EPTIdrA + Artosis SC2/MBS discussion - Page 5
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ZhenMiChan
Netherlands1181 Posts
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Standards increase over time. The argument is simple: games set standards by which later games are judged. Doom set a standard which was then upped by hexen, heretic, wolfenstein, later doom games, quake and so on. No one would dare remake doom 1 as an A-class release today, not because it wasn't good during its time, but because subsequent games took the 'good' parts of the game and added more sequentially. I really don't think so. Command & Conquer 3, Warhammer 40k, and Company of Heroes do NOT have MBS, and people love those games. These are all very, very bad examples of what you're trying to say. All of these games have very, very streamlined UIs which do even more than MBS does (permanent automation of unit building to literally keep you at 0 cash for one.), so saying they were favorites is pretty much the cherry on top of what FA was saying. | ||
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ExileStrife
United States170 Posts
What I don't like is the new reinforcement concept. I've seen arguments made about it removing the advantage from the defender which are quite valid in my opinion. On top of that, it trivializes your supply lines and rally points. No longer will a pair of lurkers out in the middle of the map make a terran hesitant to send their mnm's across the map to reinforce while unattended, since now you have safe passage to rejoin the fight. This, combined with the no-defense-advantage, seems like prime ingredients for many, many single fight games. Once someone goes on the offense and takes a minor advantage, what is there to keep him from losing it now? | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5405 Posts
As for Nydus Worms, last I heard they still have a short animation before they start to unload their units (which they do one by one), so I'm sure it'll be possible to counter those in some capacity (in the middle of a battle) too. Imagine a Zerg loads up 40 Zerglings only to have the Nydus Worm blown apart by three Siege Tank blasts when the Terran sees it pop up? That all said, they will still have their uses, but I don't really see the game being "one continuos battle" like many of you believe. Remember that there is a cost associated with these mechanics, so you do trade-off having more units to use them. EDIT: For reference: http://www.starcraftcz.com/game-info-exklusive-qa For emphasis: 4) How complicated will it be to destroy Nydus Worm while moving? In the current build, Nydus Worms are able to be seen while traversing the terrain. You do not need a detector to be able to see it traveling. So the Nydus Worms don't really "remove" rally points. 6) Does the Drop-pod's falling hurt units/buildings in place of falling? The Drop Pods ability has been removed from the Ghost in multiplayer. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On March 04 2009 05:00 SoleSteeler wrote: Phase Prisms can probably be fairly easily focus fired in the right situations, too. Not really. It'd be easy to keep a phase prism safe behind your army while warping in units, it's not as if they need to be anywhere near the range of your enemy's units to do their job. Same thing applies to proxy pylons, really, any player with good multitasking could have one constantly up. It's practically zero-risk, losing a pylon every so often is insignificant compared to the advantage you get from faster reinforcements and it's easy to set one up while the enemy is preoccupied with your units. Or even have a back-up one in some other area. | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
Phase prisms also could some potential for offensive cannons? You would skip the pylon build-time and instantly start cannons while simultaneously reinforcing it if you have a full set of warp gates ready. | ||
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
On March 02 2009 17:58 rushz0rz wrote: Show this to Blizzard. Please | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
Well about the ZvZ discussion concerning roaches, I was thinking a bit.. According to http://www.sc2armory.com/game/zerg/units/roach/ the Roach only seems to be able to attack ground units: Needle Spines Damage: 8 Range: 3 Speed: Normal Targets: Ground Bonus: +8 vs Biological If this is the case, mutalisks should be a direct counter to them, much like they are today vs zerglings. So if you never get mutalisks, but just continue to pump roaches, you will loose to higher-tech/mutalisks. The same happens in ZvZ now, if you tech too late you will loose to mutalisks becaue zerglings won't do enough damage at some point. Look at this match for a perfect example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAhWyvXgVBA...re=channel_page Edit: Great interview/discussion btw. These are great for community and I think also Blizzard appreciates this  | ||
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
On March 04 2009 21:12 lokiM wrote: ^ roaches aren't like zerglings at all, so your point doesn't make any sense. Mutas won't be able to kill a group of roaches before all your drones are dead. Thats like saying in TvT you get wraiths vs mass vultures, the vultures will just kill your economy. That's 1 of the reasons you see vults vs vults in TvT nowadays. Roaches may not be like Zerglings, but they are not like Vultures either. They are slow, making them vulnerable to fast Mutalisks. | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
