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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
for those of you who can't get the video to work on scforall.com here are the 3 youtube links: PART 1: PART 2: PART 3: **EDIT** sry about any problems watching the video. we're working to fix it right now. IdrA and I discuss what is known about the game, theory behind some matchups, and most importantly the new macro mechanics + MBS. I'm really interested to see peoples opinions and arguments for//against what we say, so go ahead and let me know. thx hope u enjoy. | ||
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Yaqoob
Canada3323 Posts
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Phrogs!
Japan521 Posts
thanks artosis edit: I'm halfway through this long video and I just wanted to add this is what Ive been wanting for ages - high level discussion of SC2 matchups from players who have a clue. really very nice | ||
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Rho_
United States971 Posts
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
:o | ||
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
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404.Delirium
United States1190 Posts
On March 02 2009 16:44 Yaqoob wrote: This is the first time that a video on scforall will not work for me | ||
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Scorch
Austria3371 Posts
From what I've seen by now: a) The talk goes quite in-depth, which is great. Also, it never occurred to me that stacked mutas + unlimited selection is ultra powerful, although it's kinda obvious  b) Idra fidgetting drives me crazy. | ||
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EGLzGaMeR
United States1867 Posts
this | ||
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ZoW
United States3983 Posts
Nice discussion, very well done. I loved the insight you guys gave to the various matchups, especially on ZvZ. | ||
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Yaqoob
Canada3323 Posts
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
Personally, I really dislike the constant reinforcement thing (drop pods, warp gates, nydus worms). One key point about Starcraft is the idea of the defender's advantage. The defender gets to set up his army beforehand, and also has a much shorter route for reinforcement. This means that building a tiny advantage will generally not be enough to ride your way to victory. In SC2, the ability to directly reinforce your army means that the defender loses this crucial advantage and a very small victory could lead to an easy victory. It seems like SC2 games will turn out short and action-packed. I doubt very many 30+ minute games will occur when one can so easily capitalize on an advantage. I could see how this would be good from a spectator's point of view, but as a player, I prefer the old method. Anyways, great analysis. It was really fun to listen to. | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
Yes Indeed all you do is Z click Z click Z click but thats not whats it about. You have to place the units you want to warp in IN PYLON power, this makes you go back too your base where pylon power is and thus leaving your army aka multitasking. Then 2, drop pods is not harder at all as you can just select ALL your units and right click on your drop pod while if you have 20 warp-gates you have to z click 20 times. Warp In requires more apm and almost as much if not the same amount of multitasking. This Protoss bashing makes me sick Same about the DT OH SO OVERPOWERED. It gets really anyoing please just stfu about it. | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
edit: the roach thing - that's exactly what happened in warcraft 3 in UD vs NE, where even the top UD players like Lucifer / Sweet were choosing NE mirror against the top korean NE's and just went for the randomness of mass huntress wars. | ||
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x89titan
Philippines1130 Posts
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On March 02 2009 17:45 Ziph wrote: What is this bullshit about that you don't need too move your screen for warp in but you do for drop pods. Yes Indeed all you do is Z click Z click Z click but thats not whats it about. You have to place the units you want to warp in IN PYLON power, this makes you go back too your base where pylon power is and thus leaving your army aka multitasking. Then 2, drop pods is not harder at all as you can just select ALL your units and right click on your drop pod while if you have 20 warp-gates you have to z click 20 times. Warp In requires more apm and almost as much if not the same amount of multitasking. This Protoss bashing makes me sick Same about the DT OH SO OVERPOWERED. It gets really anyoing please just stfu about it. I'm kinda a SC2 n00b, but from what I've seen, many (all?) protoss players make proxy pylons solely for the purpose of warping in units. In this way, you wont have to move back to your base to find pylon power because it will be very near your front line ^.^ Btw, you sound pretty disrepectful, even if it wasn't your intent. I would back off a bit, these guys are just trying to do something interesting analysis for the benefit of others, not to put down anyone. | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
On March 02 2009 17:56 alphafuzard wrote: I'm kinda a SC2 n00b, but from what I've seen, many (all?) protoss players make proxy pylons solely for the purpose of warping in units. In this way, you wont have to move back to your base to find pylon power because it will be very near your front line ^.^ Btw, you sound pretty disrepectful, even if it wasn't your intent. I would back off a bit, these guys are just trying to do something interesting analysis for the benefit of others, not to put down anyone. Yes they indeed make Proxy Pylons but this does not make it any easier as you have to go to that pylon instead of your base not diff in time as going too your base is just double tap hotkey this is the same for going to that proxy pylon. Also you won't be able to manage your units for alonger amount of time then terran because Z click Z click Z click 20 times takes longer then drag select units click on droppod. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
On March 02 2009 18:35 Ziph wrote: Yes they indeed make Proxy Pylons but this does not make it any easier as you have to go to that pylon instead of your base not diff in time as going too your base is just double tap hotkey this is the same for going to that proxy pylon. Also you won't be able to manage your units for alonger amount of time then terran because Z click Z click Z click 20 times takes longer then drag select units click on droppod. It's still a bit easier. Macroing from 10gates in sc is still more than 1zzzzzzzzzz. I mean you have to use your mouse more than on the pylon, since you have to target 10 different gates. Anyways good video!! | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
It's easily solved by making the pylon transformation permanent tho (or at least take some time to turn back into the prism). | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
On March 02 2009 19:18 FrozenArbiter wrote: It's because toss have Warp Prisms/Phase Prisms (not sure which name they go by currently), which can turn into a pylon on a moments notice (shuttle/pylon hybrid). It's easily solved by making the pylon transformation permanent tho (or at least take some time to turn back into the prism). Ah true totally forgot about that, this makes it have about the same multitask requirements as terran and zerg as you gotta deploy it everytime you move. | ||
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Creationism
China505 Posts
