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On July 08 2022 06:43 SC-Shield wrote: If I were you, I'd carefully follow reviews of RTX 4000 cards when they're out. For some reason I have a bad feeling about their power draw. Since it's new architecture, it's better to be cautious. RTX 3000 was messed up in my opinion because you pay 1000+ euros for a card only to end up with coil whine which is completely unacceptable for that amount of money. Even if Cyro doesn't have coil whine with his, quality assurance nowadays with ever more power hungry GPUs give me a headache.
I was much more pleasantly surprised with old MSI GTX 980 Twin Frozr card back in the days... Even if ASUS ROG Strix 3080 now does a lot more for me, ray tracing and all the cool stuff.
I'm getting 'burned out' by PC market's vibes. It's definitely not going in the right direction. i9-12900K - 240 W RTX 4080 - 400 W allegedly (or more?) RTX 4090 - 450 W (at least but more is expected) + GPU transients
Power efficiency feels like it went out of the window. I do like that AMD is sane, but I hope they don't join this madness as well for "top performance at any cost".
While i understand your concerns i dont agree with the actions. Everything is about money. If AMD can sell GPU/CPUs that draw heaps without people caring, just getting bigger PSUs, they will do it. Until the market is saturated and people start caring for electric bills. In that moment they will focus on power draw and seek more efficiency rather than max performance.
You have way too much fate in companies caring about YOU. They care about THEMSELVES.
What will make the biggest bucks in the shortest time is the path.
On July 08 2022 06:43 SC-Shield wrote: If I were you, I'd carefully follow reviews of RTX 4000 cards when they're out. For some reason I have a bad feeling about their power draw. Since it's new architecture, it's better to be cautious. RTX 3000 was messed up in my opinion because you pay 1000+ euros for a card only to end up with coil whine which is completely unacceptable for that amount of money. Even if Cyro doesn't have coil whine with his, quality assurance nowadays with ever more power hungry GPUs give me a headache.
I was much more pleasantly surprised with old MSI GTX 980 Twin Frozr card back in the days... Even if ASUS ROG Strix 3080 now does a lot more for me, ray tracing and all the cool stuff.
I'm getting 'burned out' by PC market's vibes. It's definitely not going in the right direction. i9-12900K - 240 W RTX 4080 - 400 W allegedly (or more?) RTX 4090 - 450 W (at least but more is expected) + GPU transients
Power efficiency feels like it went out of the window. I do like that AMD is sane, but I hope they don't join this madness as well for "top performance at any cost".
While i understand your concerns i dont agree with the actions. Everything is about money. If AMD can sell GPU/CPUs that draw heaps without people caring, just getting bigger PSUs, they will do it. Until the market is saturated and people start caring for electric bills. In that moment they will focus on power draw and seek more efficiency rather than max performance.
You have way too much fate in companies caring about YOU. They care about THEMSELVES.
What will make the biggest bucks in the shortest time is the path.
Yeah, i think this is at the core. People want the most computing power, potentially the most computing power/money. They don't really think about the power draw, or the costs of that.
On July 08 2022 06:43 SC-Shield wrote: If I were you, I'd carefully follow reviews of RTX 4000 cards when they're out. For some reason I have a bad feeling about their power draw. Since it's new architecture, it's better to be cautious. RTX 3000 was messed up in my opinion because you pay 1000+ euros for a card only to end up with coil whine which is completely unacceptable for that amount of money. Even if Cyro doesn't have coil whine with his, quality assurance nowadays with ever more power hungry GPUs give me a headache.
I was much more pleasantly surprised with old MSI GTX 980 Twin Frozr card back in the days... Even if ASUS ROG Strix 3080 now does a lot more for me, ray tracing and all the cool stuff.
I'm getting 'burned out' by PC market's vibes. It's definitely not going in the right direction. i9-12900K - 240 W RTX 4080 - 400 W allegedly (or more?) RTX 4090 - 450 W (at least but more is expected) + GPU transients
Power efficiency feels like it went out of the window. I do like that AMD is sane, but I hope they don't join this madness as well for "top performance at any cost".
While i understand your concerns i dont agree with the actions. Everything is about money. If AMD can sell GPU/CPUs that draw heaps without people caring, just getting bigger PSUs, they will do it. Until the market is saturated and people start caring for electric bills. In that moment they will focus on power draw and seek more efficiency rather than max performance.
