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+ Show Spoiler +
Celerity, the 250 is at the same price of the 260, and from what I understand they are misleadingly different, and the 250 is way inferior, as in more comparable to a completely different series and generation.
Again, it really comes down to the 4850 and 460. I'm soooo tempted to go with the 460, as benchmarking and generaly tests show it is almost twice as good, literally. About a 95% increase in performance. However, this is based on GPU focused FPS games, as I haven't found any benchmarking comparing the 4850 vs 460 on Starcraft2. Also, anecdotal reports and analysis of the 4850 shows it is enough to play even ultimate settings at all but the highest resolutions, making the 460 an unnecessary upgrade.
I just realized that there is Free shipping on the 460 though, and the 4850 has an $8 shipping charge. That brings the disparity between the two at 104 - 86 = $18. Jesus christ its so tempting to splurge on that, but rational thought and being cool headed tells me there is no reason to do that. That and the fact I have zero money for food until scheduled to work in a week or so except $1 on my credit card if I go with the 460 (build is $424 out of the $425 I have on the card when going 460).
Anyways I know most everyone will say go 460 but 1) this is only for SC2, 2) i can upgrade in 2 months when I get more money if its just so bad and 3)budget wise 4850 I think is better when thinking solely of SC2. heres the links and details for reference, I may go for the 460 if the brand/reliability issues are prevalent (XFX4850 being horrible vs galaxy460 being amazing)
XFX HD-485X-ZNFC Radeon HD 4850 1GB 256-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150482
Core Clock 625 mhz
Stream processors 800
Effective Memory clock 1990 mhz
Memory Size 1gb
256-bit
DDR3
RAMDAC 400 mhz
$86 (shipping and rebate included)
Galaxy 60XMH6HS3HMW GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) GC 768MB 192-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814162058
Core Clock 700 mhz
Shader clock 1400 mhz
Stream processors 336
Effective Memory clock 3696 mhz
Memory size 768 mb
192-bit
GDDR5
$104
Again I have no idea what any of the specs mean, from what I understand ATI and nvidia made it so damn confusing for marketing reasons, you really just need to research every single god damn gpu independently. unlike ram where size/speed/latency or cpu its speed/core/cache.
I just want people to check up on what celerity said about me geting just a single stick of 2gb memory as opposed to 2x1gb memory.
Kingston 1GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500)
Cas 7
Timing 7-7-7
1.5v
x2
vs
Kingston HyperX Blu 2GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 Desktop Memory
Cas 9
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On January 29 2011 18:26 Belial88 wrote:
Most recent concerns/configurations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[spoiler]Again I have no idea what any of the specs mean, from what I understand ATI and nvidia made it so damn confusing for marketing reasons, you really just need to research every single god damn gpu independently. unlike ram where size/speed/latency or cpu its speed/core/cache.
I just want people to check up on what celerity said about me geting just a single stick of 2gb memory as opposed to 2x1gb memory.
Dual channel is just a way to optimize the flow of data when two sticks of RAM are used. The difference is really insubstantial, considering $6 is 1/3 of the way to a whole new stick of RAM, and if you get 2x 2GB sticks you'll have dual channel right there.
If you're set on the 4850, I would just shell out for the 460 instead. It may not be reputable, but a 4850 will quickly be stone age technology whereas a 460 will last for quite awhile assuming it holds up. For $18 it's a big difference.
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Most recent concerns/configurations, just need review and I hope the 460 goes with the 430D Earthwatts and Biostar AE770E MOBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yea, fucking hell dude. $8 shipping actually drives me crazy. Its $18 to literally get a GPU twice as good. I mean compare that price, to doing a Crossfire of the 4850. Ugh, fuck it, I have $425 on my credit card and the 460 makes it 424.
Okay, here's the build, I don't see why I can't order this tonight:
Kingston HyperX Blu 2GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 Desktop Memory
Cas 9
$19
Galaxy 60XMH6HS3HMW GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) GC 768MB 192-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814162058
Core Clock 700 mhz
Shader clock 1400 mhz
Stream processors 336
Effective Memory clock 3696 mhz
Memory size 768 mb
192-bit
GDDR5
$104
Antec EarthWatts Green EA-430D Green 430W Continuous power ATX12V v2.3 / EPS 12V 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371034
$44
AMD Athlon II X3 450 Rana 3.2GHz Socket AM3 95W Triple-Core Desktop Processor ADX450WFGMBOX
+
BIOSTAR A770E3 AM3 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard
Combo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.581121
$124
Western Digital Caviar Blue 160GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136590
$23 Cheapest WD
*NZXT GAMMA Classic Series GAMA-001BK Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
Cheap, recommended on guide. Im inclined to use a cardboard box as my case though.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146061
$39
Build is $424 before rebates, after shipping and taxes.
