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^ Hyperthreading isn't going to matter in games, the cache is probably a bigger issue.
The video has my head scratching a bit, he used a 7870 and identical systems. I wish they were overclocked, ie compare standard overclock limits on the chips (ie common 4.5 on intel, 5 on amd).I think with the improved IPC your gonna see intel go way ahead of amd when you introduce overclock vs overclock, especially if its i7 vs 8350.
I'm wondering if bottlenecks, like the 7870 on metro @ 1440, would be an issue... i mean a strong card but maybe not strong enough for the tests being done?
I think he mostly tested very heavily multi-threaded games, though. i mean people say more cores for future proof, but what's to say the future doesnt go more towards memory on chip, on ddr4 ram, or better IPC, or floating point units. I mean you are gambling that the future goes one of two ways, towards more cores (or more specifically, integer points, since fx not truly 8 core, 6 core, etc), while better IPC is ALWAYS going to be appreciated, regardless of which direction the future goes.
future proofing is such a stupid concept anyways, since most people enthusiast/gaming buying 8350s or i5s are going to be upgrading in 2 years anyways, and all such chips are more than powerful enough. its like complaining if your machine gun is good enough for hunting, imo.
its also only one bench of many done, the only one saying different results, although to his credit, i'm not sure if i can find huge flaws in the methodology. For sure, there's a problem with the fact he's just playing the game, instead of running a replay or something consistent, but I think that issue goes away when you do so many benchmarks, and like he said, he retested some of them multiple times.
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His benchark is BS, i just saw the crysis one, LOL'd all along
Either completly biased or very bad chip or something else
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So, what would be better and/or more futureproof for gaming then? FX-8350 w/ MSI 970A MOBO for $225 or 3570k w/ B75 MOBO for $225? Seems like the 3570k would be better. My build was pretty much final until this guy came along w/ his video.
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On January 12 2013 12:04 RiceAgainst wrote:
So, what would be better and/or more futureproof for gaming then? FX-8350 w/ MSI 970A MOBO for $225 or 3570k w/ B75 MOBO for $225? Seems like the 3570k would be better. My build was pretty much final until this guy came along w/ his video.
We were all laughing at his video. It's pretty much bunk. The i5-3570k is significantly better.
Edit: though note that you cannot overclock on a B75 mobo.
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That was for teh lulz.
And those 3570k results dont make sense, it honestly looks like his cooler was installed wrong.
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3570k build, 4.5ghz+. 4gb ram.
I have a gtx 460. Would SLI'ing the 460's create an appreciable increase in sc2 performance? I'm wondering if I should get a 12v@42a+ psu, or just a regular quality 300w+ psu. I think the cx 600m for like $59 or maybe some other cx corsair for about $50 is the cheapest 12v@42a+, otherwise it's like $20-25 for a 400w+ quality psu (i think one of the cxs, maybe modular ones too).
I know minimum fps is all cpu... so just curious. I mean i guess you could rephrase the question "would anything stronger than a gtx 460 be appreciated by sc2?".
With answers, please differentiate between significant increase in performance, if it's dependent on something (ie only at 1080 resolution), or if it's only bleeding edge differences (ie it'll matter with 1080 with in-game AA enabled) kind of thing.
I mean the gtx 460 should be more than powerful enough for 720 with AA enabled, all ultra, right? Probably strong enough for 1080 with ingame AA.
thanks... i mean i could go crazy thinking about what an extra $50 in my build could do. I mean I could get an i7 instead of i5 for that much (what would be a bigger performance increase, an i7 or a 2nd, SLI'd 460? right?).
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On January 12 2013 20:27 Belial88 wrote:
3570k build, 4.5ghz+. 4gb ram.
I have a gtx 460. Would SLI'ing the 460's create an appreciable increase in sc2 performance? I'm wondering if I should get a 12v@42a+ psu, or just a regular quality 300w+ psu. I think the cx 600m for like $59 or maybe some other cx corsair for about $50 is the cheapest 12v@42a+, otherwise it's like $20-25 for a 400w+ quality psu (i think one of the cxs, maybe modular ones too).
I know minimum fps is all cpu... so just curious. I mean i guess you could rephrase the question "would anything stronger than a gtx 460 be appreciated by sc2?".
With answers, please differentiate between significant increase in performance, if it's dependent on something (ie only at 1080 resolution), or if it's only bleeding edge differences (ie it'll matter with 1080 with in-game AA enabled) kind of thing.
I mean the gtx 460 should be more than powerful enough for 720 with AA enabled, all ultra, right? Probably strong enough for 1080 with ingame AA.
thanks... i mean i could go crazy thinking about what an extra $50 in my build could do. I mean I could get an i7 instead of i5 for that much (what would be a bigger performance increase, an i7 or a 2nd, SLI'd 460? right?).
