe Lane Lifestealer (Jungle) Jungle Lion -> Support SupportLone Druid (Lane) -> Core Safe Lane Lone Druid (Jungle) Jungle  Luna -> Core Safe LaneLycan (Lane) -> Core Safe Lane Lycan (Jungle) Jungle  Magnus -> Core Middle + Offlane Starting Items Medusa -> Core Safe Lane + Middle Starting Items Meepo -> Core Safe Lane Mirana -> Core Safe Lane + Offlane Starting Items Morphling -> Core Safe LaneNaga Siren (Middle) -> Core Safe Lane + Middle Starting Items Nature's Prophet -> Core Safe Lane + Jungle Starting Items Necrophos -> Core Safe Lane Night Stalker -> Offlane Offlane + Middle Starting Items Nyx Assassin (Lane) -> Support Support + Offlane Starting Items Ogre Magi -> Support Support  Omniknight -> Support SupportOracle (Lane) -> Support Support Outworld Devourer -> Core Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items  Phantom Assassin -> Core Safe Lane Phantom Lancer -> Core Safe LanePhoenix (Lane) -> Support Offlane  Puck -> Core Middle Pudge -> Core Middle + Roaming Starting Items Pugna -> Support SupportQueen of Pain -> Core Middle  Razor -> Core Middle Riki -> Core Safe Lane Rubick -> Support SupportSand King -> Support Support  Shadow Demon -> Support Support Shadow Fiend -> Core Middle Shadow Shaman (Lane) -> Support Support Skywrath Mage (Lane) -> Support Support  Slardar -> Offlane Offlane + Safe Lane Starting Items Slark (Lane) -> Core Safe Lane  Sniper (Lane) -> Core Safe Lane Spectre -> Core Safe LaneStorm Spirit -> Core Middle  Sven -> Core Safe LaneTechies -> Support Roaming Templar Assassin -> Core Middle Terrorblade -> Core Safe Lane  Tidehunter -> Offlane Offlane Timbersaw -> Offlane Offlane Tinker -> Core MiddleTreant Protector -> Support Support Troll Warlord (Lane) -> Core Safe Lane  Tusk -> Support Safe Support Undying -> Offlane Offlane Ursa (Jungle) Jungle Ursa (Lane) -> Core Safe LaneVengeful Spirit -> Support Support  Venomancer -> Support Support Viper -> Core Middle Visage -> Support Support Warlock (Lane) -> Support Support Weaver (Lane) -> Core (Merge Middle/Lane Guide) Safe Lane + Middle Starting ItemsWinter Wyvern -> Support Support  Witch Doctor -> Support SupportWraith King -> Core Safe Lane  Zeus -> Core MiddleMinor changes, usually merging a mid/safelane guide into a core guide  Alchemist (Middle) -> Core Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items Alchemist (Lane) -> Support Safe LaneArc Warden (Middle) -> Core Safe Lane + Middle Starting Items  Beastmaster (Lane) -> Core Offlane + Middle Starting Items Bloodseeker (Lane) -> Core Safe Lane + Middle Starting Items Brewmaster (Lane) -> Core (Merge Middle/Lane Guide) Safe Lane + Middle Starting ItemsElder Titan (Middle) -> Core Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items Ember Spirit (Lane) -> Core (Merge Middle/Lane Guide) Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items  Gyrocopter (Lane) -> Core Safe Lane Kunkka (Middle) -> Core Middle + Safe Lane Starting ItemsLegion Commander (Lane) -> Core (Merge Middle/Lane Guide) Safe Lane + Middle Starting Items  Leshrac (Middle) -> Core Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items Lina (Middle) -> Core Middle + Safe Lane Starting ItemsNyx Assassin (Middle) -> Core Middle + Offlane Starting Items Phoenix (Middle) -> Core Offlane  Silencer (Middle) -> Core Middle + Safe LaneSpirit Breaker -> Core Safe Lane Starting Items  Tiny (Lane) -> Core (Merge Middle/Lane Guide) Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items Warlock (Middle) -> Core MiddleWindranger (Lane) -> Core Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items Major changes, generally turning a spare mid/safe guide into a support Arc Warden (Lane) -> Support Offlane + Safe Lane Starting Items Bounty Hunter -> Support Roaming Earth Spirit (Middle) -> Core Middle + Offlane Starting Items Kunkka (Lane) -> Support Offlane + Middle Starting Items Leshrac (Lane) -> Support Safe Lane Lina (Lane) -> Support Safe LaneLegion Commander (Middle) -> Jungle Jungle Naga Siren (Lane) -> Support Safe Lane + Offlane Starting Items Silencer (Lane) -> Support Safe LaneWindranger (Middle) -> Support Safe Lane + Offlane Starting Items Delete: redundant guides from mid/safe merge with no other use (DELAYED) (check pairs and delete the one with least subscribers) Bloodseeker (Jungle) Replaced Middle guide to Jungle Guide Brewmaster (Middle) Replaced Lane guide to Middle GuideDragon Knight (Middle) Replaced Lane guide to Middle Guide Ember Spirit (Middle) Delete Slark (Middle) Delete Sniper (Middle) Delete Tiny (Middle) Replaced Lane guide to Middle Guide - Transfer Patreon Credit to Lane GuideTroll Warlord (Middle) Delete Weaver (Middle) DeleteAncient Apparition (Middle) Delete Beastmaster (Middle) -> Support? Delete Gyrocopter (Middle) -> Support? DeleteOracle (Middle) Delete - Merge alternate (Meka/Core) Oracle is in other build Shadow Shaman (Middle) DeleteSkywrath Mage (Middle) New guides (DELAYED) Enchantress Offlane Offlane Invoker Core QE Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items Mirana Support RoamingBounty Hunter Offlane Offlane Morph Offlane OfflaneSpirit Breaker Offlane Offlane Support Offlane It might be worth labeling a few very specific heroes as "roam", like techies, pudge, spiritbreaker and bounty. It would get us around having to create their parallel guides. My instinct