I don't know though.. but I doubt ZvZ will be roach-only battles. If anything, the roach may be a fresh unit possiblity to go instead of zergling into muta (how it is now). I fear that the muta may become dominant in ZvZ, but let's hope the roach can be a viable option too? Just not too viable. There needs to be a nice unit balance. | ||
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Scamp
United States1086 Posts
Starcraft 2 should be put to a higher standard because of the amount of knowledge we have on SC to use as a basis, but anything seriously overpowered will most likely get patched. Not that I'd support Blizzard just throwing the game out there and just trying to patch all the problems later, it's just something to keep in mind. I don't like seeing people arguing that something is broken when the game isn't even close to being out yet. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5407 Posts
On March 04 2009 06:55 armed_ wrote: Not really. It'd be easy to keep a phase prism safe behind your army while warping in units, it's not as if they need to be anywhere near the range of your enemy's units to do their job. It can be easily fixed by making the Phase Prism -> Pylon change permanent or take (much) moretime. Same thing applies to proxy pylons, really, any player with good multitasking could have one constantly up. It's practically zero-risk, losing a pylon every so often is insignificant compared to the advantage you get from faster reinforcements and it's easy to set one up while the enemy is preoccupied with your units. Or even have a back-up one in some other area. Well, being able to hunt them down would then become a valid skill, just as hunting down Ovies with Cors is. ;] | ||
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
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CowGoMoo
United States428 Posts
I think they need to keep up to date with SC2 more and have all their ducks in a row before posting a video discussion all over the web =/ I could be mistaken though, but I'm pretty certain drop pods were not put back into the game. As to the Muta discussion, I don't think they will be that big of an issue. New unit pathing makes it impossible to "pick off" Marines in SC2. Units move as a super tight clump so Muta micro, even if possible using an insanely large stack, won't be as useful as it was in SC. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On March 05 2009 03:07 maybenexttime wrote: It can be easily fixed by making the Phase Prism -> Pylon change permanent or take (much) moretime. Why would you want to "fix" it? It's a perfectly good mechanic. -_- On March 05 2009 03:07 maybenexttime wrote: Well, being able to hunt them down would then become a valid skill, just as hunting down Ovies with Cors is. ;] Completely different thing. When an ovie is being picked off it's completely defenseless and nowhere near the zerg's army. A protoss player is obviously only going to set up proxy pylons once he's moving out with his army, and if the other player can manage to kill off a pylon that has units constantly appearing next to it and is right next to the protoss' army as it tries to exert map control/pressure and he doesn't suffer significant losses(which doesn't take a lot considering all he's doing is raising the time it takes to reinforce, not as if production in general is slowed down) killing that pylon, then the protoss probably had no chance anyway. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Why would you want to "fix" it? It's a perfectly good mechanic. -_- Personally I would be a little annoyed if every game as P you were more or less required to have a phase prism hovering above your army so you can get instant reinforcements >_< I *loooooove* warp-in, and I love the phase prism -> pylon transformation, I just hope it will be a bit more strategy involved in deciding where to deploy, rather than a constant mini-arcade game of transforming the prism back and forth. In the past, the Mothership used to have an aura you could warp-in to, and I was really worried about this then. The warp prism, due to needing a transform everytime you want to use it, is not as likely to have this problem but it's not completely silly to worry about it. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On March 05 2009 06:39 FrozenArbiter wrote: Personally I would be a little annoyed if every game as P you were more or less required to have a phase prism hovering above your army so you can get instant reinforcements >_< If SC2 has any semblance of balance, you will have to make constant use of warp-in for instant reinforcements. If the unit strengths were balanced for the Protoss army to be able to manage without it, then there would be an obvious imbalance once players start to use it. Furthermore, even if those proposed phase prism nerfs were implemented(which they shouldn't be for a purely personal dislike), there's still the issue of how easy it is to set up proxy pylons. Complaining that constant use of warp-in lacks strategy is like complaining that someone playing late-game TvZ needs to produce out of a lot of buildings or that Zerg has to get defilers late-game against Terran or that spider mines are necessary in TvP. Anything that gives a significant advantage is going to become a necessary part of the metagame; if a player can choose to forego something like that and still win then there must be a huge imbalance in their favour. The fact that all these things are necessary doesn't mean that there's no strategy involved, they merely set the stage on which the strategy takes place. | ||
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