There is a $50 rebate for the GPU, so its really a $350 build computer.
Thanks guys, and if you can leave any *particularly* helpful links (things obviously I may not pick out or find too easily when searching) out of the obvious to help me set it up, that may be useful. That way I dont have to post a thread in 4 days crying about OMG ITS DOA T___T
Thanks to everyone so much for their help. Myrmidon, AyameStarcraft, Cel.erity, skyR, Aduromos. Very helpful! And I'll be sure to post results, and benchmarking (I'll try to figure out how to do that). and FPS stuff.
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On January 29 2011 15:14 Aduromors wrote:
newegg reviews mean literally nothing, and even if you were to take them seriously, there are only 5 bad reviews and most of the bad reviews are DOA cards, none of them are cards that failed "shortly after purchase" so I have to assume you never read the reviews at all!
and the rest of your arguments are all anecdotal. There's nothing wrong with the galaxy cooler except possibly the noise level and the idea that it could "cook your HDD" is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read in this forum
Based on this and your previous post about FPS, I don't believe you are qualified to be posting here.
a.) If you don't consider DoA to be shortly after purchase, then I want to know exactly what you consider short.
b.) Galaxy is known to be, along with Sparkle, among the lowest tier of manufacturers for aftermarket coolers. Some of us have worked with these cards in the past and know what we're talking about. The fan blades snap and melt because they are cheaply made, the heatsink is basically just a block of aluminum, and the airflow is atrocious (it pushes the hot air back into the case).
c.) HDD is the most vulnerable component in a hot case with poor airflow. The reason HDDs fail more often than ever nowadays is because they are constantly subjected to 45-50 degree heat. This is pretty common knowledge; again, something you should know before posting in a tech support forum. The GPU is generally the strongest source of heat, unless it's got a good cooler like a MSI or ASUS model.
However, if you think it's good advice to tell a novice computer builder to buy offbrand parts, cram a powerful GPU and CPU into a tiny mid case with OEM cooling and see what happens, by all means do that.
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^ You just told me to get that 460 insetad of the 4850. I'm only buying that Galaxy 460 because its $60 cheaper than any other 460. If that Galaxy is just so horrible, I'll get the XFX 4850 instead. And from what I've read Galaxy is a top tier brand, not bottom, and is very big in Europe?
And if you can help me with getting a better case, please help me. Your posts are very helpful, they are just kind of against the flow so far so excuse me for being dubious, a bit of it flies against what I've read too. the NXZT gamma was rated pretty high in reviews, check it out on google or something (theres no too many itll pop up quick). And nothing I'm buying is really offbrand except maybe the Biostar Motherboard.
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You're v mad and your arguments are full of so much nonsense that it's not even worth trying to reply
But I will say many GPUs, including 460s, have cooling systems that don't vent air outside of the case. The galaxy cooler has it's downsides, mainly that the fan is louder than most - because cheap fans aren't cheap because they have "cheap fan blades that melt", they're cheap because they have cheap bearings
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Galaxy is a sister company of Palit.
Palit and its sister companies owns more than 50% of Nvidia's marketshare in Asia and Europe. They're definitely a reputable brand but don't expect amazing RMA support in North America...
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^ I really don't care if the fan is loud, ill just turn up the sound, and when wearing headphones (which I don't realy plan on doing) it isn't noticeable. I mean damn Id rather save a few bucks or get a way better perfromance than *gasp* there's a minor whirring sound in a box under a desk that I can simply move farther away from me when set up.
As for heating issues, I have that good PSU (right?) and a good case (right?) And I'm not overclocking. I can always overclock in a few weeks and simply rip a fan off a case i in the junkyard (my case has room for half a dozen fans) or buy a good one for $20 later in 2 weeks.
My priority is thus: Price - Value - Starcraft 2 performance, and that's really it. I don't care about aesthetics, I don't care about performance of Crysis, I don't care about general task performance (especially considering a cheapo SC2 pc can handle anything general and SC2/gaming is the most demanding thing for a pc), and I don't care about inconveniences like louder fans. Price, performance, I don't care if its as looud as a harley and as ugly as hell! I don't have the money nor would I care even if I did.
Cel.erity your advice about the ram was awesome. Aduromors, your general help and advice this whole thread has helped me immensely. Please don't fight! I assume doa on means dead on arrival, not dead on 2 weeks, although that is a bigger worry if an issue.