I wouldn't recommend SLI 460, you're almost certainly better off getting a single more powerful card and selling your old one. If it's just for starcraft, I might suggest a gtx 660.
An i7 won't really change your framerates much, the only gaming advantage it has is a bit of extra L3 cache. Other than that, you're stuck waiting for Haswell.
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Heya, after having my computer for over 4 years now i've decided to build my own computer for the first time.
I don't really have much knowledge of all this stuff, so im just going to post all the questions and await the replies, thanks in advance ;-).
What is your budget?
Around 800-1000(euro).
What is your resolution?
1920x1080.
What are you using it for?
Mainly gaming, photoshop and some streaming on the side.
What is your upgrade cycle?
3-4 years.
When do you plan on building it?
As soon as possible.
Do you plan on overclocking?
Not at all.
Do you need an Operating System?
Nope, covered.
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire?
Nope.
Where are you buying your parts from?
This is actually my biggest problem at the moment, i live in the netherlands and so far i havent really come across a place to buy components for a reasonable price, so if anyone has a suggestion or knows a good place, please let me know. Otherwise i'll just have to get them fairly overpriced.
Thanks again Teamliquid.
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On January 12 2013 21:32 SoulWager wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 20:27 Belial88 wrote:
3570k build, 4.5ghz+. 4gb ram.
I have a gtx 460. Would SLI'ing the 460's create an appreciable increase in sc2 performance? I'm wondering if I should get a 12v@42a+ psu, or just a regular quality 300w+ psu. I think the cx 600m for like $59 or maybe some other cx corsair for about $50 is the cheapest 12v@42a+, otherwise it's like $20-25 for a 400w+ quality psu (i think one of the cxs, maybe modular ones too).
I know minimum fps is all cpu... so just curious. I mean i guess you could rephrase the question "would anything stronger than a gtx 460 be appreciated by sc2?".
With answers, please differentiate between significant increase in performance, if it's dependent on something (ie only at 1080 resolution), or if it's only bleeding edge differences (ie it'll matter with 1080 with in-game AA enabled) kind of thing.
I mean the gtx 460 should be more than powerful enough for 720 with AA enabled, all ultra, right? Probably strong enough for 1080 with ingame AA.
thanks... i mean i could go crazy thinking about what an extra $50 in my build could do. I mean I could get an i7 instead of i5 for that much (what would be a bigger performance increase, an i7 or a 2nd, SLI'd 460? right?). I wouldn't recommend SLI 460, you're almost certainly better off getting a single more powerful card and selling your old one. If it's just for starcraft, I might suggest a gtx 660. An i7 won't really change your framerates much, the only gaming advantage it has is a bit of extra L3 cache. Other than that, you're stuck waiting for Haswell.
Well 2 x 460's is super cheap. Right now a 460 on the low end is $60, so it'll probably be around there in a year or less. A 660ti is not going to drop below $150 anytime soon. But it's comparable performance, i believe. not sure, just a rough search on prices and performances there.
So like would a 660 (660ti?dont you mean ti since the plain is not worth getting?) be a significant improvement over a plain 460, basically, in sc2. I mean I can already max everything out on a single gtx 460 768mb with aa and all on 720 (yea ill get a 1080 monitor before i upgrade my gpu). But you can max out sc2 on an athlon ii system, but an i5 will still be a huge performance increase over it.
or am i not being understood? Like I don't need to upgrade, but I was just curious if it'd be a significant upgrade, or just a minor one, if it'd be appreciated at all or what. I mean the 4850 was a lot weaker than the 460, and obviously so, in sc2 performance.
I'm not holding my breath for haswell. Basically, if I have an extra $50, what would be a better increase in performance - a 2nd gtx 460 in a year or two (when it drops from $60-80 to $50) or an i7 3770k. If haswell is great I'll just sell this build on craigslist when it comes out and use the funds towards a haswell build, I'm not going to get into the rabbit hole of a haswell convo, no one can predict the future anyways.
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On January 13 2013 06:55 Belial88 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 12 2013 21:32 SoulWager wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 20:27 Belial88 wrote:
3570k build, 4.5ghz+. 4gb ram.
I have a gtx 460. Would SLI'ing the 460's create an appreciable increase in sc2 performance? I'm wondering if I should get a 12v@42a+ psu, or just a regular quality 300w+ psu. I think the cx 600m for like $59 or maybe some other cx corsair for about $50 is the cheapest 12v@42a+, otherwise it's like $20-25 for a 400w+ quality psu (i think one of the cxs, maybe modular ones too).
I know minimum fps is all cpu... so just curious. I mean i guess you could rephrase the question "would anything stronger than a gtx 460 be appreciated by sc2?".
With answers, please differentiate between significant increase in performance, if it's dependent on something (ie only at 1080 resolution), or if it's only bleeding edge differences (ie it'll matter with 1080 with in-game AA enabled) kind of thing.
