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+ Show Spoiler +On March 27 2013 07:41 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 07:17 Alejandrisha wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 27 2013 07:13 Cyro wrote:
You'll want a z77 board if you are trying to overclock or have the money/need to go 3770k over 3570k, i would also reccomend 8gb RAM (even belial who defended 4gb a ton is going to 8gb now..) especially since it's really cheap, and 1600mhz is good but it's not really a big difference at all, probably not noticable.
You can also probably get better parts/deals on other things, why dont you fill out the form in OP and get some opinions here? OK I'll do that thank you ! What is your budget? Under 800 USD (processor not included) What is your resolution? 1360 x 768, but I use a laptop now. I will probably use 1440 x 900, though. What are you using it for? SC2, photoshop are the most demanding things I'll run, but I primarily want to stream SC2 as smoothly as possible What is your upgrade cycle? 2-3 years When do you plan on building it? within a week Do you plan on overclocking? no Do you need an Operating System? yes Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? no Where are you buying your parts from? newegg SC2's performance is decided very much by the CPU - but it's based on single threaded performance, not multithreaded, which basically means adding more cores does not help performance and hyperthreading (the main difference between i5 and i7) does not help either. You're not going to gain anything from going from i5 3570 to i7 3770 in this case, at all really. Your framerates in game would be the same with both CPU's and the encoding power gained from hyperthreading is not really all too relevant for streaming ability - but the most important thing there is that it's only really a factor in what the viewer can see, not how the game feels for you. + Show Spoiler +If you take stock i5 and i7 and say for example the game is running at 100fps, but you lose 30% of your FPS from streaming - both would run the game at 70fps. The i7 might allow you to push stream FPS a little higher, lets just say 1920x1080, 35fps to 1920x1080, 45fps or something - but that will hurt game performance even more, so then you have basically:
i5 or i7 running 35fps stream at 70fps ingame
vs
i7 running 45fps stream at 55-60fps ingame with noticable worse feel for you TL;DR i7 over i5 can help to raise the ceiling of how high you can set stream resolution and FPS - but even if that ceiling is raised (so you have the potential to do it) raising resolution and FPS on stream will still hurt performance - having a "good enough" CPU only ensures you can encode the stream fine, it does not stop game performance from deteriorating. The 7850 will do whatever you want ingame, i mean any time FPS matters (mid to lategame battles) you will have almost identical FPS on max settings vs minimum, as long as physics and effects are the same on both settings (etc max with physics disabled low effects will have same fps as min graphics, physics disabled low effects) because the GPU can handle it and the game is so heavily CPU bottlenecked. Overclocking will help your FPS and performance (with or without streaming - running the game faster always helps) by a pretty big margin, 30% or more and is quite easy. An overclocked 3570k will have streaming limits at around 1920x1080, 45fps, pretty much any resolution below that 60fps quite easily. Anyone that says you can encode a 1920x1080@60fps stream with less than a moderately to high overclocked 3770k is bullshitting or does not know how to stress test, and it's impossible to keep framerates up that high (above 40-45 while capturing game to stream at 60fps) when streaming when it matters in order for it to make a difference, anyway. With the 3570k at stock, you are talking maybe 30fps minimums in 1v1 max battles - overclocked, 40. You can cut like 20-50% from that depending on stream settings and methods. An overclocked 3570k will also beat a 3770k at stock in every way. You didnt say resolution, fps you want to stream at (or bitrate you have available) so its hard to say if the "upgrade" from i5 3570k to i7 3770k would even be relevant or at all noticable for you, but il say almost certainly it wont for streaming/sc2 and for other tasks it's minor (20% gain in heavily multithreaded tasks) Sorry this is probably extremely confusing to read and taken twice as many words as it should have done. Performance particularly with streaming programs is incredibly complex and confusing and i could really use some references to learn more myself - but basically, 3570 at stock is good for the 1920x1080, 30fps or 1280x720, 60fps standards, 3770k most likely you would not notice it was there for most uses, it's like a 20% gain in multithreaded applications (not sure if photoshop falls into that) but an overclocked 3570k would be for example 10-30% better than it depending on application - with sc2 performance on the 30% end
thanks Cyro for saving me 100 bucks 
Here's updated build:
Intel Core i5-3570K Ivy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4000
ASUS P8B75-V LGA 1155 Intel B75 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
CORSAIR XMS 4GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 Desktop Memory Model CMX4GX3M1A1333C9
CORSAIR Builder Series CX600 600W ATX12V v2.3 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply
Antec Three Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
Is this a suitable motherboard and are there any glaring compatibility issues?
