TLDR: The Obelisk is currently lacking in Energy Tension and Positional-based Decision Making. Both of these issues could be improved by adding some form of mobility such as teleport to any area in pylon space.
Problem#1 Shield/Energy Recharge are not useful enough of the time to compete with Proton Charge
In order for Recharge Shields/Energy to compete with Proton Charge there needs to be ample times where both are viable options. Currently, Recharge Shields suffers from the same disadvantage it did in SC:BW. Armies are not battling at every time in the game. Often they are maneuvering, containing, retreating etc…
Even when armies are fighting it is often not right at your base. It can be in the middle of the map or at the opponent’s base. This means that it is only on seldom occasions that Recharge Shield will be a viable option. The result is the Proton Charge is always the correct choice unless the opponent is attacking your base.
Problem #2 Obelisk does not have Position-based Decision Making
The Orbital Command and Queen both feature Position-based Decision Making. The Orbital Command does this by being able to cast its spells across the entire map. The Queen features it by being able to move around and between bases to cast her spells where needed.
Proton Charge requires the player to place an AoE on his mineral line. This targeting action brings the player back to base (the multi-tasking part of macro). However, right now a player is only going to have one mineral field to cast on. There is no Position-based Decision Making like "which mineral field do I cast Proton Charge on?" This makes the player question why they are being asked to choose the location of the spell since there is only one possible choice.
Suggestion: Give the Obelisk Teleport
I think the best option is to give the Obelisk an ability that allows it to teleport anywhere in pylon power for X energy. This would give the player increased decisions about where they teleport their obelisk to. You can cycle the obelisk through multiple bases recasting Proton Charge on your mineral lines. This provides a reason for Proton Charge to be a AoE targeting spell.
You can also use your Obelisk to buff warp-in attacks. This is risky because if they opponent destroys your warp-prism then the obelisk will power down and you will lose an expensive building. You can also teleport your Obelisk to a base that is being under attack and use it to buff your warriors there. Since teleport to pylon power is similar to Wormhole Transit the Mothership would need to be reworked (maybe make it faster then molasses).
EDIT: Karune recently answered some questions about the Obelisk so ill include them here.
ArcherofAiur: Also, how effective are the Obelisk's Shield and Energy Recharge abilities?
Karune: The Obelisk's shield regeneration is currently at a 1:1 ratio and the energy transfer ability is at a 2:1 ratio (Obelisk energy to unit casting energy). These ratios are of course subject to balance. Originally, the energy transfer ability was at a 1:1 and that proved to be much too easy to fire off consecutive Psi Storms on incoming enemies while defending and attacking.
ArcherofAiur: Are the Shield and Energy Recharge abilities useful enough of the time to compete with Proton Charge? There is allot of concern that they may not be as good an alternative as say comsat is to MULE.
Karune: In my opinion, both recharge abilities are very useful, but often times it is better to build a second Obelisk when you can afford it to then use those abilities. If you are 100% efficient with probe buff, your first Obelisk should never have extra energy for the use of other abilities.
The shield recharge has a lot of uses its just not worth the money in SC:BW sometimes but since the obelisk will always be there it might see some use.
On July 12 2009 11:04 Skyze wrote: why dont they just merge the obelisk and mothership, and give it siegetank range/splash.
/sarcasm
the game is not even in beta yet, wait til you play it before making any stupid theorycrafting ideas.
Dustin Browder himself has said that the Obelisk has problems. "I agree that the Protoss mechanic is the least interesting of the 3. There is not a ton of tension right now on the abilities. Argus Link is really good, but Null Shield sees little use. Compared that to MULE vs. Comsat or the Queen's abilities and the Dark Pylon lacks choices (there is only one right choice most of the time)." - Dustin Browder (http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=15199333450&sid=3000&pageNo=2#26)
Now granted that was before they swapped Null Shield for Shield Recharge. Part of me is inclined to agree with you. Things will be alot clearer at beta. However there is a whole lot of talk about the Obelisks decision making on other forums and I feel it is important for TL to have their fair say as well.
On July 12 2009 11:04 Skyze wrote: why dont they just merge the obelisk and mothership, and give it siegetank range/splash.
/sarcasm
the game is not even in beta yet, wait til you play it before making any stupid theorycrafting ideas.
That's a bit harsh. It is possible to see when something is going to be a problem. He has given very clear reasons for his theory. This was the same process used to fix the macro mechanic, and the same process game companies use to pre-empt problems.
Theorycrafting is possible given the amount of information we have now. If we need to wait for the beta to say anything, we might as well not have the SC2 forum.
