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2heartless
United States66 Posts
I was wodering if i played on a 240hz LED tv screen would i be able to see/notice above 60fps? I heard somewhere that 60fps is max computer monitors can output. My computer setup is i3-2100, gtx 560ti, 8gb ram and 700 watt psu. My tv is 1080p and about 46 inches across i believe. Thanks! | ||
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Enotic
Canada59 Posts
User was forum banned for this post. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On June 24 2011 12:07 Enotic wrote: Sorry man but the human eye isnt going to allow you to see past 60fps. I think you might be a little confused so my simple answer will be "Dont worry about getting 60+ fps" Post a source. | ||
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2heartless
United States66 Posts
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Aggnog
Bulgaria77 Posts
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apm66
Canada943 Posts
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JayDee_
548 Posts
Are you sure your TV produces true 240hz? Most (if not all) TVs on the market, which claim to produce 120 or 240 hz refresh rate, are actually using a concept called interpolation which inserts an "average frame" between two frames. This is not true 120 or 240hz. Your TV likely only produces 60hz of true frames. There are 120z+ flat-screen monitors on the market, but they are quite expensive. A standard CRT will produce high refresh rates at a cheap price. Although they are huge and LANS generally stick with flat-screens. I'm not sure what the relation is between refresh rate limitation and noticeable fps. I thought I'd just let you know that your TV probably isn't capable of what you think it is capable of. Try it out and report back.  | ||
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manawah
123 Posts
Your eye's will not notice the difference between 60fps and anything higher but you will notice less motion blur and more crisp picture during lots of motion on the screen. Another issue you might want to consider if you use it for games is the response time. Large LCD TV's generally use IPS panels which give true color and improved viewing angle but poor 5-15ms response time which sucks for games. PC LCD's generally use TN panels which provide poor color compared to other panels, less viewing angle but offer amazing response times of 1-5ms which is great for games. Also might want to consider how the large screen displays text if you want to read webpages, might be hard to read. | ||
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Boblhead
United States2577 Posts
 . If you have a 60hz tv I suggest you watch a blueray or just a HQ 1080p movie and then watch the same movie on the 240hz and you will be able to tell a difference.Yes I have a 52' 240hz visio tv. Yes I can tell the difference between 240 and 60. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On June 24 2011 12:07 Enotic wrote: Sorry man but the human eye isnt going to allow you to see past 60fps. I think you might be a little confused so my simple answer will be "Dont worry about getting 60+ fps" User was forum banned for this post. The difference is in the colors... and the refresh rates... it'll feel like it'd have less delay with higher fps... there's still noticeable differences otherwise they wouldn't necessarily make them... pretty much like the above posters said... | ||
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2heartless
United States66 Posts
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889252136&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-LED TV-_-Sony-_-89252136 Edit: my bad.. apprently it is 120hz... blame my dad haha | ||
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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
On June 24 2011 12:07 Enotic wrote: Sorry man but the human eye isnt going to allow you to see past 60fps. I think you might be a little confused so my simple answer will be "Dont worry about getting 60+ fps" User was forum banned for this post. i have troubles streaming because it shits me when my fps drops below 120. (it's usually 200+) and it shits me because i can clearly see the difference. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
On June 24 2011 12:51 JayDee_ wrote: Thousands of quake players can be wrong. An appeal to popularity is not proof that there is an actual difference. I come from a Quake background where we consider +120hz and +120 fps to be optimal. Don't believe the hype. The human eye can definitely notice the difference between 60 and 120 hz or fps. Thousands of Quake players can attest. On June 24 2011 12:51 JayDee_ wrote:Are you sure your TV produces true 240hz? Most (if not all) TVs on the market, which claim to produce 120 or 240 hz refresh rate, are actually using a concept called interpolation which inserts an "average frame" between two frames. This is not true 120 or 240hz. Your TV likely only produces 60hz of true frames. There are 120z+ flat-screen monitors on the market, but they are quite expensive. A standard CRT will produce high refresh rates at a cheap price. Although they are huge and LANS generally stick with flat-screens. I'm not sure what the relation is between refresh rate limitation and noticeable fps. I thought I'd just let you know that your TV probably isn't capable of what you think it is capable of. Try it out and report back. The problem is no one has posted a legitimate source for either side of the argument. If anyone has two monitors they could perhaps conduct a blind study to see if there is a noticeable difference. I've read through my Psych textbook (psych in modules 9th edition by David Myers) and the topic of vision and subliminal information was brought up but it didn't mention how fast the refresh rate of the monitor a human is able to notice. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
