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On June 16 2021 20:26 Cyro wrote: It's a bigger issue with LGA, both because the motherboard is a lot more problematic to replace (requiring reinstall of all components and sometimes even OS) and because the pins on those boards aren't straight but are actually angled somewhat.
It's good practice to warm up paste, unscrew cooler and then wiggle it back and forth gently before taking it off with any CPU, but a lot of the risk depends on the thermal paste that you use. Some pastes will bond far more tightly than others, the AMD stock cooler paste is infamous for glueing itself to the IHS while i've never had an issue with arctic mx4.
I've used Noctua's thermal paste (default with NH-D15) as well as Thermal Grizly Kryonaut Extreme but I'm not sure when it happened. Maybe as far back as Noctua's one. I'm currently using Noctua NT-H2 thermal paste and I don't plan to touch CPU anytime soon. By the way, you say LGA is problematic but even though I changed my Intel i7-5820k's thermal paste in the last few weeks due to just it being old, it is still operating fine and I didn't do any preparation regarding CPU cooler. I'd like to believe that the issue there is much rarer.
Those CPU's are much larger and probably held down better than the consumer lineup
On June 16 2021 20:26 Cyro wrote: It's a bigger issue with LGA, both because the motherboard is a lot more problematic to replace (requiring reinstall of all components and sometimes even OS) and because the pins on those boards aren't straight but are actually angled somewhat.
It's good practice to warm up paste, unscrew cooler and then wiggle it back and forth gently before taking it off with any CPU, but a lot of the risk depends on the thermal paste that you use. Some pastes will bond far more tightly than others, the AMD stock cooler paste is infamous for glueing itself to the IHS while i've never had an issue with arctic mx4.
I've used Noctua's thermal paste (default with NH-D15) as well as Thermal Grizly Kryonaut Extreme but I'm not sure when it happened. Maybe as far back as Noctua's one. I'm currently using Noctua NT-H2 thermal paste and I don't plan to touch CPU anytime soon. By the way, you say LGA is problematic but even though I changed my Intel i7-5820k's thermal paste in the last few weeks due to just it being old, it is still operating fine and I didn't do any preparation regarding CPU cooler. I'd like to believe that the issue there is much rarer.
Those CPU's are much larger and probably held down better than the consumer lineup
Yeah, you're right. So I guess I should pay equal attention to CPU cooler regardless if I'm dealing with LGA or PGA.
To others, unless you're pro or know just the right amount of thermal paste, never ever use Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut as it is conductive. If this liquid metal touches other component other than CPU there is a risk. It's never happened to me (I used Kryonaut Extreme previously) but short-circuit could happen so I think it's more risk than necessary for the average user.
Liquid metals also destroy the writing on the IHS which voids warranty from both vendors
For Kyro, i've heard that it's one of the best pastes but can be difficult to apply and it only performs strongly if replaced very regularly (like every 3-6 months)
ASUS ROG Strix 3090 White appeared today in not one but a few local shops, the cheapest option is 2665 euros.. Tempting but I've not saved enough and it might be severely outdated when AMD's next generation is out according to leaks. I'll hold on to 3080 for now. It seems like RTX 3080 is the best value/performance card so far for 4k gaming...
if you are not running out of Vram, which you should not currently, there is no need to go for anything stronger. as stronger means 5-10% for ... just too much money. if you don't care sure go for it.
3080Ti is a big letdown with only 12 GB imho. only good thing is that its existence basically means newer cards are around 6-9(+) months away depending on chip supplies Nvidia was able to secure for '22.
I just hope NV and AMD cards won't be as power hungry next time around. then I'll gladly move on from Turing.
A: Using 2 ranks of memory, that means populating the back side of the card and having to cool the most power-dense memory in the history of graphics cards from that position somehow. FE cards failed at this, running unsafe temps and throttling in some workloads at stock.
B: Using 16gbit gddr6x memory chips which don't exist right now
I just hope NV and AMD cards won't be as power hungry next time around. then I'll gladly move on from Turing.
I like running them at lower power, that way you're much more efficient than turing and still faster; the power scaling from 225w to 450w is disgustingly bad. Added bonus of having overspecced cooler - my 3080 cooler can handle 50%+ more power than the 1080ti cooler with the same delta-t and noise.
On June 19 2021 15:54 Doublemint wrote: if you are not running out of Vram, which you should not currently, there is no need to go for anything stronger. as stronger means 5-10% for ... just too much money. if you don't care sure go for it.
