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On December 07 2012 11:50 Rachnar wrote:You could get an HD7850 1GB (i think it's like 160$? not sure though) which will play sc2 on ultra np and most games on high settings too no problemo rest of the build is still plenty good don't worry about it (but if do want an upgrade for photo design, etc.... you'd need a better cpu, the problem being, the i3 is good, but not the best, and i find it idiotic going from a 110$ cpu to a 180$ i5 for not that much gain, and the i7 costs a lot. So i'd advice an Xeon which cost a bit more then the i5 but a lot less then the i7 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117286 ,but even then after writing this much i'd still advice just upgrading your graphics card for gaming unless you don't really care about it)
Does it make sense to just wait maybe until summer to buy an i7 (maybe instead of buying a new gfx card now)?
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On December 07 2012 13:24 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 11:49 Belial88 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hardware secrets isn't too hot of a benchmark either. First off, the problem is stock fans. A lot of CPU coolers seem a lot better than they really are, because they have shitty, loud, strong fans (Hyper 212+, Phanteks), or they do worse because they have a much milder fan optimized for low sound (NH-D14, Hyper 212 EVO). A good example of this is the H70. It's the worst closed loop cooler out there, but it sells and 'performs' better because at stock it includes 2 power, loud, shitty fans. You compare closed loop 120mm rad systems, and you'l find the H50 consistently outperforms the H70, but on benchmarks like at Hardwaresecrets, you wouldn't know that, because the H50 only comes with a single fan that's optimized to be quiet. Apples to apples man. Not a hard concept. You can also look at the benchmark and see it's full of crap, too. Your telling me a Hyper 212 EVO is significantly better than an Antec Kuhler 620, THE best 120mm closed loop cooler out there? And Oh, look, the Spire Thermax II, which Frostytech rates as THE BEST COOLER IN THE WORLD and better than Phanteks/NH-d14/Assassin/SA, is near the bottom of the barrel. Surely this can't be a proper site to trust if the Spire Thermax Eclipse doesn't come as #1 cooler?! Oh look at that, the NH-D14 is worse than the Kuhler 620, Megahalems, Hyper 212 Evo, and H70. Seriously dude. I'm don't care too much about benchmarks used, but when you keep citing benches that show the Hyper 212 EVO to beat a NH-D14, which is consistently ranked as in the top 5 air coolers in the world, it's a joke. Everyone knows hardwaresecrets is a joke. While your at it, please don't cite Tomshardware as your next bench. lol at hyper 212 evo 'comparative to a nh-d14'. Your clueless dude. A 4 HDT is not going to beat a an 8 heatpipe dual tower with a 140mm fan and 120mm fan at stock. The Hyper 212 Evo is just a lapped Hyper 212+ with a shittier fan, it only tests 1-2*C more than the Hyper 212+ at most. I really don't think you know what you are talking about when you think that basically a lapped Hyper 212+ is better than a 620 or NH-D14. Just google this shit, instead of picking the worst benchmarks sites out there on purpose to be a troll. Assassin. Best heatsink in the world apples to apples! Inarguably, in the top 5 heatsinks in the world - Thermalright Silver Arrow, NH-D14, Phanteks, at both stock and apples to apples. Apples to apples is a useful benchmark for coolers... but I generally prefer NOT using apples-to-apples benchmarks. If I buy a fan, most of the time I'm going to use the fans that come with it. Of course, for me personally I'm not going to give the thermal performance more than a look or two - I'm going to look straight at those acoustic benchmarks. Where, of course, apples-to-apples would be pretty meaningless. If you look at the benchmarks that really matter (to me), no one in the world is going to think a Phanteks is any good. But you wouldn't be able to tell that from apples to apples. There's a reason I use an HR-02 Macho. And trust me, it's not the cooling performance.
HR-02, apples to apples, is THE best heatsink in the world when you have zero fans on, or only a single fan. I'm not sure what you mean. It outperforms high end coolers like NH-D14, Phanteks, Silver Arrow, and Assassin when there's zero fans, or with just a single fan. It's the best heatsink when it comes to cooling performance as quiet as possible. I'm not sure what you mean.
Why did you pick the HR-02 if you aren't after cooling performance? Even with 2x fans it comes very close, it's not the top 5 in coolers but it's definitely in the top 10, and it's lower in price i believe, so it's actually a much better value than the NH-D14/Assassin/Phanteks/SA generally (except the $39 assassin on sale, or the others if they are on sale, obviously). I'm not sure what you mean. Apples to apples, it outperforms every cooler out there with zero fans or 1 fan.
Considering you can buy Yate Loons for $4 each, one of the best fans out there for CFM/dba, unquestionably so at the budget price range, I don't think there's any reason not to consider apples to apples when looking at heatsinks. It'd be one thing if heatsinks were like $10-20, or if you were going for the hyper 21+ (and even then, I think its definitely worth it), but if your looking at things like the H50/H60/H70, or CM whatchamacallit, for $40, yea, definitely, consider apples to apples and using your own fans.
Like why would you buy such a shitty cooler like the H70? At stock, it's 'decent' because it comes with 2 powerful fans. But an H50 is almost half the price, and if you slap 2 x $5 fans, you got a cooler that will outperform the H70 in any configuration. I don't think it would be wise to buy the H70 ever, considering an H50+Fans is much cheaper, and yate loons are better than the stock corsair fans anyways. That's why I think apples to apples is important.
The point of apples to apples is to save money, not lose money. Instead of buying a $60 heatsink, buy a $40 heatsink plus $10 in 2 fans, for $70 cooling. And if your paying over $50 for a heatsink, you will definitely have the money to spend $10 on 2 extra fans to really make your heatsink shine.
Phanteks is the best heatsink at stock, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your comment. It's the 2nd best heatsink in apples to apples, 2nd only to the assassin.