Regardless, the picture may be smoother on the TV because of interpolation and maybe other display processing and smoothing that it is doing. However, all this extra interpolation (which requires buffering the next frame at least) and processing takes time, so what you see on the TV will probably lag behind what you would have seen on your computer monitor. This is even disregarding the slower pixel response time when changing colors, because TVs use non-TN panels, as described earlier. edit: granted, Bnet latency is going to be the larger factor probably, but adding even more latency is not exactly desirable. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On June 24 2011 14:50 Myrmidon wrote: As mentioned earlier, does your TV accept higher than 60 Hz input? I'm pretty sure it's not getting 240 Hz 1920x1080 over HDMI. Regardless, the picture may be smoother on the TV because of interpolation and maybe other display processing and smoothing that it is doing. However, all this extra interpolation (which requires buffering the next frame at least) and processing takes time, so what you see on the TV will probably lag behind what you would have seen on your computer monitor. This is even disregarding the slower pixel response time when changing colors, because TVs use non-TN panels, as described earlier. Yup just wanted to make sure this is highlighted in most cases TV's that feature 120 240hz unless they are 3D approved they likely wont accept a signal with more then 60fps why say it's 240hz well it produces the same frame 4 times sometimes blending frames in some manner it depends on the manufacture they each have their own thing. So is that useless? Well yes and no it's not new frames but it does produce a slighly crisper picture worth extra price not really imo. Also if you do get such a tv you need the right hdmi cable when shopping for cable buy cheap it's a digial signal as long as it work it works just like any other cable same quality, you wanna get a High Speed HDMI or if you can find it on the box 1.4 1.4a but most only will say high speed. Also in general i want to add in case ppl didn't get the msg, all tv's are bad for games in terms of lag, they are tv's they focus on picture quality they tend to do things with the signal alot more things before showing the imange, you can turn off most of it on some tv's others you cannot. | ||
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2heartless
United States66 Posts
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JayDee_
548 Posts
On June 24 2011 14:39 G_Wen wrote: Thousands of quake players can be wrong. An appeal to popularity is not proof that there is an actual difference. The problem is no one has posted a legitimate source for either side of the argument. If anyone has two monitors they could perhaps conduct a blind study to see if there is a noticeable difference. I've read through my Psych textbook (psych in modules 9th edition by David Myers) and the topic of vision and subliminal information was brought up but it didn't mention how fast the refresh rate of the monitor a human is able to notice. So you're saying hundreds of thousands of FPS players who agree they can tell the difference between 60 and 120 hz are just experiencing a placebo effect? The experiment you proposed has been done by FPS gamers. There is a resounding conclusion that yes, there is a noticeable differences between 60 and 120hz, the latter of which is easier to play with. I'm guessing you have never actually played a FPS at any high degree of intensity. I suggest you try out both frame rates in an online match and then see what you can conclude. FPS players need to see things quickly. That extra 60hz of information is noticeable and improves ones aim significantly. We don't need a Psychology book to tell us what we already can experience. | ||
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AioncannonzSC2
United States92 Posts
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snigor
Norway129 Posts
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
I just upgraded to a 120Hz and the difference is easy to see. I'm not sure how this applies to gaming, but for watching TV its a pretty big difference. On June 25 2011 03:57 AioncannonzSC2 wrote: it's tough to notice the actual smoothness of the image above 60hz, because the brain actually is pretty good at tricking you into seeing a constant image even as low as 30 fps, but it has a real effect on your reaction time. Also since many games are very fast-paced, you essentially have more frames to react than your opponent. Maybe not as drastic as the difference between 60 and 120 APM, but it changes play performance in a similar way. So if you're looking for an obvious visual difference between 60 and 120, there isn't one unless you use 3D glasses. But there is an indisputable passive effect on your gaming performance. I don't think you've seen a 120Hz panel | ||
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bunnybarrel
2 Posts