3080Ti is a big letdown with only 12 GB imho. only good thing is that its existence basically means newer cards are around 6-9(+) months away depending on chip supplies Nvidia was able to secure for '22.
I just hope NV and AMD cards won't be as power hungry next time around. then I'll gladly move on from Turing.
And difference is up to 10-15 fps in 4k. 3080 Ti is very close to 3090, sometimes even identical in games, but there is no white variant and 3080 Ti is often almost as expensive as 3090, so it's out of question. :D
A: Using 2 ranks of memory, that means populating the back side of the card and having to cool the most power-dense memory in the history of graphics cards from that position somehow. FE cards failed at this, running unsafe temps and throttling in some workloads at stock.
B: Using 16gbit gddr6x memory chips which don't exist right now
I just hope NV and AMD cards won't be as power hungry next time around. then I'll gladly move on from Turing.
I like running them at lower power, that way you're much more efficient than turing and still faster; the power scaling from 225w to 450w is disgustingly bad. Added bonus of having overspecced cooler - my 3080 cooler can handle 50%+ more power than the 1080ti cooler with the same delta-t and noise.
If there are technical limitations, NVIDIA shouldn't have increased price by $200 at the last minute. That one cannot be excused imho. It would have made 3080 Ti much more desirable.
Edit: Just noticed that i9-11900K beats my Ryzen 9 5900x in some games, while it loses in others. Still, Ryzen is only $10 more expensive and it has 4 cores more which for long-term use is much better in my opinion. I bought this 6-core CPU i7-5820k back in early 2015 and 6 years later Intel's one of the best is +2 cores. What is this? :D
The kind of reviews that you see on review sites are of extremely limited usefulness for reflecting the max. performance of the hardware because games are so memory-limited (especially on the Intel side) and almost nobody has half a clue how to set up RAM properly. It's not rare to see people in overclocking discord servers / forums get 30% more performance than hardware reviewers.
They're close enough that 10900k/11900k/zen3 cpu's all win in different games and scenarios but the intel cpu's are much more (~3x+) reliant on having a complicated memory overclock with specific RAM and motherboards to get to that performance level.
On June 20 2021 17:49 Cyro wrote: The kind of reviews that you see on review sites are of extremely limited usefulness for reflecting the max. performance of the hardware because games are so memory-limited (especially on the Intel side) and almost nobody has half a clue how to set up RAM properly. It's not rare to see people in overclocking discord servers / forums get 30% more performance than hardware reviewers.
They're close enough that 10900k/11900k/zen3 cpu's all win in different games and scenarios but the intel cpu's are much more (~3x+) reliant on having a complicated memory overclock with specific RAM and motherboards to get to that performance level.
Do you think this review is legitimate?
If so, this is the one I was talking about. I'm happy to take fps loss which isn't more than 15 fps on above video to have +4 more cores as it is more valuable long-term in my opinion. It was the same reason I took i7-5820k 6 years ago, so 6 cores instead of popular 4 cores back then. And there was never a game I wished I went with 4 cores instead so drop was negligible in my case.
And yeah, I appreciate Zen3 is easier as you say. Predictability is a good thing when it comes to computers.
Edit: Wow, Ryzen 5900x is a lot more energy efficient, like 50+w less usage though this high Intel OC might be the root cause. If it's reduced, then I guess comparison will be a lot tighter.
On June 20 2021 17:49 Cyro wrote: The kind of reviews that you see on review sites are of extremely limited usefulness for reflecting the max. performance of the hardware because games are so memory-limited (especially on the Intel side) and almost nobody has half a clue how to set up RAM properly. It's not rare to see people in overclocking discord servers / forums get 30% more performance than hardware reviewers.
They're close enough that 10900k/11900k/zen3 cpu's all win in different games and scenarios but the intel cpu's are much more (~3x+) reliant on having a complicated memory overclock with specific RAM and motherboards to get to that performance level.
If so, this is the one I was talking about. I'm happy to take fps loss which isn't more than 15 fps on above video to have +4 more cores as it is more valuable long-term in my opinion. It was the same reason I took i7-5820k 6 years ago, so 6 cores instead of popular 4 cores back then. And there was never a game I wished I went with 4 cores instead so drop was negligible in my case.
And yeah, I appreciate Zen3 is easier as you say. Predictability is a good thing when it comes to computers.
Edit: Wow, Ryzen 5900x is a lot more energy efficient, like 50+w less usage though this high Intel OC might be the root cause. If it's reduced, then I guess comparison will be a lot tighter.
