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Sweden33723 Posts
That is not what I said, maybe I wasn't clear.
I don't want constant warp-in to where my army is. This removes the need for screen changing (big) AND it removes the "defenders advantage" as your units will not have to walk *at all*.
There's more debate about this (with IdrA, me, Maybenexttime.. some others too probably) in one of the closed threads, but I can't remember the name of it right now.
So just to be clear: I want warp-in. I want constant warp-in (ie I want warp-in to be so good that it replaces regular building in almost all cases).
But I want the locations you can warp-in to be at least somewhat limited - which they are not when a phase-prism can instantly transform between its pylon and shuttle modes.
So.... Warp-in to wherever your army is = bad. Warp-in to wherever you have pylon power = good.
IMO.
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Well, i guess the counter is that you can kill the phase-prism faster than the pylon (or so I think)
Either way, i agree with you that Pylons and phase prism are a little too much, maybe the time for it to transform into a pylon should be greater, or the transformation permanent.
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On March 05 2009 07:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:So.... Warp-in to wherever your army is = bad. Warp-in to wherever you have pylon power = good. IMO.
The thing is it's very easy to have pylon power wherever your army is even if you're just building pylons. They're not expensive, you have to build them anyway, and the fact that you're moving your army out of your base at all means that you can exert enough map control that they won't be easily picked off. You act as if making the phase prism worse will force players to only warp-in units at certain strategic locations where they have a pylon when really they could easily have a pylon at whatever important location their army is at.
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On March 05 2009 07:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I don't want constant warp-in to where my army is. This removes the need for screen changing (big) AND it removes the "defenders advantage" as your units will not have to walk *at all*.
There's more debate about this (with IdrA, me, Maybenexttime.. some others too probably) in one of the closed threads, but I can't remember the name of it right now.
So just to be clear: I want warp-in. I want constant warp-in (ie I want warp-in to be so good that it replaces regular building in almost all cases).
But I want the locations you can warp-in to be at least somewhat limited - which they are not when a phase-prism can instantly transform between its pylon and shuttle modes.
So.... Warp-in to wherever your army is = bad. Warp-in to wherever you have pylon power = good.
IMO.
This is the major alarm firing in my head as to what didn't get addressed enough in the vids. Otherwise, I thought the videos were pretty great in addressing some major issues, including some I hadn't thought of. This should definitely get to Blizzard. Has anyone posted it in the SC2 forums by any chance already? If not, I will do so. I'd rather have sc2 more balanced etc before several years of patching =P, not to mention to avoid scaring away pro gamers.
Youtube note:
I also just wanna point out to people that have problems playing youtube videos... please, give it a 2nd or 3rd try, maybe going to the site itself, because youtube often says the vid isn't available even when you just press 'back' in your browser.... it's pretty pathetic. Refreshing then normally works. also having too many videos open in tabs (or maybe tabs in general if more) will sometimes cause similar issues.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On March 05 2009 08:18 armed_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 07:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:So.... Warp-in to wherever your army is = bad. Warp-in to wherever you have pylon power = good. IMO. The thing is it's very easy to have pylon power wherever your army is even if you're just building pylons. They're not expensive, you have to build them anyway, and the fact that you're moving your army out of your base at all means that you can exert enough map control that they won't be easily picked off. You act as if making the phase prism worse will force players to only warp-in units at certain strategic locations where they have a pylon when really they could easily have a pylon at whatever important location their army is at.
Except those pylons can't follow your army as it moves and so you have to make new ones...
Much prefer having a network of pylons all around the map than a single warp prism chasing your army -.-
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Even if warp-in ends up being as we say it will, continuous reinforcements, at least it's somewhat unique to Protoss in that it's essentially risk-free. Because with the Nydus Worms, as I said on the previous page, they have a short animation spawn, so a second of focus firing from your oppoent and you've just lost, potentially, a fuck load of units.