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B75 (or H77) means you can't overclock the i5-3570k. No heatsink (other than the one that comes in the box) means overclocking would be limited, even if it were allowed. 4GB of RAM total is okay for some users but pretty tightfisted. CX600 is a waste as CX500 or CX430 would be the same for your purposes but cheaper (these are not amazing but decent enough and cheap). Antec Three Hundred is a dinosaur that's overpriced these days, even considering the many small updates over the years.
edit: you serious about 1440x900? Paying for a monitor soon? What's the total budget for everything: processor, monitor, OS, aall other parts?
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On March 27 2013 09:13 Myrmidon wrote:
B75 (or H77) means you can't overclock the i5-3570k. No heatsink (other than the one that comes in the box) means overclocking would be limited, even if it were allowed. 4GB of RAM total is okay for some users but pretty tightfisted. CX600 is a waste as CX500 or CX430 would be the same for your purposes but cheaper (these are not amazing but decent enough and cheap). Antec Three Hundred is a dinosaur that's overpriced these days, even considering the many small updates over the years.
edit: you serious about 1440x900? Paying for a monitor soon? What's the total budget for everything: processor, monitor, OS, aall other parts?
I was originally going to go with 8GB of ram but the OP swayed me. Will having 8 vs 4 ensure there's no game lag while streaming or does that not affect it? Also, will not overclocking the processor hurt me here?
what do you recommend as a case? or what issues do you have with this one? I kind of just picked a basic one that had a lot of space.
Thanks for your input!
edit: about the resolution- i don't really have a preference.. I've used a laptop for the longest time and my friend just gave me an old monitor he had laying around so that's my resolution :D
total budget is 800 without graphics card. i have one that i won't be replacing here
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RAM: Shouldn't have any effect.
Not overclocking will definitely have an impact on streaming / SC2.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Will having 8 vs 4 ensure there's no game lag while streaming or does that not affect it?
Its just 4, you can run out. Now, for example - i have sc2 using 2gb RAM, firefox using 200mb, skype using 140mb - everything else in task manager only adds up to 150mb or so - so that would be ~2.5gb usage - but im actually at 3.94gb. Windows puts it that high.
Im not entirely sure what type of performance degradations you would have when maxing out RAM, but you should avoid it - 4gb is not quite enough to be comfortable with a game using 2gb and a few other processes open
Also, will not overclocking the processor hurt me here?
Well not overclocking vs overclocking, in the end it's do you want CPU at 3.4ghz or 4.5ghz. Pretty much exactly what it sounds like, a ~32% increase in clock speed that translates almost exactly into performance in CPU limited tasks.
UPDATE: I repeated the experiment with a late game ZvZ replay with maxed armies:
3300 MHz:
Avg: 41.925 - Min: 27 - Max: 58
3700 MHz:
Avg: 46.625 - Min: 32 - Max: 63
4400 MHz:
Avg: 56.025 - Min: 39 - Max: 77
If you have an i5 / i7 series CPU and haven't overclocked, a cheap $30 CPU cooler and a mild overclock could get you a rather nice FPS boost for relatively little effort. In addition to increasing SC2 FPS, overclocking will help with streaming too which is also very CPU hungry. Note the minimums.
total budget is 800 without graphics card.
If you don't have an SSD you could look at one, unless for some reason you do not like loading everything 3-100+x faster. There's not really anything able to outperform the i5 3570 in almost all games and even if your GPU and 1440x900 were not adequate, it's pretty nonsensical to spend a large part of budget upgrading something that's already quite good. Screen res, perhaps, 7850, never in a million years for sc2
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On March 27 2013 09:28 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + Will having 8 vs 4 ensure there's no game lag while streaming or does that not affect it? Its just 4, you can run out. Now, for example - i have sc2 using 2gb RAM, firefox using 200mb, skype using 140mb - everything else in task manager only adds up to 150mb or so - so that would be ~2.5gb usage - but im actually at 3.94gb. Windows puts it that high.