You have way too much fate in companies caring about YOU. They care about THEMSELVES.
What will make the biggest bucks in the shortest time is the path.
Yeah, i think this is at the core. People want the most computing power, potentially the most computing power/money. They don't really think about the power draw, or the costs of that.
0.11 euro (roughly) is how much a kWh costs in my country with VAT and taxes. It's not much, but that's beside the point. As a Computer Science postgraduate, my vision is that this field values efficiency so it seems like a backwards move. I've heard stories that computers used to be as big as a room, cooling demand was huge, etc. Look at modern computers, we should strive for efficiency or this is my thought at least.
Either way, food for thought. I'm aware private companies (nothing wrong with that in general) which are on stock market are for profit. That's fine, all I'm saying is I'm going to vote with my wallet if companies don't make any reasonable attempt to be efficient. E.g. if what I hear about RTX 4090 Ti turns out to be true, this is what I fear most about PC hardware's direction. And yes, it's a rumour and I take with a pinch of salt.
Even though I'm not any airflow expert, there is only so much you can afford to cool in an average PC case unless trend is to go for bigger PC cases in the future. Again, efficiency comes to mind...
I currently have an ITX box, and I don't plan on going any larger than that. Power efficiency is what matters to me, if I can get a 4080 and get 90% the performance at 60% the power, I'll do that. The biggest problem is is that reviews matter. Consumers want the absolute most Mhz/Ghz, and it's been proven at this point that they'll pay for it.
Power efficiency is a distant consideration, and probably well off the podium for what sells cards.
On July 08 2022 06:43 SC-Shield wrote: If I were you, I'd carefully follow reviews of RTX 4000 cards when they're out. For some reason I have a bad feeling about their power draw. Since it's new architecture, it's better to be cautious. RTX 3000 was messed up in my opinion because you pay 1000+ euros for a card only to end up with coil whine which is completely unacceptable for that amount of money. Even if Cyro doesn't have coil whine with his, quality assurance nowadays with ever more power hungry GPUs give me a headache.
I was much more pleasantly surprised with old MSI GTX 980 Twin Frozr card back in the days... Even if ASUS ROG Strix 3080 now does a lot more for me, ray tracing and all the cool stuff.
I'm getting 'burned out' by PC market's vibes. It's definitely not going in the right direction. i9-12900K - 240 W RTX 4080 - 400 W allegedly (or more?) RTX 4090 - 450 W (at least but more is expected) + GPU transients
Power efficiency feels like it went out of the window. I do like that AMD is sane, but I hope they don't join this madness as well for "top performance at any cost".
While i understand your concerns i dont agree with the actions. Everything is about money. If AMD can sell GPU/CPUs that draw heaps without people caring, just getting bigger PSUs, they will do it. Until the market is saturated and people start caring for electric bills. In that moment they will focus on power draw and seek more efficiency rather than max performance.
You have way too much fate in companies caring about YOU. They care about THEMSELVES.
What will make the biggest bucks in the shortest time is the path.
Yeah, i think this is at the core. People want the most computing power, potentially the most computing power/money. They don't really think about the power draw, or the costs of that.
And then there is 5800x3d pulling 40-60w in games on max performance overclock depending on how many cores they can load :D
I'm gaming with that & a 3080 at 200-250w because of power costs at the moment, actually the lowest power and coolest/quietest setup i've had for many years because the cooler can comfortably handle double that and so it runs lower power with the fans way down and temperatures really low.
We are at 0.3 eu per kwh and there's serious talk of 0.5 with powergrid disruptions through the autumn and through winter.
Power efficiency is a distant consideration, and probably well off the podium for what sells cards.
Running my 1080ti for the first 2 years cost £300 in power and £0 in depreciation.
Running my 3080 for the first 2 years cost £500 in power and £0 in depreciation.
This isn't entirely new and it's probably going to get even more focused on power, so triple check your numbers and buy based on it. The frontal investment is such a small % of the actual cost of ownership because resale value stays so high for so long (paying £500 on day 1 hardly matters when you get £400 back on day 1000) and power consumption & costs have both risen sharply.