Maybe they'll balance warp-in by doing something somewhat similar — having units that are warping in die instantly if attacked or something. Remember that there is also a short animation for a unit warping in. That way you could still do it behind your army, but it may not be quite as powerful as it could be now. Warping in 12 Zealots behind their army could be quite ... powerful, and I'm sure there are tons of other things that could be done.
Of course, making them die instantly could be pretty harsh — maybe have them have half or a quarter life when warping in. Numbers can be tweaked, it's the idea that counts for now!
I'd also like to point out that a player might not be inclined to warp-in units if they're losing a battle, since they might be wasted. And that even if you think warping in some units could turn the tide in your favour, you don't always know for certain. There will be some thinking involved in some cases, it won't always be the best idea to warp-in in the middle of a battle.
At least, I hope.
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On March 05 2009 08:34 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 08:18 armed_ wrote:On March 05 2009 07:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:So.... Warp-in to wherever your army is = bad. Warp-in to wherever you have pylon power = good. IMO. The thing is it's very easy to have pylon power wherever your army is even if you're just building pylons. They're not expensive, you have to build them anyway, and the fact that you're moving your army out of your base at all means that you can exert enough map control that they won't be easily picked off. You act as if making the phase prism worse will force players to only warp-in units at certain strategic locations where they have a pylon when really they could easily have a pylon at whatever important location their army is at. Except those pylons can't follow your army as it moves and so you have to make new ones... Much prefer having a network of pylons all around the map than a single warp prism chasing your army -.-
That does make sense.. maybe warp prism's should be able to power buildings, but shouldnt be able to allow warp ins.. that would make it abit more balanced..
If an opponent sees your army with 2 probes following, they can realize that warp ins will be coming if a pylon is built, and might lead to sniping those probes so you cant warp in, making your army not be able to restock itself as easily..
Only thing is, the idea of a fast warp prism tech with a warp in in someones base does sound cool, but I can see how it might be imbalanced in the longrun.
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Sweden33723 Posts
A much more subtle fix would be to have the pylon-> prism transformation (but not the prism -> pylon) take some time (say 10 seconds or 20 seconds or whatever).
Of course, making them die instantly could be pretty harsh — maybe have them have half or a quarter life when warping in. Numbers can be tweaked, it's the idea that counts for now!
I think they already take a looot more damage while warping in than normal, although I'm not 100% sure 
Anyway, I agree that it's not 100% going to be a problem, but it could be.
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ty artosis, tho I would have liked to hear about bw and idra+korea more than about sc2. ^^
And lol again whining about protoss ^^
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On March 05 2009 10:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:A much more subtle fix would be to have the pylon-> prism transformation (but not the prism -> pylon) take some time (say 10 seconds or 20 seconds or whatever). Show nested quote +Of course, making them die instantly could be pretty harsh — maybe have them have half or a quarter life when warping in. Numbers can be tweaked, it's the idea that counts for now! I think they already take a looot more damage while warping in than normal, although I'm not 100% sure
By "take a lot more damage" do you mean they are more durable or that incoming damage is increased?
I think I read somewhere (just looked through blue posts for 10 minutes and couldn't find it >.< ) that a unit is warped in like buildings, although much faster. A unit caught in the first second would die very very quickly if this is true.
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On March 05 2009 12:19 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 10:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:A much more subtle fix would be to have the pylon-> prism transformation (but not the prism -> pylon) take some time (say 10 seconds or 20 seconds or whatever). Of course, making them die instantly could be pretty harsh — maybe have them have half or a quarter life when warping in. Numbers can be tweaked, it's the idea that counts for now! I think they already take a looot more damage while warping in than normal, although I'm not 100% sure By "take a lot more damage" do you mean they are more durable or that incoming damage is increased? I think I read somewhere (just looked through blue posts for 10 minutes and couldn't find it >.< ) that a unit is warped in like buildings, although much faster. A unit caught in the first second would die very very quickly if this is true.
Ahhh I think that's how it is yeah, so like they appear with 1 HP and then it fills up to its max.
