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Adaptability, Creativity, and Map Generator - Page 5

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Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
August 09 2009 08:45 GMT
#81
On August 09 2009 13:52 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2009 06:55 Badjas wrote:
A random map generator can be made very intelligent. A computer can calculate rushing distances (in time, obviously), mineral line to perimeter distance (for tank and muta harass defence), choke point size and positions, number of routes, resource amounts...

The problem with this is that the generator has to preemptively evaluate factors. How can a computer assess the balance of a map without knowing how relevant a given feature will be? How could it know that the positional imbalance on an LT-style map is huge without a large sample set of games on similar maps?

Starcraft has been patched many times to enhance balance after it was released. A random map generator can also be patched.
From my post:
Of course, a human might spot opportunities for abuse that a computer can't see. Maybe the random map generator can be enhanced to parametrize these settings in a way so that balance is assured. But when players spot opportunities for abuse, these players should be rewarded for it.

Not claiming that random map making is the solution to strategic creativity. I do feel convinced that a random map generator can produce quality maps. You mention that LT style maps are imbalanced. I'm pretty sure a map generator can calculate what a human can see (with regards to strategy of course).

The best way to find out what a random map generator can do and what it can do for casual / non-pro play, is to create one for starcraft (sc1 / bw).
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
August 09 2009 09:31 GMT
#82
Have fun with coding one for SC1. Getting somewhat proper terrain done is a ton of work already. Especially if you don't even have the ISOM Algorithm, and as far as I know neither Blizzard nor SuicidalInsanity have released anything. Add all the the stuff you'd have to hardcode (like custom ramps because they basically use random tiles) and you're quite occupied.
Then you'd have to develop all the algorithms, gather all the parameters through replay analysis or whatever, and even work in the metagame.

That might be possible if you got a team of people who are experienced in those fields and get paid for that, but otherwise this will take quite a while.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-09 21:19:31
August 09 2009 21:19 GMT
#83
Magic is a great game, but the randomness does not add to the competitive aspect, it detracts from it.

I'm going to just say I don't agree. Magic without randomness would be an awful game. Where's the fun in a deterministic card game? That's what it would be.

No point in even playing if you take out the randomness. Just build decks and compare the decklists and you're done.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-09 21:28:36
August 09 2009 21:27 GMT
#84
http://wesnoth.org/

Best multiplayer TBS I have ever played.

Also maybe the best game I've ever played imo is Magic: the Gathering.

Both have large elements of luck in them and are still fanastic competitive games.

I agree that Starcraft is not the place for randomness in a competitive setting, but I think your comment here is ridiculous.


Oh, what's up, my leader red mage missed all 4 shots on a red hp melee character and died the next turn to 6/6 direct hits (and consequently missed all his staff hits) while on a mountain?

Wesnoth is a HUGE RNG gamefuck. There's only so much you can do when you're -30EV, not to mention that getting any significant -EV during the first major fight screws you pretty majorly. If the game had more units and experience wasn't so powerful, the RNG in wesnoth wouldn't be terrible for competitive play, but it is. There are very few player in the wesnoth competitive community specifically because most people correctly realize how fucked the game is.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Vision
Profile Joined June 2009
United States113 Posts
August 09 2009 23:19 GMT
#85
Randomly generated maps would bring a whole new level to starcraft IMO, because instead of memorizing maps from a map-pool beforehand, both players have to go through the random map together not knowing anything about it. The concept probably sounds silly to most people, and I doubt there will be any way to make a randomly generated map for SC that is actually close to balanced, or doesn't look shitty.
Let's unite the blizzard community! But you can't actually talk to eachother..... - Luca
Idle
Profile Joined May 2009
Korea (South)124 Posts
August 09 2009 23:20 GMT
#86
On August 10 2009 06:19 crate wrote:
Show nested quote +
Magic is a great game, but the randomness does not add to the competitive aspect, it detracts from it.

I'm going to just say I don't agree. Magic without randomness would be an awful game. Where's the fun in a deterministic card game? That's what it would be.

No point in even playing if you take out the randomness. Just build decks and compare the decklists and you're done.


