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On March 03 2009 07:13 littlechava wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2009 05:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:On March 03 2009 05:14 PH wrote:
I totally agree with what IdrA said at the end...MBS+Automine are problems Blizz could have and should have not run into in the first place. I'm sorry but not adding MBS would have created just as big of a problem, just not with the same people. Probably bigger (in terms of hurt sales). why? craploads of people still bought the original sc without them Show nested quote +On March 03 2009 00:22 SoleSteeler wrote:
and I don't really see stacking 40 mutas at once to be a huge problem. I fully agree that there needs to be a solid counter to mutas (or just clumped air units in general). However, it obviously costs a LOT to be able to get that many, so it should be somewhat powerful. Also, if it was so game breaking, wouldn't Zergs be doing something similar now? Say, 3 hotkeys of mutas. Sure it takes a bit more control than it would in SC2, but it should still be "as powerful" and I'm sure people have tried it. Yet you don't really see that.
seriously? no, 3 groups of mutas being controlled at the same time cant be compared to controlling one group of 40 mutas. 3 groups of mutas would be impossible to control in unison.
First of all, people have different expectations these days.
Secondly, imagine using Warp-in without MBS - that'd be a CHORE. They'd have to resort to some artificial restrictions like one building per hotkey or something, and that's never good.
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On March 03 2009 07:31 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2009 07:13 littlechava wrote:On March 03 2009 05:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:On March 03 2009 05:14 PH wrote:
I totally agree with what IdrA said at the end...MBS+Automine are problems Blizz could have and should have not run into in the first place. I'm sorry but not adding MBS would have created just as big of a problem, just not with the same people. Probably bigger (in terms of hurt sales). why? craploads of people still bought the original sc without them On March 03 2009 00:22 SoleSteeler wrote:
and I don't really see stacking 40 mutas at once to be a huge problem. I fully agree that there needs to be a solid counter to mutas (or just clumped air units in general). However, it obviously costs a LOT to be able to get that many, so it should be somewhat powerful. Also, if it was so game breaking, wouldn't Zergs be doing something similar now? Say, 3 hotkeys of mutas. Sure it takes a bit more control than it would in SC2, but it should still be "as powerful" and I'm sure people have tried it. Yet you don't really see that.
seriously? no, 3 groups of mutas being controlled at the same time cant be compared to controlling one group of 40 mutas. 3 groups of mutas would be impossible to control in unison. First of all, people have different expectations these days. Secondly, imagine using Warp-in without MBS - that'd be a CHORE. They'd have to resort to some artificial restrictions like one building per hotkey or something, and that's never good.
Nah, just add a warpin rally point, have the units warp in on location after completing to build.
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very nice video 
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On March 03 2009 07:13 littlechava wrote:
seriously? no, 3 groups of mutas being controlled at the same time cant be compared to controlling one group of 40 mutas. 3 groups of mutas would be impossible to control in unison.
Yeah, after thinking about it some more you're probably right. It still costs a fuck load though to make 40 mutalisks. And if there is a proper air counter, the point is moot anyway.
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why? craploads of people still bought the original sc without them Craploads of people purchased dune 2 and doom 1. Doesn't mean we're going back to them to pull out mechanics and graphics when decades of history in game making have raised the standards.
Like seriously, would you go back to playing pong? Obviously not.
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On March 03 2009 03:31 lwstupidus wrote:
Artosis: Someone told me a long time ago, I asked Asem, why do you love this game so much?
Asem: Anyone can play it, it's not like pro basketball, if you're not tall, you can't play basketball. Anyone in the world can sit down and play Starcraft.
This has to be some sort of joke...?
Nate Robinson begs to differ
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I personally would like all the analogies to athletic sports to stop, but I know people will continue with them even though they are rarely accurate.
In this case, I'd argue almost anyone can play basketball. Even if they have no legs. It's not 100 percent necessary to be tall in order to play it at the highest level, but it's certainly a factor. Despite this, people still play it an enjoy it even if they're not at that level. Anyone can pick up a ball and play basketball.
Is there any way this can stop now?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 03 2009 10:44 epicdoom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2009 03:31 lwstupidus wrote:
Artosis: Someone told me a long time ago, I asked Asem, why do you love this game so much?