i think ive been really disapproving of sc2 cuz of the whole ezier thing, cuz im one of those ppl when i play games, n get the selection scrn of difficulty, only see: "fag", "still kinda gay", "normal". obviously, i pick normal. so when it seemed like.. all the hard stuff that ppl put hours and hours into practicing (micro/macro mechanics) become automine-mbs, it really made me kinda wanna kill dustin browder. but in light of that new stuff, hm... maybe it really will be a good game. only the beta and lots n lots of time will tell. I REALLY want this to be a good game, or entertain me to D3 lol. | ||
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Kim_Hyun_Han
706 Posts
10/10 loved the lil stick guys on the board | ||
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wrags
United States379 Posts
also somewhat related to mbs, i don't know if they've changed it but as far as i know rally points still are attack-move instead of just move and i'm sure the pathfinding ai has been improved so that maps won't require you to sort of micro your units around, so that you would need to rally them at a certain spot, (blue storm etc) and i know it may be a little far-fetched but as far as having lower level players rallying the same amount of units against a higher level player i could see some someone with better multitasking using mules or something of the sort to disrupt the attack move aspect of the rally. the point being i could see re-rallying constantly another slight 'macro' aspect in higher level play | ||
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Vex
Ireland454 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5555 Posts
I really liked the point about multiple fronts. It's nothing new, but some pro-MBS people just don't get it. It's not technically possible to micro two battle at the same time, so you're risking A LOT by multifronting. edit: I also agree about MBS/auto-mining not being that bad. I'm not pro- or anti-MBS either - I'm pro-multitasking and pro different playstyles. I too think those new mechanics can generate just as much multi-tasking related to macro as SBS and manual-mining, they just need a lot of improvements right now. | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
On March 02 2009 20:27 maybenexttime wrote: Aren't they using some outdated info at times? Like weren't the Drop Pods removed like a year ago? I really liked the point about multiple fronts. It's nothing new, but some pro-MBS people just don't get it. It's not technically possible to micro two battle at the same time, so you're risking A LOT by multifronting. edit: I also agree about MBS/auto-mining not being that bad. I'm not pro- or anti-MBS either - I'm pro-multitasking and pro different playstyles. I too think those new mechanics can generate just as much multi-tasking related to macro as SBS and manual-mining, they just need a lot of improvements right now. I think you are outdated =p. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5555 Posts
How so? They are definitely not talking about MULEs or Supply Drop since they evidently mention troops movement. Ghost used to have an ability that allowed him to drop Drop Pods in the early builds of alpha (SC2, obviously). It seems like that's what they're talking about. So did they bring those back? O_o | ||
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dibban
Sweden1279 Posts
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wrags
United States379 Posts
On March 02 2009 21:39 maybenexttime wrote: How so? They are definitely not talking about MULEs or Supply Drop since they evidently mention troops movement. Ghost used to have an ability that allowed him to drop Drop Pods in the early builds of alpha (SC2, obviously). It seems like that's what they're talking about. So did they bring those back? O_o i was kinda wondering that as well, it's somewhat unclear in the video as for protoss warp in - what about changing pylons to upgrade into dark pylons and warp-in is only usable on dark pylon power? the idea obviously is that you sacrifice economy for proxy, you can't use the dark pylon for your probes that still leaves phase prisms but maybe adding energy to them and putting a medium cost on it may change it a bit | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
No, the Drop Pods which can be used for troop movement were cut from the game long time ago. Protoss have warp in, Zerg Nydus worm and Terran nothing. Oh wait, they can drop bigger scv which cannot built anything and has timed life :/. But that goes nicely with common theme for SC2 "fuck Terran as much as possible"... | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Hey, Artosis! Nice to see you on the Armory. Interesting discussion you had with IdrA. I agree with some of your points, but I also disagree on some others:- I agree that Bio will become less useful against Zerg, but more useful in other matchups. I think this was an intentional tradeoff on Blizzard`s part, since Bio was highly useful against Zerg, but not nearly so against the other two races. With this change, I think things will be more balanced out and Terrans will have more options to choose from. - I also agree that the Siege Tank will be less used in StarCraft II. Again, I see this as an intentional tradeoff on Blizzard`s part. The fact is, the Siege Tank was too iconic since it was seen as a must for nearly every kind of Terran strategy. However, this forced Terrans to nearly always play positional warfare, thus making Terran gameplay quite stale. With this and many other changes (Mines being late game, Viking`s flexibility, Vulture gone...), I think Terran gameplay has the potential to become much more mobile and varied then before. - I completely disagree with your assessment of ZvZ in SC2. This is not to say that Roaches will not play a pivotal role in ZvZ, I just think you underestimate the value of other units. Since you mentioned Scourges, it suprises me you saw no potential in Baneling use in ZvZ. It`s splash damage, combined with some focus fire, could make for some very micro intensive battles in ZvZ. Zerglings are much more mobile then Roaches, making them perfect for flanking and harassement. Also, from reading the TeamLiquid article about the BlizzCon build, it seems that Spine Crawlers deal with Roaches preety well (which is not suprising considering their long range and 10 damage against Armoured units). Lastly, the Infestor seems like it has potential for some really insane spellcaster battles since both Neural Parasite and Fungal Infestation have the potential of turning the tide of a battle. Of course, this is not mentioning any of the other potentially useful units (for example, I think air might still be viable in SC2). So I seriously doubt ZvZ will come down to pure Roaches. -Interesting thought about Mutalisk stacking. I honestly never though of that and it might be a valid point, although I imagine Mutalisks will more engage in direct combat now with the Medics gone. Still, even if you can get 40 Mutalisks (4000 Gas? Ouch...), I imagine your opponent will have enough defence to counter by that point. Also, Turrets now do more damage to Mutalisks (14 instead of 10) and have a preety good range. - Interesting Macro discussion. While I am all for interesting macro mechanics to replace the old monotonous ones, I am rather neutral about them until we can see how effective they are. However, while I agree that macromanagement needs to be preserved, I think the effects of Automining are exaggerated. This is not to say it has no effect, I just think that it`s effect is smaller then people will lead you to believe. There is more to worker management then just ordering them to mine such as actual production of workers, maintaining a proper number of them, transfering them to expansions etc. Overall, I think MBS hurts macromanagement a lot more then Automining. Anyway, nice work. Keep it up! | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