What is your budget? I have ~$2000 Australian from work for a PC build minus graphics card. I'll personally buy and add in a graphics card once prices calm down. This is much more than I would normally spend on a PC (my last PC was $1000 all up about 5 years ago) so I'm hoping to make a build that will last as long as possible.
What is your monitor's native resolution? 1440p 144hz Freesync.
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings? AAA games for as long as I can make this PC last. I want to maximise gaming capability on this build. Obviously the graphics card is the most important choice for this. As I'll be buying that personally later I'll probably end up with a lopsided build that is GPU bound (assume RTX 3060Ti / RTX 3070 / RX 6800). If the rest of the build would stand up to a GPU upgrade in 4 years or so that would be nice.
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming? Structural engineer work programs (CAD, 3D models, finite element programs etc).
Do you intend to overclock? I'll probably stick with PBO for the CPU cores - maybe play a bit with a FCLK overclock. Memory timings is also something I'm interested in. This is something I haven't done before and where I'm most unsure of the build I've picked. Advice here would be great.
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire? No
Do you need an operating system? No - have Windows 10.
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget? No.
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify. Aiming for performance and reliability - no particular brand preferences or aesthetic requirements.
What country will you be buying your parts in? Australia. I'm using PC Case Gear (www.pccasegear.com) at the moment. Happy to buy components from other places if better options exist - would have to offset extra postage costs to be worth it.
On June 21 2021 14:31 Chrisboy wrote: What is your budget? I have ~$2000 Australian from work for a PC build minus graphics card. I'll personally buy and add in a graphics card once prices calm down. This is much more than I would normally spend on a PC (my last PC was $1000 all up about 5 years ago) so I'm hoping to make a build that will last as long as possible.
What is your monitor's native resolution? 1440p 144hz Freesync.
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings? AAA games for as long as I can make this PC last. I want to maximise gaming capability on this build. Obviously the graphics card is the most important choice for this. As I'll be buying that personally later I'll probably end up with a lopsided build that is GPU bound (assume RTX 3060Ti / RTX 3070 / RX 6800). If the rest of the build would stand up to a GPU upgrade in 4 years or so that would be nice.
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming? Structural engineer work programs (CAD, 3D models, finite element programs etc).
Do you intend to overclock? I'll probably stick with PBO for the CPU cores - maybe play a bit with a FCLK overclock. Memory timings is also something I'm interested in. This is something I haven't done before and where I'm most unsure of the build I've picked. Advice here would be great.
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire? No
Do you need an operating system? No - have Windows 10.
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget? No.
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify. Aiming for performance and reliability - no particular brand preferences or aesthetic requirements.
What country will you be buying your parts in? Australia. I'm using PC Case Gear (www.pccasegear.com) at the moment. Happy to buy components from other places if better options exist - would have to offset extra postage costs to be worth it.
That looks pretty good, the main thing that sticks out to me is the memory. It's probably Hynix CJR which is not terrible but not very good either, it's 4x8GB but 2x16 runs more easily. That shop doesn't have good options though - anything better is generally a few hundred $ more expensive, unlike UK/USA markets. Got any other Aus shops?
On June 21 2021 14:31 Chrisboy wrote: What is your budget? I have ~$2000 Australian from work for a PC build minus graphics card. I'll personally buy and add in a graphics card once prices calm down. This is much more than I would normally spend on a PC (my last PC was $1000 all up about 5 years ago) so I'm hoping to make a build that will last as long as possible.
What is your monitor's native resolution? 1440p 144hz Freesync.
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings? AAA games for as long as I can make this PC last. I want to maximise gaming capability on this build. Obviously the graphics card is the most important choice for this. As I'll be buying that personally later I'll probably end up with a lopsided build that is GPU bound (assume RTX 3060Ti / RTX 3070 / RX 6800). If the rest of the build would stand up to a GPU upgrade in 4 years or so that would be nice.
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming? Structural engineer work programs (CAD, 3D models, finite element programs etc).
Do you intend to overclock? I'll probably stick with PBO for the CPU cores - maybe play a bit with a FCLK overclock. Memory timings is also something I'm interested in. This is something I haven't done before and where I'm most unsure of the build I've picked. Advice here would be great.
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire? No
Do you need an operating system? No - have Windows 10.
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget? No.
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify. Aiming for performance and reliability - no particular brand preferences or aesthetic requirements.
