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On October 22 2010 19:15 broke wrote:
What's the difference between any mouse in this thread, and a decade old ball mouse, for playing an RTS?
To use a standard 400 dpi mouse on an RTS and have any kind of responsiveness you need to set the sensitivity really high. This means that you're going to skip 3-4 pixels every time you move your cursor -- so you can only 'hit' 1 out of every 20 or so pixels that are on the screen. High dpi enables you to have high sensitivity and 1:1 movement with no skipped pixels. This was less of an issue in BW where the resolution was constrained to 640x480. On larger resolutions skipping is going to be much more noticeable. When you switch to a high dpi mouse you realize how much more smooth it makes your movements.
Another factor is that regular optical mice are quite poor at responding to sudden acceleration and fast movement. They lose a lot of performance if they are moved too quickly. You can test this by rapidly sliding your mouse to the right, lifting it, and returning it to the same spot. If you move fast enough, you will see that your mouse fails completely in tracking your movement -- the cursor will bounce around randomly and won't move to the right. This is a problem for low quality optical mice -- not sure if it's relevant for ball mice ?
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Razer Naga. http://corpserun.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/razernaga-jpg-thumb-640xauto-8674.png
I have the 4 assigned as shift, so I can queue things up using only two fingers from my left hand (i. e. hold down 4 with my right thumb, press B and then E with my left fingers to build pylons). Also I can hold down the shift on my keyboard and press the 3 on the mouse to add units to my 3rd control group (I keep my army on 3). It's nice to be able to shift-add things to control groups by pressing the numbers on the mouse rather than reaching all the way across your keyboard with your left fingers to numbers such as 8, 9, or 0.
I have small hands.
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On June 16 2010 19:05 Sueco wrote:Poll: Steelseries Kinzu or Microsoft Intellimouse 3.0?Microsoft Intellimouse 3.0 (558) 55% Steelseries Kinzu (454) 45% 1012 total votes Your vote: Steelseries Kinzu or Microsoft Intellimouse 3.0? (Vote): Steelseries Kinzu
(Vote): Microsoft Intellimouse 3.0
I'm planning to upgrade my old cheapo wireless mouse for the Starcraft 2 launch. I must say I've grown quite accustomed to its small size, light weight and liberating lack of cord but hell, if a gaming-grade mouse can help me improve my control... My research so far has revealed contradicting evidence. Some people argue that you just have to play with what you like, and that high-dpi hardware is only truly useful in FPS games. Others swear by their high-tech mice. I'm on a limited budged so I probably won't be getting the brag gear Razer just announced, so I'm looking more for functionality. Some people recommended the salmosa or the microsoft intellimouse, but I haven't seen the final word on it. I'm asking then TLers, in your infinite wisdom, is a gaming mouse a worthwhile investment and if so, what mouse gives you most bang for your buck? EDIT: After a lot of great feedback, I've narrowed it down to the Steelseries Kinzu or the Intellimouse 3.0 Both have the similar price, reputation and the light, claw-grip ergonomics I prefer. Fight!
The intelli does NOT have "light, claw-grip ergonomics", it's one of the most palm-grip friendly mice on the market, and really set a standard for palm-grip design. That's the reason I switched out my intelli3.0 for a deathadder; the exact same design, except the deathadder is a bit smaller and overall more advanced.
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I've been using the Razer Orochi that i got as a gift a while back in wired mode. Without Batteries in it, and wired to my keyboard, it is actually a touch lighter than the Abyssus, as well as more well suited for a claw-grip. I actually like it more than my Abyssus, and find i preform better with it.
+ Show Spoiler +
It is also a rather attractive mouse as well!
^_^
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I'm a big fan of the death adder as I was used to the intellimouse, which was nice and big. death adder is very precise, comfortable, and looks thoroughly b'dass. Plus, I love that razer sponsored king of the beta tournament...