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liger13
United States1060 Posts
but otherwise, sweet video | ||
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Tritanis
Poland344 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5422 Posts
Still good video overall! edit: and I don't really see stacking 40 mutas at once to be a huge problem. I fully agree that there needs to be a solid counter to mutas (or just clumped air units in general). However, it obviously costs a LOT to be able to get that many, so it should be somewhat powerful. Also, if it was so game breaking, wouldn't Zergs be doing something similar now? Say, 3 hotkeys of mutas. Sure it takes a bit more control than it would in SC2, but it should still be "as powerful" and I'm sure people have tried it. Yet you don't really see that. Then again, maybe you guys will be right when the beta comes out. | ||
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omninmo
2349 Posts
Im really starting to think sc2 might be alright...mbs...fine. new macro pageantry...fine. every race with wc3 inverted town portal though... zerg has nydus worm unit bomb toss has warpgate unit bomb terran has droppod unit bomb. macro seems to be very important in sc2 but it is arcade style macro with unit bombs. not chess style (as BW was) where the masters are seperated from the greats just by subtle nuances of army positioning and impeccable forethought. | ||
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WolfStar
United Kingdom155 Posts
[B] every race with wc3 inverted town portal though... LOL it really makes me laugh how people are still finding ridiculous WC3 comparisons to moan about! For a start reverse town portal is the dumbest thing I have read all day and secondly there are constraints and micro/macro involved for all races which make it nothing like a TP reverse or otherwise. Wolf. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5422 Posts
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omninmo
2349 Posts
On March 03 2009 00:51 WolfStar wrote: LOL it really makes me laugh how people are still finding ridiculous WC3 comparisons to moan about! For a start reverse town portal is the dumbest thing I have read all day and secondly there are constraints and micro/macro involved for all races which make it nothing like a TP reverse or otherwise. Wolf. Hmm, the wolfstar must be obscured tonight. perhaps you lost your way and wandered into a troll's cave? first off, im not moaning. im just callin it like i see it and also ...i cant wait to play this game. now, why is reverse town portal dumb? thats what it is. in wc3 there is a mechanic to safely wisk away one's battling army home to safety. in sc2 there is a mechanic which wisks safe base units to the battle field and into danger. just like wc3 there will be long drawn out battles. the lifespan of each unit will be cherished and armies are much less expendable. also, what micro/macro constraints are involved with the unit bombs? granted i have not played sc2 once, i would say the micro involves selecting infinite units and right clicking them into nydus worm or drop pod and targeting the landzone. artosis explained the toss warp-in micro very clearly. the macro involved is being able to produce the desired units (which is dependant upon your economy). i miss your point sir about micro/macro constraints and how this relates to the portal mechanisms of war3 or sc2. | ||
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wrags
United States379 Posts
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omninmo
2349 Posts
On March 03 2009 01:12 wrags wrote: could someone please link a source for the drop pod being able to drop things other than a mule yes, that would certainly clarify a few things. i thought artosis mentioned this. i could be wrong and if so then my arcade comments lose about 33.3% of their force | ||
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ZeroCartin
Costa Rica2390 Posts
Nice vid! | ||
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RA
Latvia791 Posts
But I don't agree about ZvZ roach vs roach only. It's the same as lings, roach vs roach and then to mutas since roaches don't have air attack. Roach vs roach can't be just A-move cuz with their regen upgraded they will randomly attack any other enemy which makes their regen tick, so you'll have to use your micro anyways to snipe opponents roaches. | ||
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lwstupidus
United States74 Posts
Asem: Anyone can play it, it's not like pro basketball, if you're not tall, you can't play basketball. Anyone in the world can sit down and play Starcraft. This has to be some sort of joke...? | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
And the point you're missing on the MBS multitask argument is multiharass indeed. If you pay attention to it, you'll notice that blizzard is even adding more multiharassing tools on purpose. There are much more things you can do to harass and much more things you can do to counter harass. Units like colossus, reapers and nydus worms can bring harassing to the next level. Just think about how complex the war of trying to constantly find a breach to warp in vs constantly trying to scout warp ins can be. And that's just one example, think of all the possibilies that come with vikings, overlord creep + sunkens, infestors, stalker blink, completly swaping strats with salvage + addons. I mean, many people argue that in sc1 if you had more free time to do stuff because of MBS you wouldn't have anything to do, you'd just cross your arms and wait. But you cannot say the same for sc2, there's a shitload of new stuff to do with your spare time. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On March 03 2009 03:31 lwstupidus wrote: Artosis: Someone told me a long time ago, I asked Asem, why do you love this game so much? Asem: Anyone can play it, it's not like pro basketball, if you're not tall, you can't play basketball. Anyone in the world can sit down and play Starcraft. This has to be some sort of joke...? It kinda makes sense. I would estimate at least 90% of the population is physically capable of maintaining 200+ apm over a 20 minute span. On the other hand, I would estimate less than 5% of the population is capable of slam-dunking a basketball. This isn't to say that anyone can master sc, it does take talent, hard-work, etc. but nearly everyone is capable of playing competitively if they put enough work into it. | ||
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RyanS
United States620 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
About what I've gathered I feel very similar to what Artosis says in the end there about MBS/Automining and I'm very hopeful that this will be even more finetuned and balanced once we hit Beta (Can you guys imagine this game isnt even in beta stage? rofl..). Jesus.. This made me so hungry for SC2  <3 | ||
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Scooge
Iceland144 Posts
You're also using Idra as a guest, who I personally can't stand. He hasn't really shown to me he even understands SC well enough and he's some sort of expert on SC2? | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
nice convo tho | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 03 2009 05:14 PH wrote: I totally agree with what IdrA said at the end...MBS+Automine are problems Blizz could have and should have not run into in the first place. I'm sorry but not adding MBS would have created just as big of a problem, just not with the same people. Probably bigger (in terms of hurt sales). | ||
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littlechava
United States7218 Posts