What country will you be buying your parts in? Australia. I'm using PC Case Gear (www.pccasegear.com) at the moment. Happy to buy components from other places if better options exist - would have to offset extra postage costs to be worth it.
That looks pretty good, the main thing that sticks out to me is the memory. It's probably Hynix CJR which is not terrible but not very good either, it's 4x8GB but 2x16 runs more easily. That shop doesn't have good options though - anything better is generally a few hundred $ more expensive, unlike UK/USA markets. Got any other Aus shops?
As for the 4x8GB - I was working off the assumption that 4 ranks are better than 2. That's about my current limit of RAM knowledge and determining which 16GB kits come with dual rank modules is beyond me at the moment. Would be more than happy for a "just buy this one" suggestion. Thanks
On June 21 2021 14:31 Chrisboy wrote: What is your budget? I have ~$2000 Australian from work for a PC build minus graphics card. I'll personally buy and add in a graphics card once prices calm down. This is much more than I would normally spend on a PC (my last PC was $1000 all up about 5 years ago) so I'm hoping to make a build that will last as long as possible.
What is your monitor's native resolution? 1440p 144hz Freesync.
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings? AAA games for as long as I can make this PC last. I want to maximise gaming capability on this build. Obviously the graphics card is the most important choice for this. As I'll be buying that personally later I'll probably end up with a lopsided build that is GPU bound (assume RTX 3060Ti / RTX 3070 / RX 6800). If the rest of the build would stand up to a GPU upgrade in 4 years or so that would be nice.
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming? Structural engineer work programs (CAD, 3D models, finite element programs etc).
Do you intend to overclock? I'll probably stick with PBO for the CPU cores - maybe play a bit with a FCLK overclock. Memory timings is also something I'm interested in. This is something I haven't done before and where I'm most unsure of the build I've picked. Advice here would be great.
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire? No
Do you need an operating system? No - have Windows 10.
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget? No.
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify. Aiming for performance and reliability - no particular brand preferences or aesthetic requirements.
What country will you be buying your parts in? Australia. I'm using PC Case Gear (www.pccasegear.com) at the moment. Happy to buy components from other places if better options exist - would have to offset extra postage costs to be worth it.
That looks pretty good, the main thing that sticks out to me is the memory. It's probably Hynix CJR which is not terrible but not very good either, it's 4x8GB but 2x16 runs more easily. That shop doesn't have good options though - anything better is generally a few hundred $ more expensive, unlike UK/USA markets. Got any other Aus shops?
As for the 4x8GB - I was working off the assumption that 4 ranks are better than 2. That's about my current limit of RAM knowledge and determining which 16GB kits come with dual rank modules is beyond me at the moment. Would be more than happy for a "just buy this one" suggestion. Thanks
Yeah that is a good point, it's difficult to guarantee dual rank on 16GB sticks at the low price points but 4x8 can guarantee it rather than playing the lottery between getting dual rank 8gbit or single rank 16gbit.
The main way that we guarantee it sometimes is by looking at the performance - one of the advertised timings cannot be achieved by any 16gbit memory chip, so the only way for 16GB capacity with that timing is to have two ranks of one of the fastest 8gbit chips. That method is not usable when looking at slightly weaker memory where the performance can be achieved with both 8gbit and 16gbit IC's.
They are only sold in one flavor (single-ranked 8gbit micron rev.e) so it's a good type of memory with no lottery and with 4x8 you have the two ranks per channel. Should be a bit both faster and cheaper than what you had.
Manually setting a lot of the timings should have more performance impact than single vs dual rank, but if you can do both then it's ideal. The performance benefits for tuning memory on zen 3 CPU's is generally much smaller than older generations because they cache things so well but it's still notable in a range of workloads (like getting +200-300mhz on the core for many games, for example) and huge for a few niche workloads.
^ I've been told by a local PC shop (authorised G.Skill retailer) that Samsung RAM is the best when it comes to overclocking.
Other than that, my current PC iteration will most likely remain like this, just waiting for ROG Strix 3080 White and it's completed. Someone congratulated me on Noctua last time but I did some benchmarks and Lian Li Galahad 360 is better (also backed up by Gamers Nexus). Probably the only white choice along with Corsair if you go for a white build. Arctic has added an RGB variant but they stay with black components so not much variety. I changed the CPU cooler after a slight hand injury while trying to use 2nd chassis connector and Noctua's radiator was taking so much space... I mounted it on my old PC which I might sell when I get my new graphics card.
