EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 10
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
So it will be max Spirit Lance by 7. One Doppel, One Stats before 6. | ||
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Cragus
Canada144 Posts
On PL, what you get at level 1 depends a bit on your lane. Doppel at 1, lance at 2 is the safe option for scary lanes while the inverse is more aggressive and is nice for harassing some offlaners, particularly if you have a KotL (you can't really harass with lance otherwise due to PL's poor mana pool). Also, I think tango salve rop 3x branch is a stronger starting item build unless you have a really easy lane (in which case the stout is unnecessary anyway), but this varies a lot on how fast you can get tranqs up. Chen should have Necro added to his situational items. He's mostly a early-midgame support with strong pushing/ganking power, and the Necrobook helps that a lot. Depending on your playstyle it's almost core (If I remember correctly, Puppey used to get it almost every game he played Chen when NaVi did the push stuff) Euls should be added to situational on Invoker. Besides being the poor-mans hex, there's a few nice combos it can set up, and it helps his mana pool pretty significantly (core for trololol QW racecar builds). Blink is another good additional situational item if one wants to do Dendi-style hyper-mobile invoker with both force and blink (great for positioning 4/5 man tornados from unexpected directions). Orchid is a maybe add to situational on invoker as it's quite cheap and gives a nice teamfight control/ganking active, but it's more of a semi-carry QE/WE/E item due to the bonus attack speed being largely irrelevant with wex. Meepo should have vlads, blink, treads, travels, and lothars added as situational items. I'm not a fan of the vlads on meepo, but it does help with roshing and sustain. Blink and lothars are for setting up poof ganks. Treads and travels are your two main late-game boot choices with treads providing more fighting power and travels providing more split pushing power. If you're Niuwa you get both and drop the treads when you want to travel, but that's really annoying to do and I wouldn't recommend recommending it. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Updated Invoker Updated Meepo Thanks! | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On PL, what you get at level 1 depends a bit on your lane. Doppel at 1, lance at 2 is the safe option for scary lanes while the inverse is more aggressive and is nice for harassing some offlaners, particularly if you have a KotL (you can't really harass with lance otherwise due to PL's poor mana pool). Also, I think tango salve rop 3x branch is a stronger starting item build unless you have a really easy lane (in which case the stout is unnecessary anyway), but this varies a lot on how fast you can get tranqs up. No, Stout is a vastly better start than RoP ESPECIALLY in difficult lanes. RoP starts are greedy because Stout's level 1 survivability far exceeds that of RoP. RoP's 2 armor is worth ~10% damage reduction at level 1 armor values (0-6 armor). Stout Shield blocks 20 damage 60% of the time, or ~12 damage per attack. This means that Stout Shield is effectively 20-25% damage reduction against hero damage (which is usually about 50-ish at level 1), and worth ~50% damage reduction against creeps (creep hits are almost entirely negated when Stout procs). This is so much better than RoP at levels 1-3 that it far outweighs the fact that RoP puts you slightly closer to Tranquils. It's only after enemy damage gets higher that 2 armor outperforms the damage block. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Rayeth
United States883 Posts
I think Diffusal blade is a great pickup on Slark vs Eye of Skadi. Besides Diffusal being much less expensive it gives your Essense Shift even more power, and allows you to be more helpful to the team by slowing or purging heroes you might not otherwise be able to catch in a pounce. I think it definitely deserves a spot on the luxury list, not core, but certainly something to think about if you are getting well farmed off ganks. Skadi is certainly better in the case where you are rolling in gold, but I think Diffusal is a decent alternative and costs quite a bit less. I prefer building the stout shield into a Poor Man's Shield in the early game, but vanguard is also fine. I also wonder, why the Ring of Health in early game? Unless you are planning on building into a Vanguard (a perfectly legit choice), it serves no purpose. If so Vanguard should be listed on either the early game items, or maybe an extension. Either way I think one of the shields does benefit Slark early on. I personally usually go for Poor Man's, but others might feel differently. I'd choose either one and put it in there. Great work so far Torte de Lini! Keep it up. | ||
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a slow decay
150 Posts