On March 03 2009 05:52 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm sorry but not adding MBS would have created just as big of a problem, just not with the same people. Probably bigger (in terms of hurt sales). why? craploads of people still bought the original sc without them On March 03 2009 00:22 SoleSteeler wrote: and I don't really see stacking 40 mutas at once to be a huge problem. I fully agree that there needs to be a solid counter to mutas (or just clumped air units in general). However, it obviously costs a LOT to be able to get that many, so it should be somewhat powerful. Also, if it was so game breaking, wouldn't Zergs be doing something similar now? Say, 3 hotkeys of mutas. Sure it takes a bit more control than it would in SC2, but it should still be "as powerful" and I'm sure people have tried it. Yet you don't really see that. seriously? no, 3 groups of mutas being controlled at the same time cant be compared to controlling one group of 40 mutas. 3 groups of mutas would be impossible to control in unison. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5555 Posts
On March 03 2009 07:13 littlechava wrote: why? craploads of people still bought the original sc without them seriously? no, 3 groups of mutas being controlled at the same time cant be compared to controlling one group of 40 mutas. 3 groups of mutas would be impossible to control in unison. First of all, people have different expectations these days. Secondly, imagine using Warp-in without MBS - that'd be a CHORE. They'd have to resort to some artificial restrictions like one building per hotkey or something, and that's never good. | ||
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ocoini
648 Posts
On March 03 2009 07:31 maybenexttime wrote: First of all, people have different expectations these days. Secondly, imagine using Warp-in without MBS - that'd be a CHORE. They'd have to resort to some artificial restrictions like one building per hotkey or something, and that's never good. Nah, just add a warpin rally point, have the units warp in on location after completing to build. | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5422 Posts
On March 03 2009 07:13 littlechava wrote: seriously? no, 3 groups of mutas being controlled at the same time cant be compared to controlling one group of 40 mutas. 3 groups of mutas would be impossible to control in unison. Yeah, after thinking about it some more you're probably right. It still costs a fuck load though to make 40 mutalisks. And if there is a proper air counter, the point is moot anyway. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
why? craploads of people still bought the original sc without them Craploads of people purchased dune 2 and doom 1. Doesn't mean we're going back to them to pull out mechanics and graphics when decades of history in game making have raised the standards.Like seriously, would you go back to playing pong? Obviously not. | ||
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epicdoom
United States489 Posts
On March 03 2009 03:31 lwstupidus wrote: Artosis: Someone told me a long time ago, I asked Asem, why do you love this game so much? Asem: Anyone can play it, it's not like pro basketball, if you're not tall, you can't play basketball. Anyone in the world can sit down and play Starcraft. This has to be some sort of joke...? Nate Robinson begs to differ ![[image loading]](http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9271/naterobinsondunks.jpg) | ||
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Scamp
United States1086 Posts
In this case, I'd argue almost anyone can play basketball. Even if they have no legs. It's not 100 percent necessary to be tall in order to play it at the highest level, but it's certainly a factor. Despite this, people still play it an enjoy it even if they're not at that level. Anyone can pick up a ball and play basketball. Is there any way this can stop now? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I played football against him Tackled him and everything! He is a 1 man MONSTER | ||
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Shadowfury333
Canada314 Posts
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
i remember playing one game of it vs a computer and the game just would not end because units keep coming out of no where | ||
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EGMachine
United States1643 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
also, is it just me, or has IdrA lost quite a bit of muscle mass since his Broodsport? | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On March 03 2009 10:04 L wrote: Craploads of people purchased dune 2 and doom 1. Doesn't mean we're going back to them to pull out mechanics and graphics when decades of history in game making have raised the standards. Like seriously, would you go back to playing pong? Obviously not. Careful you're getting precariously close to the "Dune argument" banned in the SC2 forum guidelines  UPDATE 2008/03/28 From now on, anyone using the "Dune argument" will be temp banned. No warnings, just banned. For those of you unaware of what it is, here's an explanation: The "Dune argument" is that if we are so worried about skill, and think MBS is so detrimental to this, why don't we revert back to the Dune UI, where you could only select one unit at a time. You're probably okay since you're just using Dune as a reference and not the whole argument, but I would be careful with the word "Dune" when arguing about MBS | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On March 03 2009 10:04 L wrote: Craploads of people purchased dune 2 and doom 1. Doesn't mean we're going back to them to pull out mechanics and graphics when decades of history in game making have raised the standards. Doom 1? Raised standards compared to it? I beg to differ, games have lowered standards. Games that have strayed towards being more like Doom 1 have been some of the best FPSes of the past few years (Painkiller, Serious Sam). Compare Crysis to Doom 1? Which is better. Look past the graphics and Doom 1 is clearly the superior, lack of mouselook or not. But it's a terrible analogy anyway and completely irrelevant. Starcraft is not Doom nor is it Dune. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
It seems you are all trying damned hard to misunderstand something that's quite simple. Regardless of wether MBS is a good thing or not, the fact of the matter is that NOT including it would have caused everybit as much of an outrage as its inclusion did, probably more. Anyway, L's Dune example was appropriate, the Dune ban is more about avoiding the perpetual cycle of "omg go back to dune" vs "omg interactive movie". | ||
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Kim_Hyun_Han
706 Posts
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
On March 03 2009 22:57 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote: i think i read somewhere that rob pardo was against mbs and automine in star2 It would be nice to have a source for that. I have read this around the internet, but no one who claimed it has actually provided a source. | ||
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Kim_Hyun_Han