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On December 07 2012 14:30 Belial88 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 07 2012 13:24 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 11:49 Belial88 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hardware secrets isn't too hot of a benchmark either. First off, the problem is stock fans. A lot of CPU coolers seem a lot better than they really are, because they have shitty, loud, strong fans (Hyper 212+, Phanteks), or they do worse because they have a much milder fan optimized for low sound (NH-D14, Hyper 212 EVO). A good example of this is the H70. It's the worst closed loop cooler out there, but it sells and 'performs' better because at stock it includes 2 power, loud, shitty fans. You compare closed loop 120mm rad systems, and you'l find the H50 consistently outperforms the H70, but on benchmarks like at Hardwaresecrets, you wouldn't know that, because the H50 only comes with a single fan that's optimized to be quiet. Apples to apples man. Not a hard concept. You can also look at the benchmark and see it's full of crap, too. Your telling me a Hyper 212 EVO is significantly better than an Antec Kuhler 620, THE best 120mm closed loop cooler out there? And Oh, look, the Spire Thermax II, which Frostytech rates as THE BEST COOLER IN THE WORLD and better than Phanteks/NH-d14/Assassin/SA, is near the bottom of the barrel. Surely this can't be a proper site to trust if the Spire Thermax Eclipse doesn't come as #1 cooler?! Oh look at that, the NH-D14 is worse than the Kuhler 620, Megahalems, Hyper 212 Evo, and H70. Seriously dude. I'm don't care too much about benchmarks used, but when you keep citing benches that show the Hyper 212 EVO to beat a NH-D14, which is consistently ranked as in the top 5 air coolers in the world, it's a joke. Everyone knows hardwaresecrets is a joke. While your at it, please don't cite Tomshardware as your next bench. lol at hyper 212 evo 'comparative to a nh-d14'. Your clueless dude. A 4 HDT is not going to beat a an 8 heatpipe dual tower with a 140mm fan and 120mm fan at stock. The Hyper 212 Evo is just a lapped Hyper 212+ with a shittier fan, it only tests 1-2*C more than the Hyper 212+ at most. I really don't think you know what you are talking about when you think that basically a lapped Hyper 212+ is better than a 620 or NH-D14. Just google this shit, instead of picking the worst benchmarks sites out there on purpose to be a troll. Assassin. Best heatsink in the world apples to apples! Inarguably, in the top 5 heatsinks in the world - Thermalright Silver Arrow, NH-D14, Phanteks, at both stock and apples to apples. Apples to apples is a useful benchmark for coolers... but I generally prefer NOT using apples-to-apples benchmarks. If I buy a fan, most of the time I'm going to use the fans that come with it. Of course, for me personally I'm not going to give the thermal performance more than a look or two - I'm going to look straight at those acoustic benchmarks. Where, of course, apples-to-apples would be pretty meaningless. If you look at the benchmarks that really matter (to me), no one in the world is going to think a Phanteks is any good. But you wouldn't be able to tell that from apples to apples. There's a reason I use an HR-02 Macho. And trust me, it's not the cooling performance. HR-02, apples to apples, is THE best heatsink in the world when you have zero fans on, or only a single fan. I'm not sure what you mean. It outperforms high end coolers like NH-D14, Phanteks, Silver Arrow, and Assassin when there's zero fans, or with just a single fan. It's the best heatsink when it comes to cooling performance as quiet as possible. I'm not sure what you mean. Why did you pick the HR-02 if you aren't after cooling performance? Even with 2x fans it comes very close, it's not the top 5 in coolers but it's definitely in the top 10, and it's lower in price i believe, so it's actually a much better value than the NH-D14/Assassin/Phanteks/SA generally (except the $39 assassin on sale, or the others if they are on sale, obviously). I'm not sure what you mean. Apples to apples, it outperforms every cooler out there with zero fans or 1 fan. Considering you can buy Yate Loons for $4 each, one of the best fans out there for CFM/dba, unquestionably so at the budget price range, I don't think there's any reason not to consider apples to apples when looking at heatsinks. It'd be one thing if heatsinks were like $10-20, or if you were going for the hyper 21+ (and even then, I think its definitely worth it), but if your looking at things like the H50/H60/H70, or CM whatchamacallit, for $40, yea, definitely, consider apples to apples and using your own fans. Like why would you buy such a shitty cooler like the H70? At stock, it's 'decent' because it comes with 2 powerful fans. But an H50 is almost half the price, and if you slap 2 x $5 fans, you got a cooler that will outperform the H70 in any configuration. I don't think it would be wise to buy the H70 ever, considering an H50+Fans is much cheaper, and yate loons are better than the stock corsair fans anyways. That's why I think apples to apples is important. The point of apples to apples is to save money, not lose money. Instead of buying a $60 heatsink, buy a $40 heatsink plus $10 in 2 fans, for $70 cooling. And if your paying over $50 for a heatsink, you will definitely have the money to spend $10 on 2 extra fans to really make your heatsink shine. Phanteks is the best heatsink at stock, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your comment. It's the 2nd best heatsink in apples to apples, 2nd only to the assassin.
I bought it because it's very, very quiet. And in the winter I can run near-fanless (the PSU has a fan, but no case fans or tower fan). Most people don't buy extra fans, particularly when you're buying under $50 for a heatsink, like me. I didn't. In the summer, my single Thermalright whatever is quiet enough.
Many people use non-apples to apples ACOUSTIC benchmarks, which is the point I was making about the Phanteks. I don't think you got that point the first time.