Ive saw you post this idea in Bnet, and i say its a cool try However i dont agree with giving it teleport and taking it out of Mothership. In the mothership it make more sense, as it is a big airship that can only teleport where it can acess energies (protoss building need pylon power).
For the Obelisk, giving it teleport just make it more easier to toss, since only one will be needed to power probes (like your example, provided it has energy to teleport and photon charge). And it enpower the "War In" tech even more (it is already too strong by now), as you can give shield to harassing units anywhere. Too much balance problems.
I agree with tsagacity that a walking shield battery is more cool idea, but dificult to balance imo.
I think it's fair enough to have the proton charge be the dominantly best choice for it, as long as its ability is not as strong as the T or Z abilities (at the moment, it does appear to be the weakest, although it probably scales better than the T one).
Edit : I think that an interesting option would actually be to move dark templar down on the tech tree and give it an ability to have detection within what would be its energy field - it would remove some of the luck from pvp while retaining an element of skill, at least if 1 hitting a probe doesn't activate a warning. If it was balanced so that perma casting proton charge leaves you out of the mana to do this, it would involve a tradeoff, especially in the pvp matchup. If you balanced it out so that by playing "safe" you wouldn't have the minerals to have certain build orders, it would involve lots of thought.
And pvz to an extent as well(I could see players skipping a forge and using it instead of cannons vs lurks on a ledge). Call it something like "psionic telemetry", idea being that it could have a burst of psionic power that created a brief telepathic field, revealing the thoughts of hidden things within a limited range. Wouldn't really do much vs Terran, but every ability shouldn't be applicable to every matchup. Actually, if it provided high ground vision and there was a cliff behind the natural or main, it might matter vs all races as well (as of right now, cliffs are probably super imba in such spots due to lack of high ground revealing, and needing an air unit to see up them).
It would be much weaker than comsat or the queen's multiple abilities, but that's fitting. At 200 minerals, it would be 2/3 the cost of a forge + cannon. 2nd edit : It could be more differentiated from comsat by rather than making the area detected, it makes the units within that field detectors for a short time - 10-15 seconds, even if they moved out of it. Makes using it after the probes are dead a bit more useless, and the altered lore for that would be something like it extends a telepathic field that the units around it can then access through the dark protoss psionic energy (whatever it's called. Not the khala, but I know it has a name).
I think teleport may be a little extreme for the race. Their positional play with warp in mechanics is already quite strong. I worry that allowing an oblisk to teleport to a location where you are performing a quick in-base warp in assult may be too powerful. I kind of like the fact that it has some powerful skills but is more limited to defensive uses.
Tsagacity's Idea of giving them legs may be a bit better. It allows positional play without giving it a direct link with warp-in play. You would have to make them fairly independant of pylon power tho (no slow'd or dies if out of pylone power) to maintain a strong racial difference to the zerg (crawler and queen). Maybe allow it to move but not cast unless in pylon power?
It's definetly the least interesting of the three mechanics. And Browder and Archerofaiur are correct about why. Not enough decision making or fighting between the skills, not poitionally based enough and some of the abilities are only useful for base defence. It will definetly be interesting to see what changes they do eventually make if any.
Shield recharge can prove invaluable if you are getting rushed or something similar. If I understood right, protoss opt for an obelisk rather early in the game.
On July 12 2009 14:42 Smu wrote: Shield recharge can prove invaluable if you are getting rushed or something similar. If I understood right, protoss opt for an obelisk rather early in the game.
They said it was about split right now, some dislike getting supply blocked and I would think regular pylon gets faster tech.
What if the Obelisk's shield battery ability is activated by x energy and slowly drains it's energy over time, but will quickly recharge the shields of any friendly unit in a radius around it automatically while it is active? Recharging shields would obviously use up more energy as well and it should be able to recharge the shields of all units within range simultaneously. This ability would be useful to help minimize damage from worker raids and is more effective the more energy the Obelisk has built up.
Well I think that the solution can more uniquely and effectively be found by
1. Shared Obelisk Energy Pool* (more unique than Teleport v. Queen movement) 2. building a Proxy Obelisk in Pylon power to access the Obelisk Network.(the way you would get Obelisk energy onto the battlefield)
However that depends, the "Shared Pool" is better for the Obelisk with its abilities+costs roughly as they are now, expensive but not too expensive.
a "Wormhole" Obelisk [and I would let the Obelisk AND the Mothership both have it, it would increase the uniqueness] Would probably be better if it was more expensive say 300-500 minerals (or minerals and gas), and it more easily maintained Proton Charges (and was also more effective on other abilities)... So that the One Obelisk could maintain 2 Mineral Lines at full charge. [and teleport between them to do so]
Those are the options I would go with. A cheaper Obelisk where ~3 would be needed to maintain 2 mineral lines at full charge, but with a shared energy pool. A more expensive Obelisk where only 1 would be needed to maintain 2 mineral lines at full charge, but with teleport.