Asem: Anyone can play it, it's not like pro basketball, if you're not tall, you can't play basketball. Anyone in the world can sit down and play Starcraft.
This has to be some sort of joke...? Nate Robinson begs to differ
I played football against him  Tackled him and everything! He is a 1 man MONSTER
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While the mechanics improvements (i.e. drop pods/dark pylon, etc.) seem to be a step back to the right direction, the idea of a constantly reinforcing battle reminds me of Dawn of War, where your units(precisely, squads) could reinforce in the battlefield, which kept battles going for a long time. I suppose SC2's higher lethality will help mitigate that dullness, but it is something to consider.
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constant reinforcement sounds like empire earth to me..
i remember playing one game of it vs a computer and the game just would not end because units keep coming out of no where
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12 hours a day DAAAAMN crazy greg rofl
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the point of the size of control groups is huge. 40 mutas? lolol
also, is it just me, or has IdrA lost quite a bit of muscle mass since his Broodsport?
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On March 03 2009 10:04 L wrote: Craploads of people purchased dune 2 and doom 1. Doesn't mean we're going back to them to pull out mechanics and graphics when decades of history in game making have raised the standards. Like seriously, would you go back to playing pong? Obviously not.
Careful you're getting precariously close to the "Dune argument" banned in the SC2 forum guidelines 
UPDATE 2008/03/28
From now on, anyone using the "Dune argument" will be temp banned. No warnings, just banned.
For those of you unaware of what it is, here's an explanation:
The "Dune argument" is that if we are so worried about skill, and think MBS is so detrimental to this, why don't we revert back to the Dune UI, where you could only select one unit at a time.
You're probably okay since you're just using Dune as a reference and not the whole argument, but I would be careful with the word "Dune" when arguing about MBS
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On March 03 2009 10:04 L wrote: Craploads of people purchased dune 2 and doom 1. Doesn't mean we're going back to them to pull out mechanics and graphics when decades of history in game making have raised the standards.
Doom 1? Raised standards compared to it? I beg to differ, games have lowered standards.
Games that have strayed towards being more like Doom 1 have been some of the best FPSes of the past few years (Painkiller, Serious Sam).
Compare Crysis to Doom 1? Which is better. Look past the graphics and Doom 1 is clearly the superior, lack of mouselook or not.
But it's a terrible analogy anyway and completely irrelevant. Starcraft is not Doom nor is it Dune.
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Sweden33719 Posts
-_- Mechanics (the UI) and Graphics have certainly been raised significantly since the days of Dune and Doom, which was his point.
It seems you are all trying damned hard to misunderstand something that's quite simple. Regardless of wether MBS is a good thing or not, the fact of the matter is that NOT including it would have caused everybit as much of an outrage as its inclusion did, probably more.
Anyway, L's Dune example was appropriate, the Dune ban is more about avoiding the perpetual cycle of "omg go back to dune" vs "omg interactive movie".
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i think i read somewhere that rob pardo was against mbs and automine in star2
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On March 03 2009 22:57 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:
i think i read somewhere that rob pardo was against mbs and automine in star2
It would be nice to have a source for that. I have read this around the internet, but no one who claimed it has actually provided a source.
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yeah i rly want a source for that, thats just a vague memory in ma mind
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On March 03 2009 22:48 FrozenArbiter wrote:
-_- Mechanics (the UI) and Graphics have certainly been raised significantly since the days of Dune and Doom, which was his point.
It seems you are all trying damned hard to misunderstand something that's quite simple. Regardless of wether MBS is a good thing or not, the fact of the matter is that NOT including it would have caused everybit as much of an outrage as its inclusion did, probably more.
Anyway, L's Dune example was appropriate, the Dune ban is more about avoiding the perpetual cycle of "omg go back to dune" vs "omg interactive movie".