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I have been using a DeathAdder since the launch of Starcraft II, but I can't recommend it for people who use a fingertip grip. I just received my Abyssus (set to 1800dpi on a 1080p monitor) and I'm loving it. The Kinzu is a similar mouse, and I'd honestly recommend either for small-handed fingertip or claw grip players.
With the DeathAdder and small hands, a fingertip grip causes the mouse to be turned inward towards the keyboard. It puts excess pressure on the right pinkie / ring finger, which starts to wear on you if you're grinding on the ladder or doing extended practice sessions.
With the Abyssus, the mouse is held centered when gripped with the side fingers, and the lighter weight puts less strain on the grasping fingers. In addition it feels more responsive because the lighter weight allows it to glide more easily... especially important with the fingertip grip as you don't have your palm to push the mouse forward.
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I've got the DeathAdder and it's a perfect fit for my hands. Best mouse I've owned by far.
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On October 23 2010 15:04 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 19:15 broke wrote:
What's the difference between any mouse in this thread, and a decade old ball mouse, for playing an RTS? To use a standard 400 dpi mouse on an RTS and have any kind of responsiveness you need to set the sensitivity really high. This means that you're going to skip 3-4 pixels every time you move your cursor -- so you can only 'hit' 1 out of every 20 or so pixels that are on the screen. High dpi enables you to have high sensitivity and 1:1 movement with no skipped pixels. This was less of an issue in BW where the resolution was constrained to 640x480. On larger resolutions skipping is going to be much more noticeable. When you switch to a high dpi mouse you realize how much more smooth it makes your movements.
While this is correct, it's only correct up to a point. If you're striving for that 1:1 accuracy, you have to restrict yourself to your resolution. Using a 2000 DPI mouse in 1024x768 hurts you in the same way that using a 400dpi mouse hurts you in 1600x900.
Another factor is that regular optical mice are quite poor at responding to sudden acceleration and fast movement. They lose a lot of performance if they are moved too quickly. You can test this by rapidly sliding your mouse to the right, lifting it, and returning it to the same spot. If you move fast enough, you will see that your mouse fails completely in tracking your movement -- the cursor will bounce around randomly and won't move to the right. This is a problem for low quality optical mice -- not sure if it's relevant for ball mice ?
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but this is just completely false. Optical mice are FAR better about acceleration and max speed, and have always been so. Newer laser mice are getting much better, but to say that they're at the level of optical is just plain wrong. The good news is that the faults in acceleration/max speed on laser mice will only impact you at lower sensitivities - something that you shouldn't be using in an RTS to begin with.
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679 <- while it hasn't been updated in a few years, ESR is still the authority on hardware performance
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Razers are good but, the mouse market in general is full of gimmicks. Most of the BW pros use regular logitechs, as long as the tracking is good and it has decent dpi you're fine. It should also fit comfortably in the hand. For rts, smaller mice are usually preffered.
Even the sc2 pros generally don't use over-the-top mice. Yuo don't need to spend 60+ on a good mouse. Sc2 only requires a 2 button mouse anyway. These "gaming" mice you see are pointless. I laugh when people spend tons of money on a razer and still suck at their games. I saw a gsl video where a WeMadeFoxx was using a shiny razer and had like 500 apm but still couldnt make it past the prelims. It's almost like buying drum equipment. They tell you their product makes you faster and more efficient but they're really just ripping you off.
Just use whats comfortable, has solid tracking, and at least 800 dpi imo. The only reason ud want high dpi though is so you can set the windows and ingame sensiticvity to 50/50 and still get high speed, but for sc2 1000-1200 dpi tops is needed. for FPS, the intellimouse is great because it has low dpi and a larger base.
Keyboards are a different story however. Though they dont make too much difference, you may want to spend 100+ on cherry mx browns. MEchanical keyboards are more tactile and easier to press, and theyll last you a few years, so the money is actually worht it.