You want Flak Cannon early, it lets you harass people out of lane and is like really fucking op. Great for pushing, great for flash farming, great for harassing, lets you dominate your mid lane if you're mid (forces opponents to either miss CS or take flak shots) and if you're side-laning you still get a great farming and pushing skill from it. Considering Rocket goes up in mana cost as well you actually just want 1 level of Rocket. If you don't have Flak you are gimping your mid-game potential, especially in fights where it lets you sit way back and still do shittons of damage to everyone. Barrage/Homing/Flak/Barrage/Barrage/Ult/Barrage/Flak/Flak/Flak/Ult/whatever If you are mid you will get Flak at level 2 instead of Homing and you'll either skip Homing entirely (until level 8*) or get it at level 4. edit: fixed* | ||
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a slow decay
150 Posts
edit: Sry double post!! oh and i agree with above poster, poor man's shield is pretty standard on slark. I don't know why you have a level of stats on level 4 for PL maybe someone can explain to me? +2 all stats doesn't seem as good to me as a level in juxta or -30 mana to doppel (it's INCREDIBLY mana costly at level 1 with 150 mana cost). +2 all stats barely gives you more mana than a level in doppel subtracts. it sorta makes sense since it costs exact amount soul ring gives you but I still don't like it should be doppel/lance/lance/doppel/lance/doppel/lance/doppel/ult/juxta/ult Ring of Aquila is core on PL imo, he greatly benefits from the mana regen and it has cheap build-up. RoA/Tranqs/Soul Ring -> Diffusal allows you to address your regen issues and never really need to leave lane unless you're tping to safer farm. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2013 09:26 a slow decay wrote: I don't know why you have a level of stats on level 4 for PL maybe someone can explain to me? +2 all stats doesn't seem as good to me as a level in juxta or -30 mana to doppel (it's INCREDIBLY mana costly at level 1 with 150 mana cost). +2 all stats barely gives you more mana than a level in doppel subtracts. it sorta makes sense since it costs exact amount soul ring gives you but I still don't like it Because you're only going to use Doppel early game as a 100% out. Doppel farming is only useful with Ult/Juxtapose, and only after your illusion strength gets to the point where you can actually use them to farm effectively (Drums+QB and Juxtapose ranks). Other than that, it's an escape for situations where you need it as a 100% out. In lane you're pretty much not going to get more use out of it than the Stats. | ||
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a slow decay
150 Posts
From personal experience Flak is the stronger build as well, I don't see the reason for homing over Flak ever really. Even during solo ganks it has it's uses (clearing creeps for better barrages, if they get TP help it allows you to continue to fight if the situation allows, pushing factors, etc.) | ||
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Cragus
Canada144 Posts
On February 26 2013 03:53 TheYango wrote: No, Stout is a vastly better start than RoP ESPECIALLY in difficult lanes. RoP starts are greedy because Stout's level 1 survivability far exceeds that of RoP. RoP's 2 armor is worth ~10% damage reduction at level 1 armor values (0-6 armor). Stout Shield blocks 20 damage 60% of the time, or ~12 damage per attack. This means that Stout Shield is effectively 20-25% damage reduction against hero damage (which is usually about 50-ish at level 1), and worth ~50% damage reduction against creeps (creep hits are almost entirely negated when Stout procs). This is so much better than RoP at levels 1-3 that it far outweighs the fact that RoP puts you slightly closer to Tranquils. It's only after enemy damage gets higher that 2 armor outperforms the damage block. My objection was to going into lane with absolutely no regen consumables at all, which is what the guide currently suggests (obviously regen could be pooled, but that shouldn't be assumed, especially at the level these guides are targeted at). I don't disagree that stout is better than RoP for early survivability, but RoP and Stout with no consumables isn't a great survivability build either. With stout+rop you're effectively counting on lane opponents that have no useful nukes and/or a really good lane support. Compared to that, I think rop with consumables and the ability to make tranqs from the side shop alone is a better starting build than the current suggestion. Stout+regen is more survivable that that of course, whether that's worth giving up the convenience of building tranqs from the side shop depends on how hard the lane is. EDIT: As an aside to the above stats discussion, stats gives you 26 more mana and a tiny bit more mana regeneration, so the mana cost reduction from the doppel levels isn't that much better while you're using it for a one-shot escape and not a farming tool. EDIT2: Most of the hard support heroes (such