I guess that's a pretty good counter measure. It really is difficult to say for sure what'll happen until the alpha/beta is out.
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On March 05 2009 08:34 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Except those pylons can't follow your army as it moves and so you have to make new ones...
Much prefer having a network of pylons all around the map than a single warp prism chasing your army -.-
You hardly need a "network", one or two would suffice granted you understand the match-up and how the major battles will take place.
But yeah, I'm really stretching it here. ;P
As for the problem of the defender losing the advantage they normally have due to reinforcement times, firstly it still applies in early-game before warp-in tech has come into play(and it could potentially be moved further back the tech tree if games turn out too short), and secondly there are plenty of other ways to give the defender a slight advantage if need be. It's not as if the game needs to work just like BW does.
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the queen looks intresting.
i wonder if those stats are even close to the real stats.
250 hp, slow, with a fast attack speed of 6x2 range 6?
100 m, 2 supply. a bit unsure about the attack, is it a regular attack or the razor swarm ability?
to effectively take out roaches you can use banelings+ hydralisks with speed upgrade. and focus fire. hydralisks outrange both mutalisks and roaches with 2x.
banelings exsplode in a range of 2, with instant damage. roaches got a range of 3.
roaches are also slower then banelings.
but all in all, things will change greatly once the beta comes out.
roach vs roach battle only is unlikely.
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Artosis confirms again that protoss is an easy race! :O
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On March 05 2009 08:50 SoleSteeler wrote:
Even if warp-in ends up being as we say it will, continuous reinforcements, at least it's somewhat unique to Protoss in that it's essentially risk-free. Because with the Nydus Worms, as I said on the previous page, they have a short animation spawn, so a second of focus firing from your oppoent and you've just lost, potentially, a fuck load of units.
Maybe they'll balance warp-in by doing something somewhat similar — having units that are warping in die instantly if attacked or something. Remember that there is also a short animation for a unit warping in. That way you could still do it behind your army, but it may not be quite as powerful as it could be now. Warping in 12 Zealots behind their army could be quite ... powerful, and I'm sure there are tons of other things that could be done.
Of course, making them die instantly could be pretty harsh — maybe have them have half or a quarter life when warping in. Numbers can be tweaked, it's the idea that counts for now!
I'd also like to point out that a player might not be inclined to warp-in units if they're losing a battle, since they might be wasted. And that even if you think warping in some units could turn the tide in your favour, you don't always know for certain. There will be some thinking involved in some cases, it won't always be the best idea to warp-in in the middle of a battle.
At least, I hope.
I don't think this is correct - that you lose bunch of units with the destruction of single Nydus Worm. You must lose ALL your deploted Nydus Worms and the prerequisite building as well (because it's a Nydus entrance too) to lose your units. It's basically risk-free like warp-in, maybe even more.
What pisses me off about warp-in is that if you manage to destroy the pylon or phase prism while the unit are warping, they are simply cancelled and the protoss player will get his money back. That's just absurd, compare it to losing medivac full of units...
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Yeah I just read up on it here. So I believe you're right. That's pretty lame. Very risk-free.
We need the beta now so we can stop theorizing about everything!
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THATS AMAZING I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE 40 MUTAS LOLOL THAT WOULD BE EPIC PWN 100 MUTAS TAKING OUT 1 CC AT A TIME xD HAHA THATS RIDICULOUS
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On March 07 2009 15:25 xxbluejay21 wrote:
THATS AMAZING I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE 40 MUTAS LOLOL THAT WOULD BE EPIC PWN 100 MUTAS TAKING OUT 1 CC AT A TIME xD HAHA THATS RIDICULOUS
really?
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Sweden33723 Posts
On March 07 2009 15:25 xxbluejay21 wrote:
THATS AMAZING I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE 40 MUTAS LOLOL THAT WOULD BE EPIC PWN 100 MUTAS TAKING OUT 1 CC AT A TIME xD HAHA THATS RIDICULOUS
What the hell is this -.-? Don't randomly make all caps posts. Seriously.
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EPT