Cel.erity I'm not really sure with what to do with the information about hdd's overheating and the 460 being hot. Even $40 on a better aftermarket fan makes it cheaper than other 460s, the only reason I'm even considering a 460 is because that particular model comes with a $50 rebate, making it $104 wheras every other 460 is $150 at least, essentially twice the cost of a 4850. Like I said, if the NXZT Gamma is so bad I will be more than willing to switch to a case you can pick out for $40 or under since I have no idea how to pick a case and chose that one from Falcons Logical Increments PC Buying Guide.
On another note, the monitor a friend gave me for free that I will be using is a Sanyo 18.5 inch
DP19640 720p HD LCD TV 1366 x 768 native resolution:
http://us.sanyo.com:80/LCD-Televisions/18-5-Diagonal-LCD-HDTV-720p
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Do I need like a soun card or anything, or will dual speaker setup w/receiver work fine with like whatever sound comes with my setup/mobo? Will it run surround sound? Thanks.
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On January 30 2011 09:32 Belial88 wrote:Most recent concerns/configurations, just need review and I hope the 460 goes with the 430D Earthwatts and Biostar AE770E MOBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yea, fucking hell dude. $8 shipping actually drives me crazy. Its $18 to literally get a GPU twice as good. I mean compare that price, to doing a Crossfire of the 4850. Ugh, fuck it, I have $425 on my credit card and the 460 makes it 424. Okay, here's the build, I don't see why I can't order this tonight, and the specs: Athlon II X3 3.2Ghz 2GB Ram Galaxy GTX460 1GB 160GB HDD 7200 RPM SATA 8mb cache 430W PSU (Antec Earthwatts) Midtower ATX Biostar AE7770E cheapo ATX mobo Kingston HyperX Blu 2GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 Desktop Memory Cas 9 $19 Galaxy 60XMH6HS3HMW GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) GC 768MB 192-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814162058Core Clock 700 mhz Shader clock 1400 mhz Stream processors 336 Effective Memory clock 3696 mhz Memory size 768 mb 192-bit GDDR5 $104 Antec EarthWatts Green EA-430D Green 430W Continuous power ATX12V v2.3 / EPS 12V 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371034$44 AMD Athlon II X3 450 Rana 3.2GHz Socket AM3 95W Triple-Core Desktop Processor ADX450WFGMBOX + BIOSTAR A770E3 AM3 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard Combo http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.581121$124 Western Digital Caviar Blue 160GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136590$23 Cheapest WD *NZXT GAMMA Classic Series GAMA-001BK Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case Cheap, recommended on guide. Im inclined to use a cardboard box as my case though. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146061$39 Build is $424 before rebates, after shipping and taxes. There is a $50 rebate for the GPU, so its really a $350 build computer. Thanks guys, and if you can leave any *particularly* helpful links (things obviously I may not pick out or find too easily when searching) out of the obvious to help me set it up, that may be useful. That way I dont have to post a thread in 4 days crying about OMG ITS DOA T___T Thanks to everyone so much for their help. Myrmidon, AyameStarcraft, Cel.erity, skyR, Aduromos. Very helpful! And I'll be sure to post results, and benchmarking (I'll try to figure out how to do that). and FPS stuff.
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Okay I think I figured out the rail issue.
So the Antec Earthwatts 80+ Bronze 430D has multiple 12 volt rails, I think 2 but there's a
"-12V" rail whatever that means. There's a 12v1@17 and 12v2@16.
So 12x17 + 12x16 = 396. Boom, 396 on the 12v rails, way over the ~250 max needed, so basically gives headroom to operate under 70% load and for my motherboard, RAM, HDD, single case fan, mouse and keyboard, and my phone charger.
Also it looks like my processor + GPU is, on their own, about 246 max load under testing applications like furmark and prime95.
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That PSU might not have two power connectors needed for that video card, but the 460 would probably come with power adapters. It should be fine, but you could always get the EarthWatts 500W for $5 more, which is guaranteed to work and would give you a bit more headroom if you ever wanted to overclock
build looks good overall
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Isn't the 430W "guaranteed to work" anyways? And if I were to clock my expensive computer, I'm certainly not going to set the voltage any higher. With the 430 the operating load, at max, with testing results is 246 / 396 (12x16+12x17 for 2 12v rails) = 62% operating load. From what I've read, the most conservative estimates say 70% (usually 'they' say 80%), which means I have plenty of wiggle room.