You're right, Magic without randomness would be an awful game. That doesn't mean that randomness adds more to the competitive aspect of the game. Magic is a TCG, comparing magic to SC as a competitive skill based game is like saying blackjack is as competitive or skill based as chess. The game is not designed around showing player skill, its designed around selling trading cards.
I'd turn gay for Baby.... wait, that came out wrong.
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
August 09 2009 23:32 GMT
#87
That's why SC2 is coming out

But to be honest, it's the progamers that dictate what kind of gameplay occurs in Starcraft. If one can defend against a 1base rush while getting 2bases and win because of that economic advantage in the end, why not?
:)
oolon
Profile Joined August 2009
United States27 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-10 01:29:57
August 10 2009 01:28 GMT
#88
Here's my analogy for you guys. Starcraft has often been compared to chess, so this might be an appropriate comparision.

Chess is a game whose board and rules never change. The only variable is player choice. The result of this are dozens of "standard openings", not unlike the kinds we see in professional Starcraft. Each standard opening has a rather standard response, though deeper into chess games you can see how creativity can affect the game. However, some chess games can be played rather mechanically, as well, several moves deep into a game.

There is a chess variant called Fischer Random Chess, or Chess 960, which randomizes the starting position of the nearest row of pieces (the non-pawns) except for the position of the king (must be between two rooks), and the two bishops must start on opposite colored squares. This results in 960 different possible starting positions of those 8 pieces (mirrored on the other side, but notably not reversed). It's named after Bobby Fischer because he prosposed it, as it allowed an individual's maneuvering and tactical prowess in the game to shine, rather than standard play (or more specifically, standard play is what the smart people created and everyone else copied when it was proven to work). A true depth of chess understanding is required to know how to do the best with your units and their starting positions, rather than knowing exactly how you're going to open weeks beforehand (as I'm sure Fantasy knew exactly what he was going to do to Jaedong on a map like Neo Medusa well ahead of time).

There's no reason this can't be true of Starcraft II maps, as well. No one is saying the map should be completely randomized (just as Chess 960 is not). What should be randomized in this scenario are distances between starting positions, arrangement of expansions, presence of islands, inter-base terrain features (chokes, high ground, watch towers). The computer can of course be told to generate these maps based on simple formulas like "starting base requires 9 mineral patches and 2 gas, with adjacent natural expansion with 9 mineral patches and 2 gas", and what is random is the way they open onto the map, the elevation and the choke (defensibility), and destructible features around the map.

What if the map has randomly generated a vulnerable backdoor cliff that a colossus or reapers could exploit? That means all of the bases have it. Scouting and adapting to the map as play unfolds requires skill, and exploiting it requires on-the-fly creativity. These are aspects of competition that should be more rewarded than running a build you've practiced thousands of times. Sure, after the match you could say it was imbalanced, but you can also ask yourself "What could the loser have done to prevent the exploit of these features?"

Anyway, random maps would of course be mirrored and modular. That is to say if a base spawns with a nat and mineral-only third, all behind the same choke, then so do the other starting positions on the map. Does this provide a distinct advantage to one race? Maybe. It's your job to figure out how to crack it before the other opponent can figure it out of exploit it. This can only increase the level of competition in Starcraft.

Taking away standard maps at least allows for some players to prove and win based on their adaptability. I'm kind of surprised that KESPA doesn't introduce "surprise" maps, one that the players don't know about ahead of time, but are familiar with and have practiced on. Would Fantasy have done as well against Jaedong if he had not known the map would be Neo Medusa for the ace? What if it had been hidden from the players until game time? Would've been interesting.

TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
August 10 2009 01:40 GMT
#89
On August 10 2009 06:19 crate wrote:
Show nested quote +
Magic is a great game, but the randomness does not add to the competitive aspect, it detracts from it.

I'm going to just say I don't agree. Magic without randomness would be an awful game. Where's the fun in a deterministic card game? That's what it would be.

No point in even playing if you take out the randomness. Just build decks and compare the decklists and you're done.

You miss the point. No one said that Magic without randomness would be good. But the fact of the matter is that while randomness adds to the GAME, it detracts from making it competitive, because of how luck can so often allow a worse player to beat a better one.

The thing about randomized maps is that they don't add significantly to the game experience, while they do significantly detract from the format's competitive viability.
Moderator
DefMatrixUltra
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1992 Posts
August 10 2009 02:28 GMT
#90
On August 09 2009 06:09 crate wrote:
Show nested quote +
Idle wrote:
Rofl, just... wow. RNG in any game makes it so that games are won and lost based on a dice roll. That is completely terrible for any competitive environment.


http://wesnoth.org/

Best multiplayer TBS I have ever played.