I really don't think so. Command & Conquer 3, Warhammer 40k, and Company of Heroes do NOT have MBS, and people love those games, ESPECIALLY the "omg starcraft is just a gay clickfest" demographic. It's not a clickfest to them because of the lack of automining or mbs, it's because of seeing people play BGH, how fast units die compared to other RTS, how someone microing a vulture can do what he does, how there's no smart cast/auto cast (which hasn't changed), etc. They don't realize the relevance of macro and the majority of them think that if someone has that many units they're probably "hacking". People are still going to think Starcraft 2 is a "gay clickfest" and they won't even NOTICE MBS and Automine. They hate starcraft because "all you have to do is spam (insert the word zergling, hydralisk, or mutalisk here)s". People's issues with Starcraft 2 will be the EXACT SAME and will have very little to do about MBS or Automine. David Sirlin was complaining about Blizzard keeping the game mechanically difficult compared to the old one even with MBS and Automine, I doubt the two features swayed him in any way (Which is extremely odd considering he played Super Turbo, one of the more mechanically difficult fighting games... then again, he played only mechanically easy characters).
When Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix came out I saw posts various sites calling it a terrible game that can only be enjoyed by "pros"... not because of the difficulty of the moves or combos or anything of that nature.. but because the poster claimed that "CAPCOM DISABLED BLOCKING ONLINE" or "You only have to spam one move". or other nonsense. These people raging about stuff that's not even in the game and won't ever be. I bet you reviews will talk about people spamming zerglings in multiplayer and they won't even NOTICE the UI.
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On March 04 2009 01:44 anotak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2009 22:48 FrozenArbiter wrote:
-_- Mechanics (the UI) and Graphics have certainly been raised significantly since the days of Dune and Doom, which was his point.
It seems you are all trying damned hard to misunderstand something that's quite simple. Regardless of wether MBS is a good thing or not, the fact of the matter is that NOT including it would have caused everybit as much of an outrage as its inclusion did, probably more.
Anyway, L's Dune example was appropriate, the Dune ban is more about avoiding the perpetual cycle of "omg go back to dune" vs "omg interactive movie". I really don't think so. Command & Conquer 3, Warhammer 40k, and Company of Heroes do NOT have MBS, and people love those games, ESPECIALLY the "omg starcraft is just a gay clickfest" demographic. It's not a clickfest to them because of the lack of automining or mbs, it's because of seeing people play BGH, how fast units die compared to other RTS, how someone microing a vulture can do what he does, how there's no smart cast/auto cast (which hasn't changed), etc. They don't realize the relevance of macro and the majority of them think that if someone has that many units they're probably "hacking". People are still going to think Starcraft 2 is a "gay clickfest" and they won't even NOTICE MBS and Automine. They hate starcraft because "all you have to do is spam (insert the word zergling, hydralisk, or mutalisk here)s". People's issues with Starcraft 2 will be the EXACT SAME and will have very little to do about MBS or Automine. David Sirlin was complaining about Blizzard keeping the game mechanically difficult compared to the old one even with MBS and Automine, I doubt the two features swayed him in any way (Which is extremely odd considering he played Super Turbo, one of the more mechanically difficult fighting games... then again, he played only mechanically easy characters). When Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix came out I saw posts various sites calling it a terrible game that can only be enjoyed by "pros"... not because of the difficulty of the moves or combos or anything of that nature.. but because the poster claimed that "CAPCOM DISABLED BLOCKING ONLINE" or "You only have to spam one move". or other nonsense. These people raging about stuff that's not even in the game and won't ever be. I bet you reviews will talk about people spamming zerglings in multiplayer and they won't even NOTICE the UI.
It´s about improving the game. The 3 examples you bring up don´t have MBS because they don´t need it to interact with the Player well/it wouldn´t make sense. Is there really a aspect of balance involving difficult control in these ? Or ANY modern RTS?
How about we take a gameplay aspect from Dune 2 that DIDN`T change? Resource aquisition on the field - even though there are variations even the supersimple economy from DoW2 has "vulnerable" resources.
There are modifications shure (2 distinct "kinds" of resource for example) but the underlying concepts are the same. And they will stay unitl someone comes up with a definite better system.
How about a aspect Starcraft itself changed? Signifikant differences in gameplay for different factions. (Technically even Dune 2 had already 3 "different" factions). Since SC actually different factions had become the norm, RTS can´t really get away with a mere palette swap. You could propably also count (free) online Multiplayer.
The point is that elements evolve - the only way for Blizzard NOT to include MBS is if they come up with a BETTER option or everything other than the old way ends up being worse.
Your own examples show how even MBS might not be the end all model. Why not NBS, No Building Selection, construction orders all over a direct interface component (C&C). No one would complain about SBS if there is only one Building anyway (DoW2)...
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