TLDR: The Obelisk is currently lacking in Energy Tension and Positional-based Decision Making. Both of these issues could be improved by adding some form of mobility such as teleport to any area in pylon space.
Problem#1 Shield/Energy Recharge are not useful enough of the time to compete with Proton Charge
In order for Recharge Shields/Energy to compete with Proton Charge there needs to be ample times where both are viable options. Currently, Recharge Shields suffers from the same disadvantage it did in SC:BW. Armies are not battling at every time in the game. Often they are maneuvering, containing, retreating etc…
Even when armies are fighting it is often not right at your base. It can be in the middle of the map or at the opponent’s base. This means that it is only on seldom occasions that Recharge Shield will be a viable option. The result is the Proton Charge is always the correct choice unless the opponent is attacking your base.
Problem #2 Obelisk does not have Position-based Decision Making
The Orbital Command and Queen both feature Position-based Decision Making. The Orbital Command does this by being able to cast its spells across the entire map. The Queen features it by being able to move around and between bases to cast her spells where needed.
Proton Charge requires the player to place an AoE on his mineral line. This targeting action brings the player back to base (the multi-tasking part of macro). However, right now a player is only going to have one mineral field to cast on. There is no Position-based Decision Making like "which mineral field do I cast Proton Charge on?" This makes the player question why they are being asked to choose the location of the spell since there is only one possible choice.
Suggestion: Give the Obelisk Teleport
I think the best option is to give the Obelisk an ability that allows it to teleport anywhere in pylon power for X energy. This would give the player increased decisions about where they teleport their obelisk to. You can cycle the obelisk through multiple bases recasting Proton Charge on your mineral lines. This provides a reason for Proton Charge to be a AoE targeting spell.
You can also use your Obelisk to buff warp-in attacks. This is risky because if they opponent destroys your warp-prism then the obelisk will power down and you will lose an expensive building. You can also teleport your Obelisk to a base that is being under attack and use it to buff your warriors there. Since teleport to pylon power is similar to Wormhole Transit the Mothership would need to be reworked (maybe make it faster then molasses).
EDIT: Karune recently answered some questions about the Obelisk so ill include them here.
ArcherofAiur: Also, how effective are the Obelisk's Shield and Energy Recharge abilities?
Karune: The Obelisk's shield regeneration is currently at a 1:1 ratio and the energy transfer ability is at a 2:1 ratio (Obelisk energy to unit casting energy). These ratios are of course subject to balance. Originally, the energy transfer ability was at a 1:1 and that proved to be much too easy to fire off consecutive Psi Storms on incoming enemies while defending and attacking.
ArcherofAiur: Are the Shield and Energy Recharge abilities useful enough of the time to compete with Proton Charge? There is allot of concern that they may not be as good an alternative as say comsat is to MULE.
Karune: In my opinion, both recharge abilities are very useful, but often times it is better to build a second Obelisk when you can afford it to then use those abilities. If you are 100% efficient with probe buff, your first Obelisk should never have extra energy for the use of other abilities.
The shield recharge has a lot of uses its just not worth the money in SC:BW sometimes but since the obelisk will always be there it might see some use.
On July 12 2009 11:04 Skyze wrote: why dont they just merge the obelisk and mothership, and give it siegetank range/splash.
/sarcasm
the game is not even in beta yet, wait til you play it before making any stupid theorycrafting ideas.
Dustin Browder himself has said that the Obelisk has problems. "I agree that the Protoss mechanic is the least interesting of the 3. There is not a ton of tension right now on the abilities. Argus Link is really good, but Null Shield sees little use. Compared that to MULE vs. Comsat or the Queen's abilities and the Dark Pylon lacks choices (there is only one right choice most of the time)." - Dustin Browder (http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=15199333450&sid=3000&pageNo=2#26)
Now granted that was before they swapped Null Shield for Shield Recharge. Part of me is inclined to agree with you. Things will be alot clearer at beta. However there is a whole lot of talk about the Obelisks decision making on other forums and I feel it is important for TL to have their fair say as well.
On July 12 2009 11:04 Skyze wrote: why dont they just merge the obelisk and mothership, and give it siegetank range/splash.
/sarcasm
the game is not even in beta yet, wait til you play it before making any stupid theorycrafting ideas.
That's a bit harsh. It is possible to see when something is going to be a problem. He has given very clear reasons for his theory. This was the same process used to fix the macro mechanic, and the same process game companies use to pre-empt problems.
Theorycrafting is possible given the amount of information we have now. If we need to wait for the beta to say anything, we might as well not have the SC2 forum.
Ive saw you post this idea in Bnet, and i say its a cool try However i dont agree with giving it teleport and taking it out of Mothership. In the mothership it make more sense, as it is a big airship that can only teleport where it can acess energies (protoss building need pylon power).
For the Obelisk, giving it teleport just make it more easier to toss, since only one will be needed to power probes (like your example, provided it has energy to teleport and photon charge). And it enpower the "War In" tech even more (it is already too strong by now), as you can give shield to harassing units anywhere. Too much balance problems.
I agree with tsagacity that a walking shield battery is more cool idea, but dificult to balance imo.
I think it's fair enough to have the proton charge be the dominantly best choice for it, as long as its ability is not as strong as the T or Z abilities (at the moment, it does appear to be the weakest, although it probably scales better than the T one).
Edit : I think that an interesting option would actually be to move dark templar down on the tech tree and give it an ability to have detection within what would be its energy field - it would remove some of the luck from pvp while retaining an element of skill, at least if 1 hitting a probe doesn't activate a warning. If it was balanced so that perma casting proton charge leaves you out of the mana to do this, it would involve a tradeoff, especially in the pvp matchup. If you balanced it out so that by playing "safe" you wouldn't have the minerals to have certain build orders, it would involve lots of thought.