706 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On March 03 2009 22:48 FrozenArbiter wrote: -_- Mechanics (the UI) and Graphics have certainly been raised significantly since the days of Dune and Doom, which was his point. It seems you are all trying damned hard to misunderstand something that's quite simple. Regardless of wether MBS is a good thing or not, the fact of the matter is that NOT including it would have caused everybit as much of an outrage as its inclusion did, probably more. Anyway, L's Dune example was appropriate, the Dune ban is more about avoiding the perpetual cycle of "omg go back to dune" vs "omg interactive movie". I really don't think so. Command & Conquer 3, Warhammer 40k, and Company of Heroes do NOT have MBS, and people love those games, ESPECIALLY the "omg starcraft is just a gay clickfest" demographic. It's not a clickfest to them because of the lack of automining or mbs, it's because of seeing people play BGH, how fast units die compared to other RTS, how someone microing a vulture can do what he does, how there's no smart cast/auto cast (which hasn't changed), etc. They don't realize the relevance of macro and the majority of them think that if someone has that many units they're probably "hacking". People are still going to think Starcraft 2 is a "gay clickfest" and they won't even NOTICE MBS and Automine. They hate starcraft because "all you have to do is spam (insert the word zergling, hydralisk, or mutalisk here)s". People's issues with Starcraft 2 will be the EXACT SAME and will have very little to do about MBS or Automine. David Sirlin was complaining about Blizzard keeping the game mechanically difficult compared to the old one even with MBS and Automine, I doubt the two features swayed him in any way (Which is extremely odd considering he played Super Turbo, one of the more mechanically difficult fighting games... then again, he played only mechanically easy characters). When Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix came out I saw posts various sites calling it a terrible game that can only be enjoyed by "pros"... not because of the difficulty of the moves or combos or anything of that nature.. but because the poster claimed that "CAPCOM DISABLED BLOCKING ONLINE" or "You only have to spam one move". or other nonsense. These people raging about stuff that's not even in the game and won't ever be. I bet you reviews will talk about people spamming zerglings in multiplayer and they won't even NOTICE the UI. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On March 04 2009 01:44 anotak wrote: I really don't think so. Command & Conquer 3, Warhammer 40k, and Company of Heroes do NOT have MBS, and people love those games, ESPECIALLY the "omg starcraft is just a gay clickfest" demographic. It's not a clickfest to them because of the lack of automining or mbs, it's because of seeing people play BGH, how fast units die compared to other RTS, how someone microing a vulture can do what he does, how there's no smart cast/auto cast (which hasn't changed), etc. They don't realize the relevance of macro and the majority of them think that if someone has that many units they're probably "hacking". People are still going to think Starcraft 2 is a "gay clickfest" and they won't even NOTICE MBS and Automine. They hate starcraft because "all you have to do is spam (insert the word zergling, hydralisk, or mutalisk here)s". People's issues with Starcraft 2 will be the EXACT SAME and will have very little to do about MBS or Automine. David Sirlin was complaining about Blizzard keeping the game mechanically difficult compared to the old one even with MBS and Automine, I doubt the two features swayed him in any way (Which is extremely odd considering he played Super Turbo, one of the more mechanically difficult fighting games... then again, he played only mechanically easy characters). When Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix came out I saw posts various sites calling it a terrible game that can only be enjoyed by "pros"... not because of the difficulty of the moves or combos or anything of that nature.. but because the poster claimed that "CAPCOM DISABLED BLOCKING ONLINE" or "You only have to spam one move". or other nonsense. These people raging about stuff that's not even in the game and won't ever be. I bet you reviews will talk about people spamming zerglings in multiplayer and they won't even NOTICE the UI. It´s about improving the game. The 3 examples you bring up don´t have MBS because they don´t need it to interact with the Player well/it wouldn´t make sense. Is there really a aspect of balance involving difficult control in these ? Or ANY modern RTS? How about we take a gameplay aspect from Dune 2 that DIDN`T change? Resource aquisition on the field - even though there are variations even the supersimple economy from DoW2 has "vulnerable" resources. There are modifications shure (2 distinct "kinds" of resource for example) but the underlying concepts are the same. And they will stay unitl someone comes up with a definite better system. How about a aspect Starcraft itself changed? Signifikant differences in gameplay for different factions. (Technically even Dune 2 had already 3 "different" factions). Since SC actually different factions had become the norm, RTS can´t really get away with a mere palette swap. You could propably also count (free) online Multiplayer. The point is that elements evolve - the only way for Blizzard NOT to include MBS is if they come up with a BETTER option or everything other than the old way ends up being worse. Your own examples show how even MBS might not be the end all model. Why not NBS, No Building Selection, construction orders all over a direct interface component (C&C). No one would complain about SBS if there is only one Building anyway (DoW2)... | ||
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ZhenMiChan
Netherlands1181 Posts
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Standards increase over time. The argument is simple: games set standards by which later games are judged. Doom set a standard which was then upped by hexen, heretic, wolfenstein, later doom games, quake and so on. No one would dare remake doom 1 as an A-class release today, not because it wasn't good during its time, but because subsequent games took the 'good' parts of the game and added more sequentially. I really don't think so. Command & Conquer 3, Warhammer 40k, and Company of Heroes do NOT have MBS, and people love those games. These are all very, very bad examples of what you're trying to say. All of these games have very, very streamlined UIs which do even more than MBS does (permanent automation of unit building to literally keep you at 0 cash for one.), so saying they were favorites is pretty much the cherry on top of what FA was saying. | ||
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ExileStrife
United States170 Posts
What I don't like is the new reinforcement concept. I've seen arguments made about it removing the advantage from the defender which are quite valid in my opinion. On top of that, it trivializes your supply lines and rally points. No longer will a pair of lurkers out in the middle of the map make a terran hesitant to send their mnm's across the map to reinforce while unattended, since now you have safe passage to rejoin the fight. This, combined with the no-defense-advantage, seems like prime ingredients for many, many single fight games. Once someone goes on the offense and takes a minor advantage, what is there to keep him from losing it now? | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5422 Posts
As for Nydus Worms, last I heard they still have a short animation before they start to unload their units (which they do one by one), so I'm sure it'll be possible to counter those in some capacity (in the middle of a battle) too. Imagine a Zerg loads up 40 Zerglings only to have the Nydus Worm blown apart by three Siege Tank blasts when the Terran sees it pop up? That all said, they will still have their uses, but I don't really see the game being "one continuos battle" like many of you believe. Remember that there is a cost associated with these mechanics, so you do trade-off having more units to use them. EDIT: For reference: http://www.starcraftcz.com/game-info-exklusive-qa For emphasis: 4) How complicated will it be to destroy Nydus Worm while moving? In the current build, Nydus Worms are able to be seen while traversing the terrain. You do not need a detector to be able to see it traveling. So the Nydus Worms don't really "remove" rally points. 6) Does the Drop-pod's falling hurt units/buildings in place of falling? The Drop Pods ability has been removed from the Ghost in multiplayer. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On March 04 2009 05:00 SoleSteeler wrote: Phase Prisms can probably be fairly easily focus fired in the right situations, too. Not really. It'd be easy to keep a phase prism safe behind your army while warping in units, it's not as if they need to be anywhere near the range of your enemy's units to do their job. Same thing applies to proxy pylons, really, any player with good multitasking could have one constantly up. It's practically zero-risk, losing a pylon every so often is insignificant compared to the advantage you get from faster reinforcements and it's easy to set one up while the enemy is preoccupied with your units. Or even have a back-up one in some other area. | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