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@ ThE_ShiZ
I think you make a good point, but you're still putting up a double standard. See, I figure that the only reason we see more gimmicky mouses than keyboards is just because all of those "gaming accessory" companies tend to focus on mice first and then keyboards after they're establish (case in point: Razer). Once all companies start getting in on it, we're sure to see stuff going in multiple directions along with more "gimmicky" products. (Note, though, that gaming products are usually at a higher quality level than regular ones. Buying one of the cheapest non-gamer products is always a roll of the dice while buying one of the cheaper gamer products is at least somewhat more reliable.)
Besides, once you add in personal opinion, a lot of those mice you see as gimmicks become some of the best out there. I've seen posts in this thread and others where someone will swear for each one of the Razer mice, and I know they're telling the truth by saying it's the best for them because it's such an opinion-dependent thing. After all, think of the range of mouse designs versus keyboard designs. At the very least, the average gamer knows of way more mouse designs than keyboard designs, which backs up my earlier point of just how much there is in terms of quantity of each of these products.
I will agree, though, that SC2 is one of the only games in the pro-circuit that emphasizes keyboard quality over mouse quality. (Perhaps this is another reason for mouse proliferation: FPS games started out way bigger, especially with Counter Strike?)
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something i dont get: why is it kind of a consensus that "the majority of rts players prefers small mice"? lightweight, i agree, but why small? there are lots of palm grippers out there and i personally dont think fingertip or claw grip are "inherently superior" to a palm grip in rts games. grubby for example is a palm gripper and was a top top wc3 pro. he surely practiced at least 8 hours a day on average, so fatigue when mass gaming with a palm grip mouse certainly is no necessity.
so i personally think it doesnt make sense for a palm gripper to switch to some other grip for sc2/any rts, just because there´s this meme that these are to be preferred for this purpose. imho using a grip and therefore a mouseshape that feels comfortable is the most important thing of all when deciding about which mouse to buy. ofc the candidate pool should only consist of mice with somewhat solid sensors in the first place, but once this requirement is met, technical gimmicks or the preferences of other guys on the net are completely irrelevant. its about what u feel comfortable with.
the reason for this rant is that i am a palm gripper that just tried out smaller claw/fingertip mice because of all the talk about how these "are to be preferred for rts" and it was a horrible experience for me. my precision went down and my hands started hurting much earlier. so i returned the g9x i had tried out to the shop and gave back my friend his salmosa and went for a nice palm grip mouse and im very very happy with it.
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Buying one of the cheapest non-gamer products is always a roll of the dice while buying one of the cheaper gamer products is at least somewhat more reliable
This is true, but my point is that most of the higher-level ones don't grant any special benefits, at least not for sc2. For WoW I can see if you want to set like 5+ mouse macros, and maybe even for fps, but even then a quality gamer doesn't really benefit from these mice. The question is what gaming mouse is best for sc2, and while that is an opinion, there are things we can look at like tracking quality, durability, size/comfort, dpi, and affordability. In terms of sc2, the best players tend to stray away from overpriced bs, because a 1600 dpi razer with 4 extra buttons and a light-up wheel is just not cost-effective, compared to a logitech or microsoft you can buy for a fraction of the price that does the same exact job.
And yeah, I still think they keyboards are quite gimmicky as well, but the more expensive keyboards tend to at least have some sort of improvement to show for their price, like actuation and feel, which aren't as important for mice when playing RTS but Flash slams people with like a 10 year old samsung board so even then it probably doesnt matter much. sc2 players are just slamming the keys anyway.
I think the most important thing about keyboards is button placement.