I mean the gtx 460 should be more than powerful enough for 720 with AA enabled, all ultra, right? Probably strong enough for 1080 with ingame AA.
thanks... i mean i could go crazy thinking about what an extra $50 in my build could do. I mean I could get an i7 instead of i5 for that much (what would be a bigger performance increase, an i7 or a 2nd, SLI'd 460? right?). I wouldn't recommend SLI 460, you're almost certainly better off getting a single more powerful card and selling your old one. If it's just for starcraft, I might suggest a gtx 660. An i7 won't really change your framerates much, the only gaming advantage it has is a bit of extra L3 cache. Other than that, you're stuck waiting for Haswell. Well 2 x 460's is super cheap. Right now a 460 on the low end is $60, so it'll probably be around there in a year or less. A 660ti is not going to drop below $150 anytime soon. But it's comparable performance, i believe. not sure, just a rough search on prices and performances there. So like would a 660 (660ti?dont you mean ti since the plain is not worth getting?) be a significant improvement over a plain 460, basically, in sc2. I mean I can already max everything out on a single gtx 460 768mb with aa and all on 720 (yea ill get a 1080 monitor before i upgrade my gpu). But you can max out sc2 on an athlon ii system, but an i5 will still be a huge performance increase over it. or am i not being understood? Like I don't need to upgrade, but I was just curious if it'd be a significant upgrade, or just a minor one, if it'd be appreciated at all or what. I mean the 4850 was a lot weaker than the 460, and obviously so, in sc2 performance. I'm not holding my breath for haswell. Basically, if I have an extra $50, what would be a better increase in performance - a 2nd gtx 460 in a year or two (when it drops from $60-80 to $50) or an i7 3770k. If haswell is great I'll just sell this build on craigslist when it comes out and use the funds towards a haswell build, I'm not going to get into the rabbit hole of a haswell convo, no one can predict the future anyways.
It seems highly unlikely a 460 can be easily found for $60, new or used. But if you know of a place, I'd love to see a link. It'd be great for a bunch of budget builds. Heck, I might even think about getting one.
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Yea, 460s and other older gen cards are best on ebay. Most computer stuff is usually cheaper on egg or mc or walmart, etc, but you can find really good gpus on ebay for cheap just because its an older series. 550 and 650 are worse than the 460 yet are way more expensive. Bullshit gpu companies making a new series every 5 months that isn't any better, but chrages out the ass for a 630 that's not nearly as good as 460.
4850, 460, 9800/8800/etc, 4870, 480s, lots of great cards for cheap on ebay. Not like the 660 has features that 4xx doesnt. That means anything.
Geeks.com also sells a lot of older gen stuff for cheap. And companies like newegg, ncix, etc, all sell older gen stuff stock on ebay.
You aren't buying from ebay, its buying from one seller or another
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Not 60 dollars. I understand prices are a lot cheaper in the States (generally a 1:1 ratio from what I've seen with the euro). I sold my 460 768MB about 3 months ago for 85 euro (2 years' use, never OCed). So call that 80 dollars. I think that's the price you're looking at unless you're extremely lucky. Plus you're taking a risk with second hand products; warranty law is a lot weaker in the states too compared to the EU AFAIK.
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The gtx 460 is also going to be way more expensive in europe because of import, taxes, etc. That's not a fair comparison at all.
it's not very hard to figure out:
http://www.ebay.com/csc/Graphics-Video-Cards-/27386/i.html?LH_Sold=1&_from=R40&LH_Complete=1&_nkw=gtx 460
Ebay -> Graphics Cards -> GTX 460 -> Sold Listings
The GTX 460, in general, goes for $60-80 in the US. You might get a little more for new, or specialized, you'd go less if there was a defect or issue, but in general, the 460 prices around $60-80.
This is coming from someone who has sold 2 460's in the last few months, by the way. Selling your 460 for $80 is a very good deal, generally you are only going to get about $70. You'll get $80 if it's in very good condition, a good non-reference model, maybe included shipping or something to sweeten the deal, but generally they won't sell that much used. $60 is on the low end, but say, a 768mb, maybe it's got a little dust, maybe it's an ugly brand or something, maybe you just want to get rid of it asap...
Anyways, I said $60-80. And I also said $50 in a long time. I didn't exactly say $60.... And your in europe.
Saying there is a risk in second hand products is retarded, you are just fearmongering. First hand products can fail just as much, what is important is the seller - newegg lists used stuff on ebay. Is buying from them riskier than buying from their website? LOL. Just like with anything, know what you are doing. Buying new is stupid if you buy your 460 from target.com, for example.
Also, many GPUs have warranties that go by serial number, and cover overvolting and overclocking (such was the case with Galaxy, MSi, HIS... every brand GPU I've owned, frankly). If you have a used GPU, you will often still be covered under warranty.
