EPTIdrA + Artosis SC2/MBS discussion - Page 2
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
On March 02 2009 17:56 alphafuzard wrote: I'm kinda a SC2 n00b, but from what I've seen, many (all?) protoss players make proxy pylons solely for the purpose of warping in units. In this way, you wont have to move back to your base to find pylon power because it will be very near your front line ^.^ Btw, you sound pretty disrepectful, even if it wasn't your intent. I would back off a bit, these guys are just trying to do something interesting analysis for the benefit of others, not to put down anyone. Yes they indeed make Proxy Pylons but this does not make it any easier as you have to go to that pylon instead of your base not diff in time as going too your base is just double tap hotkey this is the same for going to that proxy pylon. Also you won't be able to manage your units for alonger amount of time then terran because Z click Z click Z click 20 times takes longer then drag select units click on droppod. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
On March 02 2009 18:35 Ziph wrote: Yes they indeed make Proxy Pylons but this does not make it any easier as you have to go to that pylon instead of your base not diff in time as going too your base is just double tap hotkey this is the same for going to that proxy pylon. Also you won't be able to manage your units for alonger amount of time then terran because Z click Z click Z click 20 times takes longer then drag select units click on droppod. It's still a bit easier. Macroing from 10gates in sc is still more than 1zzzzzzzzzz. I mean you have to use your mouse more than on the pylon, since you have to target 10 different gates. Anyways good video!! | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
It's easily solved by making the pylon transformation permanent tho (or at least take some time to turn back into the prism). | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
On March 02 2009 19:18 FrozenArbiter wrote: It's because toss have Warp Prisms/Phase Prisms (not sure which name they go by currently), which can turn into a pylon on a moments notice (shuttle/pylon hybrid). It's easily solved by making the pylon transformation permanent tho (or at least take some time to turn back into the prism). Ah true totally forgot about that, this makes it have about the same multitask requirements as terran and zerg as you gotta deploy it everytime you move. | ||
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Creationism
China505 Posts
i think ive been really disapproving of sc2 cuz of the whole ezier thing, cuz im one of those ppl when i play games, n get the selection scrn of difficulty, only see: "fag", "still kinda gay", "normal". obviously, i pick normal. so when it seemed like.. all the hard stuff that ppl put hours and hours into practicing (micro/macro mechanics) become automine-mbs, it really made me kinda wanna kill dustin browder. but in light of that new stuff, hm... maybe it really will be a good game. only the beta and lots n lots of time will tell. I REALLY want this to be a good game, or entertain me to D3 lol. | ||
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Kim_Hyun_Han
706 Posts
10/10 loved the lil stick guys on the board | ||
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wrags
United States379 Posts
also somewhat related to mbs, i don't know if they've changed it but as far as i know rally points still are attack-move instead of just move and i'm sure the pathfinding ai has been improved so that maps won't require you to sort of micro your units around, so that you would need to rally them at a certain spot, (blue storm etc) and i know it may be a little far-fetched but as far as having lower level players rallying the same amount of units against a higher level player i could see some someone with better multitasking using mules or something of the sort to disrupt the attack move aspect of the rally. the point being i could see re-rallying constantly another slight 'macro' aspect in higher level play | ||
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Vex
Ireland454 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5866 Posts
I really liked the point about multiple fronts. It's nothing new, but some pro-MBS people just don't get it. It's not technically possible to micro two battle at the same time, so you're risking A LOT by multifronting. edit: I also agree about MBS/auto-mining not being that bad. I'm not pro- or anti-MBS either - I'm pro-multitasking and pro different playstyles. I too think those new mechanics can generate just as much multi-tasking related to macro as SBS and manual-mining, they just need a lot of improvements right now. | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
On March 02 2009 20:27 maybenexttime wrote: Aren't they using some outdated info at times? Like weren't the Drop Pods removed like a year ago? I really liked the point about multiple fronts. It's nothing new, but some pro-MBS people just don't get it. It's not technically possible to micro two battle at the same time, so you're risking A LOT by multifronting. edit: I also agree about MBS/auto-mining not being that bad. I'm not pro- or anti-MBS either - I'm pro-multitasking and pro different playstyles. I too think those new mechanics can generate just as much multi-tasking related to macro as SBS and manual-mining, they just need a lot of improvements right now. I think you are outdated =p. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5866 Posts