Phase prisms also could some potential for offensive cannons? You would skip the pylon build-time and instantly start cannons while simultaneously reinforcing it if you have a full set of warp gates ready. | ||
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
On March 02 2009 17:58 rushz0rz wrote: Show this to Blizzard. Please | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
Well about the ZvZ discussion concerning roaches, I was thinking a bit.. According to http://www.sc2armory.com/game/zerg/units/roach/ the Roach only seems to be able to attack ground units: Needle Spines Damage: 8 Range: 3 Speed: Normal Targets: Ground Bonus: +8 vs Biological If this is the case, mutalisks should be a direct counter to them, much like they are today vs zerglings. So if you never get mutalisks, but just continue to pump roaches, you will loose to higher-tech/mutalisks. The same happens in ZvZ now, if you tech too late you will loose to mutalisks becaue zerglings won't do enough damage at some point. Look at this match for a perfect example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAhWyvXgVBA...re=channel_page Edit: Great interview/discussion btw. These are great for community and I think also Blizzard appreciates this | ||
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
On March 04 2009 21:12 lokiM wrote: ^ roaches aren't like zerglings at all, so your point doesn't make any sense. Mutas won't be able to kill a group of roaches before all your drones are dead. Thats like saying in TvT you get wraiths vs mass vultures, the vultures will just kill your economy. That's 1 of the reasons you see vults vs vults in TvT nowadays. Roaches may not be like Zerglings, but they are not like Vultures either. They are slow, making them vulnerable to fast Mutalisks. | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
I don't know though.. but I doubt ZvZ will be roach-only battles. If anything, the roach may be a fresh unit possiblity to go instead of zergling into muta (how it is now). I fear that the muta may become dominant in ZvZ, but let's hope the roach can be a viable option too? Just not too viable. There needs to be a nice unit balance. | ||
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Scamp
United States1086 Posts
Starcraft 2 should be put to a higher standard because of the amount of knowledge we have on SC to use as a basis, but anything seriously overpowered will most likely get patched. Not that I'd support Blizzard just throwing the game out there and just trying to patch all the problems later, it's just something to keep in mind. I don't like seeing people arguing that something is broken when the game isn't even close to being out yet. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5555 Posts
On March 04 2009 06:55 armed_ wrote: Not really. It'd be easy to keep a phase prism safe behind your army while warping in units, it's not as if they need to be anywhere near the range of your enemy's units to do their job. It can be easily fixed by making the Phase Prism -> Pylon change permanent or take (much) moretime. Same thing applies to proxy pylons, really, any player with good multitasking could have one constantly up. It's practically zero-risk, losing a pylon every so often is insignificant compared to the advantage you get from faster reinforcements and it's easy to set one up while the enemy is preoccupied with your units. Or even have a back-up one in some other area. Well, being able to hunt them down would then become a valid skill, just as hunting down Ovies with Cors is. ;] | ||
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
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CowGoMoo
United States428 Posts
I think they need to keep up to date with SC2 more and have all their ducks in a row before posting a video discussion all over the web =/ I could be mistaken though, but I'm pretty certain drop pods were not put back into the game. As to the Muta discussion, I don't think they will be that big of an issue. New unit pathing makes it impossible to "pick off" Marines in SC2. Units move as a super tight clump so Muta micro, even if possible using an insanely large stack, won't be as useful as it was in SC. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On March 05 2009 03:07 maybenexttime wrote: It can be easily fixed by making the Phase Prism -> Pylon change permanent or take (much) moretime. Why would you want to "fix" it? It's a perfectly good mechanic. -_- On March 05 2009 03:07 maybenexttime wrote: Well, being able to hunt them down would then become a valid skill, just as hunting down Ovies with Cors is. ;] Completely different thing. When an ovie is being picked off it's completely defenseless and nowhere near the zerg's army. A protoss player is obviously only going to set up proxy pylons once he's moving out with his army, and if the other player can manage to kill off a pylon that has units constantly appearing next to it and is right next to the protoss' army as it tries to exert map control/pressure and he doesn't suffer significant losses(which doesn't take a lot considering all he's doing is raising the time it takes to reinforce, not as if production in general is slowed down) killing that pylon, then the protoss probably had no chance anyway. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Why would you want to "fix" it? It's a perfectly good mechanic. -_- Personally I would be a little annoyed if every game as P you were more or less required to have a phase prism hovering above your army so you can get instant reinforcements >_< I *loooooove* warp-in, and I love the phase prism -> pylon transformation, I just hope it will be a bit more strategy involved in deciding where to deploy, rather than a constant mini-arcade game of transforming the prism back and forth. In the past, the Mothership used to have an aura you could warp-in to, and I was really worried about this then. The warp prism, due to needing a transform everytime you want to use it, is not as likely to have this problem but it's not completely silly to worry about it. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On March 05 2009 06:39 FrozenArbiter wrote: Personally I would be a little annoyed if every game as P you were more or less required to have a phase prism hovering above your army so you can get instant reinforcements >_< If SC2 has any semblance of balance, you will have to make constant use of warp-in for instant reinforcements. If the unit strengths were balanced for the Protoss army to be able to manage without it, then there would be an obvious imbalance once players start to use it. Furthermore, even if those proposed phase prism nerfs were implemented(which they shouldn't be for a purely personal dislike), there's still the issue of how easy it is to set up proxy pylons. Complaining that constant use of warp-in lacks strategy is like complaining that someone playing late-game TvZ needs to produce out of a lot of buildings or that Zerg has to get defilers late-game against Terran or that spider mines are necessary in TvP. Anything that gives a significant advantage is going to become a necessary part of the metagame; if a player can choose to forego something like that and still win then there must be a huge imbalance in their favour. The fact that all these things are necessary doesn't mean that there's no strategy involved, they merely set the stage on which the strategy takes place. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I don't want constant warp-in to where my army is. This removes the need for screen changing (big) AND it removes the "defenders advantage" as your units will not have to walk *at all*. There's more debate about this (with IdrA, me, Maybenexttime.. some others too probably) in one of the closed threads, but I can't remember the name of it right now. So just to be clear: I want warp-in. I want constant warp-in (ie I want warp-in to be so good that it replaces regular building in almost all cases). But I want the locations you can warp-in to be at least somewhat limited - which they are not when a phase-prism can instantly transform between its pylon and shuttle modes. So.... Warp-in to wherever your army is = bad. Warp-in to wherever you have pylon power = good. IMO. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
Either way, i agree with you that Pylons and phase prism are a little too much, maybe the time for it to transform into a pylon should be greater, or the transformation permanent. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On March 05 2009 07:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:So.... Warp-in to wherever your army is = bad. Warp-in to wherever you have pylon power = good. IMO. The thing is it's very easy to have pylon power wherever your army is even if you're just building pylons. They're not expensive, you have to build them anyway, and the fact that you're moving your army out of your base at all means that you can exert enough map control that they won't be easily picked off. You act as if making the phase prism worse will force players to only warp-in units at certain strategic locations where they have a pylon when really they could easily have a pylon at whatever important location their army is at. | ||
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StrikerX22
United States41 Posts
On March 05 2009 07:44 FrozenArbiter wrote: I don't want constant warp-in to where my army is. This removes the need for screen changing (big) AND it removes the "defenders advantage" as your units will not have to walk *at all*. There's more debate about this (with IdrA, me, Maybenexttime.. some others too probably) in one of the closed threads, but I can't remember the name of it right now. So just to be clear: I want warp-in. I want constant warp-in (ie I want warp-in to be so good that it replaces regular building in almost all cases). But I want the locations you can warp-in to be at least somewhat limited - which they are not when a phase-prism can instantly transform between its pylon and shuttle modes. So.... Warp-in to wherever your army is = bad. Warp-in to wherever you have pylon power = good. IMO. This is the major alarm firing in my head as to what didn't get addressed enough in the vids. Otherwise, I thought the videos were pretty great in addressing some major issues, including some I hadn't thought of. This should definitely get to Blizzard. Has anyone posted it in the SC2 forums by any chance already? If not, I will do so. I'd rather have sc2 more balanced etc before several years of patching =P, not to mention to avoid scaring away pro gamers. Youtube note: I also just wanna point out to people that have problems playing youtube videos... please, give it a 2nd or 3rd try, maybe going to the site itself, because youtube often says the vid isn't available even when you just press 'back' in your browser.... it's pretty pathetic. Refreshing then normally works. also having too many videos open in tabs (or maybe tabs in general if more) will sometimes cause similar issues. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 05 2009 08:18 armed_ wrote: The thing is it's very easy to have pylon power wherever your army is even if you're just building pylons. They're not expensive, you have to build them anyway, and the fact that you're moving your army out of your base at all means that you can exert enough map control that they won't be easily picked off. You act as if making the phase prism worse will force players to only warp-in units at certain strategic locations where they have a pylon when really they could easily have a pylon at whatever important location their army is at. Except those pylons can't follow your army as it moves and so you have to make new ones... Much prefer having a network of pylons all around the map than a single warp prism chasing your army -.- | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5422 Posts
Maybe they'll balance warp-in by doing something somewhat similar — having units that are warping in die instantly if attacked or something. Remember that there is also a short animation for a unit warping in. That way you could still do it behind your army, but it may not be quite as powerful as it could be now. Warping in 12 Zealots behind their army could be quite ... powerful, and I'm sure there are tons of other things that could be done. Of course, making them die instantly could be pretty harsh — maybe have them have half or a quarter life when warping in. Numbers can be tweaked, it's the idea that counts for now! I'd also like to point out that a player might not be inclined to warp-in units if they're losing a battle, since they might be wasted. And that even if you think warping in some units could turn the tide in your favour, you don't always know for certain. There will be some thinking involved in some cases, it won't always be the best idea to warp-in in the middle of a battle. At least, I hope. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On March 05 2009 08:34 FrozenArbiter wrote: Except those pylons can't follow your army as it moves and so you have to make new ones... Much prefer having a network of pylons all around the map than a single warp prism chasing your army -.- That does make sense.. maybe warp prism's should be able to power buildings, but shouldnt be able to allow warp ins.. that would make it abit more balanced.. If an opponent sees your army with 2 probes following, they can realize that warp ins will be coming if a pylon is built, and might lead to sniping those probes so you cant warp in, making your army not be able to restock itself as easily.. Only thing is, the idea of a fast warp prism tech with a warp in in someones base does sound cool, but I can see how it might be imbalanced in the longrun. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Of course, making them die instantly could be pretty harsh — maybe have them have half or a quarter life when warping in. Numbers can be tweaked, it's the idea that counts for now! I think they already take a looot more damage while warping in than normal, although I'm not 100% sure Anyway, I agree that it's not 100% going to be a problem, but it could be. | ||
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Piste
6177 Posts
And lol again whining about protoss ^^ | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On March 05 2009 10:04 FrozenArbiter wrote: A much more subtle fix would be to have the pylon-> prism transformation (but not the prism -> pylon) take some time (say 10 seconds or 20 seconds or whatever). I think they already take a looot more damage while warping in than normal, although I'm not 100% sure By "take a lot more damage" do you mean they are more durable or that incoming damage is increased? I think I read somewhere (just looked through blue posts for 10 minutes and couldn't find it >.< ) that a unit is warped in like buildings, although much faster. A unit caught in the first second would die very very quickly if this is true. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5422 Posts