Even if I wanted to overclock, I would keep the same voltage as I'm not going to risk cutting the lifespan of my expensive computer. Not saying I wouldnt overclock, I very well will one day, but I wont push it past stock voltage and aftermarket and OEM fans are cheap (case has room for like 7, I might as well go to the dump and get 6 free bad quality fans) and I can use those to keep the temperature lower... but I'm not going to overclock by supplying insufficient voltage and simply maxing out of cooling to combat the resultant heat anyways. Given the overhead though, I can easily overclock, and still maintain over 80% headroom to make things 'efficient'.
Now obviously there are the mobo, HDD, keyboard & mouse, maybe a phone charger, and RAM to consider but they aren't significant, and I believe those all run on different rails.
Point is, is that I do have wiggle room when the GPU + CPU is only 62% of the power on the wattage of the 12v rails.
edit: actually extreme power calc says 258/308 min/recommended so I'm way overpowered on this. I could even do the 380 and be very safe. But with this that means I could overclock higher voltages or even SLI. but thats beyond this thread and would just lead to degeneration of this thread into speculation...
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There's only 360 watts on the 12v rails, but yeah all the same it will probably be fine.
Overclocking with increased voltages will reduce a chips lifespan, but from what I've heard CPUs tend to fail around 15 years of continued use and with well-cooled overclocking that's cut down to around 12. Overclocked chips might fail in the long term quicker, but the extra performance will help keep chip relevant for the next 3-5 years
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Few questions:
1. How will sound work? Do I need a sound card or will my mobo support dual sound setup? What about 5.1 or something crazy like that? Or will I have no sound for the time being lol...
2. Will my Biostar mobo support the nVidia 460? How can I find out (ie like I am looking for a port or something or the chipset to see compatibility?)
3. 64bit vs 32 bit. i have no idea what this means. For SC2 max performance, which is better? In general?
4. Will getting 4gb RAM vs 2GB RAM affect SC2 performance? If it does, how big of a difference? Will .2ghz, or the 460 vs 4850 be a bigger difference, or should I get the 4850 instead/get a weaker CPU and spend the $15 on 4gb ram?
5. My case will fit it all right? if not, whats a full tower under $40 I should get?
Thanks, really looking this down now! I should order within 2 hours..
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1) The mother board has a Realtek ALC662 sound card with 5.1, so you should be fine.
2) The GPU will be fine with the motherboard.
3) In this day and age, there is no reason not to get 64-bit. 32-bit only lets you utilize about 3.25GB (2^32) of RAM. So get the 64-bit. It costs the same, and you will probably be upgrading your RAM later anyway.
4) If you set the theme to Windows Classic, the OS will take less ram, but I would try to fit in 4GB of RAM. When I use SC2, my computer uses about 3 of my 4GB, so I guess you could get 3GB RAM if you can find a kit, it would be a good compromise.
5) Yes, you will be fine with case size.
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1) The motherboard will come with 7.1 audio.
2) You just need a PCI-E x16 slot and enough amperage on the power supply's 12v rail for any GPU. The GTX 460 requires 2 PCI-E 6pin connectors from your PSU but if your PSU doesn't have them than there's no need to worry as many companies include molex to pci-e 6pin adapters with their graphics cards.
3) 2^32 = 4.2 billion, aka 4gb of addressable memory. If you get 4GB of RAM, a GTX 460 1GB. That means you will be left with 3GB of RAM because your GTX 460 needs 1GB to operate as well. If you add another GTX 460 1GB for SLI than you would be left with 2GB of RAM and so on... So always select 64bit operating systems as we won't be reaching 2^64 for a long time...
4) If you run absolutely no background applications while playing SC2 than 2gb is fine. SC2 cannot utilize more than 2GB of RAM as it is a 32-bit application. Looking at task manager, it usually takes around 1.6gb.
5) Full towers usually cost $200+. Most mid-tower ATX cases will fit the GTX 460 as its only ~8 inches long.
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SkyR is right on all points except that the reason the GTX 460 is 1GB is because it has 1GB, not that it needs 1GB. So you will still have 4GB of RAM, and the 460 ALSO has 1GB.
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Yes the GTX 460 1GB comes with 1GB of ram but my point was that 32bit can only address 4gb of memory. He may have 4gb of ram physically plugged in but only 3gb of it will be addressable and the remaining 1gb will be left for the GTX 460. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
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It's exactly as skyR said. Whatever ram your video card has onboard you basically add onto however much ram you have as far as addressable space goes. If it's over 4gb you need 64 bit - if it's under you can stick with 32. I say get 64 bit to future proof yourself (as much as you can in the computer world XD).
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EPT