As far as the refresh rate of your monitor goes, it is not as important as people are making it out to be. The majority of today's 120hz LCD panels are an artificial inflation of frame rates in an attempt to solve the problem of stuttering in slow panning video. It will replicate an individual frame and display the same image around 4 times per frame. Concentrate on consistency. Get your frame rate steady, get a monitor with a low response time, and don't worry too much about refresh rates. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On June 24 2011 14:39 G_Wen wrote: Thousands of quake players can be wrong. An appeal to popularity is not proof that there is an actual difference. The problem is no one has posted a legitimate source for either side of the argument. If anyone has two monitors they could perhaps conduct a blind study to see if there is a noticeable difference. I've read through my Psych textbook (psych in modules 9th edition by David Myers) and the topic of vision and subliminal information was brought up but it didn't mention how fast the refresh rate of the monitor a human is able to notice. What you'd be saying is similar to " you can't hear any differences between an 128 kb/s MP3 and LPCM " except that is wrong... and there is a difference just as there's a noticeable difference between 240hz vs 60hz | ||
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Yorke
England881 Posts
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Zumms
United States30 Posts
On June 24 2011 14:39 G_Wen wrote: Wrong, if you can tell there is a difference, there is a difference. I'm sorry but, it's not hard to figure it out and no major studies need to be done. You CAN tell the difference between 60 and 120, but past 120 its kind of hard to tell much of a difference for me.Thousands of quake players can be wrong. An appeal to popularity is not proof that there is an actual difference. The problem is no one has posted a legitimate source for either side of the argument. If anyone has two monitors they could perhaps conduct a blind study to see if there is a noticeable difference. I've read through my Psych textbook (psych in modules 9th edition by David Myers) and the topic of vision and subliminal information was brought up but it didn't mention how fast the refresh rate of the monitor a human is able to notice. | ||
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bwally
United States670 Posts
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stanik
Canada213 Posts
If I sit down at a CRT with a 60Hz refresh rate the first thing I do is Windows Key+D, Right click properties and fix that shiz. My laptop is set at a rate of 60Hz and cannot be adjusted, so I cannot tell you if it would flicker less at a higher refresh rate. | ||
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Souljah
United States423 Posts
On June 24 2011 14:39 G_Wen wrote: Thousands of quake players can be wrong. An appeal to popularity is not proof that there is an actual difference. The problem is no one has posted a legitimate source for either side of the argument. If anyone has two monitors they could perhaps conduct a blind study to see if there is a noticeable difference. I've read through my Psych textbook (psych in modules 9th edition by David Myers) and the topic of vision and subliminal information was brought up but it didn't mention how fast the refresh rate of the monitor a human is able to notice. All i can say to this is "LOL" I have a 60 and a 120 hz monitors side by side right now, and I'll tell you theres a huge difference between the two, even in starcraft. As for the 240hz TV, Jaydee is right. The only LCD screens that are able to perform at true 120hz+ are the 3D Monitors like the Asus VG236.The only other way is going CRT. | ||
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AioncannonzSC2
United States92 Posts
On June 25 2011 12:32 stanik wrote: I am able to detect when a CRT monitor is on a refresh rate of 60Hz. It flickers/Hurts my eyes. When it is set at or above 75Hz I cannot really tell the difference. If I sit down at a CRT with a 60Hz refresh rate the first thing I do is Windows Key+D, Right click properties and fix that shiz. My laptop is set at a rate of 60Hz and cannot be adjusted, so I cannot tell you if it would flicker less at a higher refresh rate. LCDs dont flicker at low refresh rates because they don't actually draw the image with a beam | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
Basically the human eye sees motion differently than a camera or a set fps would. What happens in film is at around 24 frames per second the blur that is natural with motion makes the film appear to be smooth. In video games this doesn't happen as each frame is drawn with no blur so even at 60fps things don't appear to be smooth because the human eye is able to pick up no movements really just different placing of items. What happens as you approach 120fps or hrz on a monitor is that the refresh rate is so fast the human eye picks it up as motion and not things simply jumping positions thus creating a smooth effect, that's why quake players want 120+fps and 120hrz screens. Tv's are a bit different, most of the time tv's only accept input of 60hrz and the when they produce a 120hrz or 240hrz picture it simply helps the tv get rid of the blur between frames that is not the same as real motion blur. Blu-Ray discs for example only output at 60hrz but the motion looks smooth because of the blurring effects in the movie, the 240hrz tv is only helping keep the picture looking as natural as possible. This helps with games too and is why people swear 120hrz or 240hrz is required to play certain games as the screen will be almost impossible to see under fast motion in some games because of the way the tv is refreshing at 60hrz compared to 240hrz where everything is crisp and clear because there is no ghosting. Don't forget that most monitors have less input lag which helps reduce ghosting as well. The amount of ghosting on an 8 or 12ms 120hrz tv compared to a 2ms 60hrz monitor is actually pretty similar. Basically it boils down to this. 120hrz Monitor taking a 120fps signal is ideal. 120hrz+ tv taking a 60fps signal is good. 60hrz monitor taking a 60fps signal is still pretty good in all honesty. | ||
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MontereyJack
Germany12 Posts
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