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On December 07 2012 13:55 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 11:56 Belial88 wrote:On December 07 2012 09:44 semantics wrote:http://www.frostytech.com/testmethod_mk2.cfmExactly what is wrong with this testing method at worst it provides a relative cooling performance assuming an controlled room temperature. It's not like it's the thunderbrid era were intel and amd don't use heat spreaders and you have to worry about cracking your cpu so the rough size of the cooper heating element provides a more consistent heating source then running some program to task a cpu. In the world of testing things if you just want to measure one thing you remove and simply till it's as bare bones as possible. When every result they have is clearly bullshit and goes against everything that every other review, personal anecdote, and user reviews, show. A hyper 212 is not better than an NH-D14. A Hyper 212, lapped(evo) or not, is not one of the top 5 best heatsinks in the world, and is definitely not the best heatsink in the world +/- 2*C. You must not be able to read table http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2692&page=5Coolermaster Hyper 212 Evo 15.9 Noctua NH-D14 14.5 Or you can't frame statements properly because it seems that no version of hyper 212 does better then nh-d14, you also don't get that they only use 1 thermal compound for all their test removing pre packaged thermal compound from the equation. They run the fans at highest voltage where it applies it doesn't deal with fan profiles etc. It's max performance possible out of the heatsink. If they are any level of smart they would also use torque screwdriver to when applicable secure all at same pressure, pressure and thermal compound strongly determine the effectiveness in quite a few coolers. Again where is the flaw in the method? If you're looking for an answer your method of deduction is based on what everyone is telling you? Not on a logical process? So in your world a testing platform in which heat induced is identical and reproducible. A measurement taken at the point of contact by proper equipment thermal compound which is used for all tests And fans set to 5v for low fan speed and 12v for high fan speed is not a valid process in arriving cooling performance? At best you can frame an argument on if you're using the same thermal compound why not use the same fan for all test but you run into issues in tests where the fan is integrated in the system. You confuse the information that is presented you perhaps take a look at a Fan and rate it based on dBa and CFM without taking a look at the graph between Static pressure and CFM which can be usually obtained from a manufacture, which gives a much better idea of what the fan can do for w.e application you wish. For frosty tech the only thing that is being measured is heat displacement with the fans running at 5v and at 12v, lowest profile and highest profile. And you can make judgments based on that. I mean do you even look at the dBa levels for fans running at max speed shits over 50 dBa most of the time this is a system in distress not what you run 24/7 (although i did sleep in a room with a server rack and a shit ton of delta fans you get surprising numb do the hum of really loud fans after awhile)it is displaying cooling potential nothing more nothing less. Which only answers a small part of the question of what heatsink is best for me? It falls into a similar vein as testing games and just posing the avg fps it doesn't quite paint a picture of what is occurring but it's still valid form of information gathering assuming testing is reproducible.
Hmm maybe I was a bit confusing in what I posted.
Look at the table you reference.
Hyper 212 Evo > Thermalright Silver Arrow.
Every benchmark out there other than this one, and common knowledge, will tell you the Silver Arrow = Noctua NH-D14, give or take a single degree (there are conflicting reports on which is better, basically 50/50, but they are both within a degree of each other and generally considered equal, although SA has quieter/better fans at stock).
Hence, Hyper 212 Evo > NH-D14.
I know that the table shows that the Silver Arrow is just an absolutely terrible cooler, but that's not true. Everyone online (just google it) will tell you it's definitely one of the top 5 coolers in the world, if not THE best.
Seriously, just look at the results. The hyper 212+ is only 3*C worse than an H100? Thermal paste and mounting pressure account for roughly 3*C... It's absolutely absurd results. You can find a million anecdotes online, and every other benchmark out there, showing the Hyper 212+ is certainly not amongst the best coolers in the world +/- 3*C.
Everyone knows Frostytech gets paid by manufacturers to bullshit reviews (A 5 HDT heatsink spire thermax is NOT going to be within 1*C of an H100, sorry).
Every bench out there uses the same heatsink for every test...
No, the problem is that it's well established by EVERY OTHER BENCHMARK that using a hot plate instead of an actual CPU is going to lead to bullshit results. Every single review and anecdote out there, says that sorry, the Hyper 212+ is actually a lot more than just 3*C behind the best coolers in the world. It's an absurd list that goes against literally every single bench out there.
Sorry, but your the only person out there who thinks the Silver Arrow is worse than the Hyper 212 EVO or that frostytech is a legitimate bench. Please, provide me with a single bench or personal anecdote anywhere that shows similar results to the tests.
And who gives a fuck what stock fans run on a heat plate. Apples to apples, identical fan configs. The things you talk about are standard procedure for any benchmark. The best bench imo is hardocp, running multiple remounts and using a milled CPU with a discrete temperature diode.