*A shared energy pool does alter balance but main issues it raises could be fairly easily dealt with. The biggest one is the indestructible unit, ie My Zealot is next to an Obelisk so now he has the entire energy Pool to restore his shields. 2 components to the solution 1. limit the max energy of the Pool (not 200 per Obelisk but 100... maybe an upgrade in the DTemplar Shrine to make it 150) 2. Limit the Rate of shield recharge (or energy recharge) instead of 75 energy per second make it 25 energy per second. Makes it like a Roach, but Roaches can still be focus fired.
One final point on the "Positional Decision making" remember MBS is in. So if I select 5 different Obelisks, in 5 different places on the map and tell them to cast Proton Charge, the computer doesn't know which one. And if they all share energy, there is no need for me to deal with them seperately. Essentially, select my stored group of Base Obelisks (as opposed to field Obelisks) select Proton Charge select desired mineral line (camera movement) The Obelisk that is nearest the selected AoE casting area is the one that will be selected to cast ot of the community energy pool.
So the "selecting of Location" is actally important, because you are selecting which Obelisk is going to cast it. (not by selecting the Obelisk,but by selecting the Mineral Line)
make the shield recharge an AoE buff like proton charge, either make it so that you target an area and units within gain a shield regen buff for X seconds, or that you target a source of pylon power and for Y seconds it will act as a shield-fountain.
I think the main problem with the obelisk right now is that it's almost always the right decision to make one early on, since it not only gives you a superior economy but also enables you to fight off early rushes thanks to it working like a shield battery. If you made it so that proton charge became a cheap, early upgrade I think people would have to think a little harder about when to make the obelisk.
Overall though I do feel like the obelisk is working out very well, probably the best of the 3 macro mechanics, I just feel a little too accessible at the moment for my taste.
Just a clarification on your final point krikkitone, mbs will "use" the buildings closest to your view first.
Not much idea about what to do about proton charge tension though... It's just the protoss armies are fine without the shield regen, but the increased economy is pretty irreplacable imo... *shrug*
U cant always build Dark Obelisk after Gateway. In the newest build obelisk cost 200 Minerals and doenst support supply. If u scout that the opponent attempts to build a Dark obelisk freaking early then just expand, because u know he wont have much units in the first minutes. I played in cologne this blizzard employee and i scouted him building 2 Dark Obelisks, thats freaking 400 Minerals. I just expanded then with only 1-2 Marines and outmassed him in Midgame. Sometimes it may be very good to go for a very fast dark obelisk but im 100% sure u shouldnt do that always, the investment is just really big.
For the people who have played at Cologne or Blizzards Press Event: How many times did you use the other obelisk abilities? Or did you just use Proton Charge the whole game?
Did it feel wierd telling the Obelisk you want to cast PC right next to it all the time?
It doesnt feel wierd its really timing /macro intensive if u like to get the best out of it. using dark pylons with main and 2 expansion is not that easy. In the same game i mentioned above the blizzard guy used the energyreload ability of his dark pylon at his expansion I attacked with marine Marauder +2 Ghosts and EMPd 3 of his 4 high templars. He took then energy from his dark pylon and had 1-2 more storms. It was really nice to see the other dark pylon ability in action! In the cologne build the psi storm was freaking weak so he couldnt hold off my marine/marauder/ghost spam but thats a different story :D. In the newest build psi storms seems to be much stronger, similar to sc1.
they didnt remove energy recharge. They removed the invisible ability. now the dark pylon has proton charge, energyload, shieldload (like shieldbattery)
Are the shield charging ability and the energy charging ability seperate (so you can for example chose to recharge an HT's energy but not his shields) or is it a combined ability that recharges both (like moonwells in war3)?
I think I'm somewhere in the middle of this rather civil discussion on the utility of the Dark Pylon and its possible need for change, while I can see that we all have great ideas I do see one issue with the pylon as yet unmentioned. After a base is mined out the pylon becomes a very lame shield/energy battery, when one compares this ability to a queen that can move and an orbital command center that can target anywhere on the map the pylon's late game utility becomes an issue.