I've just made an "insurance". My pre-order has been going for 1 month and I've just placed a new one after seeing that ASUS's Amazon shop sells that GPU (also pre-order?), so I'll treat this on a first come first serve basis using an intermediary German address to manage this. If you're German, then this is much easier.
Probably not surprising but manufacturers often sell above retail prices (local PC shops).
Edit: I've ended up using a non-German address and Amazon says 28 June - 1 July to deliver which is much sooner than on screenshot, so we'll see.
Edit2: Order is dispatched, so it didn't get cancelled luckily (due to shortages). On the other hand, here is some good news:
Prepare for GPU Ethereum crash, it'll probably be like 2nd hand GPU raining from sky but probably damaged cards as well :D
Edit 3: ASUS eShop has messaged me about a delayed webcam as part of bundle. I was like, this is a bundle?? It turns out it's ASUS RTX 3080 ROG Strix White + ASUS Webcam C3 + ASUS Strix Riser Cable (PCI-E 3 though) + some keychain merchandise. So it's not just a graphics card for 1600 euros which makes it a better buy than I thought it was. I expect to receive it next month but not sure when.
A few years ago I upgraded my i3 4170 to i7 4790k. I didn't have an overclock capable motherboard but I believe even without overclock 4790k was noticably faster than the 4790, they were also nearly the same price in used market.
I'm thinking of upgrading again, now to i5 11400F or 11600KF but at my budget I can't get an overclock capable mobo + high end cooler, I have a raijintek aidos air cooler which is doing well keeping the 4790k cool.
i5 11400F: 1800 ₺ i5 11600KF: 2500 ₺
+ an MSI B560M PRO-E board (1050 ₺).
Does it worth getting 11600KF even if I can't overclock it?
This PC is being used for twitch streaming (nvenc), although not with demanding games since I am not able to upgrade my gtx 1060 at this point.
Or go with AMD like everyone? I got an 11400 for my brother since he won't be streaming so raw single core power would be better, but for this pc will an AMD be better even though they are 2 years old cpus?
Or, get a cheap capture card and use the old spare pc with i3 4170 as a dedicated streaming pc? (2 pc setup, i7 for game and i3 for stream), until new AMD or 10nm intel cpus come out?
On June 26 2021 08:41 mantequilla wrote: A few years ago I upgraded my i3 4170 to i7 4790k. I didn't have an overclock capable motherboard but I believe even without overclock 4790k was noticably faster than the 4790, they were also nearly the same price in used market.
I'm thinking of upgrading again, now to i5 11400F or 11600KF but at my budget I can't get an overclock capable mobo + high end cooler, I have a raijintek aidos air cooler which is doing well keeping the 4790k cool.
i5 11400F: 1800 ₺ i5 11600KF: 2500 ₺
+ an MSI B560M PRO-E board (1050 ₺).
Does it worth getting 11600KF even if I can't overclock it?
This PC is being used for twitch streaming (nvenc), although not with demanding games since I am not able to upgrade my gtx 1060 at this point.
Or go with AMD like everyone? I got an 11400 for my brother since he won't be streaming so raw single core power would be better, but for this pc will an AMD be better even though they are 2 years old cpus?
Or, get a cheap capture card and use the old spare pc with i3 4170 as a dedicated streaming pc? (2 pc setup, i7 for game and i3 for stream), until new AMD or 10nm intel cpus come out?
It's kinda the same this gen, with the 11400/11600 being 65w TDP while the 11600k is 125w.
Because the intel specification is so wide, some motherboards actually get 50% more CPU performance than other motherboards while they both meet the intel spec. You have to be extremely careful about which one you are buying.
will an AMD be better even though they are 2 years old cpus?
I got an 11400 for my brother since [] raw single core power would be better
Somebody missed the ryzen 5000 launch ;D
Most would be looking at a 5600x here, it may be a bit above your budget though.
Cyro since you also seem to have RTX 3080 (mine will be received soon), do you use a 4k monitor or did you go for 1440p? Also, assuming you recommend 4k, which one do you recommend for 4k gaming and decent refresh rate (is 120 Hz standard there?)? Just asking for games in general. And what about SC2? Is 4k there a big no-no? I know it's more CPU intensive but is this something Ryzen 5900x can handle or is fps really low?
Edit: And if the answer for sc2 is no, are you able to mix & match games using a 4k monitor? So running a game in 1080p or 1440p when it's bad for 4k or are you stuck with 4k once you have such a monitor due to something not visualising right?
EPT
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