How so? They are definitely not talking about MULEs or Supply Drop since they evidently mention troops movement. Ghost used to have an ability that allowed him to drop Drop Pods in the early builds of alpha (SC2, obviously). It seems like that's what they're talking about. So did they bring those back? O_o | ||
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dibban
Sweden1279 Posts
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wrags
United States379 Posts
On March 02 2009 21:39 maybenexttime wrote: How so? They are definitely not talking about MULEs or Supply Drop since they evidently mention troops movement. Ghost used to have an ability that allowed him to drop Drop Pods in the early builds of alpha (SC2, obviously). It seems like that's what they're talking about. So did they bring those back? O_o i was kinda wondering that as well, it's somewhat unclear in the video as for protoss warp in - what about changing pylons to upgrade into dark pylons and warp-in is only usable on dark pylon power? the idea obviously is that you sacrifice economy for proxy, you can't use the dark pylon for your probes that still leaves phase prisms but maybe adding energy to them and putting a medium cost on it may change it a bit | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
No, the Drop Pods which can be used for troop movement were cut from the game long time ago. Protoss have warp in, Zerg Nydus worm and Terran nothing. Oh wait, they can drop bigger scv which cannot built anything and has timed life :/. But that goes nicely with common theme for SC2 "fuck Terran as much as possible"... | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Hey, Artosis! Nice to see you on the Armory.  Interesting discussion you had with IdrA. I agree with some of your points, but I also disagree on some others:- I agree that Bio will become less useful against Zerg, but more useful in other matchups. I think this was an intentional tradeoff on Blizzard`s part, since Bio was highly useful against Zerg, but not nearly so against the other two races. With this change, I think things will be more balanced out and Terrans will have more options to choose from. - I also agree that the Siege Tank will be less used in StarCraft II. Again, I see this as an intentional tradeoff on Blizzard`s part. The fact is, the Siege Tank was too iconic since it was seen as a must for nearly every kind of Terran strategy. However, this forced Terrans to nearly always play positional warfare, thus making Terran gameplay quite stale. With this and many other changes (Mines being late game, Viking`s flexibility, Vulture gone...), I think Terran gameplay has the potential to become much more mobile and varied then before. - I completely disagree with your assessment of ZvZ in SC2. This is not to say that Roaches will not play a pivotal role in ZvZ, I just think you underestimate the value of other units. Since you mentioned Scourges, it suprises me you saw no potential in Baneling use in ZvZ. It`s splash damage, combined with some focus fire, could make for some very micro intensive battles in ZvZ. Zerglings are much more mobile then Roaches, making them perfect for flanking and harassement. Also, from reading the TeamLiquid article about the BlizzCon build, it seems that Spine Crawlers deal with Roaches preety well (which is not suprising considering their long range and 10 damage against Armoured units). Lastly, the Infestor seems like it has potential for some really insane spellcaster battles since both Neural Parasite and Fungal Infestation have the potential of turning the tide of a battle. Of course, this is not mentioning any of the other potentially useful units (for example, I think air might still be viable in SC2). So I seriously doubt ZvZ will come down to pure Roaches. -Interesting thought about Mutalisk stacking. I honestly never though of that and it might be a valid point, although I imagine Mutalisks will more engage in direct combat now with the Medics gone. Still, even if you can get 40 Mutalisks (4000 Gas? Ouch...), I imagine your opponent will have enough defence to counter by that point. Also, Turrets now do more damage to Mutalisks (14 instead of 10) and have a preety good range. - Interesting Macro discussion. While I am all for interesting macro mechanics to replace the old monotonous ones, I am rather neutral about them until we can see how effective they are. However, while I agree that macromanagement needs to be preserved, I think the effects of Automining are exaggerated. This is not to say it has no effect, I just think that it`s effect is smaller then people will lead you to believe. There is more to worker management then just ordering them to mine such as actual production of workers, maintaining a proper number of them, transfering them to expansions etc. Overall, I think MBS hurts macromanagement a lot more then Automining. Anyway, nice work. Keep it up! | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
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liger13
United States1060 Posts
 but otherwise, sweet video | ||
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