Ofc if there is a huge spike in GPU supply and performance per £ then you have lost out some on your investment, but in that case you can also be pretty happy because you have access to cheap and powerful upgrades. With this kind of hedge i'm happy enough whichever way the market goes.
Okay big question, place I work is trying to open some 3D art courses, they need computer suggestions since we as a department have talked them out of the Madness that is iMacs.
They paid like ~1500 for these truly heinous Macs, I’m hoping to keep PCs to like 1200 each but a 1000 - 1500 range is probably good.
Any suggestions for mass buying some computers that work solidly for simpleish 3D modeling with blender and Zbrush and are within 1000 - 1500usd?
On July 12 2022 06:01 Zambrah wrote: Okay big question, place I work is trying to open some 3D art courses, they need computer suggestions since we as a department have talked them out of the Madness that is iMacs.
They paid like ~1500 for these truly heinous Macs, I’m hoping to keep PCs to like 1200 each but a 1000 - 1500 range is probably good.
Any suggestions for mass buying some computers that work solidly for simpleish 3D modeling with blender and Zbrush and are within 1000 - 1500usd?
On July 12 2022 06:01 Zambrah wrote: Okay big question, place I work is trying to open some 3D art courses, they need computer suggestions since we as a department have talked them out of the Madness that is iMacs.
They paid like ~1500 for these truly heinous Macs, I’m hoping to keep PCs to like 1200 each but a 1000 - 1500 range is probably good.
Any suggestions for mass buying some computers that work solidly for simpleish 3D modeling with blender and Zbrush and are within 1000 - 1500usd?
One huge CPU and run VM. Seeing as each user needs one fast core and possibly a few more threads if multithreaded.
This would mean one chassis, same storage, one cpu cooler, one PSU, one GPU, one mobo You can see where im going with this. Much simpler/cheaper/greener/efficient.
Depending on how many users you select CPU accordingly. This also means PCs wont stand there unused doing nothing except costing money for each system.
It still means each user need mouse/keyboard/monitor but thats something you cant do anything about.
Sample:
And yeah its overkill build as always from linus. Its just to show it works.
So, I intend to finally build a new PC this summer. I have a lot of free time in August and intend to use it. My current PC is pretty old at this point. (i3 2700, 16Gb DDR2, Radeon R390)
I got a new monitor after my old one broke, and now i need a new system to actually use that 1440p well. I am also interested in getting some VR gear in the long run.
Use case is mostly 1440p gaming, usually not the newest of games. Also whatever else random tasks i may need a PC for. I hope for this PC to last me at least 5 years, ideally longer.
I am a bit uncertain regarding DDR4 vs DDR5. The current thinking appears to be that DDR5 is not worth it for gaming, but i basically have to commit now, as i also need a fitting mainboard.
Edit: It even lists in this link: "Seasonic PRIME based units experience shutdowns with RTX3080/3090 (and possibly RX6900 XT) GPUs, especially ones with unlocked power limit like FE and ASUS Strix. It is recommended, if going with such units, to overprovision wattage, 1kW for RTX3080 and 1.2kW for RTX3090"
This isnt exclusive to seasonic prime but depending on what you do with your GPU.
That part is, because those seasonic prime units have particularly weak capacitance
Every report of shutdowns isnt exclusive to seasonic.
That's not what i said nor what the guy that i'm quoting said.
"Seasonic PRIME based units experience shutdowns with RTX3080/3090 (and possibly RX6900 XT) GPUs, especially ones with unlocked power limit like FE and ASUS Strix. It is recommended, if going with such units, to overprovision wattage, 1kW for RTX3080 and 1.2kW for RTX3090"
Those overprovison factors are specifically talking about the Seasonic PRIME units which are infamously incapable of approaching their rated power with modern workloads. There's more than that wrong with them, another quote from your source:
Seasonic PRIME based units experience shutdowns with RTX3080/3090 (and possibly RX6900 XT) GPUs. The cause is not the OCP tripping but a PSU design flaw as evident by the PSU not latching off on shutdown and 1000W+ models being affected too. Doesn’t manifest in 100% cases as it’s also dependent on motherboard model and GPU OC. A DIY fix is possible, of disconnecting a specific pin on the PSU-side of connector 24-pin motherboard cable. Sub 850W Prime GX/PX models are not affected since they’re based on Focus platform. There’s no public information from Seasonic on the issue and whether it was fixed but it was confirmed by JonnyGURU to be present at least in late 2020 revision units and there are user reports with units past this date.