Maybe this is deceptive because of modern Windows prefetching and memory management. 4GB is probably enough so long as your usage pattern is a certain way; I'd get 8GB but there's a case for 4GB I guess. If he gets a Z77 then that will have four RAM slots and the ability to add two more 2GB modules if necessary.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
It says 2mb hardware reserved, 4074mb in use, 14mb modified, 1429mb standby and 629mb free. This is of 6gb RAM, that paired with Belial's comment (something like "maybe i need more than 4gb RAM" while streaming sc2) after buying a really nice 2x2gb kit for overclocking and defending it before just makes me think it's not worth it to stick with 4, even running a lean system and running clean boot every day etc, i'd say 6gb on triple channel, 8 on dual because 4 is really on the edge of being "enough"
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On March 27 2013 09:34 Myrmidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 09:28 Cyro wrote: Will having 8 vs 4 ensure there's no game lag while streaming or does that not affect it? Its just 4, you can run out. Now, for example - i have sc2 using 2gb RAM, firefox using 200mb, skype using 140mb - everything else in task manager only adds up to 150mb or so - so that would be ~2.5gb usage - but im actually at 3.94gb. Windows puts it that high. Maybe this is deceptive because of modern Windows prefetching and memory management. 4GB is probably enough so long as your usage pattern is a certain way; I'd get 8GB but there's a case for 4GB I guess. If he gets a Z77 then that will have four RAM slots and the ability to add two more 2GB modules if necessary.
Plus, I think SC2 running 2GB is a bit of exaggeration. I've only ever seen mine at 1.6GB (actually ~1.6 million kilobytes which is a bit less again, right?).
I'm not advocating 4GB, but I am saying that if money is even a small issue, the loss will be negligible (assuming reasonably efficient memory management).
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Not an exaggeration, i just loaded it again and played through 1 replay - 1.96gb. Sc2 does not load everything immediately (hence preloader maps etc and stuttering problems) so it will climb over time and restarting it is pretty silly if you plan to play any time soon, i've seen it above 2gb plenty of times, not sure how far above though.
I agree you could make do with 4gb, but then you are kind of forced to think about memory management etc, avoid things like opening lots of browser tabs that a lot of people simply dont want to do, i think 4 is just a little low for comfortable operating without having to worry about being limited while doing reasonable things with it
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On March 27 2013 09:49 Cyro wrote:
Not an exaggeration, i just loaded it again and played through 1 replay - 1.96gb. Sc2 does not load everything immediately (hence preloader maps etc and stuttering problems) so it will climb over time and restarting it is pretty silly if you plan to play any time soon, i've seen it above 2gb plenty of times, not sure how far above though.
Fair enough, I probably have only seen it when I tab out of the main menu - still, I have seen it at that usage, and lower, many times. And 1.6 ---> 2GB or more is a big leap. I'm not bought fully, but I don't have my computer at hand to disprove it. In any case, it's nit-picking, I think we're all mostly on the same page worth regards to the RAM, it's just a case of which side of the fence we decide to stand on at a given time.
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Alright, so I'm looking to build my first desktop gaming rig. I've owned laptops for basically my entire life. My budget is around $1200-$1500 (most likely). I would like to be playing on a 1920x1080 monitor, but I DO need to buy one. I intend to use it for mostly gaming, however there might be some photoshop work, and maybe some video work. I don't really have that much of a set upgrade cycle, but I would like it to be upgradeable in the future. I may overclock the processor, but I haven't quite decided yet. It would mostly depend on the performance of the computer and whether or not I wanted to get more out of it. I am by no means a graphics-whore but I would like the games to look decent. I'd mostly be buying stuff online or maybe my local fry's. No second GPU, for the moment.
Given that this is my first build, there might be glaring errors in the setup. I consider myself fluent with computers, but I've never built a gaming setup, so this is definitely a first for me. Additionally, I would like to be able to run Heart of the Swarm on High Settings, TF2 on High Settings, and some other games. Not many will be particularly graphically intensive, however I would like that the computer can run graphics-demanding games if I ever play them.
What I've been looking at looks something like this:
CPU: Intel Core i7 3770K LGA 1155
GPU: GeForce GTX 670 2gb 256-bit GDDr5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP
Motherboard: asus P8Z77-V LK LGA 1155 Intel Z77 Motherboard
PSU: Corsair HX750
RAM: Corsair Vengeance 16gb Dual Channel DDR3 Memory Kit
HDD: Western Digital 1TB 6.0 Gb/s 3.5" HDD
Case: Corsair Carbide Series 500R Mid-Tower Case
I need some advice though:
First: What Fan? Also, any monitor recommendations?
Second: How's the compatibility with all of the components? Will it all fit in the case?
Third: Is there anything extremely superfluous here? Can I shave off any money? (It's about $1700 with a random monitor and windows 7).
Fourth: Am I missing anything?
Fifth: What do you think about the setup? Good value? Good Performance? Anything else to add?