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On December 07 2012 14:37 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 14:30 Belial88 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 07 2012 13:24 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 11:49 Belial88 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hardware secrets isn't too hot of a benchmark either. First off, the problem is stock fans. A lot of CPU coolers seem a lot better than they really are, because they have shitty, loud, strong fans (Hyper 212+, Phanteks), or they do worse because they have a much milder fan optimized for low sound (NH-D14, Hyper 212 EVO). A good example of this is the H70. It's the worst closed loop cooler out there, but it sells and 'performs' better because at stock it includes 2 power, loud, shitty fans. You compare closed loop 120mm rad systems, and you'l find the H50 consistently outperforms the H70, but on benchmarks like at Hardwaresecrets, you wouldn't know that, because the H50 only comes with a single fan that's optimized to be quiet. Apples to apples man. Not a hard concept. You can also look at the benchmark and see it's full of crap, too. Your telling me a Hyper 212 EVO is significantly better than an Antec Kuhler 620, THE best 120mm closed loop cooler out there? And Oh, look, the Spire Thermax II, which Frostytech rates as THE BEST COOLER IN THE WORLD and better than Phanteks/NH-d14/Assassin/SA, is near the bottom of the barrel. Surely this can't be a proper site to trust if the Spire Thermax Eclipse doesn't come as #1 cooler?! Oh look at that, the NH-D14 is worse than the Kuhler 620, Megahalems, Hyper 212 Evo, and H70. Seriously dude. I'm don't care too much about benchmarks used, but when you keep citing benches that show the Hyper 212 EVO to beat a NH-D14, which is consistently ranked as in the top 5 air coolers in the world, it's a joke. Everyone knows hardwaresecrets is a joke. While your at it, please don't cite Tomshardware as your next bench. lol at hyper 212 evo 'comparative to a nh-d14'. Your clueless dude. A 4 HDT is not going to beat a an 8 heatpipe dual tower with a 140mm fan and 120mm fan at stock. The Hyper 212 Evo is just a lapped Hyper 212+ with a shittier fan, it only tests 1-2*C more than the Hyper 212+ at most. I really don't think you know what you are talking about when you think that basically a lapped Hyper 212+ is better than a 620 or NH-D14. Just google this shit, instead of picking the worst benchmarks sites out there on purpose to be a troll. Assassin. Best heatsink in the world apples to apples! Inarguably, in the top 5 heatsinks in the world - Thermalright Silver Arrow, NH-D14, Phanteks, at both stock and apples to apples. Apples to apples is a useful benchmark for coolers... but I generally prefer NOT using apples-to-apples benchmarks. If I buy a fan, most of the time I'm going to use the fans that come with it. Of course, for me personally I'm not going to give the thermal performance more than a look or two - I'm going to look straight at those acoustic benchmarks. Where, of course, apples-to-apples would be pretty meaningless. If you look at the benchmarks that really matter (to me), no one in the world is going to think a Phanteks is any good. But you wouldn't be able to tell that from apples to apples. There's a reason I use an HR-02 Macho. And trust me, it's not the cooling performance. HR-02, apples to apples, is THE best heatsink in the world when you have zero fans on, or only a single fan. I'm not sure what you mean. It outperforms high end coolers like NH-D14, Phanteks, Silver Arrow, and Assassin when there's zero fans, or with just a single fan. It's the best heatsink when it comes to cooling performance as quiet as possible. I'm not sure what you mean. Why did you pick the HR-02 if you aren't after cooling performance? Even with 2x fans it comes very close, it's not the top 5 in coolers but it's definitely in the top 10, and it's lower in price i believe, so it's actually a much better value than the NH-D14/Assassin/Phanteks/SA generally (except the $39 assassin on sale, or the others if they are on sale, obviously). I'm not sure what you mean. Apples to apples, it outperforms every cooler out there with zero fans or 1 fan. Considering you can buy Yate Loons for $4 each, one of the best fans out there for CFM/dba, unquestionably so at the budget price range, I don't think there's any reason not to consider apples to apples when looking at heatsinks. It'd be one thing if heatsinks were like $10-20, or if you were going for the hyper 21+ (and even then, I think its definitely worth it), but if your looking at things like the H50/H60/H70, or CM whatchamacallit, for $40, yea, definitely, consider apples to apples and using your own fans. Like why would you buy such a shitty cooler like the H70? At stock, it's 'decent' because it comes with 2 powerful fans. But an H50 is almost half the price, and if you slap 2 x $5 fans, you got a cooler that will outperform the H70 in any configuration. I don't think it would be wise to buy the H70 ever, considering an H50+Fans is much cheaper, and yate loons are better than the stock corsair fans anyways. That's why I think apples to apples is important. The point of apples to apples is to save money, not lose money. Instead of buying a $60 heatsink, buy a $40 heatsink plus $10 in 2 fans, for $70 cooling. And if your paying over $50 for a heatsink, you will definitely have the money to spend $10 on 2 extra fans to really make your heatsink shine. Phanteks is the best heatsink at stock, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your comment. It's the 2nd best heatsink in apples to apples, 2nd only to the assassin. I bought it because it's very, very quiet. And in the winter I can run near-fanless (the PSU has a fan, but no case fans or tower fan). Most people don't buy extra fans, particularly when you're buying under $50 for a heatsink, like me. I didn't. In the summer, my single Thermalright whatever is quiet enough. Many people use non-apples to apples ACOUSTIC benchmarks, which is the point I was making about the Phanteks. I don't think you got that point the first time.
Well... apples to apples is important to people like you, who care about sound, as well. If you care about sound, then your going to want to get a heatsink that runs best when low power fans are on it, or on single/zero fan configuration. For a person like you, an apples to apples comparison is perfect, in knowing that with no fans installed, the HR-02 performs the best.
Apples to apples comparisons isn't just for people looking for bleeding edge performance. It's for people to know okay, which heatsink performs best when I put an extra fan on it, when I use the 2 high quality fans I'm going to buy and put on it instead of the stock fans, or when, like you, they dont run any fans, or run 1-2 fans extremely quietly. Without an apples to apples test, you might think that the Silver Arrow might be the best heatsink, because on stock fans it's the quietest top end cooler, but with an apples to apples test, you'd see the HR-02 outperforms the SA with zero fans.
I haven't really discussed dba much at all, just cooling performance. For the most part, you can just buy quieter or run quieter fans to quiet the cpu down, although if you care about sound a lot, then yes, the design of the heatsink makes a significant impact on how loud it is regardless of the fans on it, and even with the same fans on it. Apples to apples the hr-02 is one of the quietest heatsinks I believe.
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On December 07 2012 13:57 lac29 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 11:50 Rachnar wrote:You could get an HD7850 1GB (i think it's like 160$? not sure though) which will play sc2 on ultra np and most games on high settings too no problemo rest of the build is still plenty good don't worry about it (but if do want an upgrade for photo design, etc.... you'd need a better cpu, the problem being, the i3 is good, but not the best, and i find it idiotic going from a 110$ cpu to a 180$ i5 for not that much gain, and the i7 costs a lot. So i'd advice an Xeon which cost a bit more then the i5 but a lot less then the i7 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117286 ,but even then after writing this much i'd still advice just upgrading your graphics card for gaming unless you don't really care about it) Does it make sense to just wait maybe until summer to buy an i7 (maybe instead of buying a new gfx card now)?