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@Black Gun
I'm not saying the mouse has to be tiny with claw grip, i tend to float between claw and palm when i play. I'm just saying the mouse probably shouldn't be as big as the intellimouse. I've tried it for sc2 and the size limits quick finger control. I tend to flick my mouse with my wrist/fingers and unless you have large hands you're going to be limited to full arm motions, which is fine for fps but not so much for rts. I just feel encumbered by large mice
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On October 24 2010 04:34 ThE_ShiZ wrote:
@Black Gun
I'm not saying the mouse has to be tiny with claw grip, i tend to float between claw and palm when i play. I'm just saying the mouse probably shouldn't be as big as the intellimouse. I've tried it for sc2 and the size limits quick finger control. I tend to flick my mouse with my wrist/fingers and unless you have large hands you're going to be limited to full arm motions, which is fine for fps but not so much for rts. I just feel encumbered by large mice
see, so this means U dont feel comfortable with mice above a size of X. why do u then say "mice of size greater than X are not good for rts" instead of "mice of size greater than X are not good for rts FOR ME"?
im just sick of this generalizing of personal mouse preferences. thats the same shit as when ppl say that dpi doesnt matter at all for sc2 which simply isnt true. depending on the screen resolution and the preferred sensitivy, a dpi of over 1.5k can very easily be needed in sc2. i use a 1920x1080 resolution in sc2. ppl who would suggest me a 3.0 or a LMO simply dont know what they are talking about.
dpi always has to be seen in combination with the used screen resolution. bw with its 640x480 had such a low res that pretty much any mouse had high enough dpi for it. similarly, cs is played in a rather small resolution by todays standards and in fps games there are lots of low sens games which therefore also dont need a high dpi. but instead of saying this, u hear generalized stuff like "no mouse needs more than 800 dpi, its just expensive gimmicks". true, more than 3k dpi are probably unneeded for 99.99% of circumstances and gamers, but there are various situations where something like 800 dpi wont cut it anymore today.
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intelli 3.0, what i find funny is i bought my first laser mouse (intelli 3.0) back in like early-mid 2001 with a new computer i bought and another one in about 2003 (which i still use to this day, the paint i gone from the left clicker) works perfect but what's funny is it's the only mouse i have ever liked and used constantly for over 9 years and i just found out about 2-3 years ago it's ginormious in the "pro" gaming league all over WC3, SC, CS etc. and they stopped production for awhile and all this.. anyways i have used a MX300,310 and 510 and thought they were all awful mouses and i will never try another logitech, same with their headsets and keyboards i find their products to be incredibly overrated and not that great.
I will continue to use the intelli for the next 10 years or when i can't find them, i have 3 in a box sealed in my closet as back ups which i bought after hearing they went out of production then came back but judging by this 3.0 i have now, that i have had for 8 years and still works perfectly fine these should do me till the day i die or there is no longer a use for a mouse.
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On October 24 2010 02:24 ThE_ShiZ wrote:
Razers are good but, the mouse market in general is full of gimmicks. Most of the BW pros use regular logitechs, as long as the tracking is good and it has decent dpi you're fine. It should also fit comfortably in the hand. For rts, smaller mice are usually preffered.
Even the sc2 pros generally don't use over-the-top mice. Yuo don't need to spend 60+ on a good mouse. Sc2 only requires a 2 button mouse anyway. These "gaming" mice you see are pointless. I laugh when people spend tons of money on a razer and still suck at their games. I saw a gsl video where a WeMadeFoxx was using a shiny razer and had like 500 apm but still couldnt make it past the prelims. It's almost like buying drum equipment. They tell you their product makes you faster and more efficient but they're really just ripping you off.
Just use whats comfortable, has solid tracking, and at least 800 dpi imo. The only reason ud want high dpi though is so you can set the windows and ingame sensiticvity to 50/50 and still get high speed, but for sc2 1000-1200 dpi tops is needed. for FPS, the intellimouse is great because it has low dpi and a larger base.
Keyboards are a different story however. Though they dont make too much difference, you may want to spend 100+ on cherry mx browns. MEchanical keyboards are more tactile and easier to press, and theyll last you a few years, so the money is actually worht it.
I agree with the mouse statement, i don't understand the obsession with spending 60+ on a mouse with 40 buttons, also as far as keyboards go, i will pick up a 10$ one at target and it works just find, i will never in my life EVER spend more then 10-20$ on a keyboard, i find it ridiculous people spend 100+ on a keyboard but then again people spend spend ridiculous amounts of money on all kinds of trivial shit.