I feel that the abilities on the pylon so far are strong enough that they will be used from time to time but proton charge would still be the best choice. I think the largest limitation to the current utility of this macro mechanic is the range of the abilities. Could I build one as shield battery on my high ground by my ramp then once I've taken my expansion hit my mineral line with proton charge? This would be on maps like python or destination. I can already see some strength in using the pylon to charge the shields or psi of a High Templar or Archon guarding my mineral line in a PvZ that has gone muta heavy. I feel that the AoE idea for shield recharge would be excellent for defending one's probes from marauder attack or light drop harass but I think that the ability to spam recharge on an area would limit the macro feel of the mechanic. I feel that a strong addition to the shield recharge mechanic would be to allow it to target buildings in this way Dark Pylons still in your main after it has been mined out would still be able to buy you time against drops and attacks on pylon power or tech structures.
This and other theorycraft discussions help me pass the time on slow work days, keep the sweet ideas coming everyone!
On July 13 2009 04:37 B-612 wrote: I think I'm somewhere in the middle of this rather civil discussion on the utility of the Dark Pylon and its possible need for change, while I can see that we all have great ideas I do see one issue with the pylon as yet unmentioned. After a base is mined out the pylon becomes a very lame shield/energy battery, when one compares this ability to a queen that can move and an orbital command center that can target anywhere on the map the pylon's late game utility becomes an issue.
I don't think this will be a problem in SC2, after all SC1 already has a similar disparity when players get mined out: Zergs can still use their hatch (or probably hive if it's in the main base) for unit production and Terrans can fly their cc to another expo (though they do of course lose a scanner), whereas a nexus becomes practically useless once the geyser is mined out. You don't really see that causing balance problems, so I don't think it would be a problem for the obelisk.
On July 12 2009 17:33 Krikkitone wrote: One final point on the "Positional Decision making" remember MBS is in. So if I select 5 different Obelisks, in 5 different places on the map and tell them to cast Proton Charge, the computer doesn't know which one. And if they all share energy, there is no need for me to deal with them seperately. Essentially, select my stored group of Base Obelisks (as opposed to field Obelisks) select Proton Charge select desired mineral line (camera movement) The Obelisk that is nearest the selected AoE casting area is the one that will be selected to cast ot of the community energy pool.
So the "selecting of Location" is actally important, because you are selecting which Obelisk is going to cast it. (not by selecting the Obelisk,but by selecting the Mineral Line)
Krikkitone has an important point here. With MBS the player has all his Obelisk on a hotkey and has to just cycle through the bases targeting PC. There is a seperate issue here in that from the hotkey group interface you cant tell which obelisks have enough energy. But lets stick with the targeting issue first.
Is this sufficent reason for the Obelisk to target a mineral field? Thats a tricky question but it may help to look at all the other AoE spells in Starcraft. All of these spells require you to choose a location from several possible locations. They do this on the individual level so even if you have one High Templar there are still several places you could target the spell. Does the current Obelisk provide several possible locations to warrant being an AoE spell and not an Aura?
I think the bar is to look at this ability and say "is there a good reason this is ability can not be autocast?"
Personally I think that a game with a few powerful Obelisks plays better than a game with many weak obelisks. But I am open to discussion with those who favor the "many but shared mana" idea.
The issue with Psi Storm is NOT that the High Templar moves its that the useful Target moves.
The abilities that are auto cast are also auto targeted (Medivac, SCV Repair, Unit Attack) OR untargetable... Build Intercepters, produce Larva
MULE could quite easily be put on autocast, where it is just summoned to the CCs rally point. (although there you have the comsat you wish to preserve, so that would be an important reason why not to)
Spawn Larva could definitely be put on Auto cast, where the Queen automatically targets the nearest friendly Hatchery (energy tension is the only reason why not to)
Same with Proton Charge.
In all of those cases, there is a Logical automatic target that is there.
If Psi Storm didn't do friendly damage and cost so much energy, it Should be autocast. (if it did 0 friendly damage and used 2 energy instead of 75.... it should be autocast, just like a Archon attack is)
I think that is Sufficient reason not to have autocast... energy tension. In the OC and the Queen it definitely there. As for the Obelisk, either mobility or shared energy will do it (combined with balancing the other abilities)
I would suggest having the other Obelisk abilities as autocastable (similar to Repair/Medivac heal, etc. because they act much the same)
However for a potential multiple target idea the AoE only covers a portion of a Mineral line, so unless you collect your probes, you only get ~2/3 the benefit.
The teleport idea is a a good idea for its simplicity in addressing the issue but I'm not fond of it because if it takes time to build like a pylon a probe dropped from that shuttle can easily warp one in the same time it takes for one to teleport over.
Since I heard about gas not being an infinite resource I have an alternative.