And pvz to an extent as well(I could see players skipping a forge and using it instead of cannons vs lurks on a ledge). Call it something like "psionic telemetry", idea being that it could have a burst of psionic power that created a brief telepathic field, revealing the thoughts of hidden things within a limited range. Wouldn't really do much vs Terran, but every ability shouldn't be applicable to every matchup. Actually, if it provided high ground vision and there was a cliff behind the natural or main, it might matter vs all races as well (as of right now, cliffs are probably super imba in such spots due to lack of high ground revealing, and needing an air unit to see up them).
It would be much weaker than comsat or the queen's multiple abilities, but that's fitting. At 200 minerals, it would be 2/3 the cost of a forge + cannon. 2nd edit : It could be more differentiated from comsat by rather than making the area detected, it makes the units within that field detectors for a short time - 10-15 seconds, even if they moved out of it. Makes using it after the probes are dead a bit more useless, and the altered lore for that would be something like it extends a telepathic field that the units around it can then access through the dark protoss psionic energy (whatever it's called. Not the khala, but I know it has a name).
I think teleport may be a little extreme for the race. Their positional play with warp in mechanics is already quite strong. I worry that allowing an oblisk to teleport to a location where you are performing a quick in-base warp in assult may be too powerful. I kind of like the fact that it has some powerful skills but is more limited to defensive uses.
Tsagacity's Idea of giving them legs may be a bit better. It allows positional play without giving it a direct link with warp-in play. You would have to make them fairly independant of pylon power tho (no slow'd or dies if out of pylone power) to maintain a strong racial difference to the zerg (crawler and queen). Maybe allow it to move but not cast unless in pylon power?
It's definetly the least interesting of the three mechanics. And Browder and Archerofaiur are correct about why. Not enough decision making or fighting between the skills, not poitionally based enough and some of the abilities are only useful for base defence. It will definetly be interesting to see what changes they do eventually make if any.
Shield recharge can prove invaluable if you are getting rushed or something similar. If I understood right, protoss opt for an obelisk rather early in the game.
On July 12 2009 14:42 Smu wrote: Shield recharge can prove invaluable if you are getting rushed or something similar. If I understood right, protoss opt for an obelisk rather early in the game.
They said it was about split right now, some dislike getting supply blocked and I would think regular pylon gets faster tech.
What if the Obelisk's shield battery ability is activated by x energy and slowly drains it's energy over time, but will quickly recharge the shields of any friendly unit in a radius around it automatically while it is active? Recharging shields would obviously use up more energy as well and it should be able to recharge the shields of all units within range simultaneously. This ability would be useful to help minimize damage from worker raids and is more effective the more energy the Obelisk has built up.
Well I think that the solution can more uniquely and effectively be found by
1. Shared Obelisk Energy Pool* (more unique than Teleport v. Queen movement) 2. building a Proxy Obelisk in Pylon power to access the Obelisk Network.(the way you would get Obelisk energy onto the battlefield)
However that depends, the "Shared Pool" is better for the Obelisk with its abilities+costs roughly as they are now, expensive but not too expensive.
a "Wormhole" Obelisk [and I would let the Obelisk AND the Mothership both have it, it would increase the uniqueness] Would probably be better if it was more expensive say 300-500 minerals (or minerals and gas), and it more easily maintained Proton Charges (and was also more effective on other abilities)... So that the One Obelisk could maintain 2 Mineral Lines at full charge. [and teleport between them to do so]
Those are the options I would go with. A cheaper Obelisk where ~3 would be needed to maintain 2 mineral lines at full charge, but with a shared energy pool. A more expensive Obelisk where only 1 would be needed to maintain 2 mineral lines at full charge, but with teleport.
*A shared energy pool does alter balance but main issues it raises could be fairly easily dealt with. The biggest one is the indestructible unit, ie My Zealot is next to an Obelisk so now he has the entire energy Pool to restore his shields. 2 components to the solution 1. limit the max energy of the Pool (not 200 per Obelisk but 100... maybe an upgrade in the DTemplar Shrine to make it 150) 2. Limit the Rate of shield recharge (or energy recharge) instead of 75 energy per second make it 25 energy per second. Makes it like a Roach, but Roaches can still be focus fired.
One final point on the "Positional Decision making" remember MBS is in. So if I select 5 different Obelisks, in 5 different places on the map and tell them to cast Proton Charge, the computer doesn't know which one. And if they all share energy, there is no need for me to deal with them seperately. Essentially, select my stored group of Base Obelisks (as opposed to field Obelisks) select Proton Charge select desired mineral line (camera movement) The Obelisk that is nearest the selected AoE casting area is the one that will be selected to cast ot of the community energy pool.
So the "selecting of Location" is actally important, because you are selecting which Obelisk is going to cast it. (not by selecting the Obelisk,but by selecting the Mineral Line)
make the shield recharge an AoE buff like proton charge, either make it so that you target an area and units within gain a shield regen buff for X seconds, or that you target a source of pylon power and for Y seconds it will act as a shield-fountain.
I think the main problem with the obelisk right now is that it's almost always the right decision to make one early on, since it not only gives you a superior economy but also enables you to fight off early rushes thanks to it working like a shield battery. If you made it so that proton charge became a cheap, early upgrade I think people would have to think a little harder about when to make the obelisk.
Overall though I do feel like the obelisk is working out very well, probably the best of the 3 macro mechanics, I just feel a little too accessible at the moment for my taste.
Just a clarification on your final point krikkitone, mbs will "use" the buildings closest to your view first.
Not much idea about what to do about proton charge tension though... It's just the protoss armies are fine without the shield regen, but the increased economy is pretty irreplacable imo... *shrug*
EPT