First of all, to confirm, run those programs with CPU-Z / GPU-Z running in the background and confirm it's the CPU or GPU (or neither?) that's heavily loaded when they're lagging. If what's slow is certain visualization using the GPU, you need a workstation GPU for that, except that those are bad for gaming. Can't win either way.
Whatever you do, don't buy an i7, unless it's cheaper. The Xeon E3-1230V2 (and higher, but not lower) models are equivalent to Ivy Bridge Core i7s, and you can see that the prices for those socket 1155 Xeons are generally lower. If it's the CPU being maxed out, upgrade to one of the Xeons rather than an i7. It's not like you can overclock a i7-3770k on that motherboard anyway.
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Explain, then, what was wrong with the benchmarks from the other sources I linked? Since one of us has posted multiple links, and one of us has stated things as fact with no evidence, well, yeah. Also, you're the one who brought up the 212 Evo. Since then, I've pointed to other people who had favorable results with it.
You're the person who made specific claims against the veracity of reviews, with no links at all. At no point did I say X is certainly better than Y. I showed the links I've drawn conclusions from. Until I've bought it and tested it in an environment I don't have available, that's all I can do.
If the reviews I've been finding are bad, I'd LOVE to be proven wrong. Ask the people who actually post links, I don't have a problem with being wrong. Just with people who claim I'm wrong and can't show me why.
Fact: You made a claim based on a review that looks fishy (anybody who reviews in a significantly unstable ambient for cooling automatically raises flags) and have yet to refute any evidence to the contrary. The other reviews I've found all agree with what I originally found.
Oh, and I have yet to see any evidence for your allegation that frosty takes money for reviews. I'd also love to see that, because if it's actually true, and not just some delusion, I'd then not bother with them any more.
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5930 Posts
I still don't see what's wrong with that Frostytech review.
The Hyper 212 Evo performs slightly better than the Silver Arrow when its PWM fan is running at full load (2000RPM jesus christ) but the Silver Arrow is around 4 whole decibels quieter, which is very significant since decibels is a logarithmic unit. They're both using their stock configurations, which is fair since most people will use the included fan kits since replacing stock fans with good fans is typically fairly expensive. And if your CPU cooler comes with Noctua P12s or Thermalright TY-140s, why would you replace them? They're quiet, they run at sensible RPMs, I believe they undervolt fairly well, and they perform good enough for just about all sensible overclocks.
So really, the performance of the Silver Arrow is still very impressive because of how much noise it actually makes. And a lot of people do actually care about noise, its the sole reason why people bought Silverstone's rotated motherboard concept by the bucketload for their Crossfire/SLI systems. The reason is not so much performance because it isn't really that good at CPU cooling and raw GPU cooling performance. Its because it can cool tightly packed GPUs with minimal noise.
If people can read a review and understand the full picture without trying to be disingenuous, no one would say that the Silver Arrow is a worse CPU cooler. Again, the temperatures are basically the same but the Silver Arrow is a full 4 whole decibels quieter. Anyone with a brain would know what this means: under stock configurations, the stock Silver Arrow matches performance with the stock Hyper 212 Evo but is significantly quieter. Ergo its a much better performing CPU cooler, which is what everyone expects.
I recently bought a Hyper 212 Evo for a friend's desktop. It performs similarly to my Noctua U12P, which says good things about the Hyper 212 Evo, but when the processor gets hot, the noise is utterly unbearable because the stock 2000RPM fan is not only loud but has a dreadful sound character. The TY-140s packaged with the Silver Arrow are nowhere near as bad, they're probably one of the best general purpose fans on the market.
So for stock configurations (which is what most people are going to use), the Silver Arrow is the obvious winner to anyone who understands the full picture. Apparently its 1-2 degrees worse but its 4 decibels better? I'm taking the 4 decibels thanks. Nevermind the fact that the sound character of any 120mm fan running above ~1200RPM is always terrible and unbearable for any normal person as that's when you stop hearing airflow and start hearing mechanical parts move.
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I'm still not sure what his exact problem with it is either, because so far it's all vague "you must be trolling" and "Everyone knows", with no sources at all.
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Cooling performance is pretty overrated unless you measure passively (or in some cases with the same fan). And Everest performs best in that regard followed by HR02.
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Well, with the same fan, sometimes. Passive if that's how you want to run it.
Passive tests can have totally different results than with fans, so they're only good if you're interested in passive. With the same fan can give you a "true" best performance result for coolers, but only for consumers who use fans with identical amount of airflow and static pressure.
If you're not going to run every cooler with X fan, or no fan, you might as well only test stock configurations. Otherwise, you're just creating artificial variables.
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Hey guys,
I'm building my first computer on a (supposedly) college sized budget. My problem is, I set out to build a relatively cheap computer, and ended up with a 1k+ build, so I'm looking to trim some fat off the build.
Keeping in mind, this is my first build, there may be fundamental flaws, and some parts may not even be compatible. Please lay off the flame until I respond ignorantly and/or pis you off.
What I'm looking at (no parts have been ordered yet):
CPU: i5 3570k
MoBo: Asus P8Z77-V LK ATX LGA1155
Memory: G-Skill Ripjaw X-Series (4x4GB)
Storage: Corsair Force Series 3 2.5" 60GB SSD
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 6 GB/s
Video Card: GIGABYTE GV-N66TOC-2GD GeForce GTX 660 Ti 2GB 192-bit
PSU: Rosewill Green 630W
Case: NZXT Full Tower, Black/Orange ATX
Thanks in advance.