Allow Obelisks to target minerals or geysers and not probes and make the choice exclusive. This way you are forced to choose either gas or mineral production at each base.
Allow the Obelisk to spend energy to cloak itself and either:
-give energy recharge or shield battery(not both) double their range and increase its cost. -create a new spell that makes it difficult for other players to discover ninja expansions unless they send out a peon to build at that location.
On July 13 2009 22:20 mutantmagnet wrote: The teleport idea is a a good idea for its simplicity in addressing the issue but I'm not fond of it because if it takes time to build like a pylon a probe dropped from that shuttle can easily warp one in the same time it takes for one to teleport over.
Since I heard about gas not being an infinite resource I have an alternative.
Allow Obelisks to target minerals or geysers and not probes and make the choice exclusive. This way you are forced to choose either gas or mineral production at each base.
Allow the Obelisk to spend energy to cloak itself and either:
-give energy recharge or shield battery(not both) double their range and increase its cost. -create a new spell that makes it difficult for other players to discover ninja expansions unless they send out a peon to build at that location.
That's why the Teleport should probably be instant, or just go with a shared pool.
I think instant cast but with a cool down. So I you teleported your Obelisk to a warp-in attack and the warp-in attack failed then you couldnt just teleport away. There would be this risk.
Somewhat recently, Dustin said that they removed the energy charge ability because it was way too powerful for base defence. A couple HT's could cast a number of storms and easily defend against a larger army.
lol at the guy who suggested the photon charge ability to be autocast. like comon, the whole point of that macro mechanic is just that. for it to be a macro mechanic. to pay attention to it, and be punished for forgetting to activate it. lets not automate this game anymore than it is -_-
On July 14 2009 02:33 da_head wrote: lol at the guy who suggested the photon charge ability to be autocast. like comon, the whole point of that macro mechanic is just that. for it to be a macro mechanic. to pay attention to it, and be punished for forgetting to activate it. lets not automate this game anymore than it is -_-
lol I dont think you know me so ill let that one slide;)
Im that crazy guy who wrote a 57 page thesis about including race specific macro mechanics in SC2. Im the guy who won the SCLegacy theorycrafting contest with a Protoss AoE spell that you cast on probes to make them mine faster (this was before Blizz announced Proton Charge). So yah I know how important it is that the player come back to base. I bring up autocasting to make a point about the meaningful targeting involved in casting Proton Charge or rather the lack thereof.
To clarify, the real important part of a macro mechanic is the (back to base) camera shift to break the players visual contact with his army. In starcraft camera shifts are required when the player has to target something. The action of targeting something requires that the player have to make a decision about what to target.
So that is what we are trying to do. We want the Proton Charge to require the player to come back to the base and target his mineral line. But we also want the player to have a reason he is being asked to make that decision.
Orbital Command solves this problem by letting you drop MULEs at any base. So if you had a high yeild expo you could use your main base OC to drop there.
On July 14 2009 01:54 OgerAffe wrote: hf finding this source :D your wrong.
I just misread it is all. I forgot they only removed the pylon power/supply from it to reduce its effectiveness. You can see the Psi Storm quote I was thinking of, though.
The Dark Pylon is now known as the Obelisk – primarily because it no longer cloaks units and no longer provides pylon power/supply. This change was mostly due to balance, since it is relatively easy to spam Dark Pylons everywhere and instantly have a Psi Storm recharge point to decimate incoming forces.
Ugh, am I the only one that hates MULEs and Proton Charge? It seems like pointless clicking to me, no strategy involved, no reason involved other than 'we have to do this to make players come back to base and click.'
I would much rather they do something innovative, like building linking. That is, you click one building and drag through some nearby buildings to do something. I have no idea what, but if you had several things possible with that and had to do it for each new unit, well hell there's some macro that offers choice, takes some time and skill, and MATTERS, unlike proton charge, which is just an APM eater.
On July 14 2009 03:55 garmule2 wrote: I would much rather they do something innovative, like building linking. That is, you click one building and drag through some nearby buildings to do something. I have no idea what, but if you had several things possible with that and had to do it for each new unit, well hell there's some macro that offers choice, takes some time and skill, and MATTERS, unlike proton charge, which is just an APM eater.
On July 14 2009 03:55 garmule2 wrote: Ugh, am I the only one that hates MULEs and Proton Charge? It seems like pointless clicking to me, no strategy involved, no reason involved other than 'we have to do this to make players come back to base and click.'
Well ideally, its an additional strategy to manage "macro energy" which can be used for economic boosts OR something else useful.