Also maybe the best game I've ever played imo is Magic: the Gathering.

Both have large elements of luck in them and are still fanastic competitive games.

I agree that Starcraft is not the place for randomness in a competitive setting, but I think your comment here is ridiculous.


It's a subtle point, but these are two entirely different ideas of randomness. In one case (randomly generated map), an entire game could be decided at one instant with a single 'die roll'. You could have a PvZ where the map happens to have 4 easy gasses and favors the flanking style of the Zerg and has a tiny main base etc. etc.

In the case of Wesnoth, though, the randomness is something that you manage. Is there a chance that an important unit could die if you attack now? If yes, is it a high chance (for those that don't know, the game calculates all probabilities for you and displays the result before any action is taken)? If yes, then you risk a major decisive blow against yourself - it's probably best not to. This act of playing conservatively over the course of dozens of random encounters represents good "risk management". The winner is usually the player with the best "betting" skills - that is, he bets on the smart money. He buys low and sells high and isn't taken in by excessive greed.

If this kind of randomness was in Starcraft, it probably wouldn't be that big a deal - this kind of randomness depends on the scale. Wesnoth is probably at 'medium' on this scale, meaning that there is some not-insignificant chance that luck could make or break you. WoW is at 'high' on this scale, meaning that a significant chance exists that luck will determine the outcome. However, if Wesnoth were a game where the map was randomly generated, you bet you could kiss balance goodbye. The locations of villages (similar to expansion locations) and the terrain surrounding them would determine the winner.

I think randomized maps would be an interesting feature, but I would be really unhappy to see it in progaming. Some of the most exciting games are ones with well-planned strategies and timing. Why should we reward on-the-fly creativity above all? Aren't execution, preparedness, and a sense of existing game balance good too? I personally prefer games where crazy strategies are performed based on heavily calculated build orders, building locations, scout timings and positions and so on. I think those demonstrate an incredible depth of understanding.

On the other hand, I fear that having randomized maps would just force the game even more towards mechanics than it already is. Builds would no longer be tailor-made, and I fear that the finesse they sometimes require would be gone. Builds would become more like general concepts based on map allowances, and the player with more EAPM would be able to carry out their general build the best.

I realize my two objections are sort of mutually exclusive. They are more "arguments against other arguments" than whatever I actually feel. What I do feel is that random maps have no place in progaming.
Bill307
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada9103 Posts
August 10 2009 03:26 GMT
#91
Some of you guys write waaay too many words to make a simple point. =P


Anyway, would a random map generator actually be useful? I doubt it. Example: how many people have played on every:
- Progaming map?
- Blizzard map?
- User-made map on brood war maps?

If these options haven't been exhausted yet, then I don't see how having even more maps would be worth the effort.
Bill307
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada9103 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-10 03:34:21
August 10 2009 03:33 GMT
#92
On August 09 2009 18:31 spinesheath wrote:
Have fun with coding one for SC1. Getting somewhat proper terrain done is a ton of work already. Especially if you don't even have the ISOM Algorithm, and as far as I know neither Blizzard nor SuicidalInsanity have released anything. Add all the the stuff you'd have to hardcode (like custom ramps because they basically use random tiles) and you're quite occupied.
Then you'd have to develop all the algorithms, gather all the parameters through replay analysis or whatever, and even work in the metagame.

That might be possible if you got a team of people who are experienced in those fields and get paid for that, but otherwise this will take quite a while.

No one is asking for the random maps to look good, afaict. That part can always be taken care of by a human, anyway, if the map turns out to be fun.

As a starting point, in SC1, the algorithm could draw out a main base + nat + 3rd base in a corner of the map using a handful of square tiles, then rotate it to make the other 3 corners.

I'd say it's do-able by a highly-motivated community member.
Rakanishu2
Profile Joined May 2009
United States475 Posts
August 10 2009 07:56 GMT
#93
On August 10 2009 12:26 Bill307 wrote:
Some of you guys write waaay too many words to make a simple point. =P


Anyway, would a random map generator actually be useful? I doubt it. Example: how many people have played on every:
- Progaming map?
- Blizzard map?
- User-made map on brood war maps?

If these options haven't been exhausted yet, then I don't see how having even more maps would be worth the effort.


Quoted for truth. Some of the posts in here are huge considering what you want to say is "Randomness can be ok, but not always lol!"