is that a lot of 2k players would avoid subscribing to a pudge guide that explicitly labels them a support, but would be comfortable with roam. Original - BELISARIUS Roles: these will be in the title, intended to distinguish itself both in terms of expectation of priority farm and role, as well as to separate its intention to alternative guides + Show Spoiler [Role/Sub-Role Breakdown - Mar 10] + Core: + Carries + Core Item purchasers Support: can be changed for "Utility" to accommodate heroes that are offensive (Spirit Breaker/Night Stalker), but purchase wards/utility items + Starving Supports/Utility Heroes/Roamers + Meka/Pipe/Defensive Item carriers Offlane: + Initiating Supports + Solo-Offlane oriented + to add: 1 observer ward to block camp and/or to cover nearby enemy forest Jungle: + To avoid deleting too many guides + Skill/Item Build differentiating Sub-roles (partial split tabs in guides): these sub-roles will be written next to the Core Items tab title. e.g: Core - Roaming Middle Support (and/or Utility - [Hard Support]) Safe Lane/Offlane Roam | ||
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See changelog. We'll be delaying adding "new" guides until we transition all current guides. I'm not sure how we're going to fit both Starting Items (Safe Lane) and Starting Items (Offlane) and such considering you cannot change the title for "Starting Items" tab, you just have to add another tab. Could be an issue of room. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BUkCNf9.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MWGp35m.png) | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
This was the last rough consensus from the previous discussion. On March 15 2016 08:24 Belisarius wrote: Keep: (C),  (->S), (C), (J), (->J), (C),Add: (S), QE, (S), (O), (C/O)Delete: , , , , , , , , (C), (C), (C), (C), (S), (S)Consider: (C), (O), (C), (S), (C), (O), (C), (O/C), (C)I personally don't believe offlane Furion is necessary because Furion builds exactly the same from jungle or lane, but if we feel we need it then it's not the end of the world. There was significant discussion on Nyx, WR etc several pages back. It seems pointless to keep putting the same questions in your list as "for discussion" without responding to the comments people have already made. The space is certainly a concern, but you did pick one of the weirdest heroes to demonstrate it. Show us an example of a hero that is doing this from the lane/mid merge so we can see where it goes. In my opinion the extension/luxury split is redundant in a lot of cases, so that would be the first thing to look at cutting if we run out of space. | ||
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On April 02 2016 10:52 Belisarius wrote: You keep making strange changes to the new guides. Why have you added morphing, bounty and SB and removed zeus? Support zeus is far more relevant than any of those other three. I realise that we aren't adding anything for the next little while, but silent changes in the night are not the way to go here. This was the last rough consensus from the previous discussion. I personally don't believe offlane Furion is necessary because Furion builds exactly the same from jungle or lane, but if we feel we need it then it's not the end of the world. There was significant discussion on Nyx, WR etc several pages back. It seems pointless to keep putting the same questions in your list as "for discussion" without responding to the comments people have already made. The space is certainly a concern, but you did pick one of the weirdest heroes to demonstrate it. Show us an example of a hero that is doing this from the lane/mid merge so we can see where it goes. In my opinion the extension/luxury split is redundant in a lot of cases, so that would be the first thing to look at cutting if we run out of space. http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-130-million-subscriptions?page=291#5805 This post has not been updated since March 10th. In that post , you can see that Morphling, Bounty and Spirit Breaker were all suggested and were not newly added in this most recent post. In other words, I did not add anything but continuing where we last left off back in March. Any changes I make are publicly made and posted in the changelog (see red) and post-dated to avoid confusion or be misleading. Under "Keep", I kept them all. Under "Add', I added all minus Zeus. I can change that, but it is a build I am not familiar with and so updating it regularly would be difficult because it is not regularly played either. I also didn't feel Zeus support was all that in demand or desirable from a professional standpoint or for newer players. It feels like we're filling a gap for future use without really seeing any historical value in the past. If we can replace it another guide we feel has even less value/priority and use, then I don't mind swapping them. Under "Delete", I am deleting them all as noted previously. Under "Consider", I removed Vengeful Spirit, Faceless Void, Pugna, Pudge, Tusk, Venomancer. - Removed Vengeful Spirit (Core) New Guide suggestion - Removed Zeus (Support) New Guide suggestion - Removed Pudge (Core) New Guide suggestion - Removed Pugna (Support) New Guide suggestion - Removed Venomancer (Core) New Guide suggestion - Removed