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On March 27 2013 10:49 DamenPulse wrote:
Alright, so I'm looking to build my first desktop gaming rig. I've owned laptops for basically my entire life. My budget is around $1200-$1500 (most likely). I would like to be playing on a 1920x1080 monitor, but I DO need to buy one. I intend to use it for mostly gaming, however there might be some photoshop work, and maybe some video work. I don't really have that much of a set upgrade cycle, but I would like it to be upgradeable in the future. I may overclock the processor, but I haven't quite decided yet. It would mostly depend on the performance of the computer and whether or not I wanted to get more out of it. I am by no means a graphics-whore but I would like the games to look decent. I'd mostly be buying stuff online or maybe my local fry's. No second GPU, for the moment.
Given that this is my first build, there might be glaring errors in the setup. I consider myself fluent with computers, but I've never built a gaming setup, so this is definitely a first for me. Additionally, I would like to be able to run Heart of the Swarm on High Settings, TF2 on High Settings, and some other games. Not many will be particularly graphically intensive, however I would like that the computer can run graphics-demanding games if I ever play them.
What I've been looking at looks something like this:
CPU: Intel Core i7 3770K LGA 1155
GPU: GeForce GTX 670 2gb 256-bit GDDr5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP
Motherboard: asus P8Z77-V LK LGA 1155 Intel Z77 Motherboard
PSU: Corsair HX750
RAM: Corsair Vengeance 16gb Dual Channel DDR3 Memory Kit
HDD: Western Digital 1TB 6.0 Gb/s 3.5" HDD
Case: Corsair Carbide Series 500R Mid-Tower Case
I need some advice though:
First: What Fan? Also, any monitor recommendations?
Second: How's the compatibility with all of the components? Will it all fit in the case?
Third: Is there anything extremely superfluous here? Can I shave off any money? (It's about $1700 with a random monitor and windows 7).
Fourth: Am I missing anything?
Fifth: What do you think about the setup? Good value? Good Performance? Anything else to add?
i5-3570k
GTX660
8GB ram
Rosewill Capstone 450w
Shaves ~$400 off.
The only time you would want a monsterous graphics card is if you have a 120hz monitor or a 2560 x 1440/1600 monitor.
The only difference between i5 and i7 is hypertreading, which does nothing in gaming.
16GB is a crazy waste.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
I would "obtain" windows in another way too to shave another $100 off, CPU overclock with cheapish cooler for value, in order of performance: xigmatek gaia, 212 evo, hr-02 macho (last one more expensive but higher performance tier and quieter) you can take to 4.4-4.8ghz quite easily depending on luck and cooling and also many would think it silly to make a >$1k build without a 64-128gb SSD
I would get RAM without the big heatspreaders too, they give no practical function and have the potential to get in the way.
Maybe bump motherboard up a little if overclocking more than lightly (not sure if the -LK board would limit but i would probably avoid higher end cooling (hr-02 macho) and trying to overclock moderately (4.6-4.8ghz if possible) with a lower quality board, though it's probably completely fine for a 212/gaia overclock like 4.4ghz.
Or cut money on the board if not overclocking, i don't know motherboards very well to recommend though.
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Hey, thanks for the replies guys. $400 is a big difference, so I'll definitely consider the suggestions. Overclocking is something that I might be interested in, so maybe I'll just build it in for the potential.
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Civ V is destroying my cpu lol. Well, from what I have researched, the heatsinks/fans on AMD processors aren't very good. Just ordered a Coolermaster replacement (looks like it is a bit of a PITA to replace). I figured I would go with that first, and if my cpu is fried, I at least have something to use for an upgrade (currently using an non-overclocked amd Athlon II x3 450). Last time I shut down BIOS read 80 c. :D
Smart way to go, or anything else I should try that I'm missing (not sure if worth upgrading atm or wait)?
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Thats probably a bad reading, im pretty sure athlon II's hit stability issues at far lower temps
Why do you think it is dead? Will your system not boot? If it worked fine before then it's really weird to just not boot
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On March 27 2013 13:23 Cyro wrote:
Thats probably a bad reading, im pretty sure athlon II's hit stability issues at far lower temps
Why do you think it is dead? Will your system not boot? If it worked fine before then it's really weird to just not boot
Not that I think it's dead, just fear I may have damaged it with constantly trying to play Civ V lol. For whatever reason that game really strains my system and my pc always just shuts off after a while when I play it. Only seems to happen on that game, but it is notorious for working the hardware, especially cpu. Don't know if I did any permanent damage or not (probably not since it's only happening when I play Civ V), but figure a good aftermarket cooler couldn't hurt.
Maybe the guy that built the rig for me messed up installing the cpu or the thermal paste, not sure. I know he did snag the optional case fans...
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EPT
