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On May 11 2009 22:13 infinity2k9 wrote:
it means more micro which is a good thing to make up for the easier unit selection and production
no, it means less macro. go play wc3 if you like micro and abilities on every unit, it doesn't belong in starcraft. instead of focusing on ways to increase macro to balance the distribution of actions, they just constantly add more micro abilities. that's the problem.
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no need to bring the macro aspect again
it got me + Show Spoiler +
and we already won.
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this will be interesting to see if templar will be used for healing, storm, or merge. so excited :D
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On May 12 2009 00:11 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:
and we already won.
Actually both sides are winning the macro debate. People just arnt going to realize it until the game comes out.
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United States3824 Posts
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It seems to be getting a ton of fucking hate but I rather like it =[
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Just wait until you see the Brood Lord in motion, from how the unit looks from an animation stand point I'd guess that it will rear itself up like a rattlesnake before firing and revealing its belly.
What you all see now is a static screen shot of it moving across the screen, in action it may be very different, plus the old swarm guardians worm motion couldnt have been very intimidating.
I really do think Blizzard is onto a win here..... well aside from the name, I prefer "giant dung flunger"
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well, each shot from a broodlord is going to be like a zealot bomb :D.
I think this makes the unit alot more interesting- for example if we were to face marines backed with several seiged tanks, broodlords firing at the marines would cause the seige tanks to kill all the marines. All of these broodlings could cluster fuck a group of marines as well, making it easier for lurkers to come in to play without being mowed down. Making the brood lord a pretty good anti friendly fire slpash damage unit, if such a thing will be needed for sc2.
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stop being overcritical, most of you guys that whine are clueless
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Those on the side of more macro debate, want more macro than micro, and vice versa for the micro side. What those on the macro side don't realize, is that there is still macro, and macro can still seperate players, as evident watching the BR's (But, again, you only take into account Gosu's), but the game isn't based around it, unlike SCI.
However, I want more micro, not with abilities, but with actually tactical and strategic decisions, that actually *gasp* take more skill, because you are actively engaging your opponent another human being, where as macro is your ability to manage everything that is non unit related.
You see, the exciting parts of SC all have to do with Micro and units dying fast for exciting plays, etc. There will always be top tier players at every game, no matter how casual, or hardcore. So, that arguement of everyone will be the same is proven to be false. If you can cite a few examples, or even one, where the majority of players can beat the top player(s) with any consistency, then you may have some validity, but there are no instances of such.
I'm not advocating no macro, I just want macro that isn't robotic. Personally, I would rather have Auto-Mine stay in, but change its mechanic, where if you waypoint your workers to a mineral, they don't auto spread. So you still have macro, and you still have Auto-Mine, but you still have to be conscious of your workers. I don't like AI taking over too much of the gameplay.
Anyways, I could go one, but it is OOT all ready.
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Aegraen, this is not the place to macro debate again
both sides won (see archerofaiur)
this will derail the thread cause for ever argument there is a counterpart.
end this//
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 11 2009 23:28 Scooge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 22:13 infinity2k9 wrote:
it means more micro which is a good thing to make up for the easier unit selection and production no, it means less macro. go play wc3 if you like micro and abilities on every unit, it doesn't belong in starcraft. instead of focusing on ways to increase macro to balance the distribution of actions, they just constantly add more micro abilities. that's the problem.
Sigh.
SC1 zealot: Nothing.
SC2 zealot: nothing (no, charge is not a user ability, it's a speed buff just like leg enhancement in SC1).
SC1 dragoon - nothing.
SC2 stalker - blink.
SC2 Immortal - Nothing.
SC1 Dark Templar: nothing
SC2 Dark templar: nothing
SC1 HT: Storm, Hallucination
SC2 HT: Storm, shield thingy (forgot what it's called)
SC1 Archon: Nothing.
SC2 Archon: Nothing
SC1 Dark Archon: feedback, maelstrom, mind control
SC2: No dark archon.
SC1: no nullifier
SC2 Nullifier (disruptor): force shield, hallucination
SC1 Corsair: Disruption Web
SC2 Phoenix: Anti-gravity
SC1 Scout: Nothing.
SC2 Warp Ray: Nothing.
SC1 Arbiter: Stasis field, recall
SC2 Mothership: vortex, wormhole transit.
SC1 Carrier: Nothing.
SC2 Carrier: Nothing.
SC1 Reaver: Nothing.
SC2 Colossus: Nothing.
Observers and probes are identical.
SC1 Protoss: 8 spells/abilities.
SC2 Protoss: 8 spells/abilities.
I'm not gonna do the other 2 races but as you can see, it's pretty much the same, so before you complain, make sure you know what you are talking about -_-
And besides, hello, they just added a ton of macro abilities (read Q&A 49).