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On December 08 2012 03:28 diclKrunk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey guys,
I'm building my first computer on a (supposedly) college sized budget. My problem is, I set out to build a relatively cheap computer, and ended up with a 1k+ build, so I'm looking to trim some fat off the build.
Keeping in mind, this is my first build, there may be fundamental flaws, and some parts may not even be compatible. Please lay off the flame until I respond ignorantly and/or pis you off.
What I'm looking at (no parts have been ordered yet):
CPU: i5 3570k
MoBo: Asus P8Z77-V LK ATX LGA1155
Memory: G-Skill Ripjaw X-Series (4x4GB)
Storage: Corsair Force Series 3 2.5" 60GB SSD
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 6 GB/s
Video Card: GIGABYTE GV-N66TOC-2GD GeForce GTX 660 Ti 2GB 192-bit
PSU: Rosewill Green 630W
Case: NZXT Full Tower, Black/Orange ATX
Thanks in advance.
Link to products / pricing, the definition of cheap, and the purpose of the computer would be useful unless you want us to play a stupid guessing game.
You're missing an aftermarket heatsink since I'm guessing you are overclocking.
What the fuck is G-Skill RIpjawsX 4x4gb? 1333MHz cas8? 1333MHz cas9? 1600MHz cas8? 1600MHz cas9? 1866MHz cas9? 2133 cas9? 1.5v? 1.65v? 1.35v? 1.25v?
P8Z77-V LK isn't a good choice unless you're paying close to $100.
Corsair Force 3 is also not good unless you are getting it for like $60.
Why pick a full tower case (I assume its a Phantom 001 and not a 810 or 820...) if you want to be cheap?
Why pick a GTX 660 Ti which is $300 if you want to be cheap...?
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Jesus, a simple google search of ANYTHING would show that site is complete crap.
Hyper 212 EVO does NOT outperform the SA on stock vs stock. Hyper 212 EVO is a hyper 212+ with a lapped base and a weaker fan (than the hyper 212+).
People looking for heatsinks in the Silver Arrow/NH-D14/Assassin/Phanteks price range are most of the time going to buy their own fans. That's why apples to apples is more important than stock comparisons, which say nothing. Just because the manufacturer paired a shitty fan that blasts a lot of air, does not mean the heatsink is better. There are plenty of heatsinks you can buy that are superior coolers with maybe cheaper fans, to drop the price, to which you pair good fans on to make it perform better than higher priced coolers.
Like I've brought up - the H70 is the worst closed loop cooler (disregaring like the H40 or coolit/intel/amd's lclc). It would be a terrible decision to buy the H70 just because it performs better than the H50/H60/H70 at stock, because it only does so because it comes with 2, powerful fans, whereas the H50/H60 only come with a single, weaker fan. Buy the H50, buy 2 x Yate Loons that are much better than corsair fans, and you got a heatsink that outperforms the H70 and costs significantly less.
Hyper 212 Evo, no matter what fan configuration you have it on, is not going to come close to the Silver Arrow...
Seriuosly, just google it...
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/276040-29-which-cooler
Even people at TH saying Frostytech is a joke. That's saying something.
Fact: You made a claim based on a review that looks fishy (anybody who reviews in a significantly unstable ambient for cooling automatically raises flags) and have yet to refute any evidence to the contrary. The other reviews I've found all agree with what I originally found.
Because you think a benchmark that shows the Evo > Silver Arrow and other ridiculous results is reliable, and it's not.
The problem with frostytech's heat plate is that in the real world, a processor is going to produce much more heat than a 150tdp plate. Many, many heatsinks perform 'better' when on idle or worse on idle relatively, everyone knows idle temps don't mean shit. Otherwise you could say that custom water loops are the worst cooling kits in the world, when in reality that isn't true. Plenty of coolers also don't show their true potential even on stock load. You need overclocked loads / hot load to show true heatsink performance, the NH-D14 doesnt appear to be the top 5 cooler in the world until your comparing overclocked load temps on a quadcore.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2077201
Really. Just google. TechReport also lists every benchmark for an item, very simple way to find lots of reviews/benches of something. Here you go:
http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/alpenfoehn_k_2_cpu_cooler_revisited,10.html
K2 is within 1*C of the SA, NH-D14, Phanteks. Obviously results will differ but basically these 4 coolers are definitely the top 4 coolers in the world, and unarguably the 4 best. This site says the SA is best and K2 is second best. And the hyper 212 is like 30*C behind.
http://www.eteknix.com/reviews/cooling/alpenfohn-k2-dual-tower-cpu-cooler-review/8/
K2 is in the top 4 coolers in the world with just its stock fans (k2 comes with shitty fans, with equal fans its the best)
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/deepcool-assassin_5.html#sect1
Assassin is just barely behind Phanteks, which xbit lists as the best cooler in the world
Also, as the Hyper 212 EVO is HDT, it means that on lower clocks/idle, it's going to perform better. So when your doing a terrible heatplate test, for example, the HDT design of the Hyper 212 EVO is going to make it appear better than it really is. You put it on an overclocked chip that runs hot, the Evo and HDT design in general does not perform well at all.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/LGA-2011-i7-3960X-Air-Overclocking,3130-17.html
TH (i know, bad site), shows evo is significantly behind.
http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cases_cooling/coolermaster_hyper_212_evo_review/4
Almost 20*C worse than the Silver Arrow, which frosytech said was worse than the evo
The evo is just a lapped hyper 212+ with a weaker fan. Are you going to tell me that if I lap my hyper 212+, it will perform comparably to my nh-d14 and it'll outperform my H50?
In my own results, I've found the Hyper 212 is significantly behind the H50, which are both significantly behind the NH-D14.