The OP is inherently flawed, because he suggests that everything pro-level players do is mapped out. Yea, they might go in with a build order, but whether or not they:

-expand (They've weakened their opponent but not enough to finish them)
-move in for a kill (weakened opponent enough to finish)
-turtle up (expecting a finisher and is trying to counter)
-or move out (catching opponent while expanding)
-Tech decisions
-Upgrade decisions
-Multitude of other decisions

These are all things that must be that can be decided in reaction to the opponent.

The OP is wrong.

Computer generated maps simply won't get played.



10 G's in the packet and I'm ready to roll, on fire like a rocket and I'm ready to blow
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
August 10 2009 14:59 GMT
#94
Even though SC is getting more and more mapped out, there are so many variables involved in a game that no game is the other one alike. Plus, it's still evolving.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
EchOne
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2906 Posts
August 10 2009 15:48 GMT
#95
Maps are fine. Gimmicks like this aren't required to promote a vibrant and exciting scene.

To those who think that random maps will be mysterious and their imbalances not readily perceivable:
A progamer does not need to be some strategic savant to recognize an insanely short overlord/rush/air distance ala Battle Royal, a plethora of gas per defensive point ala God's Garden, or simply too much map center clutter helping the mech push ala Lost Temple.
面白くない世の中, 面白くすればいいさ
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
August 10 2009 19:54 GMT
#96
This is not a good idea. If you don't like what SC has developed into, that's just fine. I think there's plenty of variety in gameplay, and I don't need to see Boxer-esque play every game to be entertained/satisfied. It's hard enough learning to properly execute the "standard" build order, and I don't think you appreciate the meticulous preparation that progamers put into every televised match in order to counter what they expect their opponent to do.

Beyond that...randomized terrain? The positional imbalances would be ridiculous. How would you guarantee that the main only has one entrance? How would you guarantee there's a natural? How would you guarantee the bases are distributed fairly?

Not many seem to understand this, but even mirror matchups can suffer from map imbalances if they're positional and terrain-based ones, just like on old Medusa at the 6 o'clock base with the main gas being tankable from the back ridge.

There'd be no point in preparing build orders anymore if you had no idea what the fuck the map you were going to play on would be. Actually...really, how the fuck would you practice in the first place?

I can't believe how many people actually LIKE this idea.
Hello
Jakalo
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Latvia2350 Posts
August 11 2009 00:33 GMT
#97
It’s the players who innovate – Savior (use of swarm), Bisu (Bisu build), Flash (Dual Armory build), Fantasy (Fantasy build, mech build), July Zerg (Mutalisk Stacking), Jaedong (2-hatch muta, queen usage) etc… we remember and like to watch.




Yeah you basically wrote down people who have been dominant with these things because its not true that they innovated them (at least for the most of them), but were good enough (strong mehanics) to implement them successfully in proscene.
Nostalgia is not as good as it used to be.
LuckyOne
Profile Joined December 2006
266 Posts
August 11 2009 00:48 GMT
#98
On August 11 2009 04:54 PH wrote:
There'd be no point in preparing build orders anymore if you had no idea what the fuck the map you were going to play on would be. Actually...really, how the fuck would you practice in the first place?

thats the point you wouldnt need to practice and prepare just play and pwn or be pwnt.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4222 Posts
August 11 2009 02:26 GMT
#99
On August 10 2009 10:28 oolon wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Here's my analogy for you guys. Starcraft has often been compared to chess, so this might be an appropriate comparision.

Chess is a game whose board and rules never change. The only variable is player choice. The result of this are dozens of "standard openings", not unlike the kinds we see in professional Starcraft. Each standard opening has a rather standard response, though deeper into chess games you can see how creativity can affect the game. However, some chess games can be played rather mechanically, as well, several moves deep into a game.

There is a chess variant called Fischer Random Chess, or Chess 960, which randomizes the starting position of the nearest row of pieces (the non-pawns) except for the position of the king (must be between two rooks), and the two bishops must start on opposite colored squares. This results in 960 different possible starting positions of those 8 pieces (mirrored on the other side, but notably not reversed). It's named after Bobby Fischer because he prosposed it, as it allowed an individual's maneuvering and tactical prowess in the game to shine, rather than standard play (or more specifically, standard play is what the smart people created and everyone else copied when it was proven to work). A true depth of chess understanding is required to know how to do the best with your units and their starting positions, rather than knowing exactly how you're going to open weeks beforehand (as I'm sure Fantasy knew exactly what he was going to do to Jaedong on a map like Neo Medusa well ahead of time).