This requires that the reason you use/don't use a macro mechanic is based on what the best use of energy is at that time (based on your economic output, strategic/tactical situation, etc.)
Currently the long cooldowns, and non stackability force it into more of a pointless clicking, but I am hopeful that Blizzard will fix this mistake, like they did the "gas shutdown+reactivate" mechanic.
I do agree some type of building linking concept would be good, BUT chances are you would have just as much incentive to "set up connections" and just leave them going. Which means it would have just as much reason to be 'autocastable' in that sense. Also it would be MUCH harder to design and balance.
As for the current abilities on the Obelisk, Karune recently said that they kept both the recharge abilities, They just changed the ratio. (recharge Shields at 1:1, Energy at 1:2...... where the second number is the Obelisk energy)
I personally think they should change the Rate rather than the Ratio to balance it, but that's because that would also help balance a 'shared pool'
As to the Teleport idea: timed cooldowns seemed like they could make it difficult to properly move it around to service multiple bases (as needed), and energy costs might significantly affect its ability to use other abilities.. So a proposal.
The "Teleport" costs Shield energy. 1. This recharges fast and does Not overlap with the normal energy costs 2. This means that an Obelisk under attack can lose the ability to teleport
say ~100 shields, which must be full energy to allow it to teleport.
Another idea is to give it a slightly higher shield:hp ratio, and Teleport eliminates the shields as a side effect (like Dark Archon Mind Control) That way there is a Risk teleporting it into battle.
Or simply require full shields for it to Teleport (and keep it an energy cost)
The building linking would be a nice idea with more space imo, it worked really well in Supreme Commander (PURE macro game) As depending on how your base was set up would change the efficiency and cost of units and construction.
I can't really see it working in the fast paced SC though, it would be nice to give more options to the pro macroers out there.
I think Protoss Warp-In and Zerg's Creep drop/Nydus Worms are already good non-economy based macro mechanics. I'm of the belief that macro doesn't have to be linked with economy, mostly multitasking. I just don't think Warp-In and Creep drop/Nydus Worm/Creep related strategies have been used to their fullest to see their macro potential. If only Terran had an upgrade to be able to build and store 1 unit while lifted off encourages base movement macro.
Macro based Protoss players would be able to time their warp-ins and manage the cooldowns of multiple Warpgates and manage Warp-In spots with Pylons/Prisms at a constant basis.
Zerg macro players could paint the map purple with multiple overlords in multiple locations with overseers summoning nydus worms on them while relocating his armies at different nydus worms for good flanks. He could also fortify creep spots with an overlord carrying a queen to place creep tumors and drones to morph to spine crawlers.
Notice how both macro mechanics are available at Tier 2. Warp-In at Cyber core and Creep Drop/Overseers/Nydus Network after Lair. Its like a steady progression. By tier 2 MBS and new UI features would make it easy, so they add new mechanics and options in tier 2 to enhanced your play and keep you occupied.
Karune recently answered some questions about the Obelisk so ill post them here
ArcherofAiur: Also, how effective are the Obelisk's Shield and Energy Recharge abilities?
Karune: The Obelisk's shield regeneration is currently at a 1:1 ratio and the energy transfer ability is at a 2:1 ratio (Obelisk energy to unit casting energy). These ratios are of course subject to balance. Originally, the energy transfer ability was at a 1:1 and that proved to be much too easy to fire off consecutive Psi Storms on incoming enemies while defending and attacking.
ArcherofAiur: Are the Shield and Energy Recharge abilities useful enough of the time to compete with Proton Charge? There is allot of concern that they may not be as good an alternative as say comsat is to MULE.
Karune: In my opinion, both recharge abilities are very useful, but often times it is better to build a second Obelisk when you can afford it to then use those abilities. If you are 100% efficient with probe buff, your first Obelisk should never have extra energy for the use of other abilities.
The issue is the difficulty in getting "maximum benefit" from a particular macro mechanic.
With MULEs its easy assuming there is no significant coodown. whenever you want to take the time, spend all the energy you have calling down MULEs. (sooner is better ONLY for the reason that Minerals now is better than Minerals Later).. but you can get all the minerals you have energy for at the time you get them
With Spawn Larva, assuming multiple Spawn Larvas are allowed on the same Hatchery simultaneously. (sooner is better ONLY for the reason that Larva now is better than Larva later)...again.. all the Larva you have energy for you can get.
In both of those cases, the energy is the ONLY limiting factor.