as lion and jakiro) should have pipe and drum added to their situational. They're not always the best items for a support to get (I usually prefer to get them on an appropriate 3 or 2), but they're both great items that benefit the whole team. Ghost scepters and gems should probably also be in all supports' situational, but that might cause unnecessary clutter (I assume if players know how to use a ghost scepter/gem, they will identify the times to get one regardless). It might be worth adding gem to naga and pl as a situational item since their illusions are cheap to make and will carry the true sight, which a lot of people aren't aware of. For slark, I'm not so sure about the RoH. Once you hit 6, it'll become irrelevant and 875 gold is a lot for an item that you are only going to use for the first few minutes of the game. If I needed more regen in lane on slark, I'd rather get tranqs then disassemble for treads (only 525 gold of items that aren't very useful) than go RoH. Orb of Venom is a decent additional situational item on slark even if you don't go all the way to the full Skadi. The same RoH thing for slark can be said for alchemist as chemical rage will give him crazy regen as soon as he hits 6, rendering the RoH wasted gold. EDIT 3: For LD, the only difference between lane and jungle builds is that you get stout on bear and regen on druid in lane, while you get quelling and stout both on bear for jungle. You could probably toss a quick note about that in the guide and have a unified jungle/lane guide, assuming that wouldn't confuse people. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
This PL/Gyro talk is a bit difficult to pin down. | ||
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Cragus
Canada144 Posts
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a slow decay
150 Posts
Barrage/Homing/Flak/Barrage/Barrage/Ult/Barrage/Flak/Flak/Flak/Ult/whatever Every pro does this nowadays (with some slight differences in skill allocation), some even leveling stats over homing after 1 level in homing. I can link you like 10+ games in the last few weeks if you need. Remove aghanims and add divine rapier to his situational. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
updated slark. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
starting items the same as you have. Early game: aquila + bracer instead of ring of regen. You really need some mana regen when you max dark pact first, you can take advantage of the low cooldown to push lanes and flash farm jungle. If you really want to farm the jungle a lot, soul ring is also good because the health loss is offset by your ult, but you shouldn't be farming jungle so much, the aquila is enough. Then go drums. After that it depends really. Bkb, armlet and diffusal are all good in their respective situations, most of the time, you really need the bkb I think. Skill build: I don't like taking essense shift at level 2. It's awesome when solo laning agains another melee, but in other lanes, it's useless. You don't really get to harass with rightclick at all when there's an enemy ranged hero, and the stolen stats are not relevant early game when everyone dies to nukes mostly. I'd rather have one more rank in pounce before level 6 in most cases. | ||
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Cragus
Canada144 Posts
On February 27 2013 02:00 Torte de Lini wrote: I thought we established that this gyro build was also acceptable. updated slark. It's fine, slow decay is right about pros only leaving missile at 1, but putting more points into it isn't a bad build by any means. If you just add a comment to missile that leaving it at one and maxing flak after barrage is an option for better teamfights/farming then I think you'll be fine. Personally, I would change it to a level 1 missile and add a comment about how maxing missile is an option for stronger single-target ganking since level 1 missile is the dominant build professionally at the moment, but it doesn't really matter. To be honest, almost any skill build on gyro is viable as long as you aren't going pure stats or skipping call down. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 27 2013 02:16 Cragus wrote: It's fine, slow decay is right about pros only leaving missile at 1, but putting more points into it isn't a bad build by any means. If you just add a comment to missile that leaving it at one and maxing flak after barrage is an option for better teamfights/farming then I think you'll be fine. Personally, I would change it to a level 1 missile and add a comment about how maxing missile is an option for stronger single-target ganking since level 1 missile is the dominant build professionally at the moment, but it doesn't really matter. To be honest, almost any skill build on gyro is viable as long as you aren't going pure stats or skipping call down. Pure stats isn't even bad on him. 1/1/1->~3-4 points stats->max Flak has been seen before. | ||
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