EPTThe Obelisk and Decision Making - Page 2
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bUbAciD
Croatia3 Posts
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OgerAffe
Germany48 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
How many times did you use the other obelisk abilities? Or did you just use Proton Charge the whole game? Did it feel wierd telling the Obelisk you want to cast PC right next to it all the time? | ||
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OgerAffe
Germany48 Posts
In the same game i mentioned above the blizzard guy used the energyreload ability of his dark pylon at his expansion I attacked with marine Marauder +2 Ghosts and EMPd 3 of his 4 high templars. He took then energy from his dark pylon and had 1-2 more storms. It was really nice to see the other dark pylon ability in action! In the cologne build the psi storm was freaking weak so he couldnt hold off my marine/marauder/ghost spam but thats a different story :D. In the newest build psi storms seems to be much stronger, similar to sc1. | ||
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jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
is it still in? | ||
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OgerAffe
Germany48 Posts
its an awesome building :D | ||
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Drunken.Jedi
Germany446 Posts
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OgerAffe
Germany48 Posts
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B-612
Canada33 Posts
I feel that the abilities on the pylon so far are strong enough that they will be used from time to time but proton charge would still be the best choice. I think the largest limitation to the current utility of this macro mechanic is the range of the abilities. Could I build one as shield battery on my high ground by my ramp then once I've taken my expansion hit my mineral line with proton charge? This would be on maps like python or destination. I can already see some strength in using the pylon to charge the shields or psi of a High Templar or Archon guarding my mineral line in a PvZ that has gone muta heavy. I feel that the AoE idea for shield recharge would be excellent for defending one's probes from marauder attack or light drop harass but I think that the ability to spam recharge on an area would limit the macro feel of the mechanic. I feel that a strong addition to the shield recharge mechanic would be to allow it to target buildings in this way Dark Pylons still in your main after it has been mined out would still be able to buy you time against drops and attacks on pylon power or tech structures. This and other theorycraft discussions help me pass the time on slow work days, keep the sweet ideas coming everyone! | ||
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Drunken.Jedi
Germany446 Posts
On July 13 2009 04:37 B-612 wrote: I think I'm somewhere in the middle of this rather civil discussion on the utility of the Dark Pylon and its possible need for change, while I can see that we all have great ideas I do see one issue with the pylon as yet unmentioned. After a base is mined out the pylon becomes a very lame shield/energy battery, when one compares this ability to a queen that can move and an orbital command center that can target anywhere on the map the pylon's late game utility becomes an issue. I don't think this will be a problem in SC2, after all SC1 already has a similar disparity when players get mined out: Zergs can still use their hatch (or probably hive if it's in the main base) for unit production and Terrans can fly their cc to another expo (though they do of course lose a scanner), whereas a nexus becomes practically useless once the geyser is mined out. You don't really see that causing balance problems, so I don't think it would be a problem for the obelisk. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On July 12 2009 17:33 Krikkitone wrote: One final point on the "Positional Decision making" remember MBS is in. So if I select 5 different Obelisks, in 5 different places on the map and tell them to cast Proton Charge, the computer doesn't know which one. And if they all share energy, there is no need for me to deal with them seperately. Essentially, select my stored group of Base Obelisks (as opposed to field Obelisks) select Proton Charge select desired mineral line (camera movement) The Obelisk that is nearest the selected AoE casting area is the one that will be selected to cast ot of the community energy pool. So the "selecting of Location" is actally important, because you are selecting which Obelisk is going to cast it. (not by selecting the Obelisk,but by selecting the Mineral Line) Krikkitone has an important point here. With MBS the player has all his Obelisk on a hotkey and has to just cycle through the bases targeting PC. There is a seperate issue here in that from the hotkey group interface you cant tell which obelisks have enough energy. But lets stick with the targeting issue first. Is this sufficent reason for the Obelisk to target a mineral field? Thats a tricky question but it may help to look at all the other AoE spells in Starcraft. All of these spells require you to choose a location from several possible locations. They do this on the individual level so even if you have one High Templar there are still several places you could target the spell. Does the current Obelisk provide several possible locations to warrant being an AoE spell and not an Aura? I think the bar is to look at this ability and say "is there a good reason this is ability can not be autocast?" Personally I think that a game with a few powerful Obelisks plays better than a game with many weak obelisks. But I am open to discussion with those who favor the "many but shared mana" idea. | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