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Good post, FA. Let's look at the other races:
Terran:
SC1 Marine/Firebat: Stim (2)
SC2 Marine/Marauder: Stim (2) (their "concussive grenade" is passive)
SC2 Reaper: Mine charge
SC1 Ghost: Lockdown, Nuke, Cloak
SC2 Ghost: Snipe, Nuke, Cloak
SC1 Vulture: Spider mines
SC2 Helion: Nothing
SC1 Tank: nothing (I won't count siege mode)
SC2 Tank:
SC2 Thor: Particle cannon (according to this interview.)
SC1 Dropship: Nothing
SC2 Medivac: Heal
SC1 Medic: Restoration, Heal, Optical flare
SC1 Science Vessel: EMP, D-Matrix, Irradiate
SC2 Raven: Hunter-seeker missle, defense drone, auto-turret
SC1 Wraith: Cloak
SC2 Banshee: Cloak
SC1 Goliath/Valkyrie: Nothing
SC2 Viking: Different modes which I won't count, since I hardly think these are the kinds of unit activated abilities we're talking about
SC1 BC: Yamato cannon
SC2 BC: Yamato, Missle pods, d-matrix (unconfirmed what they actually have these days)
Total
SC1: 14
SC2: 15 (16 if you count ground/air mode for the viking)
Zerg:
Discounting burrow, mutate abilities.
SC1 Overlord: Nothing
SC2 Overlord: Excrete creep
SC2 Overseer: Changeling, Transfusion
SC1 Zergling: Nothing
SC2 Zergling: Nothing
SC2 Baneling: Nothing
SC1 Hydralisk: Nothing
SC2 Hydralisk: Nothing
SC2 Roach: Nothing
SC1 Mutalisk: Nothing
SC2 Mutalisk: Nothing
SC1 Guardian: Nothing
SC2: Brood Lord: Nothing (passive ability)
SC1 Queen: Parasite, Spawn broodlings, Ensare
SC2 Queen: Razor plague, Spawn larva, Spawn creep tumour (the only one that really counts here is razor plague, but I'll count all of them)
SC1 Defiler: Plague, Dark Swarm, Consume
SC2 Infestor: Fungal infestation, neural parasite, spawn infested terran (ugh! get rid of that)
Total
SC1: 6
SC2: 9 (but pretty much 7, since Spawn larva is one of the macro abilities, and creep tumour is what a drone "did" in SC1)
Total Overall:
SC1: 6 + 14 + 8 = 28
SC2: 9 (7) + 15 + 8 = 32 (30)
Definitely not as bad as you might think.
However, not all SC1 abilities are used, like restoration, optical flare, nuke, lockdown (ghosts in general), parasite, ensare, spawn broodlings (queen may be sometimes used, but they are certainly not a staple unit), yamato cannon, d-web, scouts in general etc.
So now that we have so many abilities that are potentially worth using, yes it looks like this game is turning into a "micro whorefest" or whatever. Can't blame blizzard for trying to make units/abilities worth using though, can you?
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Very insightful ability comparison. Its no mistake that the number of abilities is so close to the original.
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Well.. this is interesting. I'm glad someone actually took the time to compare the number of abilities between the two. The facts are a lot more encouraging than what a lot of people have been claiming.
Edit: Made more productive
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I just wanna say siege mode should definitely be included. It is THE micro ability of SC1. That and psi storm. I also want to say that I just want the beta to start...PLEASE Blizzard!!
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Well, if you count siege mode, then it's simply there are 29 abilities in SC1, 33 (more like 31) in SC2. No difference.
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It´s hard to actually mesure the abilities like that. For example the Medivacs Heal is automatic, the Battlecruisers 3 abilities mutually exclusive. The Ravens toys are indirect which I guess makes them easier to use.
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On May 10 2009 23:00 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2009 13:45 anch wrote:
Templar the new medic, wtf.
the AoE healing is very WC3. .. Just so you know shield batteries can do AoE healing. Just click on the ground and it will heal all shields in that area. The only AoE heal in WC3 I can think of are the healing wards (unless you want to count heal scrolls).
statues aoe heal, fountains of health, chain heal isnt really aoe but its multiple target heal, alchemist has a spray heal that heals an aoe (even enemy if hes in it), replenishment scroll for human aoe heals too 
Aoe heals are great additions to a game i personally think, knowing exactly the best time to use aoe heals is a skill usually only achieved through experience, it also takes a fast reaction time/micro to be able to hit them properly
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^ Good ability posts up there!!
Researchable abilities is big part of what makes StarCraft so extremely deep! What if they removed Zealot speed upg in SC? There would be no famous +1 timing push and thus removing an entire strategy from the book! That's why it's important that SC2 has many upgradeable abilities aswell.
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EPT