It's not just about the fans Wom. Heatsink design has a lot to do with sound, but the majority of sound is coming from what fans are on the heatsink. You put some good running, quiet fans on a solid heatsink, that's a better deal than using stock fans. Hyper 212 EVO with a high quality fan on it, is not going to come anywhere close to the Silver Arrow/k2, etc in performance.
I'm still not sure what his exact problem with it is either, because so far it's all vague "you must be trolling" and "Everyone knows", with no sources at all.
Because you obviously dont know what your talking about. You obviously know more about computers than me when it comes to high end, pricy things, but when it comes to heatsinks your wrong, and your speaking from bad benchmark review sites instead of actual research or owning the heatsinks. i've actually owned the heatsinks, you haven't.
Just google. Is the Hyper 212 Evo better than the Silver Arrow? Look up Logisys Assassin/Alpenfohn K2 performance. You'll see there's a huge difference.
Cooling performance is pretty overrated unless you measure passively (or in some cases with the same fan). And Everest performs best in that regard followed by HR02.
I strongly disagree, and I've benched a couple heatsinks myself. With identical fan set-ups, you'll find a huge difference between heatsinks. A Nh-D14/Phanteks/SA/K2 class dual tower heatsink is going to outperform something like a Hyper 212 Evo by almost 10*C no matter what fans your comparing. The H50 will outperform the 212 a good 3-6*C with identical fan configs.
Look at this Jingle:
http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/cooler_master_hyper_212_evo_cpu_cooler_review,13.html
Hyper 212 Evo 10*C worse than K2/Assassin/NH-D14/Silver Arrow!
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/coolermaster-hyper-212-evo_5.html#sect1
vs
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/deepcool-assassin_5.html#sect1
It's not hard to google this. I think your just trolling, I know your pretty smart when it comes to this stuff. You can't seriously think that the Evo with 4HDT is anywhere comparable to a dual tower with 8 heatpipes on a flat base cooler. Every single review out there shows the K2/Assassin/SA/NH-D14/Phanteks all in the same league, and that all are within 1*C of eachother, ie margin of error. They also all show the Evo/212 is nowhere near the same level.
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On December 08 2012 02:41 JingleHell wrote:
Well, with the same fan, sometimes. Passive if that's how you want to run it.
Passive tests can have totally different results than with fans, so they're only good if you're interested in passive. With the same fan can give you a "true" best performance result for coolers, but only for consumers who use fans with identical amount of airflow and static pressure.
If you're not going to run every cooler with X fan, or no fan, you might as well only test stock configurations. Otherwise, you're just creating artificial variables.
No, you should test every heatsink using the same fans.
It's pretty simple - when comparing things, you should rule out all other variables, and have them all constant, so you can compare the variable in question, the heatsink itself. Anyone spending $40+ on cooling/heatsinks is going to have extra fans laying around to make that single fan heatsink into push/pull, or spend $10 to make their heatsink go from a crap heatsink, to awesome. $10 on a Hyper 212 will make it go from a loud okay cooler, to a relatively awesome cooler with 2 x yate loons.
Testing stock configurations is absolutely worthless, it just tells you which heatsink comes with the more powerful fans. It doesnt even tell you how loud or quiet those fans are. Like I said, the h70 is a piece of shit lclc that comes with 2 loud, powerful fans, that performs worse than the H50 which only comes with a single weak fan. Buy the H50, get 2 fans, perform quieter and better than the H70 for much cheaper. That's why apples to apples is important.
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Sorry, had it backwards. The Hyper 212 Evo has a better fan than the Hyper 212+.
It's not a better cool at all than the Hyper 212+, the Evo is literally just a lapped 212+ with a slightly better fan, resulting in 1-3*C temperature improvement. Just lap your own Hyper 212+, and get 2 x yate loons for the same price of going from 212+ to Evo (~$10) and it's the same thing. A hyer 212+, or Evo, or whatever, will never perform anywhere close to an Nh-D14 or Silver Arrow or K2/Assassin or H50 or Megahalems or Ven-x or whatever the fuck.
Just google reviews on the Hyper 212+. You'll see even if you give it 3*C, it will never come close to any of the higher end coolers. It's absurd that you think with the right fans and lapped base a Hyper 212+ basically, will beat a Silver Arrow or is within 1*C of the NH-D14/K2-assassin/Phanteks/etc.
google.com/isthehyper212+reallybetterthananythingabove$50inpureperformance
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A lot of people use the stock fans though, particularly until they develop problems. The product you buy is the heatsink plus all included accessories including fans, so that's what is usually tested.
Proper testing tells how loud the stock configuration is... hopefully with a delta T vs. temperature graph for each cooler or at least a few data points. Hopefully with noise recordings too.
Obviously more data isn't bad, so additional testing with equivalent fans is also useful, but maybe less useful. Any results to show for the sleeve-bearing cheap Yates vs. stock fans? How much improvement do you really get? What about fan splitters, maybe a motherboard that only does PWM control? etc.
In the real world, most people aren't interested in processors that consume up to 150W when overclocked. That's probably close to 3x stock i5-3570k on full CPU load and no IGP load, over 2x compared to stock i7-3770k. You're not going to triple heat output by overclocking on air. If we're talking about builds in this thread, those 150W or overclocked i7-990x / whatever loads are not that relevant. That said, those that are interested in 150W+ are obviously the target market for the high-end heatsinks.
Test results from reviewers are obviously imprecise measures of performance because they only test one sample: heatsink performance is confounded with manufacturing variance, ambient temperature difference, fan mounting (particularly with regards to character of noise), base mounting / TIM factors particularly if for different sockets, distribution of thermal load (assuming you're interested in performance for your CPU, which may generate heat in different locations and amounts as the tested heat source), etc. You can't separate these factors and interactions with one sample. edit: and as noted by semantics below, the mounting / TIM is the biggest deal there, though of course that interacts with the manufacturing variance in base shape.