I have one of Jonny's units w/ a 850w rating (specifically chosen for this) and it has no hint of any issue with 450w graphics card board power plus everything else in the system.
"Seasonic PRIME based units experience shutdowns with RTX3080/3090 (and possibly RX6900 XT) GPUs, especially ones with unlocked power limit like FE and ASUS Strix. It is recommended, if going with such units, to overprovision wattage, 1kW for RTX3080 and 1.2kW for RTX3090"
Those overprovison factors are specifically talking about the Seasonic PRIME units which are infamous for having too little capacitance to get close to their rated power with modern workloads. You need a 1.2kw Prime to have the same amount of capacitance as some other 850w units on the list.
I have one of Johnny's units w/ a 850w rating (specifically chosen for this) and it has no hint of any issue with 450w graphics card board power plus everything else in the system.
Thanks, i am getting a bit confused here. So the problem is with one specific line of PSUs, and i don't generally need a massively oversized PSU for a new-ish graphics card?
Thanks, i am getting a bit confused here. So the problem is with one specific line of PSUs, and i don't generally need a massively oversized PSU for a new-ish graphics card?
Also, any other comments on that build?
You do but not to that extent. The 3080 that you chose has three 6+2 pin power connectors so you should buy a PSU which is at least ~850w which has those connectors without daisying two connectors on the same cable. That's likely also neccesary next gen with something like a 3x8pin to 12 pin adapter.
Never buy lottery RAM - RAM that uses one of 10 different options of memory chip, PCB etc depending on whatever is cheapest that day. You always get crap and you can't match it later, nor would you want to. You can get something like crucial ballistix at least and then you get one of two known good options and the price is not even different.
Airflow needs to be highest priority for case
Also going back a bit, DDR5 is much faster than DDR4 but it's more reliant on overclocking know-how and more expensive hardware. If you had more budget you would get a 5800x3d anyway because you prob don't want to do that stuff
3200 16-18-18 is the generic slow speed bin that is chosen because they don't have to use any specific type of RAM or any other decent components to hit it, it just works with the cheapest so they can mix and match based on whatever is laying around or lowest on the market.
Crucial also has that freq/timing set on some of their RAM but they only use a few of their own (micron) IC's on a modern PCB, so they have known good compatibility and scaling
The other ways to avoid lottery is to buy specific frequency/timing/voltage bins which only one type of memory will hit, or kits with consistent and known components
I will be honest and say that i still don't really understand how to choose RAM. I know that i apparently need DDR4-3200 with this setup because that is what the processor and the mainboard support. I think i want 32Gb just to be safe for a while. I think i want 32 Gb in two bars so i can potentially later expand it if necessary.
I barely understand what the numbers (like 16-18-18) mean, except that lower seems to be better. I have no clue regarding manufacturers or brands.
You seem to be recommending Crucial Ballistix.
From what i read so far, DDR5 is currently more expensive for basically no gain while gaming. I could spend a bit more if it is worth it, but i don't want to do that just to futureproof. So far, whenever i bought something with a futureproofing option, i never used that option later on.
On July 17 2022 18:03 Simberto wrote: So, I intend to finally build a new PC this summer. I have a lot of free time in August and intend to use it. My current PC is pretty old at this point. (i3 2700, 16Gb DDR2, Radeon R390)
I got a new monitor after my old one broke, and now i need a new system to actually use that 1440p well. I am also interested in getting some VR gear in the long run.
Use case is mostly 1440p gaming, usually not the newest of games. Also whatever else random tasks i may need a PC for. I hope for this PC to last me at least 5 years, ideally longer.
I am a bit uncertain regarding DDR4 vs DDR5. The current thinking appears to be that DDR5 is not worth it for gaming, but i basically have to commit now, as i also need a fitting mainboard.
Basically you need to populate the front with fans and have an exhaust fan at the back. Top fans are optional or leaving the space open without dust mesh. CPU cooler (example Esports 34 DUO) will be directed exhaust to the rear so it will help with air movement.
EPT