Tusk (Core) New Guide suggestion - Removed Wraith King (Support) New Guide suggestion As you can see, these are noted in the changelog and not "silent" changes. I don't want any "under consideration" for future guides because there is already a massive laundry list of things to do to make this transition and we can consider future guides that we aren't already in agreement of later on when we see how this new system plays out. If it is easier, we can remove al'together the "New Guides" section from the current breakdown of coming changes to this transition to avoid discussion on activation we won't be doing for awhile (or at least after the big hump of changes needed for current published guides. I personally don't believe offlane Furion is necessary because Furion builds exactly the same from jungle or lane, but if we feel we need it then it's not the end of the world. It depends how we want to build Furion. Because the current one is maxed out completely. So we can do a completely different build and strategy instead of trying to fit in 3 builds we currently have on one guide (and have to somehow fit in two different starting item tabs). Let me know what you think given this situation. There was significant discussion on Nyx, WR etc several pages back. It seems pointless to keep putting the same questions in your list as "for discussion" without responding to the comments people have already made. None are noted as "For Discussion" any more. The last thing I did was add "Sub-roles" in Blue, I need help ensuring that the lanes/roles they would be in are accurate | ||
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Belisarius
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On April 02 2016 11:46 Torte de Lini wrote: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-130-million-subscriptions?page=291#5805 This post has not been updated since March 10th. In that post , you can see that Morphling, Bounty and Spirit Breaker were all suggested and were not newly added in this most recent post. In other words, I did not add anything but continuing where we last left off back in March. But that wasn't where we left off. There were several pages of discussion which arrived at the list that I quoted, which Yango then concurred with and which wasn't really discussed further . If you didn't agree with that list, no problem. But if you want input, you're better off stating what you disagree with and why, so we can find something you're happy with. I realise that zeus etc were in the changelog, so "silent" wasn't the correct term, but none of those changes had been asked for up until that point, and then they suddenly ended up in the official version with no explanation or comment. That's pretty confusing and makes me wonder why we spent so much time discussing things in the first place. If it is easier, we can remove al'together the "New Guides" section from the current breakdown of coming changes to this transition to avoid discussion on activation we won't be doing for awhile (or at least after the big hump of changes needed for current published guides. I think you should keep the section. Support Mirana and QW voker are non-negotiable, at minimum. The rest could be removed until you're ready to discuss and implement them. It depends how we want to build Furion. Because the current one is maxed out completely. So we can do a completely different build and strategy instead of trying to fit in 3 builds we currently have on one guide (and have to somehow fit in two different starting item tabs). Let me know what you think given this situation. I said this before: the current version is maxed out because it's trying to do two different builds at once. Furion is an extremely complex hero to build, but what he chooses to buy has very little to do with whether he comes from jungle or offlane, so splitting the guide won't help you. It sounds like you would prefer to eg. split the orchid build off into the jungle, and do the drums mael build from lane. That would free up space, but unfortunately it's based on a false dichotomy. There isn't much reason why Furion would build orchid more often from jungle or maelstrom from lane, or vice versa. I would prefer a single Furion build with a single core and a large situational, rather than a confusing dual core that takes up space. Two guides would be fine, and perhaps it's worth it to tell the 2ks that he can be played in lane, but it just seems a bit wasteful to me. Again, if you disagree or would like more input, you should continue asking for it, but you could at least acknowledge the discussion that's already taken place so new people have something to go on and people who commented last time don't feel they need to repeat themselves. | ||
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Starting items: jungle -> tango basi Starting items: lane -> tango salve RoP gg clarity (or even -> tango RoP gg gg clarity clarity or something would probably be okay for both) Earlygame: basi boots stick Core: phase drums mael (or midas phase orchid if you prefer that build) Situational: midas shadowblade blink orchid BKB Extension: deso aghs MKB mjoll daed sheep And skill like EWEQEREWWWRQQQER (or maybe EWQEER) and that would be fine to cover both. | ||
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