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On October 24 2010 02:06 Vedic wrote:
While this is correct, it's only correct up to a point. If you're striving for that 1:1 accuracy, you have to restrict yourself to your resolution. Using a 2000 DPI mouse in 1024x768 hurts you in the same way that using a 400dpi mouse hurts you in 1600x900.
Not true. It doen't hurt you in the same way. Using a mouse with dpi too low for fast 1:1 at a given screen resolution means you have to start skipping pixels. Using a mouse with dpi that's too high and that has to have it's sensitivity reduced below 1:1 means that some mouse movement has to be ignored, so it may take slightly farther to move between certain pixels than others. This is MUCH less noticeable than pixel-skipping, and unlike pixel skipping is not going to become a worse problem as the mouse move farther from 1:1
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but this is just completely false. Optical mice are FAR better about acceleration and max speed, and have always been so. Newer laser mice are getting much better, but to say that they're at the level of optical is just plain wrong. The good news is that the faults in acceleration/max speed on laser mice will only impact you at lower sensitivities - something that you shouldn't be using in an RTS to begin with. http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679 <- while it hasn't been updated in a few years, ESR is still the authority on hardware performance
I guess I wasn't clear -- I was talking about optical vs. ball, not optical vs. laser. Laser never came into my argument. You'll notice I don't mention laser mice anywhere in my post.
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On October 24 2010 02:24 ThE_ShiZ wrote:
Razers are good but, the mouse market in general is full of gimmicks. Most of the BW pros use regular logitechs, as long as the tracking is good and it has decent dpi you're fine. It should also fit comfortably in the hand. For rts, smaller mice are usually preffered.
Even the sc2 pros generally don't use over-the-top mice. Yuo don't need to spend 60+ on a good mouse. Sc2 only requires a 2 button mouse anyway. These "gaming" mice you see are pointless. I laugh when people spend tons of money on a razer and still suck at their games. I saw a gsl video where a WeMadeFoxx was using a shiny razer and had like 500 apm but still couldnt make it past the prelims. It's almost like buying drum equipment. They tell you their product makes you faster and more efficient but they're really just ripping you off.
Just use whats comfortable, has solid tracking, and at least 800 dpi imo. The only reason ud want high dpi though is so you can set the windows and ingame sensiticvity to 50/50 and still get high speed, but for sc2 1000-1200 dpi tops is needed. for FPS, the intellimouse is great because it has low dpi and a larger base.
Keyboards are a different story however. Though they dont make too much difference, you may want to spend 100+ on cherry mx browns. MEchanical keyboards are more tactile and easier to press, and theyll last you a few years, so the money is actually worht it.
It seems it's starting to change, from the GSL I've seen quite a few pros no longer using the cheap generic mice. Cool used a Logitech g9x and I think tester uses that too. It depends on your preferences but at 1080p resolutions many people like having 1600+ dpi.
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see, so this means U dont feel comfortable with mice above a size of X. why do u then say "mice of size greater than X are not good for rts" instead of "mice of size greater than X are not good for rts FOR ME"?
It's not even the feel aspect of it, it's the practicality. A large mouse might feel good for someone but it surely does limit quick motions. A smaller mouse is flickable with less arm motion. It's not like in fps where you buy a huge 2 foot mouse pad so you can fling your arm. sc2 requires more speed/mouse flicking and less precision, unlike fps where precision is favored over sensitivity, thus, it's much easier to fling your cursor around with a smaller mouse. Finger control is often favorable because of this.
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I use a Razer Diamondback for all my pc games, but really it doesn't matter, as long as it isn't balled. Your mousepad prob matters more than the mouse for rts (tracking+friction between it and the mouse)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.hitechreview.com/uploads/2009/07/Razer_Orochi_TopViewCable.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://photos.macnn.com/news/0911/RazerAbyssus1.jpg)