So I wouldn't trust anybody's numbers. Or more precisely, you treat the data as an estimate with high uncertainty. Any comparison of two coolers on any site including frostytech is in question, so if you've done all the research, then sure.
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You can easily swing a test 6c+ just off what thermal compound is used and mounting pressure. Quite a few TIMs rely of good pressure and more pressure helps when poorly leveled heat-spreaders on cpu's/coolers. The only rule real to testing and information is if it is reproducible.
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On December 08 2012 04:56 semantics wrote:
You can easily swing a test 6c+ just off what thermal compound is used and mounting pressure. Quite a few TIMs rely of good pressure and more pressure helps when poorly leveled heat-spreaders on cpu's/coolers. The only rule real to testing and information is if it is reproducible.
Yes but that's a matter of doing something correctly or not. I could mount the Nh-D14 just wrong and use shit thermal compound and claim it's worse, but if you secure it correctly, and use the same TIM and standard TIM spreading procedure, you should be able to rule them out as variables.
Also, a proper benchmark will test a heatsink with at least 5-10 re-mounts.
You are right though, I've seen benches before (skinnee labs? forgot who did it exactly) showing the relative performance of TIMs was dependent on how strong the heatsink mounted.
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On December 08 2012 04:52 Myrmidon wrote:
A lot of people use the stock fans though, particularly until they develop problems. The product you buy is the heatsink plus all included accessories including fans, so that's what is usually tested.
Proper testing tells how loud the stock configuration is... hopefully with a delta T vs. temperature graph for each cooler or at least a few data points. Hopefully with noise recordings too.
Obviously more data isn't bad, so additional testing with equivalent fans is also useful, but maybe less useful. Any results to show for the sleeve-bearing cheap Yates vs. stock fans? How much improvement do you really get? What about fan splitters, maybe a motherboard that only does PWM control? etc.
In the real world, most people aren't interested in processors that consume up to 150W when overclocked. That's probably close to 3x stock i5-3570k on full CPU load and no IGP load, over 2x compared to stock i7-3770k. You're not going to triple heat output by overclocking on air. If we're talking about builds in this thread, those 150W or overclocked i7-990x / whatever loads are not that relevant. That said, those that are interested in 150W+ are obviously the target market for the high-end heatsinks.
Test results from reviewers are obviously imprecise measures of performance because they only test one sample: heatsink performance is confounded with manufacturing variance, ambient temperature difference, fan mounting (particularly with regards to character of noise), base mounting / TIM factors particularly if for different sockets, distribution of thermal load (assuming you're interested in performance for your CPU, which may generate heat in different locations and amounts as the tested heat source), etc. You can't separate these factors and interactions with one sample. edit: and as noted by semantics below, the mounting / TIM is the biggest deal there, though of course that interacts with the manufacturing variance in base shape.
So I wouldn't trust anybody's numbers. Or more precisely, you treat the data as an estimate with high uncertainty. Any comparison of two coolers on any site including frostytech is in question, so if you've done all the research, then sure.
I think it depends. If you buy an NH-D14 class cooler, you might stay with stock simply because you don't need more cooling performance.
But 'a lot of people' (i can use weasel words too) replace the fans as well, and especially with tower designs you have a lot of people running push/pull, getting extra fans or replacing the fans altogether. It's better to just buy 2 yate loons for push/pull, and then use the stock fan as a case fan.
In the real world, people don't need aftermarket heatsinks because they aren't overclocking or not overclocking much, and even then, most people will do just fine with a stock hyper 212+ and that's the end of it. For those looking for more performance or overclock, or running a hot chip, your definitely going to be interested in apples to apples configuration, sound if that's your thing, and how a heatsink performs with better fans or with identical fans.
http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp
Seems to me that just even 4ghz on an i5-2500k is going close to 150W, and that's quite a conservative overclock. Get an IB-i5 or stronger, a phenom ii, an FX, or i5 on a more standard overclock, and your definitely pushing past 160.
There are definitely tons of factors involved with heatsink performance, but you can get a relative idea of a heatsink's performance compared to other popular heatsinks based on looking at tons of reviews by trustworthy sites (no tomshardware, no frostytech, basically, just avoid those 2 shitty sites and your good) and user anecdotes by reliable users (OCN, Anandtech forums, etc). A Logisys Assassin may or may not be the best cooler in the world, but it's going to definitely be in the top 5, and within 1*C of whatever the best cooler in the world is.
Every benchmark out there shows the K2/assassin within 1*C of the SA, Nh-d14, Phanteks, they are all the top 4 coolers. They also show that the Hyper 212+/Evo is generally behind a good 10*C on a full load on an intel chip, ie signifincantly behind in performance. Not, as the frosytech review shows, withn 1*C of the best air coolers in the world, and better than the Silver Arrow.
I don't trust any one single site (except hardocp, they tend to be on the money, but not too many reviews by them), but getting the big picture by looking at many sites, you should see a trend. Every single review out there shows the SA/k2/nhd-14/phanteks as within top 4, and hyper 212+/evo as 10*C worse in performance, all but frostytech. You can probably rule out that frostytech is crap, especially when everyone says so, and everything on their list is so far from every other reviewed result out there.
Tim is responsible for maybe 1-3*C at most, and mounting is a matter of doing it correctly. There are plenty of TIM benches out there, showing the differences between different TIM spread levels and methods, showing at worst you have like 3*C for massively too much/too little paste. As long as you use consistent TIM for every test and consistent spread, and you test multiple times, you have good results. You need to remount the cooler multiple times for accurate tests, hence why you aren't going for absolute results, you look for relative results on many different benches.
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EPT