The issue with Psi Storm is NOT that the High Templar moves its that the useful Target moves. The abilities that are auto cast are also auto targeted (Medivac, SCV Repair, Unit Attack) OR untargetable... Build Intercepters, produce Larva MULE could quite easily be put on autocast, where it is just summoned to the CCs rally point. (although there you have the comsat you wish to preserve, so that would be an important reason why not to) Spawn Larva could definitely be put on Auto cast, where the Queen automatically targets the nearest friendly Hatchery (energy tension is the only reason why not to) Same with Proton Charge. In all of those cases, there is a Logical automatic target that is there. If Psi Storm didn't do friendly damage and cost so much energy, it Should be autocast. (if it did 0 friendly damage and used 2 energy instead of 75.... it should be autocast, just like a Archon attack is) I think that is Sufficient reason not to have autocast... energy tension. In the OC and the Queen it definitely there. As for the Obelisk, either mobility or shared energy will do it (combined with balancing the other abilities) I would suggest having the other Obelisk abilities as autocastable (similar to Repair/Medivac heal, etc. because they act much the same) However for a potential multiple target idea the AoE only covers a portion of a Mineral line, so unless you collect your probes, you only get ~2/3 the benefit. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
Since I heard about gas not being an infinite resource I have an alternative. Allow Obelisks to target minerals or geysers and not probes and make the choice exclusive. This way you are forced to choose either gas or mineral production at each base. Allow the Obelisk to spend energy to cloak itself and either: -give energy recharge or shield battery(not both) double their range and increase its cost. -create a new spell that makes it difficult for other players to discover ninja expansions unless they send out a peon to build at that location. | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On July 13 2009 22:20 mutantmagnet wrote: The teleport idea is a a good idea for its simplicity in addressing the issue but I'm not fond of it because if it takes time to build like a pylon a probe dropped from that shuttle can easily warp one in the same time it takes for one to teleport over. Since I heard about gas not being an infinite resource I have an alternative. Allow Obelisks to target minerals or geysers and not probes and make the choice exclusive. This way you are forced to choose either gas or mineral production at each base. Allow the Obelisk to spend energy to cloak itself and either: -give energy recharge or shield battery(not both) double their range and increase its cost. -create a new spell that makes it difficult for other players to discover ninja expansions unless they send out a peon to build at that location. That's why the Teleport should probably be instant, or just go with a shared pool. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5458 Posts
I'll try and find the source ... | ||
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OgerAffe
Germany48 Posts
your wrong. | ||
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clazziquai
6685 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On July 14 2009 02:33 da_head wrote: lol at the guy who suggested the photon charge ability to be autocast. like comon, the whole point of that macro mechanic is just that. for it to be a macro mechanic. to pay attention to it, and be punished for forgetting to activate it. lets not automate this game anymore than it is -_- lol I dont think you know me so ill let that one slide;) Im that crazy guy who wrote a 57 page thesis about including race specific macro mechanics in SC2. Im the guy who won the SCLegacy theorycrafting contest with a Protoss AoE spell that you cast on probes to make them mine faster (this was before Blizz announced Proton Charge). So yah I know how important it is that the player come back to base. I bring up autocasting to make a point about the meaningful targeting involved in casting Proton Charge or rather the lack thereof. To clarify, the real important part of a macro mechanic is the (back to base) camera shift to break the players visual contact with his army. In starcraft camera shifts are required when the player has to target something. The action of targeting something requires that the player have to make a decision about what to target. So that is what we are trying to do. We want the Proton Charge to require the player to come back to the base and target his mineral line. But we also want the player to have a reason he is being asked to make that decision. Orbital Command solves this problem by letting you drop MULEs at any base. So if you had a high yeild expo you could use your main base OC to drop there. | ||
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