On March 05 2009 12:19 Tsagacity wrote: By "take a lot more damage" do you mean they are more durable or that incoming damage is increased? I think I read somewhere (just looked through blue posts for 10 minutes and couldn't find it >.< ) that a unit is warped in like buildings, although much faster. A unit caught in the first second would die very very quickly if this is true. Ahhh I think that's how it is yeah, so like they appear with 1 HP and then it fills up to its max. I guess that's a pretty good counter measure. It really is difficult to say for sure what'll happen until the alpha/beta is out. | ||
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wtfhi2u
United States65 Posts
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On March 05 2009 08:34 FrozenArbiter wrote: Except those pylons can't follow your army as it moves and so you have to make new ones... Much prefer having a network of pylons all around the map than a single warp prism chasing your army -.- You hardly need a "network", one or two would suffice granted you understand the match-up and how the major battles will take place. But yeah, I'm really stretching it here. ;P As for the problem of the defender losing the advantage they normally have due to reinforcement times, firstly it still applies in early-game before warp-in tech has come into play(and it could potentially be moved further back the tech tree if games turn out too short), and secondly there are plenty of other ways to give the defender a slight advantage if need be. It's not as if the game needs to work just like BW does. | ||
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Knut_Are
Norway2 Posts
i wonder if those stats are even close to the real stats. 250 hp, slow, with a fast attack speed of 6x2 range 6? 100 m, 2 supply. a bit unsure about the attack, is it a regular attack or the razor swarm ability? to effectively take out roaches you can use banelings+ hydralisks with speed upgrade. and focus fire. hydralisks outrange both mutalisks and roaches with 2x. banelings exsplode in a range of 2, with instant damage. roaches got a range of 3. roaches are also slower then banelings. but all in all, things will change greatly once the beta comes out. roach vs roach battle only is unlikely. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
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L0thar
987 Posts
On March 05 2009 08:50 SoleSteeler wrote: Even if warp-in ends up being as we say it will, continuous reinforcements, at least it's somewhat unique to Protoss in that it's essentially risk-free. Because with the Nydus Worms, as I said on the previous page, they have a short animation spawn, so a second of focus firing from your oppoent and you've just lost, potentially, a fuck load of units. Maybe they'll balance warp-in by doing something somewhat similar — having units that are warping in die instantly if attacked or something. Remember that there is also a short animation for a unit warping in. That way you could still do it behind your army, but it may not be quite as powerful as it could be now. Warping in 12 Zealots behind their army could be quite ... powerful, and I'm sure there are tons of other things that could be done. Of course, making them die instantly could be pretty harsh — maybe have them have half or a quarter life when warping in. Numbers can be tweaked, it's the idea that counts for now! I'd also like to point out that a player might not be inclined to warp-in units if they're losing a battle, since they might be wasted. And that even if you think warping in some units could turn the tide in your favour, you don't always know for certain. There will be some thinking involved in some cases, it won't always be the best idea to warp-in in the middle of a battle. At least, I hope. I don't think this is correct - that you lose bunch of units with the destruction of single Nydus Worm. You must lose ALL your deploted Nydus Worms and the prerequisite building as well (because it's a Nydus entrance too) to lose your units. It's basically risk-free like warp-in, maybe even more. What pisses me off about warp-in is that if you manage to destroy the pylon or phase prism while the unit are warping, they are simply cancelled and the protoss player will get his money back. That's just absurd, compare it to losing medivac full of units... | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5422 Posts
We need the beta now so we can stop theorizing about everything! | ||
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xxbluejay21
United States94 Posts
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Retsukage
United States1002 Posts
On March 07 2009 15:25 xxbluejay21 wrote: THATS AMAZING I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE 40 MUTAS LOLOL THAT WOULD BE EPIC PWN 100 MUTAS TAKING OUT 1 CC AT A TIME xD HAHA THATS RIDICULOUS really? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 07 2009 15:25 xxbluejay21 wrote: THATS AMAZING I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE 40 MUTAS LOLOL THAT WOULD BE EPIC PWN 100 MUTAS TAKING OUT 1 CC AT A TIME xD HAHA THATS RIDICULOUS What the hell is this -.-? Don't randomly make all caps posts. Seriously. | ||
LosingID8
CA10828 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5422 Posts
obviously by the time a zerg got 40 mutas you'd have irradiate out already but i'm more worried about the possible effects of having about 15-20 stacked mutas. 11 is already extremely tough to defend against if they have good control, and i feel that this would make strats like 2hatch muta all-in extremely powerful. Not sure if you're talking about SC1 or 2 (I'd assume 2?) but there's no Irradiate in SC2. | ||
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LosingID8
CA10828 Posts
On March 09 2009 09:44 SoleSteeler wrote: Not sure if you're talking about SC1 or 2 (I'd assume 2?) but there's no Irradiate in SC2. i don't keep up with starcraft 2 at all, but the general idea is still the same. some sort of splash/aoe damage attack/spell that would come out at a fairly early point in the game. | ||
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18zotbob
45 Posts
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
As for protoss, well poor them (haha at lack of sairs) but someone trying 40muta stack would probably get timing pushed before that kind of numbers is possible. (or they can just make phoenix good against muta whatever) | ||
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Knut_Are
Norway2 Posts
still with smart cast you might seriously damage those muta stacks with a group of templars. also base ranged units got 6 range in sc2, compared to 4 in sc1. while mutas still only got 3 range. There best unit vs mutas are carriers if you are attacking as a protoss player. if i were to worry about something for zerg when playing the other races, it would have to be the spammable queen. it costs very little for its combat prowess when your early in the game. The queen is tough, heavy damage, but awefully slow for its cost. the unit is like another type of base defence that moves slowly and has useful spells. This means that a zerg player can easily exspand and move those games more into a macro game. But it also means that zerg can do very letal timing pushes, and are very hard to rush. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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xxbluejay21
United States94 Posts
On March 09 2009 08:46 FrozenArbiter wrote: What the hell is this -.-? Don't randomly make all caps posts. Seriously. my b | ||
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