There's no reason this can't be true of Starcraft II maps, as well. No one is saying the map should be completely randomized (just as Chess 960 is not). What should be randomized in this scenario are distances between starting positions, arrangement of expansions, presence of islands, inter-base terrain features (chokes, high ground, watch towers). The computer can of course be told to generate these maps based on simple formulas like "starting base requires 9 mineral patches and 2 gas, with adjacent natural expansion with 9 mineral patches and 2 gas", and what is random is the way they open onto the map, the elevation and the choke (defensibility), and destructible features around the map.

What if the map has randomly generated a vulnerable backdoor cliff that a colossus or reapers could exploit? That means all of the bases have it. Scouting and adapting to the map as play unfolds requires skill, and exploiting it requires on-the-fly creativity. These are aspects of competition that should be more rewarded than running a build you've practiced thousands of times. Sure, after the match you could say it was imbalanced, but you can also ask yourself "What could the loser have done to prevent the exploit of these features?"

Anyway, random maps would of course be mirrored and modular. That is to say if a base spawns with a nat and mineral-only third, all behind the same choke, then so do the other starting positions on the map. Does this provide a distinct advantage to one race? Maybe. It's your job to figure out how to crack it before the other opponent can figure it out of exploit it. This can only increase the level of competition in Starcraft.

Taking away standard maps at least allows for some players to prove and win based on their adaptability. I'm kind of surprised that KESPA doesn't introduce "surprise" maps, one that the players don't know about ahead of time, but are familiar with and have practiced on. Would Fantasy have done as well against Jaedong if he had not known the map would be Neo Medusa for the ace? What if it had been hidden from the players until game time? Would've been interesting.




I completely agree with that. As a chess player as well - I love this kind of stuff. We would play games where we had to choose our pieces based on points (9 for queen, 5 for rook, etc), up to a maximum, so we could use what we wanted. We would play ``blind`` chess, where we could not see our opponents pieces. We would play 4 way chess. There are so many things you can do, if you take your head out of your ass and look at all the possibilities.

I am all for random maps - as long as they have proper coding. There are a number of ways to help reduce or eliminate positional and map imbalances this way, without having to actually make a map.

They don`t need to look incredibly pretty - that`s not the focus of a map. The focus is on the game.
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
sanji_
Profile Joined June 2009
United States16 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-11 03:29:36
August 11 2009 03:27 GMT
#100
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 11 2009 04:54 PH wrote:
This is not a good idea. If you don't like what SC has developed into, that's just fine. I think there's plenty of variety in gameplay, and I don't need to see Boxer-esque play every game to be entertained/satisfied. It's hard enough learning to properly execute the "standard" build order, and I don't think you appreciate the meticulous preparation that progamers put into every televised match in order to counter what they expect their opponent to do.

Beyond that...randomized terrain? The positional imbalances would be ridiculous. How would you guarantee that the main only has one entrance? How would you guarantee there's a natural? How would you guarantee the bases are distributed fairly?

Not many seem to understand this, but even mirror matchups can suffer from map imbalances if they're positional and terrain-based ones, just like on old Medusa at the 6 o'clock base with the main gas being tankable from the back ridge.

There'd be no point in preparing build orders anymore if you had no idea what the fuck the map you were going to play on would be. Actually...really, how the fuck would you practice in the first place?

I can't believe how many people actually LIKE this idea.

You may not understand how a "random map" is nothing but just a variation of a certain map design. Have you ever played Age of Empires 2/3 or Age of Mythology? If so, you would know there are plenty of maps in the game. For example, in Age of Mythology there is a map called Midgard. The basic design of the map is 2 settlements near each player's starting spawn, and a number of hunting that spawns at equal distances from the starting spawns. It also produces a number of fishing spots in the water. The map layout is generally the same as well (one huge island with water all around). Every time the map is "randomly generated," it will produce the same design. The only differences are the terrain being different. In this case, the map is not symmetrical.

Oh, and there were build orders for the map that would ALWAYS apply. The scout in this game would be used early on to find resources (but in SC2, your scout will probably find the natural on most maps if there was a random map generator).

A random map generator could be sophisticated enough to make a symmetrical map with an equal number of expansions, mineral patches, the distances to and from, all the time. The only things that would change are the terrain, but it is possible to keep cliffs a certain distance away, ramps, etc and of course make it symmetrical.
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