Nowadays, though, we are approaching that time limit where even if you buy a 460 brand new, it won't be covered anymore, because warranties go by manufacture date generally, not by sale date.
Warranty is a case by case issue, and most of the time, GPU warranty is not broken by being a used or second hand GPU.
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this is really derailing everything, i dont care what a gtx 460 sells for or what you think it sells for in europe.
I've got a 3570k, ud3h, case, 460, and ssd in here. I'm lacking ram (god damnit those crucials all sold out instantly before i got home, i knew i should have bought them on my cell phone when i was driving back from microcenter) and power supply, because I'm holding on based on whether I should get a PSU capable of SLI or not (so far, I've missed out on a $19 cx 430, $24 cx 430 modular, and $39 xfx pro 550 because of my indecision on this).
I'm asking if a GPU more powerful than a GTX 460 would be appreciated by starcraft2, or would anything more powerful simply not mean anything, sc2 being so cpu dependent and all. Would it matter just a tiny bit, would a 660ti, for example, be a noticeably huge jump up in sc2 performance, i mean what.
to be more general, has anyone noticed a significant increase in performance from upgrading from a 460, 465, 470, 560, 650ti, etc, range of type of card, to a 660ti, 7850, 7870, etc powerful card?
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Maybe if you have motherships in every game.
Rosewill Green 630 is like $40 fyi.
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5930 Posts
I've done this, only with a HD5850 to GTX660Ti I was going to put into a friend's system. No perceivable difference for obvious reasons, the performance difference is like barely anything worth noting.
Well if you're using DX11, then yeah there's a huge performance difference but SC2 doesn't use DX11 so that doesn't matter.
Saying there is a risk in second hand products is retarded, you are just fearmongering. First hand products can fail just as much, what is important is the seller - newegg lists used stuff on ebay. Is buying from them riskier than buying from their website? LOL. Just like with anything, know what you are doing. Buying new is stupid if you buy your 460 from target.com, for example.
Buying new makes sure that the manufacturer won't try and weasel out. Stop trying to paint a picture where buying second hand is utterly risk free.
It is important to note that the only GPU companies that will accept warranty claims without proof of purchase are Asus, MSI, and Gigabyte (unsurprising, they're probably the big three) so if you're going to buy a GPU, it must come from one of those three companies if you want a reliable chance of getting warranty. All other companies go by purchase date or reject warranty claims the minute they stop producing a product (i.e. PNY).
Sometimes you can't expect the code to be right. I recently bought a Samsung 830, which has a serial code that is out of the warranty period (impossible, it hasn't even been out for 5 years). In such situations, proof of purchase is paramount. And don't get me started about monitors. The only two companies that go by serial would be Dell and HP business monitors. Every other company will pretty much ask for proof of purchase because monitor repair can get extremely expensive.
Buying second hand is a valid method of buying hardware, its probably the most common way of buying high end audio hardware (relatively simple hardware that can easily last decades) for a good price. But don't paint it as a completely risk free proposition that is just as good as buying new, I've already warned you about this. Buying new gives you the full weight of the law behind you and often generous return policies, buying second hand typically does not.
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Thanks for your bit on the gpu, i wont bother with sli then.
No, I don't paint any picture that buying used is riskless. It's just not any riskier than buying new - know the buyer, buy smart, and there's an inherent risk, as with anything.
Not everyone knows to go to newegg, some people think you should buy computer components off sears.com. Likewise, not everyone realizes you should buy from people on ebay with at 100% positive feedback after over 1,000 sales, or that has clear images and descriptions of the product. Not everyone knows that on craigslist, to test out the product first and know how to make sure it's legit, before buying.
Also, HIS and MSi accept warranties without proof of purchase. And I'm sure many companies that say they need proof of purchase, don't actually need it (case in point: Intel never asks for your proof of purchase, but lists it as a requirement for RMA on their website).
Most computer components, I find are best bought new. It's only GPUs, heatsinks, and some miscellaneous items, that I think are best bought new, and that's not even the case all the time. i think for $200+, it's better to buy a GPU new. Sometimes, certain heatsinks are best bought new (hyper 212 is always on sale somewhere, and not going to be any cheaper on ebay because it's so dirt cheap as it is, newer gen closed loops, sometimes a cooler new will be on huge discount like that logisys assassin @ $39).
To say buying used is just risky, or that ebay is dangerous, is absurd. It's only riskier if you are stupid, otherwise there's a risk no matter where you buy from (just look at the newegg reviews and see how many DOAs every product has, and how many of them say they won't get reimbursed, refunded, etc).
Anyways I'll just go with a 300w+ psu. if I ever decide to sli I'm better off buying that heavy psu when the time comes and selling the one I get (ugh, i missed that cx 430 modular for $24.... i thought shell shocker would last 24 hours).
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EPT