With Proton charge, there is a maximum benefit. Once a Mineral Line is fully loaded, and you have enough energy to keep it at continuous charge, no more energy is useful. So you need to be able to spend exactly that amount of energy. This requires complex timing, clicking on the ability Exactly every 30 sec. (asuming that is the duration) unless
1) You have stackability (each casting adds time) (so if I add more energy early, I still get the full value from it, because it still adds the same 30 sec.) AND 2) You have some additional Obelisk energy to allow for some stacking.
A solution then, is 1) Allow Stacking the duration of the Charges AND 2) make it so you will Usually have too much or too little energy
for how to do #2, consider the current case. 1-200 mineral Obelisk can maintain 1 mineral line Proton Charge continuously. Assuming that is balanced, then what I propose is
change the cost of the Obelisk so that it is not a small # ratio... ie a certain # of Obelisks will be too few for your # of mineral lines, but one more will be too many
ie 1 can't support it but 2 is too many
so for example, if a 50 energy cost Proton Charge lasting 30 sec. can be continuously cast
One Option make it 80 energy cost for 30 sec. 1 Obelisk not enough for 1 mineral line 2 Obelisks more than enough for 1 mineral line, not enough for 2 mineral lines 4 Obelisks more than enough for 2 mineral lines, not enough for 3 mineral lines 5 Obelisks more than enough for 3 mineral lines, not enough for 4 mineral lines 7 Obelisks more than enough for 4 mineral lines, not enough for 5 mineral lines 8 Obelisks exactly enough for 5 mineral lines
However, 5 Mineral lines isn't a big portion of the game time, so most of the time you either have some extra energy, or all of your energy can easily be spent because Proton Charge runs out.
In this case, because you need 8 Obelisks for 5 Mineral Lines, they should be cheaper (only 125 instead of 200 minerals) and because you need more than 1 per mineral line, they should probably be Energy Pool based (1 by each of 5 mineral lines, and 3 extras somewhere on the map) Shield/Energy Recharging abilities would need their ratios+rates adjusted down for balance.
Another option Give the Obelisk Teleport to Pylon Power on a cooldown and Proton Charge 40 energy cost for 60 sec. 0 Obelisks not enough for 1 mineral line 1 Obelisks more than enough for 2 mineral lines, not enough for 3 mineral lines 2 Obelisks exactly enough for 5 mineral lines
In this case, because you only need 2 Obelisks for 5 mineral lines, they should be more expensive (500 instead of 200 minerals) Shield/Energy Recharging abilities would need their ratios+rates adjusted up for balance.
In Both cases allow stacking of the duration of Proton Charge.
With the mule. I believe the supply depot upgrade is the most ecconomical of the two abilities. It doubles the unit cap capacity of a depot for the same energy cost as a dropped mule (50e). This is a saving of 100minerals. The mule can collect from a crystal at the same time as a worker, but to collect 100minerals (@6 minerals per trip) it will have to make 17 round trips in its lifetime (which i don't believe it can with its current duration but I need confirmation on that. -Supply Depot(50e); instant saving of 100minerals; risky as the supply can be destroyed -Mule(50e); gradual saving of (less?)?minerals; less risky;can also be used for scouting The determining factors for OC savings are (a)energy (b)risk assessment and choice
Spawn lava has a 'growth duration'. So you have to consider both the energy reserved and the growth duration. One queen will generate more energy per min than it takes to cast spawn lava every time its available. The limiting factor of this ability is time not energy.
On July 15 2009 10:20 DeCoup wrote: Spawn lava has a 'growth duration'. So you have to consider both the energy reserved and the growth duration. One queen will generate more energy per min than it takes to cast spawn lava every time its available. The limiting factor of this ability is time not energy.
Honestly, what it sounds like to me is that you're just trying to beat around the fact you want it buffed. Essentially, you want the obelisk to be exactly the same as it is now, but with a teleport ability. It might make it more interesting, but you don't offer any nerfs along with it as well. It just sounds like a "let's give obelisk teleport." =/
On July 15 2009 11:44 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, what it sounds like to me is that you're just trying to beat around the fact you want it buffed. Essentially, you want the obelisk to be exactly the same as it is now, but with a teleport ability. It might make it more interesting, but you don't offer any nerfs along with it as well. It just sounds like a "let's give obelisk teleport." =/
I dont think any of the abilities need to be nerfed. I think the recharge abilities need to be made more viable. I also think there should be position based decision making.
my proposal to accomplish both these things is, wait for it....
On July 15 2009 11:44 FabledIntegral wrote: Honestly, what it sounds like to me is that you're just trying to beat around the fact you want it buffed. Essentially, you want the obelisk to be exactly the same as it is now, but with a teleport ability. It might make it more interesting, but you don't offer any nerfs along with it as well. It just sounds like a "let's give obelisk teleport." =/
I dont think any of the abilities need to be nerfed. I think the other abilities need to be made more viable. I also think there should be position based decision making.
Isn't there already a degree of positional decision making since you have to choose whether you put one at your mineral lines for proton charge, at your choke for shield/energy recharge, or as a proxy for a stronger push/contain? If the Obelisk can't move, then you would really have to decide whether you want to commit the resources to them or not.
If you really want the Obelisk to be able to teleport around, I'd give the teleportation a mineral cost instead of an energy cost. I think that makes sense since you're spending minerals to warp it to the battlefield from Shakuras (or wherever) in the first place. I really don't think it's necessary for all three races to have mobile buildings though.
By the way, do you know if Obelisks require pylon power now that they don't supply their own?
Isn't there already a degree of positional decision making since you have to choose whether you put one at your mineral lines for proton charge, at your choke for shield/energy recharge, or as a proxy for a stronger push/contain? If the Obelisk can't move, then you would really have to decide whether you want to commit the resources to them or not.
You bring up a very good point. Yes the Obelisk does require position based decisions when first making it. However after this point there are no further position based decisions to be made (other than maybe where to cast shield recharge in a battle). Proton Charge, although requireing a AoE targeting action from the player, has no postion based decision.
On July 15 2009 13:22 AeTheReal wrote: By the way, do you know if Obelisks require pylon power now that they don't supply their own?
Yes it does. I am assuming that like all protoss buildings if it loses pylon power it powers down.
Protoss are already very positional as they are. -The Nullifiers shields Force Field allows it to force the enemy to go where the protoss want them to go (because they path they would have taken is sealed) or not go where they don't want them to go. -The HT time-warp (or whatever its called now) makes the enemy very slow, keeping them in their current position -The Phoenix anti-gravity can take units out of play (or more to the point lift them out of the way to prevent blocking of paths). -The motherships vortex can render certain paths nonviable for up to 45 seconds, and can teleport to any location with a friendly Protoss building (rendering everything in teh area cloaked as a bonus) -The stalker can use blink to give it a position advantage (be it out of range, moving to high ground, or for general travel) -The colossus can travel over most obstacles (units) and up cliffs.
And the warp prism and warp-in mechanics...
The Protoss can make armies very quickly anywhere on the map, and they can control both their access and the enemy's access (or lack their of) to many positions on the play field. Protoss are map control.
I personally don't think they need to add more mechanics to give even more of their abilities a positional use, they have enough. It would also render all three mechanics to be very similar, diluting the uniqueness of each race that they are so openly hoping to achieve. I vote no change.
Not to mention that teleporting to pylon power would give more shield recharge and mana batteries to the already mobile army.. and have you considered the effect that a teleportable building would have on the existing teleport ability of the mothership? You would be able to use oblisks to allow motherships to warp to areas with no pre-existing buildings.
I would make it so that each of the three abilities of the Obelisk requires a (low) fixed activation cost and then replenishes energy/shield/"drone speed" in a given AOE. Drones get an speed/energy bar which allows them to harvest more minerals as long as there is energy left and is consumed over time.
In my eyes this would make the three abilities "consistent" in the sense that the mechanic is similar and it allows for a lot of timing options (wait for accumulated energy to power up a lot of drones at once) or spam it to keep a smaller number of drones going (in the long run losing on the "activation cost"). In addition it nicely solves the "stacking problem" since multiple obelisks can be used to replenish energy bars to max at any given time, while (except for activation costs) consuming an amount of energy proportional to the replenished speed/shield etc.
On July 15 2009 14:36 DeCoup wrote: I personally don't think they need to add more mechanics to give even more of their abilities a positional use, they have enough. It would also render all three mechanics to be very similar, diluting the uniqueness of each race that they are so openly hoping to achieve. I vote no change.
Not to mention that teleporting to pylon power would give more shield recharge and mana batteries to the already mobile army.. and have you considered the effect that a teleportable building would have on the existing teleport ability of the mothership? You would be able to use oblisks to allow motherships to warp to areas with no pre-existing buildings.
Only by using a Warp Prism (since the Obelisk would have to teleport to Pylon Power), there would normally already be a building anywhere it is.
But that is an additional argument for Shared Pool (which yes that is a buff, but balanced by a smaller cap, ie 100 per Obelisk instead of 200, also balanced by a decrease in the rate that energy can be extracted from it for Shield and Energy Recharge.
The argument there is that the positional decisions are 1. where to place the Obelisks, 2. which Obelisk to use
EPT
